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dylan eddy
12-04-2008, 08:13 PM
i have a question about training the body to use more fat as fuel in endurance efforts.
my experience and research tells me that this adaptation is very usefull for ultra distance athletes, but i have always used LOTS of LSD training to achieve it in the past. as i have switched to a more CF approach to training i am wondering what i can do to maximise my gains in this area, without doing TOO much LSD (i actually enjoy some).

my thoughts so far:

a. low carb diet with LOTS of fat.

b. doing 60-90 minute moderately paced efforts in a fasted state.

c. pre-exhausting the glycogen in the specific muscle groups beforehand. (say squats before a bike ride or jump rope before a run.)

if it matters my diet now is about 50% fat 25/25 protien and carbs with a 3rd of those carbs coming post workout as per some of Robb Wolfs recommendations. i commute on my bike and am doing a strength biased version of CF at the moment.

im getting set to do a marathon, a 50 miler, and a 12 hour MTB race in the next 6 months its gonna be AWESOME!!

any feedback recommendations?

Steven Low
12-04-2008, 08:29 PM
Easiest way to force yourself is the change in diet such as in A. You'll probably feel like crap for maybe a week or two depending on how fast your body can adapt though.

Both B and C will work to lesser extents.

dylan eddy
12-04-2008, 08:50 PM
DANG that was fast!
you must live online steven.
thanks

How low do the carbs need to be to cause the adaptation? do they really need to be cut back a ton? or is it more a question of doing enough work to burn through what you take in?

dylan eddy
12-04-2008, 09:03 PM
never mind!
i used the search and found lots of good answers to the last question.
thanks again

Grissim Connery
12-04-2008, 10:00 PM
wait holdup. are you running 50 miles?! straight? do you have to train for that on the interstate?

Steven Low
12-05-2008, 04:45 AM
wait holdup. are you running 50 miles?! straight? do you have to train for that on the interstate?
Haven't heard of ultra marathons before?

Daniel Labuz
12-05-2008, 05:47 AM
Check out Wasatch 100, it's 100 miles with like 27,000' elevation gain, just thinking about it makes me shed tears

25% doesn't seem like a low carb diet to me, usually under 20-15% do you get into the low area and anything under 10% would most likely put you in ketosis depending on how many calories you are eating.

Steven Low
12-05-2008, 12:35 PM
Here's what Lyle recommends (chart at the bottom):

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohdyrates-do-you-need.html

But obviously getting fat adapted isn't in his overall thinking there.

Mike ODonnell
12-05-2008, 01:50 PM
50+ miles is far from a glycolitic based energy system.....I say do low carb, high fat for the most part....every 3days do a strength training session and reload muscle glycogen (CKD stuff)....it will be like rocket fuel on your next run. Of course I drive anything over 5 miles....but you'll find something that works.

dylan eddy
12-06-2008, 11:08 PM
thanks for the replies guys!

MOD do you mean do a strength session on low glycogen, then reload, followed by 2 days of low carbs while running/biking? why put the strength day at the end of the cycle instead of the start when im well fueled?

also whats CKD stuff?

Grissim Connery
12-08-2008, 12:47 AM
what's going through your mind on a fifity mile run. it seems impossible to keep a competitive mindset for the whole time.

when nobody's looking, strap on the roller blades.

dylan eddy
12-08-2008, 02:13 PM
yeah i dont think ultras are competetive in the same way that say a 10k is. its more solitary and introspective, they are very zen! lol

George Mounce
12-09-2008, 06:54 PM
I've read many stories of the 24-hour runs, and people hallucinate throughout the night. While I've been sleep deprived many, many times throughout my flying career, I didn't want to be flying when I was doing it, and I sure as heck don't want to be running! :p

dylan eddy
12-10-2008, 05:20 PM
Heh... that actually happened to me during a 12 hour mtb race in 105 degree weather...dehydrated and started seeing stuff in my periferal vision, colors and inanimate objects moving around. really weird. called it quits when i crashed on a flat straight peice of trail... rode right off the course, didnt even notice till i wrecked:eek:

dylan eddy
12-10-2008, 05:23 PM
as for the original post i will be dropping my carb intake this week. aiming for 50-100 grams a day max, and eating fat and protien till i feel full.
we'll see how it goes....

Mike Prevost
12-13-2008, 06:41 AM
i have a question about training the body to use more fat as fuel in endurance efforts.
my experience and research tells me that this adaptation is very usefull for ultra distance athletes, but i have always used LOTS of LSD training to achieve it in the past. as i have switched to a more CF approach to training i am wondering what i can do to maximise my gains in this area, without doing TOO much LSD (i actually enjoy some).

my thoughts so far:

a. low carb diet with LOTS of fat.

b. doing 60-90 minute moderately paced efforts in a fasted state.

c. pre-exhausting the glycogen in the specific muscle groups beforehand. (say squats before a bike ride or jump rope before a run.)

if it matters my diet now is about 50% fat 25/25 protien and carbs with a 3rd of those carbs coming post workout as per some of Robb Wolfs recommendations. i commute on my bike and am doing a strength biased version of CF at the moment.

im getting set to do a marathon, a 50 miler, and a 12 hour MTB race in the next 6 months its gonna be AWESOME!!

any feedback recommendations?

Hi Dylan

I don't think the science is conclusive in this area yet. Any type of aerobic training will train fat metabolism. Trained muscles are better at burning fat and tend to store more intramuscular fat. This happens no matter what you eat. It is unclear whether training in a fasted state or after consuming fat will enhance this adaptation further. It is known that exercising after a fat meal will lead to an increased reliance on fat rather than carbohydrates.

A few suggestions....If you are on a low carb diet, you can take advantage of whatever adaptations you have and still maximize gyycogen storage, just in case. Continue to eat low carb but 3 days before your race, consume plenty of carbohydrates to maximize muscle glycogen stores for 2 days while you are tapering. Then on race day, consume your traditional high protein, high fat meal prior to the race to stimulate fat oxidation during the run (you burn what you eat immediately prior to the race). The glycogen that you stored in your muscles 2 days prior will still be there but your body will want to burn fat first, since that was what you ate pre race.

Once carbs are moved into the muscles, they are effectively trapped inside of the muscles and cannot be used to increase blood sugar (unlike liver glycogen). They must be burned by the muscles to fuel activity. This is good because it will be available for you during your run. You get the best of both worlds, muscles full of glycogen with the fat oxidation adaptations from a low carb diet and low carb/high fat meal immediately before competition. You might need that stored glycogen in the final few miles.

This has been shown to be effective in rats but I am not sure that there are enough human studies to say for sure that it is optimal. However, it is a low risk approach for somebody already on a low carb diet.

Mike

Patrick Yeung
12-20-2008, 06:41 PM
First, ive done a lot of research on this subject and was very interested in this type of training, but I am by no way an expert, so read with caution (and welcome to discussion)

Ive competed in Marathons, Tris and Xterras.

First, what are you familar with now? Why are you trying to change it?

From here on out, I wont be able to produce studies at the moment, but if you look for it online, youll find it. A lot of this is from TriFuel and other similar sites.

Im with Mike in saying that getting your body to burn fat during your long runs is a product of well, long running. This happens because your body can only absob something like 300-400 calories an hour, but will obviously burn well in excess of this every hour of that run. Your body then learns to burn fat and use that as fuel when that is burned out.

I am familar with low carb diets and their principles, but I beleive those are more suitable for power lifting applications than in this case. I may be wrong, but when I was on a low carb diet while training, my long runs suffered.


Whats your training scheduel look like now too?
Between runs/lifting.

Heres a way to put it into perspective though. Lets say your 50 mile race takes ya about... 7 hours to finish? Thats a lot of fuel and liquids youll need to replace during that run. What do you plan on eating? Fat? Probably more likely fruits/nuts and or gels/gus or some sort. I think we can all agree that sugar burns much faster than fat, and thats probably what youll want during a race. Youll never be able to put in enough fuel into those muscle 'carb loading' only 2 days before to last you through anything over 3 hours at race effort.

Carbs are better for long distance run fueling ( >4 hours) IMO

Besides, the training involved in distance running burns so many calories, just eat everything in sight and taper/clean up towards the end.

Mike Prevost
12-21-2008, 07:24 AM
For some more thoughts on this check out pro triathlete Gordo Byrn's articles. He is a strict Paleo diet athlete. However, he has had extensive conversations with Dr. Cordain about how paleo falls apart a bit for endurance athletes. Gordo, guided by Dr. Cordain, recommends some adjustments to paleo to suit endurance athletes. It is a reasonable approach and has served Gordo well. www.coachgordo.com (W/F/S)

Daniel Labuz
12-21-2008, 07:35 AM
Thanks, was looking for an endurance athlete that was successful using the Paleo Diet.

Patrick Yeung
12-21-2008, 11:03 AM
I was thinking about this more yesterday, and thought back to Crossfit Endurance.

Their training philosophy could make a high fat/protein diet possible, because they do not include any long runs in their work outs really. Nothing longer than half marathons from what ive seen.

However, if you are doing a more traditional training program, long run/interval/recovery runs, then youd be better off on a carb loaded diet. So, maybe a paleo meal style like Mike suggested. My diet while training was pretty paleo without knowing it.

It really depends on your body, and itll take at least a couple weeks, if not a month for any signifigant differences to be noticable.

And to Daniel, I know of a couple elite Ironman Triathletes/cyclist that are on a raw vegan diets.

Daniel Labuz
12-21-2008, 04:13 PM
Does raw vegan mean no grains? I know a few vegans who literally survive off them

Patrick Yeung
12-21-2008, 06:38 PM
Does raw vegan mean no grains? I know a few vegans who literally survive off them

Pretty much. The only grains that a raw vegan would be able to eat are ones that have been soaked for long periods of time, with no heat applied.

Though, I remember there were these people eating raw cereals, which were really 'toasted' which were pretty much soaked grains then dehydrated or toasted at low temp to lose moisture. (They say its not high enough to count or something silly like that to make themselves feel better)

dylan eddy
12-21-2008, 09:07 PM
wow lots of replies!
my background has been pretty traditional endurance stuff. ive done a couple xterras, found mountain biking through them, and moved into 12-24 hour MTB races.

all this was done on a pretty traditional diet and training plan. last year i moved, and discovered Crossfit. been at it just over a year. i am currently eating about 85% paleo and have been making steady gains in strength, ect.
but like i said in the OP im running a marathon and a 50 miler with family in the next six months. i plan to continue doing a hybrid WOD meantime, to hold onto as much strength as i can.

im just having fun learning how my body responds to all this stuff, and was curious about the most effective methods to improve fat metabolisim, as ive lost alot of the long distance fitness i had when i was racing MTBs.

thanks for all the good info!!

im also seriously considering doing CF/CFE black box style just to see how it turns out

Patrick Yeung
12-22-2008, 11:09 AM
Well, the only reason why I never stuck with CFE, on top of now im more interested in shorter, sprint type races, was that, I just didnt see how running 5k repeats would be able to prepare you for a 50 mile race.

I mean... Unless youve gone out there and put that kind of time in, how could you possibly be mentally prepared to take a beating like that, let alone physicly.

Ive recently started taking BCAAs and been reading a lot about them. It appears that they may of greatest benefit to Endurance Athletes, namely because they will help maintain enough protein in the muscles so you do not enter a catabolic state. Might be worth looking in to. I take 5g fasted before lifting, and I feel like ive just eaten a danish or something, it gives me a ton of energy. Then, 5 afterwards.

If youre interested in the reading, ill scounge around and try and find it agian. And if you do buy it, buy capsules... I bought powder and its the most foul thing Ive ever had.

Whatever you do, keep me up to date, im interested to see it works for ya sametime next month. I wouldnt mind going and doing xterras again, but I like these new muscles too much...