PDA

View Full Version : How much to expect


Liam Dougherty Springer
10-06-2008, 07:01 PM
How much muscle gain per week is normal for a program like SS when eating to gain?

I have seen some posts on this subject in the past I think by Steven Low but I can't find them. I have just started my program and have had a first week gain of about 4 pounds.

Some is deffinatly fat and some is deffinatly muscle and I figure some might just be food in my guts. I had already gained back my water weight durring the rest week before starting my program. I am deffinatly eating enough to gain 3000-3800kcal and the macro ratios have been good. I think I could clean up some carb sources next week but I am debating just eating a little less in general.

I do not mind gaining fat in order to maximize strength and muscle gain but I also don't want to waste my time and money on food that is un necessary.

Thanx in advance.

-Liam

Steven Low
10-06-2008, 08:07 PM
Play it by feel. There's really nothing set here. If you cut back 300-500 cals your body might be able to put on the same amount of strength and mass.. but maybe it won't. Genetics and recovery definitely interact with your nutrition so it's hard to make any true estimates.

If you wanna cut back slightly then go for it, but if you're not putting on as much mass and your lifts are feeling heavy quickly you need to go back up.

Patrick Donnelly
10-06-2008, 09:29 PM
Just eat. If you gain too much fat for your liking, take care of it later. When trying to gain weight, it's better to err on the side of too much.

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-07-2008, 07:07 AM
Alright I am gonna keep the feast going as is:) .

I shoulda known no one here would likely say "Eeeek your gonna get all fat if you eat that much." (lol)

I did find a little thing (not really an article) on maximum muscle gain in a week and it is from nutritionalsupplements.com so I don't know if it is good info. Does anyone know where the science behind this The scientifically calculated average of 1 pound of muscle gain per week MAXIMUM for anyone
here is the link to what I foundhttp://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/trainingT18.html

Steven Low
10-07-2008, 07:14 AM
Yeah, where's their proof? I don't see any studies or citations.

Kris Reeves
10-07-2008, 07:29 AM
Be careful on going too much overboard on the fat gain part (depending on your age)!!!

Not saying that you're doing the GOMAD but, as an over 30 male...I did the Gallon of Milk thing...building up from a half gallon to the whole gallon over a 14-16 week period. Net result...I got strong as shit, but became a fat bastard who had to buy new suits/slacks for work!

If you are young or can live your life in sweatpants...eat to your heart's content...but that was an expensive mistake for me. Admittedly, I did add some decent lean gains too, but I wouldn't do that again unless the timing was perfect.

Dan Heaney
10-07-2008, 07:48 AM
Alright I am gonna keep the feast going as is:) .

I shoulda known no one here would likely say "Eeeek your gonna get all fat if you eat that much." (lol)

I did find a little thing (not really an article) on maximum muscle gain in a week and it is from nutritionalsupplements.com so I don't know if it is good info. Does anyone know where the science behind this
here is the link to what I foundhttp://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/trainingT18.html

I have seen the 1-1.5lb/week a few times but as a guide to try and keep fat gain at a minimum but like Steven said I don't recall research backing it up.

Be careful on going too much overboard on the fat gain part (depending on your age)!!!

Not saying that you're doing the GOMAD but, as an over 30 male...I did the Gallon of Milk thing...building up from a half gallon to the whole gallon over a 14-16 week period. Net result...I got strong as shit, but became a fat bastard who had to buy new suits/slacks for work!

If you are young or can live your life in sweatpants...eat to your heart's content...but that was an expensive mistake for me. Admittedly, I did add some decent lean gains too, but I wouldn't do that again unless the timing was perfect.

What did you expect? Haha that what I would have expected. I bet you could have gotten strong as shit with smaller surplus of calories

Mike ODonnell
10-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Alright I am gonna keep the feast going as is:) .

I shoulda known no one here would likely say "Eeeek your gonna get all fat if you eat that much." (lol)

I did find a little thing (not really an article) on maximum muscle gain in a week and it is from nutritionalsupplements.com so I don't know if it is good info. Does anyone know where the science behind this
here is the link to what I foundhttp://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/trainingT18.html

Real muscle is hard to gain...be lucky at a true gain of 1-2lb a month consistently. Now glycogen loading and hypertrophy is a bit easier and can add up the total lbs much quicker. Of course with any glycogen loading program comes the chances for fat gain as unless you exactly know your spillover point from which glycogen goes from the muscle into fat cells, you will gain fat. Chances are your body is only hard wired for so much muscle too....so any new lifting plan will increase it, once you plateau you have to change things up with glycogen loading cycles and varied training protocols. All depends on your goals.

Kris Reeves
10-07-2008, 01:58 PM
What did you expect? Haha that what I would have expected. I bet you could have gotten strong as shit with smaller surplus of calories


Well, truth be told...I sort of expected it, but it was so hard to control since I was feeling so great in the gym! I just didn't want to stop! :)


I've dieted down to single digit bodyfat before and I figured I'd just gain and then diet down....however I forgot how freaking hard and how much dedication it is to actually do that!

Dan Heaney
10-07-2008, 02:45 PM
Well, truth be told...I sort of expected it, but it was so hard to control since I was feeling so great in the gym! I just didn't want to stop! :)

Which is where I am right now but instead of milk I'm eating ice cream


I've dieted down to single digit bodyfat before and (a) I figured I'd just gain and then diet down....however (b) I forgot how freaking hard and how much dedication it is to actually do that!

(a) I think the same thing and I bet I be thinking (b) too!:D

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-07-2008, 03:27 PM
Real muscle is hard to gain...be lucky at a true gain of 1-2lb a month consistently. Now glycogen loading and hypertrophy is a bit easier and can add up the total lbs much quicker. Of course with any glycogen loading program comes the chances for fat gain as unless you exactly know your spillover point from which glycogen goes from the muscle into fat cells, you will gain fat. Chances are your body is only hard wired for so much muscle too....so any new lifting plan will increase it, once you plateau you have to change things up with glycogen loading cycles and varied training protocols. All depends on your goals.

MOD I have seen you post a few times on adding 10 rep sets post strength sets for added hypertrophy. At first I am like... yeah I'll do that then I check my motives.... like you said what are my goals... GET STRONG! period. The Mass gain I am undergoing is honestly to fascilitate just that right now. I fear I will be over training if I add hypertrophy sets and right now I don't want to neglect strength work. What do you think?

My plan is to do this 6 week strength intensive progressive loading cycle of primaraly sets of 5 and below all compund movements with a little explosive and sprinting type stuff one day a week. Then take a week off find my 1rep max for the PM Mass Gain templet and expect a bit more hypertrophy and have the advantage of my new strength to boost my progress. Finaly as I taper off the food I will use a MEBB template to begin getting back into metcon while retaining my new strength and do some carb cycleing to lean out.

OK that was probrably more than you wanted to know but... Anyone have thoughts opinions suggestions or criticism?

Yeah, where's their proof? I don't see any studies or citations.

I know bogus. Honestly it has me interested though which is only anoying so far I will keep looking for legit sources.

Mike ODonnell
10-07-2008, 03:36 PM
MOD I have seen you post a few times on adding 10 rep sets post strength sets for added hypertrophy. At first I am like... yeah I'll do that then I check my motives.... like you said what are my goals... GET STRONG! period. The Mass gain I am undergoing is honestly to fascilitate just that right now. I fear I will be over training if I add hypertrophy sets and right now I don't want to neglect strength work. What do you think?

Highly doubt a few 2x10s are going to overtrain you unless you go to failure. Strength is more CNS responsive than glycolitic, but you can deplete muscle glycogen and prime for reloading and growth (of course best used 1-2x a week). Can't hurt as it's not the main focus and also the bigger you are, the stronger you will get. Everyone does it....even the boys at Westside.

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-07-2008, 03:40 PM
Highly doubt a few 2x10s are going to overtrain you unless you go to failure. Strength is more CNS responsive than glycolitic, but you can deplete muscle glycogen and prime for reloading and growth (of course best used 1-2x a week). Can't hurt as it's not the main focus and also the bigger you are, the stronger you will get. Everyone does it....even the boys at Westside.

It will be done.:cool:

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-07-2008, 03:52 PM
Mike I was thinking....

....is it necesary for me to be carb cycleing for this to help because I am realy doing the carbs on training days Fat on rest days thing? Will the 2x10s still do their job?

Should I do something like 2x10 of 2 compound movements one lower one upper 2x aweek and alternate the movements?

FS/SP

BS/Weighted chin ups

Halting Deadlift/Weighted Dips

C&J and or Snatch

Mike ODonnell
10-07-2008, 04:28 PM
You could do a carb up once a week if you want to give it a shot....or every workout (which would have to be smaller meals and I wouldn't advise as I think you get more bang for the buck with 1-2 loads, like a body opus approach, as you can still keep lean). However I would watch how often and how much you do....as you can lower sensitivity if done too much every week. Strength reps can be done on almost ketogenic diets.

Play around...see what happens. Best case you learn something more about how you respond to different protocols and eating....worst case you take no action and learn nothing. There are many ways to get strong and size.....and none of them start with "more research". You have a good base of knowledge, now time to apply and adjust....you may discover your own way that works.

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-07-2008, 05:34 PM
Mike that is the inevitable conclusion every time try it and if it dosen't work change it.:)

Right now I am eating alot of carbs and usualy I eat almost none.... I am gaining a noticable amount of fat..... I was honestly epecting that but I think I am going to switch it up and cycle.

Once on my heaviest strength day, tues. DL every other week and thur. BS on off weeks, and again On my highest rep day Sat. I will do some Oly form work one heavy lift and a full body hypetrophy focus at the end before my carb up. the carbs on other days I will keep at around 10% calories and do a little fruit in the morning and banana PWO if its not a rest day.

I have also only been IFing 18hr. once a week and I miss it I am gonna throw in another whenever I only have 48 hrs between carb days. I'll see if I like that any better.

I guess I will keep calories close to where they are for now by upping the fat and some extra protein hit like 1.5g/#.

Thanx everyone we will see what happens next.

Mike ODonnell
10-08-2008, 06:56 AM
Mike that is the inevitable conclusion every time try it and if it dosen't work change it.:)

Right now I am eating alot of carbs and usualy I eat almost none.... I am gaining a noticable amount of fat..... I was honestly expecting that but I think I am going to switch it up and cycle.

Sure...change is good right? Otherwise you would already have results and not need advice. ;)

How many carb ups are you doing? How are you getting your carbs? (all in one sitting?). Usually 1-2 carb ups a week is best. Best approach too is spreading the carbs out.....multiple meals, slower absorption. Fat = Carb spillover from muscle which could mean either it's not as depleted as you think (too many carbs).....or you are putting too many carbs in at once. You can start with higher GI based carbs right after and then start getting into more slower ones. That and watch fruit intake....as once your liver glycogen is full excess fructose is going to end up in fat.

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-08-2008, 11:21 AM
How many carb ups are you doing? How are you getting your carbs? (all in one sitting?). Usually 1-2 carb ups a week is best. Best approach too is spreading the carbs out.....multiple meals, slower absorption. Fat = Carb spillover from muscle which could mean either it's not as depleted as you think (too many carbs).....or you are putting too many carbs in at once. You can start with higher GI based carbs right after and then start getting into more slower ones. That and watch fruit intake....as once your liver glycogen is full excess fructose is going to end up in fat.

Sounds good I am gonna start off with two loads a week tue/sat my one big question.... I unfortunately can't drink guiness:( .... what is a good alternative for loading?

But seriousely should I do the a little fruit and Malto dextros recvery drink thing to start the load then go to like yams, sprouted/fermented grains? Should I do a little white flour products early on?

I know the answer is going to be try it out and see what works for you:p . I guess the biggest question I have is with regards to wanting that PWO insulin and glucose rush in order to make it effective but maltodextros and white bread just weirds me out if it is better for the kick off thats fine though. Any experience you have would be appreciated.

Oh and back when I was doing a similar plan I had read that a carb rich meal pre work out would help get the insulin going for the load and perhaps that would lessen the need for liquid/refined carbs PWO. However back then I loved maltodextros and white bread:rolleyes: .

Mike ODonnell
10-08-2008, 12:03 PM
Personally I would go find yourself a Mexican place and get a pitcher of marghettas and chicken faijtas with rice....now that's a fun load! (Guinness and pizza come later)

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-08-2008, 03:21 PM
Personally I would go find yourself a Mexican place and get a pitcher of marghettas and chicken faijtas with rice....now that's a fun load! (Guinness and pizza come later)

You are absolutely right Sat. are gaonna be big fun day Tues. I'll play around with a stream lined load.

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-11-2008, 10:31 AM
So about the 1 lb. a week thing I don't know look at these numbers.

BW: 168 BF: 10%

12 days into stregth programing and feast

BW: 177 BF:12%

about 4.5 lbs. both ways. Maybe a little more fat do to some of the weight being added food to the gut however if anything I have a little less water weight than the initial weigh. regardless I am sure I have gained more than 1# of muscle a week so far.


So I have been tweaking the diet and we will see on tues. but it is alredy obviouse the fat gain has slowed and the weight gain is still coming. My BF% has not been incresing for a few days now. The strength gains are honestly surpriseing. Nothing real good to compare as far as equal rep set maxes yet but I am easily reaching and often surpasing my goals which I usually set above my expectations. In short this is an incredible success so far.

I figure these initial gains are gonna be much heftier than the weeks further out but we'll see.

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-19-2008, 01:39 PM
Man so I am changeing my weigh in to Sun as it is post carb load and 24 hrs. into recovery on a rest day.

Still 20 days in the strength is and the weight gains are surprising me.

today I weighed in at 182 and measured 13%BFish... maybe alittle over sometimes I just don't trust the machine.... but I am always using the same one and I know ruffly how close it is to a 10 point skin fold so I feel I can use it to at least measure differences between weigh ins.

that would bring me to a gain of 14lbs with a gain of ~7lb. fat so it seems as though I have gained ~7lb. muscle in 20 days.

There is no way I am off by a whole lot there so the 1 lb. a week thing so far looks like BS. We'll see as I continue if this trend changes.

Gant Grimes
10-21-2008, 12:17 PM
Highly doubt a few 2x10s are going to overtrain you unless you go to failure. Strength is more CNS responsive than glycolitic, but you can deplete muscle glycogen and prime for reloading and growth (of course best used 1-2x a week). Can't hurt as it's not the main focus and also the bigger you are, the stronger you will get. Everyone does it....even the boys at Westside.

I took a page from their book to good effect. I followed my pressed with 4x15 DB overhead presses. I followed bench presses with 4x8 push presses*. My shoulders and triceps got bigger and stronger which led to improved pressing numbers. Keep your principal lifts heavy and do the hypertrophy stuff with your auxiliary exercises. Big begets strong begets big and so on.

*I might have had quicker results doing 4x15 DH OH presses, but I wanted push presses in the program.

As for loading, I like cookie dough ice cream with lots of strawberries and Magic Shell. Negro Modelo and steak enchiladas work well, too.**

**There is an APB out for my lower abs, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-21-2008, 07:04 PM
As for loading, I like cookie dough ice cream with lots of strawberries and Magic Shell. Negro Modelo and steak enchiladas work well, too.**

**There is an APB out for my lower abs, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

I am feelin ya brother but it sure is fun.:D

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-26-2008, 06:43 AM
So no Carb ups for a week and I have lost 5-6 lbs. I figure this is mostly water and glycogen. However I have also lost ~1.5 lbs. of fat by my measurments with a BF% calobrator and Medical style scale. I am 176.5 and 12.5%BF my strength gains have continued all week and I wont carb up again till next sat. I have also been IFing and eating less. 18hr. IF at the end of rest day till just before training.

Still eating around 1g/#LBM on avg. and keeping animal fats high. I am glad at the fat loss I also am glad at the continued strength gains I am hopeing I don't hit any plateaus do to CNS fatigue before I start eating big again. Then I will probably train for two more weeks eating big before takeing a week off training total of 7 weeks training.