PDA

View Full Version : Overreaching Week


Robbie Bremner
01-21-2009, 02:19 AM
I am planning to do a weeks overreaching for weightlifting. I was wondering if anyone has some examples, ideas or tips to provide. There was an excellent article in the most recent NSCA SCJ about overreaching which I found extremely helpful in the palnning of the week and recovery week too.
I am looking at 2 sessions a day, with emphasis on strength and CJ & Snatch.
Any Ideas?

Donald Lee
01-21-2009, 11:02 AM
Are you planning on consistently overreaching? Are they going to be planned, etc.? Are you planning on deloading every 4th week or so?

Also, I'm curious as to why you plan on overreaching.

I have an E-book on deloading, so I may be able to provide you with some ideas for your deload week if that would be helpful.

Robbie Bremner
01-21-2009, 02:51 PM
I am planning 1 week of overreaching. Not overreaching on a mesocycle scale.
A recent journal which was written by Leo Totten and Co showed that 1 week planned overreaching showed increase in peformance for weightlifters.
they only give one example of a session and i was hoping for a few more examples. I am currently writting the sessions and also need to plan the following tapering week. Will be 6 days training with 2 sessions on days 1,4,6 and 3 on days2,3,5.
Any tips for either week would be helpful.

Chris H Laing
01-21-2009, 05:15 PM
I have an E-book on deloading, so I may be able to provide you with some ideas for your deload week if that would be helpful.

That sounds interesting. Where did you find it?


am currently writting the sessions and also need to plan the following tapering week. Will be 6 days training with 2 sessions on days 1,4,6 and 3 on days2,3,5.
Any tips for either week would be helpful.

For the sessions you could probably just go back through the weeks of CA wods, and then put a strength and tech/metcon together on the same day for days 1,4,6 and do something like strength, tech/metcon, strength or vice versa for the other days.

For the back off week, you could cut back to one workout a day, and maybe halve the volume or lower the weight being used, or both.

Let us know how it goes once you get to it.

Donald Lee
01-21-2009, 09:38 PM
That sounds interesting. Where did you find it?

I purchased Eric Cressey's Art of the Deload.

I searched through the net and found a couple articles that may be useful.

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/overreaching.pdf

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly16.htm

Robbie Bremner
01-22-2009, 05:28 AM
Chris
Was hoping for something more specific for weightlifting and I'll have to leave out the metcon stuff as I want to see specific results in my lifting.
I got the info from NSCA strength & conditioning journal. Already knew about overreaching but on a mesocycle scale, not on a microcycle scale.

Donald
Had a quick scan and I have searched most of the info I found was similar to you. That is the comparison between overtraining and overreaching. As I have said, hoping for actual programme examples.
I'm throwing it together so can send it through to you if you want.

Steven Low
01-22-2009, 09:21 AM
Well, it depends on what kind of schedule you're already on because that factors into how much you need to put in to develop a significant overreach state.

If you're doing 5 days a week already, you should increase the number of sessions to approximately 9 or 10. For example, 6 days a week with two a days 3-4 times a week.

If you just got off like SS (3x a week) or something like that then it might be a good idea to go to 6 sessions.

This can all depending how much you're doing each session too whether you can add more or less. 3x a week can become 9+ times a week if you're only doing a couple of lifts per session.

The key point to take away is that planning something like this depends mostly on your current level of conditioning. So if you're looking for help it would be a good idea to note what you have BEEN doing for the past couple weeks if not months.


Also, note that in the supercomp phase you must EAT LIKE A PIG. I did a 2 weeks planned overreaching session once and didn't eat enough the following week and ended up losing some strength, lol.

Robbie Bremner
01-22-2009, 02:04 PM
I currently have been doing a month of lifting and strength, working down to 1RM week backed up by posterior chain movement.

Snatch 70
CJ 105
BS 140
FS 130
Deadlift 180

I am going to use a session of-
1Snatch and CJ
2BS,PP,SLDL, bench.
3Block clean, block snatch, deadlift.
4OHS,Drop Snatch,Snatch Pull
5FS, Clean Pull, Clean-1st pull into trans., Jerks

This is a little vague but any thoughts?

Dave Van Skike
01-22-2009, 02:48 PM
why?

unless you're a 65-70kilo class lifter I think you're lifts will get more of a bump from milking a standard three week build up followed by a deload. with that FS poundage, I'd look at upping your back squat and DL as a focus. Two a days can easily be done without putting yourself in a hole.

first session lower vol. skill work, second session volume based press/pull or press/squat. dead simple.

Robbie Bremner
01-23-2009, 12:53 AM
Dave
For the past 3 months I have been doing a lot of skill work on my lifts to the detriment of Bs and deadlift. Will push these on in the overreaching week and just pure and simple want to see how tough a week would be and how the deload week will work.

Dave Van Skike
01-23-2009, 07:35 AM
in that case you might read up on the hormonal fluctuation model, Rippatoe has a section in practical programming on it and there's some stuff out there written by Kilgore and Pendlay I think...It's a better "overreaching" model I think than a blitz attack initiated somewhat at random. similar to any of those big vol/big intensity programs like smolov there's a build up on the front and a taper on the backend.

glennpendlay
01-23-2009, 03:41 PM
The "hormonal fluctuation model" was something that I started thinking and planning as far back as when I was an undergrad at Kansas State University, I eventually did my thesis on this subject to prove it had validity, in fact the title to my thesis was "validation of a hormonal fluctuation training model".

The basic premise was that earlier research had shown that overreaching weeks followed by deload weeks were effective with some people in increasing performance, and the effectiveness seemed to be linked to a drop and then subsequent increases in test/cortisol ratio that occured within certain parameters, but no one had specifically studied what those paramaters were and how to target training to stay within them and get the supercompensation effect.

We used weekly blood draws and hormone level analysis to first establish what the effective parameters were, then discover ways to directly link the level of increase or decrease in hormone levels at specific times during a training cycle with modifications in the training intensity, in other words letting the changes in hormone levels tell us whether an athlete needed to increase or decrease training volume or intensity at that specific time.

We ended up being very successfull, and showing that the decision tree that we developed could consistently produce drops in test/cortisol during a 2 week overreaching period of between 10 and 25%, the levels determined to produce the most effective overreaching, then allow the correct de-loading to allow this hormonal ratio to not only return to normal but to actually supercompensate to above baseline levels by the competition date. We also showed that increased results at competition were very highly correlated with the success in controling the hormonal ratio during the training.

We also learned, IMO, a lot of other useful things about overreaching and deloading for strength athletes in this and subsequent studies by myself and by Michael Hartman, who is now a PhD teaching exercise phys at a college in Florida. Michael did some work with our model that looked specifically at the length of de-loading time and the ability of the model to work using controls other than hormonal measures, something that few have access to.

If anyone has any specific questions about this model of training feel free to contact me. I dont mind reliving the old days once in a while.

glenn

Dave Van Skike
01-23-2009, 04:40 PM
Thanks Glenn!

Robbie Bremner
01-24-2009, 09:56 AM
Glenn
could you send me through any relevant info you have on overreaching and the HFM from your thesis. Would be hugely appreciated. brem_10@yahoo.com

Thanks
Robbie

Ben Shechet
01-24-2009, 05:31 PM
Glenn,
I'd also be really interested in reading the info you mentioned. My email is bshechet@princeton.edu

Ben

Steven Low
01-24-2009, 10:03 PM
If you wanna do it yourself look up the dual factor model of performance.

Bunch info on it on madcow's site in PART II:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

Ben Shechet
01-25-2009, 08:43 AM
Yeah, I get the concept, but I want to take a look at the actual data and protocols that Glenn used.

glennpendlay
01-26-2009, 07:18 AM
The questions are general enough that it would take me re-typing my thesis plus a bunch of commentary to answer... Let me give you a bit of overview and then if anyone has more specific questions I will be happy to answer them.

Between Dr. Hartman and I we looked at both 6 and 8 week protocols. These involved a baseline 2 weeks, an overreaching 2 weeks, and then a deload of 2 or 4 weeks.

We used heavy daily lifting during the overreaching 2 weeks, and the hormonal measures caused us to either add or subtract 10% from the volume, with no change in intensity, after week 1. On subsequent trips through the program, a particular athlete would start with whatever their volume was changed to on the first time through... so first time through everyone started the same, and on subsequent trips through the starting point was customized. Not surprisingly, results were better 2nd time through as more people found the particular volume of training that produced results for them.

Deloading was less volume, not less intensity. So we still lifted heavy, just not as many attempts at heavy weights. We found that the first week of deloading was hell, as if the body somehow "geared up" for daily heavy training, and allowed us to gut it out no matter how crappy we felt, but as soon as the load was lifted, everything fell apart. Results were good after two weeks of deloading, but better after 4 weeks.

One observation was that for most people, the amount of training required for overreaching was more than what would have been guessed, more than what made a person feel like a walking bag of hurt. Guys ached, hurt, had trouble climbing stairs, and the hormonal analysis said they needed still more training to get into overreaching. The subjects in this study really all deserved medals. Oddly enough during the heavy training, guys were coming into workouts practically on hands and knees, and protesting that they could NOT be expected to do heavy weights that day, then slowly working up and ending up making PR lifts on clean and jerks or front squats. Very weird how the bodies reserves can be tapped.

I did observe that the ability to daily lift weights between 85 adn 90% of maximum was a pretty good measure that people were NOT training too hard, no matter how bad they felt. If a guy could not lift 90% for several consecutive days, or couldnt lift 85% for one or two days, it was likely that the hormonal analysis would come back and say they had done too much. So that level of performance seems like a good measure to pay attention to.

glenn

Steven Low
01-26-2009, 08:22 AM
I did observe that the ability to daily lift weights between 85 adn 90% of maximum was a pretty good measure that people were NOT training too hard, no matter how bad they felt. If a guy could not lift 90% for several consecutive days, or couldnt lift 85% for one or two days, it was likely that the hormonal analysis would come back and say they had done too much. So that level of performance seems like a good measure to pay attention to.

glenn

Good to know. That's the general anecdotal guideline I've been using for the past couple years.

Thanks for sharing.

Ben Shechet
01-27-2009, 08:26 AM
Fascinating. Did certain lifts benefit more from the overreaching than others? My intuition would be that more strength-based lifts (cleans, squats) would benefit more from, or maybe be more tolerant of significant overreaching than snatches, as I know my speed is the first thing to go when I've finished a couple of heavy weeks.

And as far as the training protocol goes, I have some excel spreadsheets on my computer (I can't remember where I downloaded them from) that are titled "MSU Hormonal Fluctuation Research Model." There are three files, comprising 6 weeks of training. Is this the actual training model you used?

Duke McCall
01-28-2009, 10:19 AM
Glenn, thanks for the information. This is a fascinating topic!

Robbie Bremner
01-29-2009, 02:53 AM
The info coming from this topic is great and I thank those who have provided it.I started an overreaching week with snatch and clean or variations of in morning and strength work in evening. As stated i have used the Journal recently published in NSCA SCJ by leo Totten & Co as a basis for how much, reps,sets, intensity should be increased.
I'm on day 4 and it ain't easy but the body can easily cope with 80-95% lifts. However, warm-ups, recovery and diet are playing a more evident part as the week goes on.

Chris H Laing
01-29-2009, 04:38 AM
Sounds good robbie. Let us know how the overreaching week works out. Pretty interested in this.

Dave Ogilbee
01-30-2009, 09:08 AM
Aye, fascinating discussion. I've been wanting to add more strength work into my workouts, possibly moving into the realm of 2-a-days, but haven't really worked out the timing in my schedule. Really appreciate your sharing of the study Glenn.

glennpendlay
01-30-2009, 06:12 PM
Ben,

I believe that was our original 6 week model, but I dont think the one available for a while on the web was the final version.

I am at a high school strength seminar for a couple of days, so not as much access to the internet, but Ill comment more when I get back home.

glenn

Robbie Bremner
02-02-2009, 08:15 AM
Now on my deloading weeks, 3 sessions this week and 2 next week. The overreaching week itself with physically and mentally very challenging. Everything goes out the window and all you got to do is think about lifting eating and sleeping.
I got it tough on Day 3 and 5 but loved the challenge. Also noticed my snatch technique declined throughout the week. CJ stayed solid but that says more about my technique.
Thoroughly recommend a go.