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John Kilbane
01-29-2009, 09:40 AM
Hello! I'm a 19 year old in college and have been eating healthy for a while now. I started eating Paleo a month or so ago. I usually eat one or two meals during a window of 4-5 hours because it's easier with my class schedule. I've found that in order to get enough calories in daily, I'm eating anywhere from 60-75% fat. The reason I've posted in mass gain is because I'm looking to put on some upper body muscle (want some pecs!). I guess my question would be is a high fat diet healthy or conducive to muscle-growth?

Also, on a side-note, would a good PWO shake of Whole Milk/Kefir/Yogurt and Whey protein be a good idea to see more size?

Here's my fitday: http://www.fitday.com/fitness/PublicJournals.html?Owner=jkilbane&Year=2009&Month=0&Day=28

Thanks for any insight!

Gavin Harrison
01-29-2009, 09:57 AM
Not sure why you want breasts... but... try adding a gallon of milk/day and do a lot of heavy lifting. That should get you there. For the breasts, just bench press 2-3x / week.

Mike ODonnell
01-29-2009, 10:15 AM
high fat is fine and can help with nitrogen retention and keeing calories high. Still need to get enough protein in daily to build muscles....and you can do your carbs pwo when they will go more towards muscle glycogen (no fat needed pwo).

Derek Weaver
01-29-2009, 11:04 AM
What they said.

Don't discount the power of the carb in muscle building.

John Kilbane
01-29-2009, 11:07 AM
Thanks for the advice guys. I forgot to mention that I'm 6'0" 135lbs. I don't want bulging "breasts", but an increase in upper body size so I don't look like a twig anymore. (Sorry that this turned into yet another "skinny guy" post, but I really value all of your opinions.)

What about all of the bad pree milk is receiving from those who are strict Paleo-eaters? Should I just disregard that?

Derek Weaver
01-29-2009, 12:25 PM
John,
Disregard the milk issue unless milk makes you sick. For something fairly short term (several months), it's fine.

I don't do all that well with milk, but I put on close to 20 lbs in about 3 months drinking only a half gallon/day along with another 3500+ calories on top of that.

If you're 6'0" and 135 lbs... why aren't you doing Starting Strength?

George Mounce
01-29-2009, 03:17 PM
Why not just become big all over?

Starting Strength and some milk will take care of that.

Patrick Yeung
01-29-2009, 03:30 PM
Thanks for the advice guys. I forgot to mention that I'm 6'0" 135lbs. I don't want bulging "breasts", but an increase in upper body size so I don't look like a twig anymore. (Sorry that this turned into yet another "skinny guy" post, but I really value all of your opinions.)

What about all of the bad pree milk is receiving from those who are strict Paleo-eaters? Should I just disregard that?

I think the paleo way of eating is very logical and definetly healthy. But, I dont really see the value in being on a strict paleo diet. I mean... We are smarter and better equiped than they were back then, why not use it?

Drink milk, its one of the best things you can add to your diet IMO. Cheap, protein, fat, tons of nutrients and vitamins and tastes good.

John Kilbane
01-29-2009, 03:35 PM
I'll check out "Starting Strength"
I'm not familiar with it...

Thanks for the great advice. I'll be going to get some Organic Whole Milk tomorrow.

Chris H Laing
01-29-2009, 03:56 PM
Also, on a side-note, would a good PWO shake of Whole Milk/Kefir/Yogurt and Whey protein be a good idea to see more size?





and you can do your carbs pwo when they will go more towards muscle glycogen (no fat needed pwo).



And on that note, would it be better, in a pwo shake, to use whole milk, and keep it natural, or skim milk because it has less fat.

Also, John, definitely do GOMAD and SS. Its fun for a while, then hard, and then you look back at your starting lifts and go damn, i've gotten so much stronger. Its kinda cool.

Gavin Harrison
01-29-2009, 11:40 PM
Thanks for the advice guys. I forgot to mention that I'm 6'0" 135lbs. I don't want bulging "breasts", but an increase in upper body size so I don't look like a twig anymore. (Sorry that this turned into yet another "skinny guy" post, but I really value all of your opinions.)

What about all of the bad pree milk is receiving from those who are strict Paleo-eaters? Should I just disregard that?

Hey, you sound exactly like me when I was 19, not that I'm much older or larger now! (Seriously) :)

I've done pretty close to everything to gain some size in terms of training, at first. The common theme with all of it was it involved compound lifts, particularly, squat, bench and deadlift, and at times, the clean. In the very beginning, I followed a split-ish routine that was Monday-Friday, and used some machines, but always had the compounds, and always first. I moved to a six-day a week split. Then a four day. Then a pretty big lay off, where I lost a bunch of weight. Random layoffs and inconsistencies later I found CF then SS, through the person who wrote the four-day for me.

In all of this I've been instructed to do a lot of things and setXrep schemes. 10x10s, 10,8,6,4s, 3x5s, 5x5s, 3x8s, or even 3x6-8 or things like that (when you hit 3x8 with a given weight, move the weight up, etc).

The one common theme for me and my weight is this, if I do progressive strength training focusing on large compound movements, and eating sufficient amounts of food (not necessarily a whole lot more, PWO shake, Pre-Bed Shake, and/or Morning-Shake did.. at times I'd eat lunch twice a day at work, or eat something when I got home from work before going to the gym) my body weight goes up. If I'm doing nothing physical, my body weight drops 5-10 lbs then stabilizes. If I keep up activity and eat normally, my body weight either stays the same or continues to go up a little.

Anyways, I'm 6' and ~170 now, up from 133 two or so years ago. I train with an adjustable kettlebell and body weight exercises in my apartment. This helps keep/increase my strength without hitting the weight room, but doesn't do as much for my weight, but being a busy grad student, ~25-30 minutes away from the school gym which is always crowded and no cheap / not shitty gyms close to me, it works.

Summary: In the weight room, it all pretty much works. Just focus on lifting heavy things with compound movements. As far as eating, you don't have to follow a particular diet, and yes, whey protein shakes do help put on mass... liquid nutrition is way easier to consume. You can eat a clean diet (Paleo/Zone) and gain weight, it's just (a lot) easier to do it without a clean diet. I also like to lift because I like the results, and training is actually fun for me.. funny thing coming from a kid who thought he'd never say that :)

PS -
I like this company for protein & creatine: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/, but not their weight gainers (or any weight gainers).
Milk's cheaper, but harder to consume a lot of (always full, makes my stomach hurt), but digestives help the more unpleasant effects of drinking a lot of it. I like this brand: http://www.digestiveadvantage.com/prod_adult_li.html

EDIT/PPS -
To actually answer your original question! I've never tried anything like that, really, I don't really like using a blender to mix shakes, more dirty stuff than necessary. I'd typically eye ball 8-12 oz of milk into a glass, add protein and stir with a spoon. To make a higher calorie shake, I'd pour the milk into a cup at night, drop 1-2 scoops of vanilla ice cream into it and let it sit in the fridge over night (this is so that the ice cream melts, but nothing goes bad, and it's cold in the morning), then in the morning add the protein and maybe chocolate syrup, mix with a spoon... then enjoy.

John Kilbane
01-31-2009, 08:55 AM
thanks for the advice, Gavin.
I have some whole milk (with DHA too), whey protein from NOW foods, and a shaker for the PWO shakes. I live in a dorm room with a half-size fridge and microwave. I think the dorm does have a kitchen in the basement though.

I've been working out 3 times a week including push-ups, pull-ups and then things like chest presses, rows, and pull-downs. I alternate between a "chest" and a "back" workout basically. As for sets/reps I try to do 8-12 reps and keep the volume at 25+ reps per exercise. Workouts are no longer than 30mins.

I'll let you guys know if the PWO shake helps. I've already noticed some increased size since a few weeks ago, but I haven't been weighing myself consistently.

Thanks again!

Gavin Harrison
01-31-2009, 03:48 PM
Make sure you're doing leg work too, primarily squats and deadlifts. Heavy lower body work will help your whole body grow and get stronger, don't neglect it, even if you think your lower body is disproportionately strong or big.

John Kilbane
02-06-2009, 12:31 PM
It's been a week of supplementing with whey/whole milk PWO 3x/week and I've noticed some fat gain over my abdominal area. I know it's probably impossible to gain muscle without fat, but could I chip away at the fat or at least slow it down by adding in sprints once a week in between workout days? or maybe cut down on the whey/milk? I'm currently getting about 60g protein in my PWO shake...

Thanks

Gavin Harrison
02-06-2009, 09:12 PM
Are you squatting and deadlifting heavy? That probably helps ;)

Looking at your fit day, you could probably do well to eat some more food. Maybe a carb or two (right now there's not even any fruit o_O)... I'm not a nutritionalist, but seriously, you're a skinny kid. You need to gain some weight. Squats and milk will do you good. Worry about the weight when you've got some muscle mass. You'll never get big n strong if you're worried about having a six pack...

John Kilbane
02-07-2009, 07:45 AM
thanks for the reality check, gavin

Craig Brown
02-07-2009, 08:34 AM
Hi John- I understand your issues with time & travel, but being that "I was there" when I was 28 or so, and via squats, deads, rows, and standing presses ended up at a 'normal' weight of 175-185 (i'm shorter though, 5'10")...seriously, it'a all about squats, deads, and food. If I could talk to my younger self I would have basically said: eat like a horse, do squats, deads, chins, dips, rows, clean & press for about three years. You'll be fine.

Mike ODonnell
02-07-2009, 09:09 AM
If I could talk to my younger self I would have basically said: eat like a horse, do squats, deads, chins, dips, rows, clean & press for about three years. You'll be fine.

Amen....I'd like to see a test group of 20 people who write that on their wall and unplug their computer for 3 years....vs everyone who reads everything at T-nation and Bodybuilding.com for 3 years...and compare results. Basics work best...yet everyone wants complicated solutions....I don't get it.

John Kilbane
02-07-2009, 01:27 PM
I've been lazy about the dealifts and squats because I've never done them before. Obviously, this is no excuse. Any tips or helpful sites on how to do squats/deads/presses with correct form? On a side note: these won't give me massive cyclist-legs will they?
Again, Thanks a lot for the advice.

Derek Weaver
02-07-2009, 02:22 PM
I've been lazy about the dealifts and squats because I've never done them before. Obviously, this is no excuse. Any tips or helpful sites on how to do squats/deads/presses with correct form? On a side note: these won't give me massive cyclist-legs will they?
Again, Thanks a lot for the advice.

Read Starting Strength. Best way to go if you don't have a coach there to help you.

And no, unless you are eating for it, you won't get massive "cyclist legs". If you eat a lot, you'll get bigger, if you dont... you won't.

Gavin Harrison
02-07-2009, 11:15 PM
I've been lazy about the dealifts and squats because I've never done them before. Obviously, this is no excuse. Any tips or helpful sites on how to do squats/deads/presses with correct form? On a side note: these won't give me massive cyclist-legs will they?
Again, Thanks a lot for the advice.

+1 for Starting Strength. They may or may not give you massive cyclist legs, but if were easy to do, we'd all have them by now. They will help you get massive in general though, if that's your goal. Probably the two most productive exercises towards that end.

John Kilbane
02-08-2009, 06:00 PM
I'm only worried about getting a bit bigger in my upper body. EDIT: I checked out Starting Strength on the wiki website FAQ and I'll be trying it out on tuesday for the first time. I'm going to be doing the "Wichita Falls Novice Program"

Another question on diet: am i correct in thinking on workout days i shoulc be eating more protein/carbs and lower fat while on non-workout days higher fat and moderate protein?

thanks

Gavin Harrison
02-08-2009, 10:03 PM
What makes SS so invaluable is it's instruction on how to properly squat, press, dead lift, bench press and power clean. It's worth buying/reading. Again, squatting and dead lifting will make you big all over. Dead lifting is especially good for your back and biceps' size :)