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Carl Chia
11-19-2008, 10:01 AM
For the Olympic lifter, should he/she do a deadlift that has the same positioning as the clean or the normal deadlift(Rippetoe)?

From what I understand:
Clean Deadlift = hip is lower. torso more upright. distance of shoulders in front of the bar is less, more vertical.

One thing I noticed is that the regular deadlift engages the hamstring more.

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-19-2008, 10:10 AM
Carl,
I think you hit the nail on the head.

My personal thought is that trainees should stimulate the muscles in various ways to make them stronger overall. As a result, varied stance/grip/body position in a limited seting would be great. However, on work sets, I believe the stance/grip/body position for the clean and snatch should be the same - or as close to the same as possible.

Deadlifts would be seen, in my opinion, as an "assistance exercise."

I too see the regular deadlift as you've described - hip is lower. torso more upright. distance of shoulders in front of the bar is less, more vertical.

For me, I get more engagement from my quads with the "clean deadlift" as you've described it. When I raise my hips more to get my shoulders in front of the bar to get in the position to perform a squat clean - I really feel a pre-stretch on my hamstrings and the hamstrings simply raise my hips and shoulders at the same time during the first pull.

On both the clean and the deadlift - I push my feet through the floor and bring my hips to the bar - but for me, the clean actually engages my lumbars more. It could just be me. But that's what I observe.

Don't know if that helps any?

All the best,
Arden

John Filippini
11-19-2008, 10:44 AM
This is something I've also been curious about. To add another question, I've sometimes gathered that clean or snatch deadlifts should be done with enough force to include a shrug. This idea has been pretty inconsistent though. Is that the intent here as well? Thanks.

Garrett Smith
11-19-2008, 11:07 AM
John,
A clean or snatch DL done with enough juice to finish with a shrug is referred to as a "clean pull" or a "snatch pull". See the exercises section on the PMenu mainpage for video demos.

John Filippini
11-19-2008, 11:55 AM
That's a good point. Silly that I'd gotten that confused about it really. Thanks!

Arien Malec
11-19-2008, 12:30 PM
A clean or snatch DL done with enough juice to finish with a shrug is referred to as a "clean pull" or a "snatch pull". See the exercises section on the PMenu mainpage for video demos.

I'd make a distinction between a clean pull done with acceleration and a shrug to finish, and a clean deadlift that finishes with a (slow, controlled, deliberate) shrug at the top.

Garrett Smith
11-19-2008, 01:49 PM
Good point, Arien.

Chris H Laing
11-19-2008, 04:52 PM
I too see the regular deadlift as you've described - hip is lower. torso more upright. distance of shoulders in front of the bar is less, more vertical.

When I raise my hips more to get my shoulders in front of the bar to get in the position to perform a squat clean...



I think your confused...or I am, but in a regular deadlift aren't the hips supposed to be higher than in a clean deadlift? Also, in a clean deadlift, shouldn't the shoulders be vertically over the bar, while in a regular deadlift they are slightly in front of it?

Have I been doing this wrong??

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-19-2008, 05:31 PM
I think your confused...or I am, but in a regular deadlift aren't the hips supposed to be higher than in a clean deadlift? Also, in a clean deadlift, shouldn't the shoulders be vertically over the bar, while in a regular deadlift they are slightly in front of it?

Have I been doing this wrong??

Chris,
I would NOT say you're doing anything wrong. I'm only speaking from my own perspective and my own training. I haven't trained anyone in a long time.

I hope to eventually become a competent coach. But for Olympic Lifting movements, I'm still learning.

With that said, when I teach someone to pull conventional deadlifts compared to the position for the clean - I have the hips lower, the shoulders over (not ahead) the bar - but that's just me. Other more competent folk may have a different opinion, and I completely respect that.

When I teach someone to pull - whatever movement, I look at their appendanges and their torso. I also take into consideration their strength training experience. I then look at how they squat before assessing what type of pull would be optimal. The point I'm trying to make is that we're all different and we have different backgrounds. A good coach/trainer needs to look at that - it's one of the reasons I advocate the use of multiple grips/foot stances/etc. from session to sessoin and even within the workout.

I doubt any of us could perform the conventional dead in the same manner as Andy Bolton. And look how much different his form is from awesome strongman Mark Felix. Andy has a close stance and a shoulder width grip. He sets his hips fairly high and his shoulders stay, I kid you not, almost behind the bar. Mark Felix uses a really wide stance, an even wider grip, and basically performs a Romanian Deadlift with more than 900 pounds - it's shocking. Then take Brian siders - a quad puller at it's finest, low hips, straight back, and he gets his shoulders over and somewhat behind the bar - even when he pulls conventional.

Don't know if any of that helps.? But I prefer a lower hip position for the deadlifts as compared to cleans, clean pulls, and clean stance RDL's, etc.

All the best,
Arden

Nick Borek
11-20-2008, 05:43 PM
Honestly, once the torso gets so vertical, is there any reason not just to do a sumo deadlift?

One of my favorite deadlifters I've seen, who I think is a lot more athletic and technically sound (better ROM and obvious lockout) is Konstantinovs.

He does use a round upper back, but thats mostly due to how friggin' tall he is -

4 Reps at 815. Love it-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6NTk8-Cu1I&feature=related

2 x 885.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaFr6WPgjfw&feature=related

Emily Mattes
11-20-2008, 06:58 PM
One of my coaches prescribed a clean deadlift followed by a shrug--NOT a pull, just get to the top, then try to shrug it up as best you can. But sometimes I think he's a sadist (then again, I feel like that's required for coaching).

Chris H Laing
11-21-2008, 03:23 AM
Chris,
But I prefer a lower hip position for the deadlifts as compared to cleans, clean pulls, and clean stance RDL's, etc.


Would you say that the higher hip position you take in cleans allows you to whip the bar up more? Because that's what I feel right now, and when I do cleans I have about the same position as my deadlift (high hips in both) but was under the impression I was doing it wrong...

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-21-2008, 05:07 PM
Would you say that the higher hip position you take in cleans allows you to whip the bar up more? Because that's what I feel right now, and when I do cleans I have about the same position as my deadlift (high hips in both) but was under the impression I was doing it wrong...

Yes. That position allows me to get, IMO, more body over the bar to have more leverage and power to apply to the bar during the second pull - but it builds from the first pull.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong. I wish we had a video or something to look at. If that makes any sense?

All the best,
Arden

Brian DeGennaro
11-21-2008, 06:36 PM
Everyone's start position is going to be different, all because of anthropomorphy. For me to stay over the bar I need to be a few inches lower than my "deadlift" set position, but definitely higher than say Greg's or Aimee's set position.

Chris H Laing
11-22-2008, 07:12 AM
Yes. That position allows me to get, IMO, more body over the bar to have more leverage and power to apply to the bar during the second pull - but it builds from the first pull.


Thats exactly the same feeling I have. Do you ever experience any bruised thighs from bouncing the bar off them at the start of the second pull?

It happens to me a lot when I position my shoulders in front of the bar and I think causes the bar to be slightly farther in front of my body than its supposed to be, which makes me have to jump forward slightly to catch it, which results in landing on my toes.

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-22-2008, 08:38 AM
Thats exactly the same feeling I have. Do you ever experience any bruised thighs from bouncing the bar off them at the start of the second pull?

It happens to me a lot when I position my shoulders in front of the bar and I think causes the bar to be slightly farther in front of my body than its supposed to be, which makes me have to jump forward slightly to catch it, which results in landing on my toes.

I've got a big ole bruise right at the top of my right quad right now from a clean session two days ago. But I like to think of where my bruise is at - because of my damn long arms (note they are great for deadlifting and woodchopping :o )- the very near the top of my second of pull. I like to bring the hips into the bar just prior to shrugging violently. Because of my long appendanges, I also try to lean back a bit or get a "head whip." This 'head whip" is not recommended. It's just something I think works for me at this stage, but I'm a complete novice in this stuff and have only been truly squat cleaning for the past 4 weeks.

The thigh bump we're describing can cause the bar to drift forward. And it's noted in my recent video comments from Allen in as much as I'm jumping forward to catch the bar. It's likely what caused the bruise on my right now - but I think I did it on the lighter sets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79q9ub_rRm4

All the best,
Arden

Greg Everett
11-22-2008, 09:25 PM
Chris -

What you described (i.e. more leverage) will only feel better until the weight gets heavier. Keep this in mind - if you have a longer lever (your back), guess what - the muscles that move that lever (i.e. extend the hip) have to work harder to move the same weight. You're creating a greater mechanical disadvantage by leaning farther over. This means more difficulty accelerating, more fatigue, and then ultimately less speed. It also means you're relying more on hip extension and less on leg extension, which means you're limiting the potential for vertical bar acceleration, not increasing it.

And yes, that higher hipped start will encourage the bar to bang against the thighs, and that is NOT, in ANY WAY, productive.

Many people will feel like this is a more powerful clean - but it's because they're doing the alternative (i.e. correct way) poorly.

Chris H Laing
11-23-2008, 04:08 PM
So, cleaning from a deadlift position is obviously detrimental to oly training, but what about deadlifting from a clean position, as opposed to deadlifting from a conventional starting position?

I read in one of the articles on this site, or maybe one of the workout quote things, that weightlifters should only deadlift from a clean position because, obviously, it develops a stronger first pull.

But shouldn't weightlifters work on the conventional deadlift at least a little bit, to engage the hamstrings more? because oly squating, whether overhead, front, or HB back, involves mostly the quads and glutes, right?

I guess if you were going to the olympics, or at least a high level competition, you would do as much to get the lifts right, and wouldn't worry about hamstring strength as much, but if your not really into competing, but are still interested in getting your oly lifts as strong as possible, would it be more beneficial to work dl's from the clean position only, or from both the clean and conventional positions?

Also...is there a way to tell if your doing the correct technique poorly, because i think that i might be...:o

Greg Everett
11-23-2008, 04:13 PM
Chris -

The concern for hamstring strength is largely unfounded - the more upright pulling posture does use more quad than if the hips were higher, but there is still a tremendous demand on the hamstrings.

There is no reason a more upright pull would negatively effect the deadlift - it would just start changing your deadlift style to a more upright position because you'd be stronger that way instead of the higher-hipped way. In either case, you're lifting the bar from the bottom to the top.

Chris H Laing
11-23-2008, 06:21 PM
Well im sold! Next time i deadlift ill be working on getting my hips lower. Thanks for the insight.

Carl Chia
11-23-2008, 09:28 PM
Thanks all for the replies. I will go with the clean deadlift. Maybe the regular deadlift here and then..

Chris H Laing
11-24-2008, 03:08 AM
BTW, Carl, sorry for kinda hijacking your thread.

Carl Chia
11-24-2008, 06:53 AM
don't worry, it's fine. Everyone gets to learn something new..

Brian Lawyer
01-31-2009, 11:21 AM
From what I understand:
Clean Deadlift = hip is lower. torso more upright. distance of shoulders in front of the bar is less, more vertical.


I am doing some research on this topic and came across this thread. I saw lots of discussion going back and forth but is what Carl described above the correct way we, as in O'Lifters, should be doing cleans?

I am coming from a Rippatoe training background. I got the book Starting Strength a couple years ago and studied it from front to back learning all the of Rip's techniques. Then about 4 or 5 months ago I got turned onto O'Lifting, so I am currently trying to unlearn basically everything I learned about lifting in SS....haha...seriously though, different squats (HB vs LB) different Deadlifts (clean vs Regular). My coach doesn't even want me doing just a plain press because he wants all my lifts to have some element of explosiveness (i.e. Push presses, power jerks, etc.)...

Donald Lee
01-31-2009, 01:22 PM
I am doing some research on this topic and came across this thread. I saw lots of discussion going back and forth but is what Carl described above the correct way we, as in O'Lifters, should be doing cleans?

I am coming from a Rippatoe training background. I got the book Starting Strength a couple years ago and studied it from front to back learning all the of Rip's techniques. Then about 4 or 5 months ago I got turned onto O'Lifting, so I am currently trying to unlearn basically everything I learned about lifting in SS....haha...seriously though, different squats (HB vs LB) different Deadlifts (clean vs Regular). My coach doesn't even want me doing just a plain press because he wants all my lifts to have some element of explosiveness (i.e. Push presses, power jerks, etc.)...

Have you read this thread?

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=39875