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Grissim Connery
10-07-2008, 05:57 PM
I sodium load a week or so before tournaments and then cut out salt to drop water. besides this, i generally don't add salt to anything (unless i mess up a meal and need to salvage some kind of flavor). recently i've been trying some of the sauces that use tamari. this has been a nice change of pace, but my water weight changed dramatically in that time. is there any benefit to cycling sodium?

Steven Low
10-08-2008, 06:43 AM
I strongly doubt it. As athletes we want a lot of sodium so our CNS/heart operates well. If our bodies don't need it they will simply excrete it.

The nice thing is our bodies have a couple of hormones that regulate sodium and water retention so all the crap about too much sodium leads to high blood pressure & hypertension is a bunch of BS (IMO). Well, at least for healthy athletic people.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Mike ODonnell
10-08-2008, 07:02 AM
BB do that trick for shows.....to cut weight and get cut. Outside of that no idea if there is any other advantages.

Like Steven said....I love sea salt....but stay away from sodium from processed foods as much as I can. High BP is more a response to insulin and other things like stress, cortisol, sleep. That and high glucagon tells the body to release water, not store it....hence why high protein diets can dehydrate you.

Mike ODonnell
10-08-2008, 10:47 AM
Sea salt is also high in iodine....which is good for the thryoid. Chances are if your body is craving something....there is usually a reason for it.

Garrett Smith
10-08-2008, 11:19 AM
Heavily sweating athletes need dietary sources of sodium, preferably from food sources and/or a good sea salt (good sea salts are not white, BTW).

MOD, sea salt is not high enough in iodine to be much of any consequence. It has some, that's true, but not enough to correct a deficiency (and many people are deficient these days). A better food source would be sea veggies.

Grissim Connery
10-08-2008, 11:52 AM
i got a pot roast cookin in a slow cooker right now. maybe i'll wrap it in some algae tonight.

Mike ODonnell
10-08-2008, 12:00 PM
MOD, sea salt is not high enough in iodine to be much of any consequence. It has some, that's true, but not enough to correct a deficiency (and many people are deficient these days). A better food source would be sea veggies.

Yeah I didn't mean it would help with severe deficiencies....but it certainly can help maintain daily healthy levels (so no one gets a deficiency down the road). Prevention is the name of the game.

Of course ideally we need to just all turn into sea based animals for health....but I have yet to perfect my shark formula (as that is what I would choose....Mmmmmm....surfers) :)

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-14-2008, 10:19 PM
When I read The Paleo Diet a while back one of the things I found interesting was his mention of a sodium/potasium relatonship which was reminiscent of the Omega 6/3. It was stated that an over abundance of sodium would effect our potasium absorption. I had never previousely run across this. I am bringing this up because While I agree with the advocation of healthy sodium sources for active individuals should we also be worried about a potasium balance?

Steve cool post about the CNS you got any of your handy studies, honestly I will take your word I am just trying to get more savy with desifering good research reports. I'll google it too I am also trying to learn how to better pick worth while info sources from the ton of crap that will often come up in a search.:D

Garrett Smith
10-15-2008, 06:59 AM
Liam,
Yes, we do always want to get a solid amount of potassium in our diets.

From what I've been reading from Cordain lately, I'm actually beginning to think it is the chloride in salt that is more of an issue with high blood pressure and osteoporosis (this was in his last email blast, not in the online newsletter)...that and the fact that most people are deficient in iodine and that allows for more spots for chlorine to infiltrate and hang around. Also, how sodium chloride and iodine interact for absorption (http://optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-06/IOD_06.htm):
On a molar basis, there is 30,000 times more chloride than iodide in iodized salt. Chloride competes with iodide for absorption in the intestinal tract.
My ideas on the subject:

For athletes, use some salt on food, good sea salt, and not too much

Eat a ton of veggies for potassium, even consider supplementing potassium bicarb to "alkalize" the system, two birds with one stone

Get your iodine status covered (I run a urine test to check), this will help detox the body of extra bromine/fluorine/chlorine (-ide).

Grissim Connery
10-15-2008, 10:36 AM
Steve cool post about the CNS you got any of your handy studies, honestly I will take your word I am just trying to get more savy with desifering good research reports. I'll google it too I am also trying to learn how to better pick worth while info sources from the ton of crap that will often come up in a search.:D

any basic physiology book will describe it. look up a section on action potentials, and then look up a section on nephrons and kidney function. you can probably find all of it on google

Robert Allison
10-15-2008, 10:48 AM
Not really a study, but an interesting article nonetheless:

http://www.t-nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/sodium_your_secret_weapon&cr=dietAndNutrition

T-Nation--you have to use your own judgment as to whether that is safe for your work or family.


The nice thing is our bodies have a couple of hormones that regulate sodium and water retention so all the crap about too much sodium leads to high blood pressure & hypertension is a bunch of BS (IMO). Well, at least for healthy athletic people.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Gary Taubes wrote a great article on this for Science a while back called The (Political) Science of Salt. I think you can still find it online, but, in a nutshell, he agrees.

Unless you are sodium sensitive, which is usually related to kidney impairment, salt is generally not an issue.

Garrett Smith
10-15-2008, 02:45 PM
I think our mechanisms for regulating chloride/chlorine are much less developed and/or overburdened these days.

I don't believe sodium is as much an issue as the chloride (and they always seem to come together in our modern "salt").

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-15-2008, 04:44 PM
any basic physiology book will describe it. look up a section on action potentials, and then look up a section on nephrons and kidney function. you can probably find all of it on google

Yeah pretty basic I guess I found a bunch of info however none of it really helped understanding how to balance all of these nutrients we are talking about. I am pretty sure I am in good shape considering the contents of my diet still I am curiouse as to some specifics.

Dr. G- thanx. I am wondering about that iodine test where did you get it? Also as I am in a bulking phase my diet is a bit less alkaline then usual so I have been takeing a Ph pill byenzymedica or something anyway it contains bicarbonate along with some other minerals and some theraputic enzymes to help deal with any undigested food in the GI even still when I use liptness to test my urine it has been rather acidic like 5.5 is that just to be expected when eating to gain?

Garrett Smith
10-16-2008, 07:13 AM
Liam,
I send the iodine test out, you collect the urine sample, then mail it back to the lab, they send me the results.

As for the bicarb, definitely don't take it with protein, it will inhibit your own stomach acid.

The enzymes should be helpful.

As for the acidity, that's a tough one on a mass phase. Veggies are what are most alkaline, they're also what you don't tend to have room for with all the other calories. You may want to try more of the bicarb supplement.

Greg Davis
10-16-2008, 08:35 AM
Eat a ton of veggies for potassium, even consider supplementing potassium bicarb to "alkalize" the system, two birds with one stone


I remember looking for this form of potassium at local health food stores with no luck. Is there another name for this form or is there a name of a good product that is widely available?

Garrett Smith
10-16-2008, 11:01 AM
Greg,
Considering the positive research on potassium bicarbonate (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/potassium/) (along with potassium in general), it is shockingly difficult to find, even online.

Apparently, Alka-Seltzer GOLD (not Cold) has a decent amount of potassium bicarbonate in it, along with the good old sodium bicarbonate.

The supplement that I will likely use with my future osteoporosis nutrition/exercise/supplement program is this one (http://protherainc.com/prod/proddetail.asp?ID=V033-25). This particular one is only made available to healthcare practitioners. If the Alka-Seltzer Gold doesn't work for you or if you'd rather have capsules, feel free to PM me and I can get you some.

Again, don't take any bicarb with your protein, unless you want it to digest poorly. There is likely nothing worse for one's health than partially-digested meat sitting around the intestines at >100 degrees...

Greg Davis
10-16-2008, 11:49 AM
Thats annoying cuz its probably a relatively cheap supplement to put together.

Alka Seltzer Gold:

Active ingredients
(in each tablet)
Anhydrous citric acid 1000 mg. Antacid
Potassium bicarbonate 344 mg. Antacid
Sodium bicarbonate (heat-treated) 1050 mg. Antacid

Other information
* each tablet contains: potassium 135 mg
* each tablet contains: sodium 309 mg

Seems odd to take a potassium supplement salt in it.. ?

Garrett Smith
10-16-2008, 01:21 PM
I had an ND school buddy of mine who ordered the powdered potassium bicarb and would mix it with his water...he didn't do that for very long. If I remember correctly, he said it was pretty darn bitter.

At least the ProThera/Klaire product has equal amounts of sodium and potassium bicarb in it, and doesn't have to mix with water so one tastes it.

Darryl Shaw
10-17-2008, 06:19 AM
Why waste your money on supplements when you can just eat raisins? They're the perfect post workout carb as they're full of potassium, rich in antioxidants (ORAC score 3037 μ mol TE/100g) and have a PRAL value of -21 making them one of the most alkaline foods around.

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/acid.shtml

http://oracvalues.com/raisins-seedless

Liam Dougherty Springer
10-18-2008, 05:24 AM
Liam,
I send the iodine test out, you collect the urine sample, then mail it back to the lab, they send me the results.

As for the bicarb, definitely don't take it with protein, it will inhibit your own stomach acid.

The enzymes should be helpful.

As for the acidity, that's a tough one on a mass phase. Veggies are what are most alkaline, they're also what you don't tend to have room for with all the other calories. You may want to try more of the bicarb supplement.

Thanx Dr.G-

I am always sure to take the Ph supplement at least 2 hours after I eat I try to make it 3 + sometimes I will put them by my bed so if I wake up in the night I will take them w/ a glass of water. as far as the Iodine test I will PM you do you think it would make sence to wait until my diet is back to usual for a couple of weeks as I am a few weeks into a bulking phase and everything is going to change.

Garrett Smith
10-18-2008, 10:07 AM
Your diet doesn't matter much for the iodine test unless you are taking iodine supplements or eat a lot of sea veggies.

David Mathews
10-19-2008, 05:10 AM
Garrett,
If I workout fasted in the early AM would it be best to take the alkaseltzer Gold supp. before working out or PWO? And is it something that might be taken daily or just intermittently? Thanks!

Chris Salvato
10-19-2008, 09:50 PM
I'm a bit confused...maybe it's because I'm a reductionist at heart...

As athletes, can't we just megadose on a multivitamin -- 2-3 Centrum MV's a day, for example, and let our bodies regulate the rest?

It just seems like keeping up with the micronutrients on this level is a bit overkill with how well our bodies can regulate all of this on its own...


2 Centrums a day provides 300 ug of Iodine, for example, and eating a diet where one cooks with iodized salts seems to adequately cover that...

Same goes for any other micronutrient, at least in my neophyte opinion..

In short, whats wrong with taking 2-3 MVs a day and then eating a diet rich in fruits and veggies -- green and deep red/purple?

Garrett Smith
10-20-2008, 05:39 AM
Chris,
Your neophyte opinion is noted.

Centrum is made by Wyeth, a pharmaceutical company. There's your first tipoff.

Centrum is pure garbage, the cheapest (and least bioavailable nutrients) stuff they can put in a tablet, plus all sorts of preservatives and binders:
http://www.centrum.com/product_detail.aspx?productid=CENTRUM&panel=tablets
Dibasic Calcium Phosphate, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Ascorbic Acid (Vit. C), Ferrous Fumarate, dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (Vit. E). Contains < 2% of: Acacia, Anhydrous Citric Acid, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Beta Carotene, Biotin, Boric Acid, BHT, Calcium Pantothenate, Calcium Stearate, Cholecalciferol (Vit. D), Chromium Picolinate, Corn Starch, Crospovidone, Cupric Sulfate, Cyanocobalamin (Vit. B12), dl-Alpha Tocopherol, FD&C Yellow 6 Aluminum Lake, Folic Acid, Gelatin, Hydrogenated Palm Oil, Hypromellose, Lutein, Lycopene, Maltodextrin, Manganese Sulfate, Medium-Chain Triglycerides, Modified Food Starch, Niacinamide, Nickelous Sulfate, Phytonadione (Vit. K), Polyethylene Glycol, Polyvinyl Alcohol, Potassium Iodide, Pregelatinized Corn Starch, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vit. B6), Riboflavin (Vit. B2), Silicon Dioxide, Sodium Ascorbate, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Metavanadate, Sodium Molybdate, Sodium Selenate, Sorbic Acid, Stannous Chloride, Sucrose, Talc, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vit. B1), Titanium Dioxide, Tricalcium Phosphate, Vitamin A Acetate (Vit. A), Zinc Oxide. May also contain < 2%: Sodium Aluminum Silicate.

Maybe you never read the label before, as most of my patients haven't either.

Iodized salt is supposedly enough to prevent goiter (outright clinical iodine deficiency). To say that the amount in Centrum(s) plus iodized salt is enough is like saying that taking the RDA of Vitamin C to prevent scurvy plus 10mg more is enough to maintain optimal health. This is not true for "normal" people, much less for athletes.

There is nothing wrong with eating a diet rich in vegetables--I've seen someone almost make themselves diabetic by eating too much fruit.

If you'd like to read more on iodine and what likely optimal amounts for humans are, see http://optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Research_I.shtml .

This is all compounded by the fact that all of the food we eat these days is nutrient-deficient compared to earlier centuries, so we're already behind the eight ball there.

If you don't understand the pH regulation issue, you should read more on it. The body regulates the blood pH tightly, but it has to use resources to do that (such as minerals from bone and glutamine from muscle). It's like saying you always keep your checking account balance at the same amount while you are constantly spending money--only by taking money out of your savings can you manage to do this. pH is a huge part of osteoporosis and sarcopenia that cannot be ignored. See here for more info on that http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/acid.shtml .

I understand your "What's the big deal?" mentality...I used to be there.

Chris Salvato
10-20-2008, 06:40 PM
Chris,
Your neophyte opinion is noted.


Thanks for taking it into consideration :)


I understand your "What's the big deal?" mentality...I used to be there.
[/quote]

Well I wouldn't say that I don't think its a big deal. It's more like it seems way too detailed to focus on exact gram-per-gram dosages of micronutrients...

I feel as if it would be easier to just find the proper dose to megadose and let my body take care of regulating the rest...

In other words, I understand the importance, just I feel that there must be a more direct approach as opposed to supplementing so specifically -- I feel as if i supplemented so specifically for everything, i feel like i would have a medicine chest with thousands of dollars of supplements to last me 3 months.


Maybe you never read the label before, as most of my patients haven't either.


Wow, I feel dumb for reading the label on everything but that...I guess it just never occurred to me, and I don't know why! :eek: heh

With that in mind, what brand would you recommend? Or are you opposed to multi-vitamins. Despite the downsides, i usually tell people i coach nutritionally to supplement with a multi-V 2x a day as I figured it was a cheap way to get them started on the right track when just starting... Would you disagree with this approach?


Iodized salt is supposedly enough to prevent goiter (outright clinical iodine deficiency). To say that the amount in Centrum(s) plus iodized salt is enough is like saying that taking the RDA of Vitamin C to prevent scurvy plus 10mg more is enough to maintain optimal health. This is not true for "normal" people, much less for athletes.

This is another one of those statements that makes me feel like I should have buckets of pills ready to supplement my micronutrients....

I guess the real question is what should I NEED to supplement with a mostly paleo diet, rich in meat, nuts and veggies and moderate in fruits? That's where most people here fall in, I believe..


BTW, my knowledge in acid/base balance and regulation is sorely lacking (my A&P class skipped it, one of the few chapters i never read on my own and I never looked into internet resources, so yeh...) I will definitly read those articles on Iodine and get back to understanding the acid/base balance :)

Thanks for your help Dr. G.

Darryl Shaw
10-21-2008, 05:41 AM
I guess the real question is what should I NEED to supplement with a mostly paleo diet, rich in meat, nuts and veggies and moderate in fruits? That's where most people here fall in, I believe..

You shouldn't need to supplement your diet with anything except perhaps fish oil.

Chris Salvato
10-21-2008, 07:14 AM
You shouldn't need to supplement your diet with anything except perhaps fish oil.

That's what I believed all along but I always counted the multi-vitamin supplementation as a cheap "insurance" to make sure that I really did get everything I needed for the day...especially, since as an athlete, I need much more vitamins than a sedentary person...

If my logic is flawed, let me know :)

Garrett Smith
10-21-2008, 09:09 AM
Chris,
The things I make sure people are getting (absorbing) enough of, especially at the start is:

Methylcobalamin (the active coenzyme form of B12, not cyanocobalamin)

Magnesium (I've had very positive results from taking ~1200mg day lately, even I was amazed)

Probiotics (easily obtained from food by those who are willing)

Iodine (this is a huge deficiency issue, compounded by chlorine/bromine/fluorine that compete for spots in the body)

FYI, at my last naturopathic medical convention, during an open floor session, several NDs specifically stated that exercising without supplementing minerals was really a bad idea, one doc even used the word "suicide" tongue-in-cheek.

Increased toxicity in the environment combined with nutrient-deficient foods has created a world unlike those of our ancestors.

Chris Salvato
10-21-2008, 10:34 AM
Chris,
The things I make sure people are getting (absorbing) enough of, especially at the start is:

Methylcobalamin (the active coenzyme form of B12, not cyanocobalamin)

Magnesium (I've had very positive results from taking ~1200mg day lately, even I was amazed)

Probiotics (easily obtained from food by those who are willing)

Iodine (this is a huge deficiency issue, compounded by chlorine/bromine/fluorine that compete for spots in the body)

FYI, at my last naturopathic medical convention, during an open floor session, several NDs specifically stated that exercising without supplementing minerals was really a bad idea, one doc even used the word "suicide" tongue-in-cheek.

Increased toxicity in the environment combined with nutrient-deficient foods has created a world unlike those of our ancestors.

Garrett,

Perfect, this was just the response that I was looking for.

I still think that taking these supplements in addition to a better MV would be a good way to start since most new trainee's/normal people's diets are absolutely awful as far as micronutrient content...

I will definitely take the first step by adding these supplements to my routine as well as looking into them further.

I appreciate your advice!

Garrett Smith
10-21-2008, 12:05 PM
Oops, I forgot to add cod liver oil...I prefer it to fish oil, as it contains EPA/DHA and vitamins A & D.

Darryl Shaw
10-23-2008, 06:36 AM
FYI, at my last naturopathic medical convention, during an open floor session, several NDs specifically stated that exercising without supplementing minerals was really a bad idea, one doc even used the word "suicide" tongue-in-cheek.

So a group of people who make at least part of their living from selling supplements think it's a good idea for people to use supplements..... (http://doctorasteacher.com/store/) :p

Garrett Smith
10-23-2008, 07:05 AM
Darryl, please feel free to share what service/product you spend your day making a living on before judging others...

Also, I'd like to add that no matter how wonderful a diet one takes up, decades of poor nutrition can be next to impossible to make up with only food. It would be great if everyone figured out what to eat in their twenties, but few if any ever do it.

Philosophy, whether it is for example:
(1) whole foods provide all necessary nutrients, or...
(2) veganism is the perfect diet and will save the earth
cannot trump physiology, as in:
(1) massive nutritional deficiencies created through decades of malnutrition, or
(2) needs for animal-specific nutrients like B12/EPA/DHA/bioavailable iron.

Chris Salvato
10-23-2008, 07:58 AM
So a group of people who make at least part of their living from selling supplements think it's a good idea for people to use supplements..... (http://doctorasteacher.com/store/) :p

/shrugs

If G wanted to sell me something, he probably would have linked me to his site...but you did :P

Garrett Smith
10-23-2008, 08:22 AM
Actually, I sell very few products through my (in severe need of updating) online store and I make a point on forums not to push people in that direction, I ask them to PM me.

Darryl Shaw
10-24-2008, 06:14 AM
Darryl, please feel free to share what service/product you spend your day making a living on before judging others...

Does it matter how I make my living?

Also, I'd like to add that no matter how wonderful a diet one takes up, decades of poor nutrition can be next to impossible to make up with only food.

What? That sentence makes no sense.

It would be great if everyone figured out what to eat in their twenties, but few if any ever do it.

The whole healthy eating thing is actually pretty simple because, as Michael Pollan said, all you need to do is "eat food, not too much, mostly plants"* and if people fail to understand this simple idea it's because there's a whole industry intent on keeping them confused about food so they can sell them garbage while at the same time there's this whole other industry telling people that they can fix their crappy diets with supplements. The nutrients you mentioned previously for example, methylcobalamin (B12), magnesium and iodine can all be obtained quite easily and inexepensively from food and foods containing prebiotic fructooligosaccharides such as inulin make probiotic supplements redundant.
Sometime around 400BC Hippocrates said “Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food” and as far as I'm concerned people would be much healthier and they'd save themselves a lot of money if they followed his advice rather than relying on the questionable advice of a bunch of modern day snake-oil salesmen.

Philosophy, whether it is for example:
(1) whole foods provide all necessary nutrients, or...
(2) veganism is the perfect diet and will save the earth
cannot trump physiology, as in:
(1) massive nutritional deficiencies created through decades of malnutrition, or
(2) needs for animal-specific nutrients like B12/EPA/DHA/bioavailable iron.

Vegans don't need supplements they need meat.

Actually, I sell very few products through my (in severe need of updating) online store and I make a point on forums not to push people in that direction, I ask them to PM me.

And yet it only takes two clicks of the mouse to find your online store...... :rolleyes:

*Link. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=c68ce221c481f56b&ex=1171083600&adxnnlx=1170931106-BHtqW94vxD4JdzI8N5ELJg&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

Garrett Smith
10-24-2008, 09:14 AM
What? That sentence makes no sense.

Yes, it does. I'll give you an analogy. A person with poor financial (eating) habits racks up a lot of debt (nutrient deficiencies) and is not able to pay their bills with their current job (malnutrition is established and progressing). They get a better job that pays more (whole food diet) and is enough to cover their bills and living expenses, barely. Problem is, even with this new job, they aren't making enough to pay off their debts, nor put anything into savings.

I have no problem with your whole food philosophy, I wish it worked all the time, I wish people were more willing to radically change their crappy diets than take pills & powders. Many simply won't do it.

Maybe another physician's article on the difficulties in getting people to change their diets will help:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/carbohydrates-are-addictive/

Many people would rather die than change their diet. Us practitioners then have the choice--do we try to plug the holes in the dam with some pills, or do we get all uppity and judgemental about whole food philosophy (and completely lose the patient).

What you do for a living might matter in this discussion, as it would allow others who wished to pass judgment on you and your motives to do so, as you have so blatantly done to me. If you don't see patients/clients and demand that they change their diets on a regular basis, then you are basically "armchair quarterbacking" here.

Darryl Shaw
10-25-2008, 04:47 AM
Garrett, first I'd like to apologize. I didn't intend to make this personal as it's the supplements industry I have a grievance with not you. That said given your profession and my wholefoods zealotry I'm sure there will be plenty of things we disagree on in future so I'd like to make it clear that at no time am I trying to cause you or anyone else any personal offence.

Yes, it does. I'll give you an analogy. A person with poor financial (eating) habits racks up a lot of debt (nutrient deficiencies) and is not able to pay their bills with their current job (malnutrition is established and progressing). They get a better job that pays more (whole food diet) and is enough to cover their bills and living expenses, barely. Problem is, even with this new job, they aren't making enough to pay off their debts, nor put anything into savings.

Okay, I'll concede, albeit grudgingly, that there may be rare instances where people can benefit from a short course of supplements while they make the transition to a healthier diet but I don't believe that supplements will improve health beyond what could be achieved over the long term through diet.

I have no problem with your whole food philosophy, I wish it worked all the time, I wish people were more willing to radically change their crappy diets than take pills & powders. Many simply won't do it.

Many people would rather die than change their diet. Us practitioners then have the choice--do we try to plug the holes in the dam with some pills, or do we get all uppity and judgemental about whole food philosophy (and completely lose the patient).

Sad but true. Case in point my parents; my mother has osteoporosis and is getting shorter by the day yet despite knowing that changing her diet and doing some exercise will improve her health and possibly help her live longer she refuses to do anything except drink gallons of milk every day and take the supplements her doctor convinced her she needs. It's the same story with my obese diabetic couch potato father who's convinced the pills he takes daily will make him better.

What you do for a living might matter in this discussion, as it would allow others who wished to pass judgment on you and your motives to do so, as you have so blatantly done to me. If you don't see patients/clients and demand that they change their diets on a regular basis, then you are basically "armchair quarterbacking" here.

I definitely fall into the "armchair quarterback" category here and if that makes me seem judgemental to someone who works in the industry then so be it and I make no apologies for my opinions.

Mike ODonnell
10-25-2008, 08:51 AM
So a group of people who make at least part of their living from selling supplements think it's a good idea for people to use supplements..... (http://doctorasteacher.com/store/) :p

Seriously that is a bogus claim....as find me any person who doesn't sell something (product, service, advice) in an effort to make money and put food on the table. It should be based on the quality of what a person sells (or how it is sold/marketed), not the fact that one has to sell something to make a living. I'd sell fish oil on my site because I believe people should take it, and they have to buy it somewhere. If I sold "Cortislim" then you could criticize my professional ethics.

I do agree that people "should" eat all whole foods all the time and get everything they need from there. I do however also live in the real world and know most people will NOT do that. If someone chooses to eat processed food and spend more money on supplements to make up for it, well that is their choice. I make no excuses for the supplement industry, as they wouldn't exist if people didn't keep buying their stuff. We could debate the individual need for each supplement, it's claims and how it is marketed....but the industry as a whole is far less evil than say big Pharma in my book.