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Donald Lee
01-20-2009, 09:19 PM
I've been doing the Advanced Frog Stand (straight arm), and I feel pain when I let go. During the Adv. Frog Stand, I don't feel any pain, but once I let go of the tension, an intense pain bursts through my shoulders. It feels like an impingement. I do dips without any pain, so impingement hasn't been a problem for me in the past.

The pain hasn't been so great that it was hindering me, but I've recently begun doing Bulgarian Dips, which makes my front deltoids tender. I did Bulgarian Dips yesterday, and today, the pain in my shoulders while doing Adv. Frog Stand was like x10 of the usual. It got a bit better later in the workout though.

Does anybody have similar experiences while training for the planche?

Steven Low
01-20-2009, 09:33 PM
Yeah, I used to get that.

Massage/tennis ball them shoulders (both from and back) everytime you think of it.

I assume it's cause they're tight and there's a lot of adhesions pulling on the nerves and such.. but really not sure. :) Goes away if you get your shoulder healthier.

Garrett Smith
01-21-2009, 05:11 AM
Are you doing any back lever or front lever progressions? That might help balance out the strength front-to-back.

Sounds like the Bulgarian dips are really aggravating things too. You might want to go easy on them or take a break from them for a while.

Gittit Shwartz
01-21-2009, 06:08 AM
That's interesting. I get the same thing in my forearms whenever I release tension in palms supinated position - letting go of the bar after a chin-up, coming down from tucked planche with palms reversed. No pain during the exercise itself. Will try massaging them and see if that changes anything.

Garrett Smith
01-21-2009, 07:34 AM
Gittit,
I had what I believe was a similar forearm pain to yours. I got rid of it by always doing wrist prehab--closed and open-chain mobility and a little stretching--before my gymnastics (this is a big part of the routine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2w1PeSR8G4)). Since that time, I also stopped doing my planches on parallettes (that was the worst for me) and now do them on the floor (fingers forward).

I also did some laser therapy (3-4 sessions) and changed how I hold my daughter on my arm--instead of holding her with my forearm fully supinated, I rotate my forearm to a more "neutral" position. I definitely made sure I avoided all nightshades during this period. Holiday cheat eating and stress also likely played a role in increasing my general inflammation levels.

After a week of "treatment", my pain went away.

Donald Lee
01-21-2009, 07:34 AM
Are you doing any back lever or front lever progressions? That might help balance out the strength front-to-back.

Sounds like the Bulgarian dips are really aggravating things too. You might want to go easy on them or take a break from them for a while.

I'm pretty close to achieving the front lever, but I haven't done any back lever work. I've been doing a lot of mobility work for my shoulders-wall extensions, external and internal rotation stretches, reach over and lift exercise, shoulder dislocates, etc. I've seen a lot of improvements, but my internal rotation is really lacking, esp. because I don't put much emphasis on it because it doesn't seem to be hindering me in any obvious way. My wall extensions are getting better, but I wish they got better faster. :)

I did try massaging the front deltoids a bit, and it does feel as if there might be some minor knots. I'll try massaging my shoulders and see how that goes.

Grissim Connery
01-21-2009, 08:56 AM
i would definately recommend some back lever work along with german hangs. i normally don't feel ready for any workout unless i've done a few skin the cats. it really builds a whole lot of coordination in your upper back that will help you gain control of your shoulder blades. also it really loosens up my traps, and i feel that when these loosen up a bit, i balance out the use of all my back muscles. doing back levers with a supinated grip will also really force you to get your shoulder blades moving.

Grissim Connery
01-21-2009, 08:57 AM
plus since you're facing the floor like a planche, it's gonna train a lot of the same stuff.

Donald Lee
01-21-2009, 10:54 AM
I've been holding off on the back lever until I achieve the front lever, and I don't really have much time or ability to add in anything more right now. I will try adding in some German hangs and maybe some skin the cats to my warmup. I have limited space, so I may only be able to do the skin the cats in the tuck version.

I've been neglecting to stretch the shoulders in the manner of flexibility that's required for the German hangs. Maybe that's part of the problem. There always seems to be more bases to cover...

Garrett Smith
01-21-2009, 11:11 AM
My rings hang about midway between the floor of my garage and the 8 foot ceiling. Better to do the skin-the-cats and tuck at the bottom than to not do them at all.

Steven Low
01-21-2009, 05:41 PM
My rings hang about midway between the floor of my garage and the 8 foot ceiling. Better to do the skin-the-cats and tuck at the bottom than to not do them at all.
I agree.

Tight shoulders = blah. Have been neglecting mine.

Grissim Connery
01-21-2009, 10:25 PM
I've been holding off on the back lever until I achieve the front lever, and I don't really have much time or ability to add in anything more right now. I will try adding in some German hangs and maybe some skin the cats to my warmup. I have limited space, so I may only be able to do the skin the cats in the tuck version.

I've been neglecting to stretch the shoulders in the manner of flexibility that's required for the German hangs. Maybe that's part of the problem. There always seems to be more bases to cover...

recently i've been focusing more on statics than anything else. i've been opting to cut out other crap that fills my workouts just to get these more perfected. it seems like a basic scenario of building a foundation IMO. for example, i'd really like to put some full planche pushups in my workout. i kinda need a full planche to accomplish this.

i'm not O-lifting right now just to give more time to gymnastics work. the only real weights i'm using at the moment are kettlebells for metcons and juggling. from BJJ i always take the stance that "how am i gonna move the other guy if i can't move myself in the first place?" i take the same stance with workouts. "how am i gonna move a ton of weight when i can't move my own body in the first place?" why would you try squat a huge weight with your ass to the floor when you can't squat your ass to the floor without a weight? whether this applies to flexibility or max effort static strength, it just seems necessary to me to give these factors precedence. then we can add the fun fluff of a metcon with ice cream makers followed by a C&J.

Blair Lowe
01-22-2009, 12:06 AM
We always train back lever before front lever. It has a lot more to do with training various other things for the future. Front lever is relatively easy to train with the right strength.

Donald Lee
01-22-2009, 11:21 AM
We always train back lever before front lever. It has a lot more to do with training various other things for the future. Front lever is relatively easy to train with the right strength.

Since the back lever is easier than the front lever, I probably should have trained that first or in concert with the front lever.

Grissim,

I was thinking of going more towards the other approach, eliminating a lot of time spent training the statics and focusing more on the dynamic strength. I think I'll just eliminate the OL for now. I was working light weights and really low reps with the OL just for technical proficiency, but it's probably too time consuming.

Blair Lowe
01-22-2009, 11:18 PM
but Oly is so fun!

BL is concert with FL is fine for adults. For little guys we work extending to the tuck front or back lever from a skin the cat or doing the negative from the inverted tuck or candle position.

Troy Kerr
09-24-2009, 12:32 PM
I would suggest throwing in some overhead pressing to balance out the shoulder strength. The planche is basically a 'super' bench press. The bench press hits the anterior portion of the shoulder. Mark Rippetoes starting strength book suggest balancing bench pressing & overhead pressing every other workout to avoid strength imbalances..i.e shoulder pain.
I follow this approach with my gymnastics training and have experiancedlittle to no shoulder pain. Hope this helps.

Donald Lee
09-24-2009, 08:35 PM
I would suggest throwing in some overhead pressing to balance out the shoulder strength. The planche is basically a 'super' bench press. The bench press hits the anterior portion of the shoulder. Mark Rippetoes starting strength book suggest balancing bench pressing & overhead pressing every other workout to avoid strength imbalances..i.e shoulder pain.
I follow this approach with my gymnastics training and have experiancedlittle to no shoulder pain. Hope this helps.

Recently, I tried supersetting back lever work with ring dips, which turned into a total disaster. My chest and anterior deltoids would get overworked. Whenever I overwork the shoulders through shoulder presses, dips, etc., my anterior deltoid areas seem to become irritated. I'm thinking that it's either an issue with a lack of ROM in internal rotation or a lack of flexibility in the German hang position. I have been doing a lot of stretching of the shoulders, but I'm holding off on the German hang-type stretch until I get adequate internal rotation. There's just not enough time for all these stretches.

Anyways, I don't have any pain from training the planche anymore. I'm pretty sure the previous problems came from the Bulgarian dips.

BTW. I try to balance out the anterior shoulder work with stuff like rows and back lever. I think the anterior shoulder pain is just flexibility-related.

Blair Lowe
09-25-2009, 01:40 AM
I don't have my GB materials handy, but wouldn't it make sense to just take a step back from the bulgarian dips. I can't remember what was before them. Maybe it was just a ring dip or some other russian, korean, etc dip. I can't even remember if bulgarian dips were after or before regular ring dips.

typically, I'll pair dipping(it rotates overhead, horizontal and dipping though i guess dipping is somewhere between) with planche work which is before the BL and with ample rest so it's all good.

Donald Lee
09-25-2009, 10:54 AM
I don't have my GB materials handy, but wouldn't it make sense to just take a step back from the bulgarian dips. I can't remember what was before them. Maybe it was just a ring dip or some other russian, korean, etc dip. I can't even remember if bulgarian dips were after or before regular ring dips.

typically, I'll pair dipping(it rotates overhead, horizontal and dipping though i guess dipping is somewhere between) with planche work which is before the BL and with ample rest so it's all good.

I think ring dips came right before bulgarian dips. I didn't do the parallel bar korean dips or any of that other parallel bar stuff, but I probably should have just to get used to the extreme ROM. Weighted parallel bar dips don't seem to give me much problems, but sometimes weighted ring dips do cause some shoulder irritation.

I may have to start stretching in the German hang position. My internal rotation in my left shoulder is pretty good now, but my right shoulder is very stiff for some reason. For that German hang stretch, whether on the rings or just on the ground, do you guys do it with hands in different positions?

Garrett Smith
09-25-2009, 12:56 PM
Do German hangs with your hands in whatever position they want to go to...that's the benefit of rings.

Internally rotating the shoulders creates impingement situations, are you purposely trying to internally rotate in the German hang? If so, I'd say stop doing that.

Bulgarian dips internally rotate the shoulder a lot. That obviously bothers you.

I would tend to be externally rotated in a German hang, or the more common "stretching" exercise equivalent of reaching behind to grab a bar at shoulder height (both arms behind the body) and squatting down to stretch the front of the shoulder/chest. This is typically done with palms facing the ground, and that's putting the shoulders in *external* rotation, opening the chest, freeing up the shoulder joint. Doing that same move with the palms up (like I think you're basically trying to do) puts the shoulders in internal rotation, closes the chest, and puts the shoulders in a great position for impingement.

I hope this makes sense. Let your shoulders go where they want to in the German hang is the take-home message, I guess...

I'm guessing that you allow the rings to turn in on ring dips, thus aggravating your internal rotation issue. The reason why p-bar dips likely don't aggravate your shoulder is because, besides the added stability, you are not "allowed" to internally rotate your shoulder as much due to the bars.

Donald Lee
09-25-2009, 01:33 PM
I haven't been doing any German hangs. I am not purposely internally rotating in any exercise; I'm just doing the stretch.

I was doing the back lever with palms down, but since switching to palms up, the back lever has felt much better.

I think the issue may be more of a shoulder extension (shoulder articulated down and back like German hang) ROM issue than an internal rotation issue. Maybe it was both though. I'd like to someday do Bulgarian dips, so I might as well work on both shoulder extension and internal rotation.

I'll probably have a lot more time to stretch my upper body now that I've reinjured my lower body. I guess it's a blessing in disguise, since the last time I injured it, I started doing more gymnastics exercises for the upper body.

Thanks for the suggestions, Dr. G. I'll have to be more conscious of my shoulder rotation during exercises.

Steven Low
09-25-2009, 04:26 PM
I was doing the back lever with palms down, but since switching to palms up, the back lever has felt much better.

Correct technique is palms down, so there's clearly something wrong if you can't do that without it hurting.

Where's the pain located at specifically?

I think you might have some biceps long head tendonitis.

Donald Lee
09-25-2009, 04:31 PM
Correct technique is palms down, so there's clearly something wrong if you can't do that without it hurting.

Where's the pain located at specifically?

I think you might have some biceps long head tendonitis.

Isn't correct technique with the chinup grip? I think we're saying the same thing. And, I didn't have any pain doing it the other way, but it did start to click better when I switched.

Blair Lowe
09-26-2009, 05:32 AM
Donald, it is easier that way. That's why it clicked better. Which is why we are supposed to train it the hard way. This prepares the elbow for the Iron Cross while the other does not.

Donald Lee
09-26-2009, 06:54 PM
So I'm supposed to do it with the pullup grip?

luis sarabia
09-01-2010, 04:51 AM
Hello Donald! Hope you are feeling better.
My name's Luis Ernesto Sarabia and I'm an ex-gymnast, professional acrobat and Personal Trainer. I'm very familiar with does symptoms you are showing...got it myself for years...forearms, elbows, shoulder. In my opinion and if you don't mind me saying...you are overdoing it a bit!
I find this article very interesting, so I forward it to you.

Hope this help and you get well soon.


Definition of Tendinitis
Tendinitis (also known as tendinitis) is an inflammation of a tendon (a band of fibrous tissue connecting muscle to bone) that causes pain, tenderness and occasionally, restricted movement of the muscle attached to the affected tendon.
Shoulder Tendinitis

There are three (3) types of shoulder tendinitis - rotator cuff tendinitis, calcified tendinitis and biceps tendinitis.

The rotator cuff consists of four muscles around the shoulder joint that help control the shoulder's position and keep it stable. With rotator cuff tendinitis the pain is located about three inches below the top of the shoulder and is felt when reaching overhead or behind the back. Rotator cuff tendinitis will usually resolve with rest, anti-inflammatory medications or an injection of cortisone and a local anesthetic into the area surrounding the tendon, as well as exercising using light weights.
Continue ... (http://www.healthscout.com/ency/68/128/main.html#cont)


All the best.
Luis Sarabia
http://www.planchetraining.blogspot.com