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Dave Van Skike
01-13-2009, 12:15 PM
even if you're not a gearhead, you'll get something. message in this vid. Check it.

http://dreams.honda.com/#/video_fa

Kevin Perry
01-13-2009, 02:05 PM
dad always said a person needs to learn how to fail before they can succeed.

Derek Maffett
01-13-2009, 05:42 PM
So in other words -

"Yeah, we mess up a lot, and sometimes the engines we make explode, but it's all for the best since we learn from our mistakes and get better. And we will continue to learn from our mistakes."

And that's supposed to make me want to buy a Honda car?

As for the Edison reference, that example is overused in the extreme. Yes, his trial-and-error methods are nice for the whole "If at first you don't succeed, nado, nado..." cliche, but I much prefer the Tesla model, which uses less trial, less error, and more intelligence, study, AC, and radio.

Edison did teach us how to properly outdoor barbecue an elephant, though. That's cool, even if he only did so to try and discredit the competition (that won out in the end anyways). I wonder how good elephant meat is... they're kind of like large pigs, so...

And what about this quote from him - "Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration."

That's not a very good description of genius, but interestingly, it is a reasonably accurate description of Crossfit, which itself could be said to be partially genius, and works along the lines of most proper exercise research which actually uses a lot of trial and error, which would seem to help prove Edison's point, except for the fact that exercise science doesn't work quite the same way as other sciences tend to.

Dave Van Skike
01-13-2009, 06:03 PM
we'll have to agree that you didn't get it....

I am of course biased, I have great admiration for Soichiro Honda and his rise from a rinky dink moped maker totally dominating whichever motorsport has caught his eye... an using what is learned on the track to build what is hands down the most successful motorcycle company in the world...



the cross fit analogy that makes sense is hip hop....if you hybridize and borrow and dumb down enough good things, you'll eventually come up with a sort of new thing.

George Mounce
01-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Honda the most successful? Uh, no.

It didn't even make the list of the most successful cars. Toyota by far.

Patrick Donnelly
01-13-2009, 09:58 PM
Edit: Sorry. Certain internet catchphrases back from my online gaming days are creeping back into my vocabulary. I've been spending too much time reading online message boards.


Anyway, good video, Dave.

Dave Van Skike
01-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Honda the most successful? Uh, no.

It didn't even make the list of the most successful cars. Toyota by far.
my bad...edited for reality.

Derek Maffett
01-14-2009, 02:39 AM
we'll have to agree that you didn't get it....

I am of course biased, I have great admiration for Soichiro Honda and his rise from a rinky dink moped maker totally dominating whichever motorsport has caught his eye... an using what is learned on the track to build what is hands down the most successful motorcycle company in the world...



the cross fit analogy that makes sense is hip hop....if you hybridize and borrow and dumb down enough good things, you'll eventually come up with a sort of new thing.

I'm not saying that Honda isn't necessarily almost a good company. Edison was also a non-terrible inventor. What I'm saying is that I'll much sooner side with the company that tends not to mess up very often over the company that got where it is through significant trial and error. I'd prefer not to be a part of that "error" if at all possible. Furthermore, that video looked suspiciously like a foreshadowing of unexplained explosions, gas fumes, ozone layer disruption, general chaos, and Tom Cruise.

The humorous alternative meaning to "inspiration," coupled with the word "perspiration" and relating to metcon, was the reason for my final statement. Therefore, the Crossfit analogy was more similar to the unsensical ramblings of a mad genius than it was to a hamburger.

Allen Yeh
01-14-2009, 04:36 AM
I'm not saying that Honda isn't necessarily almost a good company. Edison was also a non-terrible inventor. What I'm saying is that I'll much sooner side with the company that tends not to mess up very often over the company that got where it is through significant trial and error. I'd prefer not to be a part of that "error" if at all possible. Furthermore, that video looked suspiciously like a foreshadowing of unexplained explosions, gas fumes, ozone layer disruption, general chaos, and Tom Cruise.


What is your profession? I'll take a wild guess here and say not anything related to engineering?

The last bit about the foreshadowing? Come on.

Allen Yeh
01-14-2009, 04:36 AM
Good video Dave, thanks.

George Mounce
01-14-2009, 04:45 AM
we'll have to agree that you didn't get it....

I am of course biased, I have great admiration for Soichiro Honda and his rise from a rinky dink moped maker totally dominating whichever motorsport has caught his eye... an using what is learned on the track to build what is hands down the most successful motorcycle company in the world...



the cross fit analogy that makes sense is hip hop....if you hybridize and borrow and dumb down enough good things, you'll eventually come up with a sort of new thing.

That I will agree with, I have owned two Honda motorcycles and they bar far were much better than their American counterparts. The next I get will most definitely be a Honda.

Derek Maffett
01-14-2009, 06:24 AM
What is your profession? I'll take a wild guess here and say not anything related to engineering?

You might say that there's a potential distant relation to companies like Honda, actually.

I'm simply saying that 10,000 failures and one success means nothing more than that you messed up a lot but eventually managed to do something useful. If someone else can manage the same success with only a couple hundred failures, then he's proved that you were just wasting your time with messing up a lot.

The lady who was tasked with the car color design. She took a chance, followed her instincts, and made an orange car. Her bosses decided to trust her. What they found out in the end was that it was a horrible mistake which could have cost the company a lot if the dealers hadn't spoken up. The mistake did nothing to further the art of car design, since the information that orange was a bad color was probably very much available at the time (else the dealers might not have balked at the idea).

When a mistake is made that you learn from, it hasn't been completely wasted, but the attempt itself was a failure. If you make a mistake that you fail to learn enough from, then you are being inefficient with your failures. If you make a mistake that you learn nothing from, then you have just completely wasted both time and resources. And if you make a mistake that a reasonable amount of study would have prevented, then that's not much more than stupidity (or perhaps laziness or insufficient training or deadlines, but the last two might just indicate stupidity on the part of management).

The glory isn't in the failure, it's in the learning from it. And that type of learning is generally best replaced by study, theory work, and computations which will help bypass a great many failures (thus conserving both time and money). Unnecessary failure and learning from said failure when the same learning could have been achieved through more efficient means is not a good thing.

As for the rest... it was humor.

Garrett Smith
01-14-2009, 07:32 AM
Nice hip hop analogy.

Gant Grimes
01-14-2009, 08:55 AM
Solid video, Dave. But you forgot "put a new name on it and trademark it" in your analogy.

Ahh, to be risk averse...I wonder what that's like. Then I realize I don't care.

Allen Yeh
01-14-2009, 09:32 AM
The glory isn't in the failure, it's in the learning from it. And that type of learning is generally best replaced by study, theory work, and computations which will help bypass a great many failures (thus conserving both time and money). Unnecessary failure and learning from said failure when the same learning could have been achieved through more efficient means is not a good thing.


I guess we got something completely different from the video. To me they were not glorifying failure but highlighting the fact that through failure can come success. Being afraid of failing can lead to being averse to taking a risk which in my field at least leads to being stagnant.

Study, theory and computations are just that. In the projects that I have been worked on, run and reviewed in various engineering disciplines. No amount of study, theory and computations can circumvent the failures that will follow. Of course you need to try to think things through and all that, I'm not saying you shouldn't and I don't think the video was saying they shouldn't either. No matter how much you plan, study...etc you will not be able to circumvent failures. What I've learned and what I've garnered in my years is that failure is about what you can take away from it and move on rather than trying to avoid failure all the time.

Dave Van Skike
01-14-2009, 10:39 AM
Solid video, Dave. But you forgot "put a new name on it and trademark it" in your analogy.

Ahh, to be risk averse...I wonder what that's like. Then I realize I don't care.

WRT to Hip Hop, for the record, I'm a fairly devoted fan of both Jay-Z and Merle Haggard.

to pile on to Allen's point, I think it's the fear of failure that is crippling. mistakes are good, mistake represent attempts along the path, if you won't allow for that most powerful learning experience, you'll not advance..period.

The idea of 10,000 atttempts versus 100 attempts is a red herring. the point is the mindset that is required. the Beginner's Mind and the the freedom that comes from that. Perfect is the enemy of the Good.

Gant Grimes
01-14-2009, 11:25 AM
Agreed. I'm wondering if we all watched the same video.

Derek Maffett
01-14-2009, 02:51 PM
Yes, failure will happen and we should not be hampered by it, but determination doesn't mean anything if you're still trying to drill through the mountain after everybody else has gone around it or invented airplanes.

Learning the hard way and succeeding is not preferable to learning the easy way and succeeding. Determination is important for both types of people, but the smarter guy is going to go farther. I like companies that don't have to justify many failures more than those who do (provided, naturally, that they both get to a comparable level of technology, which is, again, the most important thing).

If Honda has gotten to be the best motorcycle company in the world because of their failures (or rather their learning from those failures), then very well. But I'm quite sure they didn't get there by molly-coddling their employees and tolerating those who were unproductive and generally royal screw-ups. If they did, then that speaks very badly about the competition.

Derek Maffett
01-14-2009, 03:07 PM
Perfect is the enemy of the Good.

Only until someone comes along who proves that it's possible to get closer to perfection than you thought you could. There's realistic and then there's lack of either ambition or knowledge. Edison thought his DC current was more realistic (safe, or maybe it was a money thing), and so didn't accept AC current which we now use today.

It's a thin line. Too much ambition or too little ambition can be unproductive. Too much demand for zero failures can cause stagnation, while too much acceptance of it is wasteful. Those who live at the edge of "too much" succeed more than those who live in the middle. You might actually argue that Tesla went partially over the line as so many of his inventions were never made, but if those patents were made and actually worked, then was he really?

Dave Van Skike
01-14-2009, 04:50 PM
I shall hastily write to my good friend at Honda N America to chide him for all his mollycoddling middle managers.....

who is tesla?

Derek Maffett
01-14-2009, 05:11 PM
I shall hastily write to my good friend at Honda N America to chide him for all his mollycoddling middle managers.....

That's not what I said.

But I'm quite sure they didn't get there by molly-coddling their employees and tolerating those who were unproductive and generally royal screw-ups.



who is tesla?

Nicola Tesla. Essentially a genius (my opinion, you can judge for yourself). Google.

Dave Van Skike
01-14-2009, 07:14 PM
i was goosing you...

of course, I know tesla..they just put a new album.

http://www.teslatheband.com/

http://www.maximum-ink.com/i3/tesla-7-07-325.jpg

Kevin Perry
01-14-2009, 08:22 PM
hehe :D

Derek Maffett
01-14-2009, 08:23 PM
Yeah, them. Amazing research into hair lengthening technology. The lead singer's doctoral thesis was mind-blowing.

Allen Yeh
01-17-2009, 11:10 AM
I know it's Nike but I still like this commercial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc&feature=related

Derek Maffett
01-17-2009, 01:38 PM
Hehe. His failure level is over 9,000!!

Oh, come on. Everyone was thinking it.

And incidentally, he does not succeed by failing over and over and over again. He succeeds because he doesn't fail too incredibly much. If failure were the reason for success, everyone could be a star basketball player.

He didn't mention one single word about learning from his failures.

Mike ODonnell
01-17-2009, 02:58 PM
Wayne Gretsky once said "You miss 100% of the shots you never take"....that and it's fun hitting the lights, glass, boards, defensemen and other random objects and people with some bad aim once in a while.....

Derek Maffett
01-17-2009, 03:31 PM
that and it's fun hitting the lights, glass, boards, defensemen and other random objects and people with some bad aim once in a while.....

That is a perfect example of a time where failure equals success.

Dave Van Skike
01-17-2009, 07:15 PM
Ascending Soapbox.

I'm not sure why this matters but here goes.

Derek, what you're clearly not understanding or at best dismissing is the fundamental nature of learning and knowing process that this discussion gets at.

Yes, learning from mistakes is good. fewer mistakes would seem to be better, somewhere out there is an engineer who can figure stuff out on paper first and execute the first time or the 50th time..I met this guy at a bar once...he was hella boring.

that is not the point.

in between pursuing success and avoiding mistakes is a balance point. those that find it, do well and enjoy themselves. those that don't are forever mired in suckatude and become lawyers and/or engineers and/or planners.

the balance point in my mind hinges on two things experience and judgment. Without experience, (first hand..flat on your face screw up experience)..you don't acquire judgment....

what do I mean by judgment? What I mean is that if you have acquired enough experiences and reflected on what you have seen and done, you can look at set of new circumstances, and make a reasoned stab at the right answer and execute on a level that theorists cannot. It is my belief that herein lies genius.

Bobby Fisher
Michael Jordan
Brett Favre
Soichiro Honda

people who worry about making mistakes spend a lot of time and energy amounting to nothing. at the very least, those that don''t sweat it and let it ride as best they can have more fun taking the thousand shots that miss than the guys riding the bench wringing their hands.

"“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” TR.

descending soapbox.

David Aguasca
01-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Besides, Honda makes ROBOTS. They can walk up stairs and jog and dance...they have a jogging, stair-walking, dancing robot army. Where's your robot army, Derek?

Derek Maffett
01-26-2009, 08:03 PM
people who worry about making mistakes spend a lot of time and energy amounting to nothing. at the very least, those that don''t sweat it and let it ride as best they can have more fun taking the thousand shots that miss than the guys riding the bench wringing their hands.

I don't think we're so much in disagreement, here. I absolutely agree that it's better to be the one trying than to be the one too afraid of failure to try. But even better is the person who is simultaneously tries and succeeds. That's all.

Besides, Honda makes ROBOTS. They can walk up stairs and jog and dance...they have a jogging, stair-walking, dancing robot army. Where's your robot army, Derek?

I do not have a robot army. Who told you that? Because they were lying. I do not have a robot army. We apologize for any disappointment you may have suffered on account of this misconception. However, there will be... cake.

Yuen Sohn
01-29-2009, 07:12 PM
Besides, Honda makes ROBOTS. They can walk up stairs and jog and dance...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YruAOxWG5uU

David Aguasca
02-02-2009, 05:11 PM
I do not have a robot army. Who told you that? Because they were lying. I do not have a robot army. We apologize for any disappointment you may have suffered on account of this misconception. However, there will be... cake.

...cake...cake????

CAKE IS A LIE, DEREK. THE CAKE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A DIRTY LIE.