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View Full Version : What happened to sport?


Derek Maffett
01-23-2009, 06:59 AM
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95SIMQ00&show_article=1

I mean really, I understand the reasoning behind not beating a helpless opponent into the ground, but it's a basketball game. You're supposed to try and win, and if you fail, you try harder. You improve your skills. It sounds like the players may have been the only ones who actually understood that.

But listen to the officials talking. The head of the winning school even dared to suggest that the other team was the winner. Why? Because they kept playing and losing horribly, of course. Which somehow makes the winning team "out of hand" and the losing team "winners." Never mind the fact that it would have been practically insulting for the winning team to go easy. Never mind the fact that a point unearned is a point not worth having.

I mean seriously, how can you have a competition while not expecting both teams to do their best?

Allen Yeh
01-23-2009, 07:23 AM
Ugh....

It sounds to me they should have stopped the game at halftime and declared the leading team the winners. They shouldn't forfeit...This just bothers me and makes me think of the whole giving awards to everyone type mentality.

Gant Grimes
01-23-2009, 08:16 AM
It doesn't surprise me that this happened in Dallas. Normally you don't schedule games like this (play the team's JV instead), but this looks like it was a league game. If you're in a conference, district, etc. you don't get to pick your opponent. Sometimes you go in knowing you're going to take a beating. But shooting 3s and full court presses? Poor form.

Victory without honor is a great loss.

I understand this completely.

Mike ODonnell
01-23-2009, 09:56 AM
That's why we always had the "mercy" rule in pickup games as kids....no one likes a blowout on either side.

Derek Maffett
01-23-2009, 02:18 PM
It doesn't surprise me that this happened in Dallas. Normally you don't schedule games like this (play the team's JV instead), but this looks like it was a league game. If you're in a conference, district, etc. you don't get to pick your opponent. Sometimes you go in knowing you're going to take a beating. But shooting 3s and full court presses? Poor form.

Perhaps I don't understand the sport well enough. I don't know what 3s and full court presses are, but I assume that they are effective, though perfectly legal and, I'm sure, not invincible tactics.

Obviously, there is little to be proud of in a victory like that (like beating a five-year-old at chess), but the forfeit and all this talk about misconduct by the winning team just sounds silly. I agree that a mercy rule of some sort would have been helpful (awarding the win early just so that the clearly non-competitive game would stop), but it would be unacceptable for the winning team to purposefully go easy on them - it would be like throwing a fight, or actually more like taunting in this situation.

Mike ODonnell
01-23-2009, 02:29 PM
there is little to be proud of in a victory like that (like beating a five-year-old at chess)

This is the only time I can see it is appropriate....and pretty damn funny.

http://video.aol.ca/video-detail/billy-madison-dodgeball/2873142037

Garrett Smith
01-23-2009, 03:59 PM
If I were a coach or player on a team that was winning 50-0, I sure would NOT be doing a full court press and still launching three pointers--much less 100-0.

The losing school had what, 20 people in it, with 8 of them on the basketball team, specializing in teaching kids with learning difficulties? If the opposing coach knew anything beforehand about the other school (or the parents did), then he (and they) should be very ashamed of themselves.

Mike ODonnell
01-23-2009, 04:55 PM
I remember reading a story a while back about a football team in TX beating a school something like 100-3......and the coach had put in the 3rd string at halftime....he said he got emails from 1st stringers parents pissed that their kids weren't in there to get more stats....and emails from the other team about running up the score....even though he put in his 3rd string. Sometimes you can't win.

Chris Forbis
01-23-2009, 04:57 PM
Once the lead was 20, the full court press should have been taken off. Once it hit 30, starters should have been on the bench and no more threes. Once it hit 40, it should have been a packed in zone defense for the rest of the game.

Scott Clark
01-24-2009, 10:20 AM
Back when Steve Spurrier was an aggressive coach (UF days) he was one to play the game until the game was over. Sure, he would put in some 2nd stringers, but he was still throwing the ball late in the 4th quarter while being up 50 points. I saw an interview back in the day where he said he followed Sun Zsu's The Art of War mentality. I understand that this mindset isn't best for lower levels of athletics (little league, high school) but I honestly don't have a problem with it on the collegiate and professional levels.

This 100-0 massacre was in poor taste and I agree that a mercy rule should have been enacted.

Scott Kustes
01-24-2009, 10:37 AM
Scott, not sure Spurrier truly understood the Art Of War then if blowing someone out is what he understands as the message. The main thing I took from that book is that it's better to win the hearts and minds of the opposition, rather than completely destroy them...destruction engenders only fear and hatred. "Taking whole" as it is known. Advanced preparation was another key theme, something I'm sure Spurrier did, as do all top coaches.

As for this game, the coach should be ashamed for pressing and shooting 3s that long into the game. It's pathetic and not sporting. And trying to forfeit after the fact is somewhat patronizing and useless. You can't unring a bell.

When I was in high school, we had a Top 10 girls basketball team. One season, there were three wins over very small, local all-girls Christian schools...the scores I recall are 126-16, 116-16, and 106-6. But key in those games was that our girl's coach called off the press midway through the first quarter, pulled the starters before halftime, and did everything other than telling his girls not to shoot. He tried to be sporting, but you also can't tell your team to just hold the ball and you can't help it if the other team can't not turn the ball over. You can help being a jerk-off and massacring the other team just for kicks though.

Mike ODonnell
01-24-2009, 11:41 AM
College football is messed up because the big teams have to blow people out to move up in the rankings....not just Win-Loss.

Scott Clark
01-24-2009, 12:46 PM
Scott K, I had the same reaction regarding how Spurrier took such a message from The Art Of War. I own the book and have read it several times... even went back to try to find what Spurrier's justification could be taken from. In the interview he said that no matter the score, you run your offense, period. Just as if you're down by 30, you play to put points on the board.

Who knows. Perhaps his distorting Sun Zsu's work is coming back on him at USC :)

Donald Lee
01-27-2009, 09:20 PM
Did anyone see any of the bickering about this on the CrossFit Forum?

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=41953

What a sad, sad thread.

Derek Maffett
01-28-2009, 01:13 AM
More traffic there, more chance of people talking who have extremely different views. Of course, when somebody's wrong, disagreement is important, but the flaming there was unnecessary.

Still, that thread is their issue.

Garrett Smith
01-28-2009, 04:56 AM
The winning coach has now been fired.
http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2009/jan/25/covenant-coach-fired-after-100-0-girls-basketball-/

Derek Maffett
01-28-2009, 05:33 AM
Eh?

Garrett Smith
01-28-2009, 05:43 AM
The article linked within the above link has many more quotes and details:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/012609dnspocovenantnu.2781526.html
It has turned into a "he said, she said..." situation. The school apologized, the coach said he wasn't apologizing, the school has now fired the coach.
Dallas Academy coaches and administrators say Covenant kept the pressure on until it reached 100 points midway through the fourth quarter.

Until Sunday, Grimes hadn't made any public comments since he e-mailed The News on Wednesday night. In that e-mail, which was also sent to Queal and athletic director Brice Helton, Grimes called scoring 100 points "unfortunate."

"It just happened," he wrote. "Please know Covenant intended no harm against them. I see this as a real learning opportunity, so we can prevent this from happening in the future."

Grimes said in his Sunday post that his team stopped applying full-court defensive pressure after the score reached 25-0 three minutes into the game, then dropped into a relatively benign zone defense and began resting its starters in favor of its three bench players.

Dallas Academy coach Andrew Lott agreed that Covenant stopped pressing at that point but returned with an alternate press later in the game.

"I am 100 percent sure," said Lott, who estimated that his team was able to take seven shots all game.

Dallas Academy, renowned for its work with students who have learning disabilities, is winless this season and has not won a game in at least four seasons.
I wonder if the Dallas Academy has been blown out this badly in the past, only to have this one event being made an example of.

Derek Maffett
01-28-2009, 06:14 AM
I know, it's just that their thought processes are so epically mindboggling.

Garrett Smith
01-28-2009, 06:22 AM
Well, as a business owner with employees, I can understand the situation from the school's side.

With this issue becoming a national news item, and the coach basically giving the school the finger on his own website, I see no foul on the school for canning him. He asked for it, he chose not to apologize and side with his employer.

Don't piss off the boss if you want to keep your job. That's pretty simple. As for the thought processes that led them here, I can't speak to that.

Mike ODonnell
01-28-2009, 08:05 AM
I bet if students got full rides to college and made $10 million a year in the professional chemistry league.....the science fairs would be out of control.

Gant Grimes
01-28-2009, 12:43 PM
It's different when a major football program runs up the score on a tomato can. The Top 10s of the world pay a hefty sum to the opposing program to do that. It's also different when third-stringers are in and the score is still going up. Those guys never get the chance to play, and when they do, damned if they're going to "take it easy."

I agree with the fired coach that the game shouldn't be forfeited. Covenant won the game. A forfeit win would ignore the win and dishonor the other team.

Blowouts happen. Running up the score happens. But 100-0 doesn't just "happen."

The coach's statement is on his website. It's worth the read.

The Game. The game started like any other high school basketball game across the nation. The teams warm-up, coaches talk, the ball is tipped, and then the play begins. We started the game off with a full-court press. After 3 minutes into play, we had already reached a 25-0 lead. Like any rational thinking coach would do, I immediately stopped the full-court press, dropped into a 2-3 zone defense, and started subbing in my 3 bench players. This strategy continued for the rest of the game and allowed the Dallas Academy players to get the ball up the court for a chance to score. The second half started with a score of 59-0. Seeing that we would win by too wide of a margin, running down the clock was the only logical course of action left. Contrary to the articles, there were only a total of four 3-point baskets made; three in the first quarter, and only one in the third quarter. I continued to sub in bench players, play zone defense, and run the clock for the rest of the game. We played fair and honorably within the rules and in the presence of the parents, coaches, and athletic directors for both Covenant School and Dallas Academy.

http://www.flightbasketball.com/100-0-Texas-Game-Response-From-Coach.html

Gant Grimes
01-28-2009, 12:45 PM
I bet if students got full rides to college and made $10 million a year in the professional chemistry league.....the science fairs would be out of control.

http://www.autumnspectacle.com/Movies/The%20Program.jpg

Garrett Smith
01-28-2009, 01:20 PM
59 points the first half.
41 the second, supposedly with:
continued to sub in bench players, play zone defense, and run the clock for the rest of the game.
FWIW, I'm not totally buying it. That's only a 30% reduction in their points scored.

Also, 25 points in the first 3 minutes? Seriously? In high school? That would almost seem like there wasn't another team on the floor. Let's say that is 12 baskets made. That's one about every 15 seconds!

The losing team was probably so outmatched they could hardly even inbound the ball against the press. Unless the girls on the losing team really enjoy the game enough to keep coming back for more, maybe their school should think about fielding a team in some other sport they might be better at. I'm surprised that no one is going after the losing school's coaches or basketball program, which apparently has been leading lambs to the slaughter for four years straight now. That said, if the girls are enjoying themselves while losing, more power to them, and this subject becomes moot.

Seriously, that game must have looked like a layup drill.

EDIT: I went and read the coach's statement. It would seem to me, that if he was being truthful, that the losing team may have been made of players in their first season of basketball ever.

Patrick Donnelly
01-28-2009, 02:12 PM
Anyone ever see "The Last Samurai?"

Sort of reminds me of that. There's no real answer to this problem either, just a set of loosely formed rules made by society, which are neither based on anything objective nor universally accepted. You can debate it however you want (whether it be disapproving, apathetic, or congratulatory), but nothing's going to change with the issue, and nothing's certainly going to change with our society's standards... That's not even to say that something ought to change with society. It's good to have opposing views.



Damn. Did I just do another one of those posts where I fail to actually say anything?

Donald Lee
01-28-2009, 02:51 PM
Anyone ever see "The Last Samurai?"

Sort of reminds me of that. There's no real answer to this problem either, just a set of loosely formed rules made by society, which are neither based on anything objective nor universally accepted. You can debate it however you want (whether it be disapproving, apathetic, or congratulatory), but nothing's going to change with the issue, and nothing's certainly going to change with our society's standards... That's not even to say that something ought to change with society. It's good to have opposing views.



Damn. Did I just do another one of those posts where I fail to actually say anything?

Yes.

I don't know who's at fault, but it's sad to see yet another example of how people in general are quick to judgment, especially from afar.

Gant Grimes
01-28-2009, 02:56 PM
If you're proposing that somebody should beat up Tom Cruise to make this thing right, then yeah, I'll go with that.

Mike ODonnell
01-28-2009, 04:29 PM
http://www.autumnspectacle.com/Movies/The%20Program.jpg

GREAT movie.....in the words of 'roid rage' Lattimer....."Ding F'n Dong".

I coached high school hockey while back.....we had great players...and not so great....I played them all equal ice time and they (the kids) didn't mind....only the parents did....and I really didn't care about what they thought anyways.

All this stuff would be settled much easier without 24hr news networks and other media looking for stuff to blow out of proportion and find the latest villian of the day. Gawd I hate everything about the news.

Patrick Donnelly
01-28-2009, 08:13 PM
If you're proposing that somebody should beat up Tom Cruise to make this thing right, then yeah, I'll go with that.

Sounds like a plan.