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Trygve Lunde
11-04-2008, 07:22 AM
Hello

i was just wondering about the different cycling approches you guys use when getting leanest possible. My goal is to loose as much fat as possible, i dont mind loosing some muscle also, but of course if i can hold on to everything thats great. But main goal is loose body fat. And not gain any muscle or weight.
Im around 12% bodyfat now and i want to get down to 6-8%.

Im doing IF as you guys now and have no problem with it. I only eat one "big" meal a day. Its not that big but its ok. I think i eat around 1400-1500 calories a day now. I know its low but ive been doing this the last two-three weeks and hopefully it will work out. My macro split is 80-100g protein, around 80g fat and no or >30g carb.
Its kind of a low calorie AD diet. Because on saturdays i eat what ever i want. Or not whatever but food containing of mostly carb and some fat, no protein. But i think i may go overboard sometimes :p i just love bread, and bakery products. But after reading Joe`s thread i think maybe this isnt the way to go

So as i was saying, what methods do you guys use? High protein days? high carb/high protein low fat day? high carb, mod fat low protein? etc. And how often is your cycle? every third day? or the AD way etc.

Gant Grimes
11-04-2008, 08:54 AM
My goal is to loose as much fat as possible, i dont mind loosing some muscle also, but of course if i can hold on to everything thats great. But main goal is loose body fat. And not gain any muscle or weight.

What the hell? This is the Performance Menu. We don't generally discuss protocols that will kill muscle (unless we're talking about long CF metcons).

Do you have any goals apart from bodyfat %age? What do you weigh now? What's your program? If you're asthmatic, I don't know that wasting away is a good idea.

Maybe you should go here:
http://www.sexyanorexia.net/

Emily Mattes
11-04-2008, 01:24 PM
If your only goal is to get down to a really low body fat percentage, then your best bet is to read the articles and forums on T-Nation. I am not being flippant--the dudes over there make getting swole their life.

I think on these forums you'll find a lot of people who are doing Paleo, IF, whatever, but it's with the idea of simply being healthier, increasing their performance, and losing some body fat. But super leanness, even at the expense of muscle is not going to be a specialty here.

That said, I've heard of various measures of success from cyclical ketogenic diets, and if you want to be extreme the Velocity Diet is always an option. And I read somewhere on here (I think from Dan John) that incorporating long, slow cardio while fasted in the morning is supposed to help, for example an hour long walk in addition to your regular training program. But again, I am really not sure of all of these details. Following the Zone is also pretty successful at stripping fat, but that's because it's low-calorie and relatively low-carb and you're already doing something like that.

joe waguespack
11-04-2008, 02:39 PM
Just from my personal experience, the whole AD thing really has screwed with my metabolism. Prior to giving it a try I was basically doing a 19 hour fast/ 5 hour feed IF, with Paleo food choices and Zone block ratios 15-18 blocks. THat was the leanest I ever was and the best I ever felt and it seemed that I could quickly make changes in my physique by simply altering my training and not having to make dietary changes. Since coming off the AD and going back to doing what I was doing before I have had a lot of stomach problems, I generally feel like crap and I have added a good bit of bodyfat.

I think the best plan is the one you can stick with, for me the AD was not something I could have seen myself live with for to long. Anytime a nutrition plan is to extreme ( no carb, no fat, high protein.......) I think it has it's downfalls and problems. Eating plenty of healthy fruits and veggies along with good protein sources and healthy fats is definitely the way to go, you will feel good and also you will have the comfort of knowing that you are feeding your body what it needs to stay healthy and strong.

A few other things,You always want to keep or gain muscle, losing muscle will stall your fatloss efforts, when dieting you still need to lift heavy to make sure your body knows to hold on to that muscle tissue. Also, unless you are 120lbs, 1400-1500 calories is nowhere near enough calories for you to be eating. A good place to start is 12 x bodyweight. and that is even a little low. I think starting off with the Zone/Paleo is a great place to start for fat loss. It will help you learn what and how much of what you need to eat. Try that for a few weeks and see how you respond and add in a few fasts as you see fit.

Trygve Lunde
11-05-2008, 12:08 AM
Thank you
Im 22 years old btw. and 180 cm and 83 kg now. I just want to get super lean now, and maybe later add som muscles if i want. But for now fat loss is my only consern. But of course i want to do it the healthy way :)

Gant Grimes
11-05-2008, 07:44 AM
Do you have any performance goals beyond aesthetics? If not, IF on Paleo stuff. Get yourself some rings and look at Steven Low's WO log unless you want to look all cracked out.

Trygve Lunde
11-05-2008, 08:39 AM
nope performance doesnt matter that much. Its the looks that count :)
thank you, will check that out

Trygve Lunde
11-05-2008, 08:49 AM
Just from my personal experience, the whole AD thing really has screwed with my metabolism. Prior to giving it a try I was basically doing a 19 hour fast/ 5 hour feed IF, with Paleo food choices and Zone block ratios 15-18 blocks. THat was the leanest I ever was and the best I ever felt and it seemed that I could quickly make changes in my physique by simply altering my training and not having to make dietary changes. Since coming off the AD and going back to doing what I was doing before I have had a lot of stomach problems, I generally feel like crap and I have added a good bit of bodyfat.

I think the best plan is the one you can stick with, for me the AD was not something I could have seen myself live with for to long. Anytime a nutrition plan is to extreme ( no carb, no fat, high protein.......) I think it has it's downfalls and problems. Eating plenty of healthy fruits and veggies along with good protein sources and healthy fats is definitely the way to go, you will feel good and also you will have the comfort of knowing that you are feeding your body what it needs to stay healthy and strong.

A few other things,You always want to keep or gain muscle, losing muscle will stall your fatloss efforts, when dieting you still need to lift heavy to make sure your body knows to hold on to that muscle tissue. Also, unless you are 120lbs, 1400-1500 calories is nowhere near enough calories for you to be eating. A good place to start is 12 x bodyweight. and that is even a little low. I think starting off with the Zone/Paleo is a great place to start for fat loss. It will help you learn what and how much of what you need to eat. Try that for a few weeks and see how you respond and add in a few fasts as you see fit.

Ive never tried the Zone type so the block thing doesnt ring a bell :p but i will deep into it. As for calories im around x10 now. But i have a eating day a week wich will add that up i guess :p

But as my question was, nobody here really cycle between low fat and high fat? ist just the same all the time?

Gant Grimes
11-05-2008, 09:18 AM
nope performance doesnt matter that much. Its the looks that count :)
thank you, will check that out

Form follows function.

Before this place became a refugee camp, people would have accosted you for wanting to do this to yourself. I don't see the point of wanting to do this, and I don't suspect you'll get good advice here about looking emaciated. Just eat a piece of beef jerky with a spot of Mrs. Dash every 12 hours, and wash it down with some diet water and you'll hit your goals.

Emily Mattes
11-05-2008, 09:18 AM
Trygve, as I said before, the low-fat, high-fat, low-carb, high-carb cycling diets are a bodybuilder thing. They are for people who just want to strip fat off their bodies and don't give a crap about performance.

On here, Performance Menu, the focus is performance. General health/athletic prowess/whatever generally take precedence over pursuit of simple aesthetics. That's not to say people here don't want to look good naked, but it's not their priority the way it's the priority of a bodybuilder or model. You are really in the wrong place for diet advice, I promise you.

joe waguespack
11-05-2008, 11:53 AM
I hate to see this. I came to the PM boards to get away from the CF witch hunt forums. It doesn't matter the persons goal, it's their goal. Wether we agree with it or not, if we have the knowledge and experience to help someone take the right steps in the right direction, then I think we need to do so.

Trygve, you really need to read up on The Zone, Paleo, and IF. Check out Mike O'Donnell's blog, there is a ton of great info on losing fat . building muscle and also making good healthy dietary choices. We all want to look good, some of us want to be healthy as well , and then there are some that want to look good at any cost. Remember , you can have the appearance of being fit without actually being fit ( drugs will definitely play a part in that) , but it is impossible to actually be fit and not look it. There is no magic diet or workout that will get you muscular and ripped. It's about finding the right mix of nutritional and training strategies that work well for you and get you to your goals the healthiest, safest and fastest. Even if you go over to the Bodybuilding forums these days you will see many people advocating fruits and veggies, lean proteins and healthy fats along with a good solid routine based around big compound movements. This is nothing new and people are still doing it because it works. As far as cycling nutrients , I would say the easiest way to put it would be : eat more when you do more, eat less when you do less. On the days you train heavy up the calories a bit and maybe try to keep any non fruit/veggie carb sources to your post WO meal. I don't really suggest any non fruit/veggie carb sources ( maybe oatmeal) but if you do eat them do it post WO. I have found no need to really cycle carbs/fats/proteins, it never did anything for me. I like to eat a good balanced diet every day, with usually one "anything goes" day a week.

Just another little bit of advice, like Gant said" Form follows function". I was never really able to get super lean and get to that point where I looked good until I stopped worrying so much about how I looked and started focusing more on improving in my workouts and enjoying what I was doing. Find a good diet of natural whole foods and focus on getting stronger and more powerful , and I promise you the physical changes will happen.

Gant Grimes
11-05-2008, 12:34 PM
I hate to see this. I came to the PM boards to get away from the CF witch hunt forums. It doesn't matter the persons goal, it's their goal. Wether we agree with it or not, if we have the knowledge and experience to help someone take the right steps in the right direction, then I think we need to do so.

This is not a witch hunt. The PMJ's tagline is "Journal of Health and Athletic Excellence." I acknowledge other people's goals, but if they're inconsistent with the forum on which they're posted, I won't spend a lot of time giving advice. Simply attaining 5-6% BF is not inherently healthy or athletic. In most cases, it's not healthy at all (borderline eating disorder). I won't enable a young person whom I believe is embarking on an unhealthy path, whether I have the knowledge or not.

That said, a little Paleo grazing and bodyweight exercises will take him far.

Emily Mattes
11-05-2008, 12:38 PM
I apologize, Joe, and I'm sorry Trygve, I was a bit rude in that last post. I'm wrestling with this because part of me recognizes that this guy's goals are his goals, and the other part really hates eating disordered behavior. And an all-encompassing desire to get down to a certain body-fat percentage can be a recipe for eating-disordered behavior.

joe waguespack
11-05-2008, 12:55 PM
Gant and Emily ( no need to apologize), My point was not to help him make unhealthy choices, it was to give him solid advice based on our knowledge and experiences to help him achieve his goals in a healthy manner. I reached 5- 6% bf and was extremely healthy, fit and strong. But I did it by eating healthy and training hard. It can be done in a healthy manner and if we can help someone get there intelligently and without impacting their health in a negative way instead of sending them to seek out advice from those that will suggest hours of cardio, 6 protein shakes a day, and grueling supersets of curls and skull crushers, then wouldn't it make sense to do so.

Gant Grimes
11-05-2008, 01:08 PM
if we can help someone get there intelligently and without impacting their health in a negative way instead of sending them to seek out advice from those that will suggest hours of cardio, 6 protein shakes a day, and grueling supersets of curls and skull crushers, then wouldn't it make sense to do so.

Ahh, shall I be the lesser of two evils? You've put me in a quandary, my friend. If the alternative is cardio (in this case, very unhealthy), then yes, I shall.

Trygve, you've received some solid advice. Go to Mike's blog. Learn about macronutrients. Learn about hormones. That's more important than fat cycling and meal-timing at this point. Get your ass up on some monkey bars, mix in a little parkour, and realize that, at this age, a little Guiness or Harp is worth 0.5% bodyfat.*




In my case, it's worth about 3%.

Trygve Lunde
11-05-2008, 03:56 PM
hehe thank you very much all :D think i will dive into the zone. Im eating sort of paleo and doing if now so all that want be a problem. Its just that im doing almost no carb. And one carb up day, but yeah im gonna change that now. and make myself some good dinners in the near future. Only 400g steak a day with no veggies or nothing is kind of boring, and the same is 400g salmon with nothing else.

And as i said before, i want a healthy way to reach these goals :) and ofc i want to look muscular. But my goal is just to get super ripped once and for all. ive tried so many things but never gotten the results i wanted. I have all the muscles i need so i dont need to get any bigger.

Mike ODonnell
11-05-2008, 04:09 PM
Eat protein, get healthy fats and veggies, lift heavy full body 3x a week, stop excesive cardio, cycle carbs as needed 1-2x a week. That will get most anyone ripped. (sipping on beer.....)

Trygve Lunde
11-05-2008, 04:57 PM
great, another thing. any good sites for palo/zone recepies? so my meals will get more excited :)

Craig Loizides
11-06-2008, 01:25 PM
There are some paleo recipes here although not necessarily zone proportions:
http://www.paleofood.com/
There are also lots of recipes in The Zone and The Paleo Diet.

I thought you said you were a professional soccer player. Aren't you at least a little interested in performance?

Gant,
I agree that 5-6% BF (or 6-8% like originally posted) isn't inherently healthy or athletic, but it isn't inherently unhealthy or unathletic either. Actually, most elite athletes are probably in this range.

Trygve Lunde
11-06-2008, 04:01 PM
There are some paleo recipes here although not necessarily zone proportions:
http://www.paleofood.com/
There are also lots of recipes in The Zone and The Paleo Diet.

I thought you said you were a professional soccer player. Aren't you at least a little interested in performance?

Gant,
I agree that 5-6% BF (or 6-8% like originally posted) isn't inherently healthy or athletic, but it isn't inherently unhealthy or unathletic either. Actually, most elite athletes are probably in this range.

Thanx, that is true. the very best players are very ripped. yeah of course my performance matters, but now the season is over and i want to get ripped once and for all :)

Gittit Shwartz
11-06-2008, 04:23 PM
Trygve, you seem to be suffering from information overload. Otherwise known as "paralysis by analysis".
Pick a plan and stick with it for a few weeks. When you've given it a fair trial, evaluate and change something if it hasn't been working. Or better yet, find a smart trainer to tell you what to do. Let someone else stress the details, while you put the plan to work and watch what happens. It's a good way to start learning... better than reading till your eyes are spinning in opposite directions.
Good luck!
G

Gant Grimes
11-07-2008, 10:07 AM
Gant,
I agree that 5-6% BF (or 6-8% like originally posted) isn't inherently healthy or athletic, but it isn't inherently unhealthy or unathletic either. Actually, most elite athletes are probably in this range.

I don't believe that most elite athletes are in the 5-6% range. Unless you're talking only about sports where power::weight ratio is key (cycling, gymnastics, lighter athletes in weight class sports), I don't believe you're going to going to find many athletes in this range.

But I'm not sure, and I'm certainly open to change. The only published list I've seen was from Dr. Sears regarding college-level athletes, and it did not approach this. I would welcome any studies to the contrary, as I'm a little curious about this.

**I just re-read the original post. I have no idea where I got 5-6%. The 6-8% that Trygve desires is on the lean side but not dangerously unhealthy. Sorry for unnecessary rant.

Thanx, that is true. the very best players are very ripped. yeah of course my performance matters, but now the season is over and i want to get ripped once and for all :)

As I said above, I haven't read a lot of reliable studies on this, but the research I have read indicates that there are no performance benefits when dropping below 8% BFP.

Steven Low
11-07-2008, 02:00 PM
Do you have any performance goals beyond aesthetics? If not, IF on Paleo stuff. Get yourself some rings and look at Steven Low's WO log unless you want to look all cracked out.
I can't tell if that's a compliment or not. :D


Most of your work should be with your sport.. and specific drills. But do some intervals and strength work or whatever. As always diet is generally the key... but 1500 cals/day probably isn't going to get you there o_o

Patrick Yeung
11-08-2008, 12:38 PM
Just curious, how long do you expect to stay that lean?

Interested in what kind of bf% people have been able to keep daily. I mean, I can drop down to 6% or 7% in a couple weeks or so from 12%, but id be so tired/exhausted, and the minute I eat, id put it back on.

Hows that sayin go.. Easy come, easy go?

Ive also experienced weight gain, and there are studies (id link em, but im at work, so not much time) on too low a calorie diet. If you look at other people's posts, like Daniel Olmstead (http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3011), I believe there were a few timse where, his calories had dropped lower than usual, and he wasnt losing any more bf, but when he upped it, it started coomin off again.