View Full Version : Mass & Strength advice

james forshaw
12-09-2008, 02:27 PM
For about a year now, probably more, I've maintained a bodyweight of 77kg (about 7ish% BF) at 5"10 in height and my strength has marginally increased in this time. I'm finally tiring of this current state and wish to increase both my size and my O-lifts.

BW - 77kg
CFT - around 400kg
C+J - 95kg

I want to get to a lean 83kg and really try to make serious headway with my O-lifts and squatting, which have stagnated badly of late. My plan was to do the PM mass (A) gain cycle which I purchased from this site with GOMAD a day, then to shred and maintain using Gant's Hybrid programme (my default programme). All I want to know really, is this mass gain cycle the best way of gaining strength as well as mass? I figure I don't eat enough as it is (which is probably why I've plateaued), and I really want to make this period of eating lots count in the biggest way possible.

George Mounce
12-09-2008, 02:51 PM
I would do the O-lifts and squats and eat huge. Is there a reason you want 83kg? Because people much less than 83kg are deceptively very, very strong and don't require the mass.

Gant Grimes
12-09-2008, 02:58 PM
Practice the snatch and CJ because that's what you want to do. Rely on squats, presses, and deadlifts to put the pounds on. Don't worry about the other crap. Lift big, eat big, rest big, be big.

Mike ODonnell
12-09-2008, 03:19 PM
When in doubt...eat more.

james forshaw
12-10-2008, 09:15 AM
Thanks guys. I know what I have to eat for the mass. My current nutrition is 16 blocks of the Zone tweaked according to Robb Wolf (low carbs, loads of fat) and I'd be pushing 20+ a day plus GOMAD so getting the weight on shouldn't be an issue.
I figure 83kg because I like to have something solid to compare myself to, nothing more. 77kg currently, as this is an MMA and Olympic weightlifting category, so it's just real easy to draw comparisons from those areas. 83kg is the next category up.
So Gant, would you recommend SS with O-lift practice thrown in? The worry I have about doing the mass (A) routine from this site is that the O-lifts are practiced using only 60% of 1RM, and it doesn't seem like I'm going to progress much doing that - this is purely wonderment, for all I know the programme could be amazing. I just want a routine that will get me 6kg of muscle in 8-12 weeks, increase strength as much as it can, but one (if possible) that ensures it won't be a huge shock when I go back to Gant's programme immediately after - In my heart of hearts I'm willing to compromise on the last one.

Mike ODonnell
12-10-2008, 09:27 AM
a routine that will get me 6kg of muscle in 8-12 weeks

You can easily get 6kg of weight in 8-12 weeks....whether it is all muscle or not is another question. You'll have to tweak as you go....because if you are putting on more fat than muscle in the beginning then you will want to change something up. Milk makes me gain fat easier....so I'd rather load up on healthy fats/meat and carb loads on occasion for lean gains. Know your body and you will control your results.

Dave Van Skike
12-10-2008, 10:09 AM
I have never been in this postion, (sub 9%) looking to get bigger, but concerned about total leanness......so I am only repeatign what I have heard adn part of what I have seen to be true at more moderate levels of BF.

To the thousands of times that folks have thought to aks this question the answer is nearly always the same.

this will sound a bit snotty..it is not intended that way.. I truly belive it is exactly this simple.

Option A)

forget weight, quit measuring BF and lift heavy with a surplus of good Kcal until you're unhappy with your appearance and then pick among the varied cutting appraoches to cut the fat off. a lot of them work, find one that works for you... I like harrd and nasty (protein fast) to cut down to BF levels I'm comfortable with.

This is how most natural athletes do it. If you get really unhappy with your BF at 12%, you may not really want to be Strong. ( there's nothing wrong with that. We need to sell mountain bikes, tennis raquets and golf clubs to stimulate the economy)

Option b)

ultra dialed diet with a moderate surplus of Kcal and and and two 6 week cycles and one 2 week cycle per year of test and coupled with a strong androgenic compound like trenbolone...

this is how Ben Johnson did it.

james forshaw
12-10-2008, 12:45 PM
I think that 12% is a very high lower-limit for being strong. The small/medium weightlifting categories clearly contain some lifters under 9%. I hear what you're saying though, that I'm overthinking all this, and it's starting to make me feel a little bit foolish in that respect because I think I know the answer to my own question.
A more specific question would be: forget the mass thing, that's sorted - is working out with 60% of your O-lift 1RMs (as in the programme I'm looking at) going to get me strong at O-lifting? There is no mention of setting new 1RMs at any point except for the last week, so if 60% of my 1RM CJ is 55kg, then I'm going to be working out with 55kg for months - interesting.

Incidentally, my bf is comfortably under 12% and I hate cycling, tennis and golf.

Dave Van Skike
12-10-2008, 01:25 PM
Didn't mean to say that 12% is a lower limit, you can be as strong as you can be at whatever BF. I think that the greater number of folks out there trying to get stronger should not worry about bodyfat untill it's into unhealthy ranges.

Certainly there are a lot of power athletes (Oly lifting) that are under 10%, the ones that are not on drugs are likley a little higher during training and then work there way down a few pounds to make the class. just like fighters, strenght athletes compete lighter than they train in a lot of cases.

Gant Grimes
12-10-2008, 01:33 PM
I have never been in this postion, (sub 9%) looking to get bigger, but concerned about total leanness

WTF? Say it ain't so, DVS. Why so lean? Are you trying to stay in the under-200 class for SM?

I hear what you're saying though, that I'm overthinking all this

Yes, you are. If you want to be an OLer, then dedicate yourself to being an OLer. You'll need to spend a couple years building your foundation strength while working on your technique. In other words, don't worry about staying at a certain weight until you're ready to make some noise. Lift, eat, and practice. The answer to 90% of your questions right now is "more."

Dave Van Skike
12-10-2008, 04:15 PM
WTF? Say it ain't so, DVS. Why so lean? Are you trying to stay in the under-200 class for SM?


allow me to clarify, I have never....ever ...ever been under 10%...Hellz..when I was on racing road, mountain and track bikes competing 100 plus times a year I never dropped below 10. Frankly, when I was a bike messenger I was probably close to 12% adn I was freeeezing cold all the f'ing time...
So yeah, I believe in fat. big time.

Gant Grimes
12-11-2008, 09:41 AM
I feel better now.