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Liam Dougherty Springer
11-15-2008, 06:38 AM
I have made a pact with myself to get 8+ hours of sleep a night..... I have been failing. The past 3 nights I have been on ~5 hrs. a night!

I have been haveing a hard time getting the sleep in with my recent work schedule. Sometimes I am getting up at 4-5 in the morning and I cant seem to get to sleep before 10-11 at the earliest. I also tend to wake up every 3 hours to use the restroom and often will wake up 30-50 min before I need to be up and can't get back to bed. I take Naps sometimes but I don't know if that makes up for it and I worry it will make it difficult to sleep that night.... only problem is when I don't nap I still have a hard time getting to sleep. I am allergic to all sleep aid medications and don't know if they would interupt recovery anyway.

I am training hard in strength and explosive power eating a crap ton and PRing at every WO in some shape or fasion..... I know I need to get the sleep but on nights I have to work early the next day do the naps help?

Are there any suggestions as to herbal sleep aids that won't make me groggy the next morning etc.

Thanx all for your consideration.

Emily Mattes
11-16-2008, 11:40 AM
Have you tried melatonin? I also read on these boards that supplementing with magnesium helps sleep tremendously. I know I sleep a lot deeper on it.

Establishing good sleep patterns is also behavioral as much as anything else. Make sure you don't do anything in your bedroom/bed except for sleep, so you build the association. Try to finish workouts at least a few hours before going to bed, that can mess up some people's sleep schedules. Don't watch TV/go on the computer very late a night.

Garrett Smith
11-16-2008, 04:13 PM
Nothing that plugs into the wall, whether the plug, cord, or item itself, within a six feet radius of your head. This includes alarm clocks. Turning items off is not good enough.

No cell phones in your bedroom, especially not ones that are plugged in and charging.

This simple thing has fixed many people's sleep problems.

Gittit Shwartz
11-16-2008, 11:13 PM
Dr. G, any recommended reading on this?
What about a wireless computer network?... :confused:

Darryl Shaw
11-17-2008, 06:55 AM
The darker your bedroom is the better you sleep so if you're having problems you might find that blackout curtains help. Also your body should reduce your urine output at night so you shouldn't need to use the bathroom every couple of hours. If you discuss this with your doctor they'll probably want to check your prostate and test you for diabetes mellitus and diabetes insipidus but even if there's nothing wrong with you they might suggest trying some desmopressin tablets to see if they help.

Garrett Smith
11-17-2008, 08:00 AM
Gittit,
A wireless internet network would be a very bad thing to have close to your head while sleeping. This could be a very important piece of the puzzle for you.

Some links I found through searching for "EMF syndrome sensitivity":
http://www.spinspace.com/biophysics/emfsens.htm
http://cpbb.drofdetox.com/learnmore/Definition_emfss.pdf

This is a very real issue. Many people only show very "mild" symptoms of this issue, like insomnia or a seeming inability to reach a deep/refreshing state of sleep.

sarena kopciel
11-17-2008, 10:29 AM
Hope it helps; my blackout shades finally came today. I had ordered them back in July and three shipments came wrong. Finally the company got it right the 4th time!! Looking forward to sleeping tonight:)

Liam Dougherty Springer
11-17-2008, 03:44 PM
Thanx for all the input..... I will try the unplugging and I am gonna get some magnesium for before bed....

Darryl I am trippin off the you shouldn't wake up to go to the bathroom thing I am sure I am not diabetic but I guess I had better get the prostate checked I am only 29.....

Dr. G you have input on the urinating at night issue?:confused:

Grissim Connery
11-17-2008, 03:56 PM
i used to have a lot of problems with waking up to go to the bathroom at night. so i just stopped drinking much water within a few hours of bed. i would drink enough maybe to take a few pills, but just enough to get them down fine.

this sounds like a ridiculously straight forward answer to a problem that could be more severe, but it really could be that simple...worked for me

Garrett Smith
11-17-2008, 04:20 PM
Liam,
I give the same initial advice on urinating at night as Grissim did...if you drink less before bed (but the same amount daily), you'll likely end up needing to wake up less to pee at night.

I drink 3/4 gallon plus of fluids a day, I try to finish it before 6pm.

I have personally dealt with my own challenge with waking up more often than I'd like to pee in the middle of the night.

I have done several things to deal with this issue, I don't really have a problem now:
1. Cease drinking significant amounts of fluids at an earlier time of day (note not NO fluids, just much less after a certain time)
2. Relatively recently, I added some ZMA & GABA before bed, so I sleep like a baby (and likely don't notice I have to pee because I'm sleeping more soundly!).
3. I recently significantly increased my intake of a new controlled-release alpha-lipoic acid. I do very well on low-carbs, so an improved insulin sensitivity may play a role here (I'm linking this to the diabetes brought up previously).
4. I very much try to urinate when the urge strikes me these days. This is a large change from up until maybe a year or two ago, where if I needed to, I would hold my pee for many hours longer than I should have--because I had become used to doing it and simply because I could. I think this "trained" my system to ignore the proper signals, which led to its own sequelae, especially before bedtime and in the middle of the night.

See if any of the above things seem like they apply to you, and apply at your leisure.

Liam Dougherty Springer
11-17-2008, 05:19 PM
Thanx Dr. G.... I will apply the info... seriousely doubt I have Insulin sensitivity problems.... I am typicaly a lowish carb high fat paleo IF type of guy.... The ZMA is something I have really beem interested in but what is GABA?

Oh and I usually drink a ton of water but no where near 3/4 gallons.... when I am not IF ing I have a hard time consuming the amount of water I would like for fear of it interupting my digestion and right now as I am in a bulkin Phase I don't IF as much as usual. I am gonna get on the drinking more earlier though.:)

Darryl Shaw
11-18-2008, 05:38 AM
Thanx for all the input..... I will try the unplugging and I am gonna get some magnesium for before bed....

Darryl I am trippin off the you shouldn't wake up to go to the bathroom thing I am sure I am not diabetic but I guess I had better get the prostate checked I am only 29.....

Dr. G you have input on the urinating at night issue?:confused:

The reason you shouldn't wake up to go to the bathroom every night, well okay, you should wake up if you have to go lol, is because around sunset your pituitary gland releases a burst of vasopressin (antidiuretic hormone, ADH) which tells your kidneys to start concentrating urine so that your bladder doesn't fill overnight. Obviously if you're drinking excessive volumes of fluids at night there's a good chance your bladder will fill before dawn forcing you to get up but if you aren't drinking to excess then it's worth getting tested for the other two main causes of polyuria namely diabetes mellitus and diabetes insipidus.
Before going to the doctors though try reducing your fluid intake after sunset and don't get too worried if your urine gets darker as the evening wears on because that's just the ADH doing it's job.

Garrett Smith
11-18-2008, 10:35 AM
Liam, I meant 0.75 gallon (96 oz.), not "3 or 4" gallons. If I do a lot of exercise, I'll take in closer to a gallon or maybe more of water daily.

Liam Dougherty Springer
11-19-2008, 10:41 AM
Liam, I meant 0.75 gallon (96 oz.), not "3 or 4" gallons. If I do a lot of exercise, I'll take in closer to a gallon or maybe more of water daily.

I am Cracking up right now...... LOL just wouldn't cut it. :D

I was thinking I would be floating away. However durring long fasts I can easily consume well over a gallon.

Darryl cool info. on the ADH I will try and decrease fluid intake post sun set.:)

Nancy Woods
11-19-2008, 10:48 AM
The reason you shouldn't wake up to go to the bathroom every night, well okay, you should wake up if you have to go lol, is because around sunset your pituitary gland releases a burst of vasopressin (antidiuretic hormone, ADH) which tells your kidneys to start concentrating urine so that your bladder doesn't fill overnight. Obviously if you're drinking excessive volumes of fluids at night there's a good chance your bladder will fill before dawn forcing you to get up but if you aren't drinking to excess then it's worth getting tested for the other two main causes of polyuria namely diabetes mellitus and diabetes insipidus.
Before going to the doctors though try reducing your fluid intake after sunset and don't get too worried if your urine gets darker as the evening wears on because that's just the ADH doing it's job.

hello all,
Wow, you sure know your medical stuff, Darryl----thanks for the information.

I also use a herbal product called "Holy Basil" made by New Chapter company is the best one. It helps fight stress by supporting good adrenal function and balancing cortisol levels; and helps me sleep.

Cortisol is what the body produces when it thinks we have a "fight or flight" to deal with, but it dumps too much into our body and it is hard to process this out again. In the old days, or if you are still in a job where stress actually means a physical "life or death" issue; this cortisol is necessary.


help for....allergies (http://www.allergycontrol.com/)

Darryl Shaw
11-21-2008, 06:19 AM
Wow, you sure know your medical stuff, Darryl----thanks for the information.

Thanks but just so there's no confusion I should make it clear that I don't have any medical training or qualifications. The only reason I know anything about ADH is because my pituitary gland doesn't produce any so I have to take a synthetic form of vasopressin (ADH) to regulate my fluid balance.

Steven Low
11-21-2008, 09:40 AM
Thanks but just so there's no confusion I should make it clear that I don't have any medical training or qualifications. The only reason I know anything about ADH is because my pituitary gland doesn't produce any so I have to take a synthetic form of vasopressin (ADH) to regulate my fluid balance.
Diabetes insipidus. That sucks.

Is it genetic or from like trauma or something? If you don't mind me asking.

Darryl Shaw
11-22-2008, 04:04 AM
Diabetes insipidus. That sucks.

Is it genetic or from like trauma or something? If you don't mind me asking.

MRI scans show that the posterior lobe of my pituitary gland is malformed but because I've had all the symptoms of DI since childhood and there's no sign of trauma or tumors my diabetes insipidus has been diagnosed as being idiopathic.

Liam Dougherty Springer
02-18-2009, 12:02 PM
Follwed all above suggestions other than going to get tested for diabetes. and there has been improvement the biggest change has been since adding ZMA. I am going to get tested for Diabetes just gotta get some health insurence.

I now will often have a period of 4-6 hrs. without awakeing. sometimes two consecutive 3 hour periods still that is much better than I was doing. And I am gettin 7-9 hrs of total sleep / night. Overall if any one is haveing any similar problems try out this thread.

Craig Loizides
02-20-2009, 11:00 AM
Maybe sleeping through the night is unnatural and not the other way around:

http://fabulousforager.com/2008/01/sleep-the-clock-around/

Craig Brown
02-20-2009, 01:20 PM
Just a note of thanks for stating the obvious to all who did- cut back my fluid intake after about 3 hours before sleep and am sleeping great. If it was a snake...

Reed Winn
04-08-2009, 09:27 PM
I found an interesting paper that is partly about sleep quality. It's an assortment of self-experiments done by a grad student apparently. I admire his rigor!

http://repositories.cdlib.org/postprints/117/

Little is known about how to generate plausible new scientific ideas. So it is noteworthy that 12 years of self-experimentation led to the discovery of several surprising cause-effect relationships and suggested a new theory of weight control, an unusually high rate of new ideas. The cause-effect relationships were: (1) Seeing faces in the morning on television decreased mood in the evening (>10 hrs later) and improved mood the next day (>24 hrs later), yet had no detectable effect before that (0–10 hrs later). The effect was strongest if the faces were life-sized and at a conversational distance. Travel across time zones reduced the effect for a few weeks. (2) Standing 8 hours per day reduced early awakening and made sleep more restorative, even though more standing was associated with less sleep. (3) Morning light (1 hr/day) reduced early awakening and made sleep more restorative. (4) Breakfast increased early awakening. (5) Standing and morning light together eliminated colds (upper respiratory tract infections) for more than 5 years. (6) Drinking lots of water, eating low-glycemic-index foods, and eating sushi each caused a modest weight loss. (7) Drinking unflavored fructose water caused a large weight loss that has lasted more than 1 year. While losing weight, hunger was much less than usual. Unflavored sucrose water had a similar effect. The new theory of weight control, which helped discover this effect, assumes that flavors associated with calories raise the body-fat set point: The stronger the association, the greater the increase. Between meals the set point declines. Self-experimentation lasting months or years seems to be a good way to generate plausible new ideas.

Greg Davis
04-14-2009, 02:53 AM
Hey Liam- any update on how you're doing with the sleep issues?

I've been dealing with similar problems- I fall asleep fine and sleep well but keep waking up about 2 hours before I need to. (ie. around 3.30am when my alarm is set for 5.30am).. I find one of the biggest determinants to be making sure I get my dinner down at least a few hours before bedtime (as well as all the other stuff people chimed in with).

Still trying to sort this out tho.

Greg Davis
04-14-2009, 04:13 AM
Liam,

3. I recently significantly increased my intake of a new controlled-release alpha-lipoic acid. I do very well on low-carbs, so an improved insulin sensitivity may play a role here (I'm linking this to the diabetes brought up previously).



This is a pretty delayed question but do you find ALA stacks best in the AM mostly or would it be a good idea to take with most meals?

Garrett Smith
04-14-2009, 05:39 AM
Greg,
That I don't know. I would definitely take it with the higher/-est carb meals of the day for sure, other than that, it is up to you.