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Grissim Connery
02-03-2009, 02:19 PM
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Craig Brown
02-03-2009, 02:58 PM
That should work fine. I tend to not do cheat days, but instead cheat meals a time or two a week...so days are normal, but I'll have pad thai for dinner, or I'll hit this killer diner nearby where I can get bacon/eggs/sausage and a small stack of cakes...works better for me than the 'cheat day', and ends up carb cycling my week.

Grissim Connery
02-03-2009, 03:33 PM
that sounds intriguing...right now my schedule is bjj mondays, wednesdays, thursdays, saturdays, and sundays. i work out mondays, tuesdays, thursdays and fridays. maybe a "celebration meal" on both mon and thurs or tues and fri would fit well relative to all the activity. i'll play around and see whether a tues/fri or mon/thurs works better.

i have a new girlfriend and would like to go out to eat with her more. this could end up being pretty conveniant.

Patrick Yeung
02-03-2009, 03:40 PM
Yeah, if your reasons are so that you can eat out with your girlfriend and have those cravings settled, id sugest the cheat meal instead as well.

I just am always on the same diet plan, but when I get those cravings in the day (im IFing as well) ill just plan my meals/ratios accordingly and be able to have what id like.

Plus, its way easier to not feel guilty about a day of binging than it is for one meal out when youve been doing well all day. Make it even better by working out before hand too!

Emily Mattes
02-03-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm doing sort of carb cycling right now, but my numbers are lower--80-100g on workout days, then 30-40g on rest days. About once a week I'll have a cheat day or cheat meal (depends on how the weight loss is going).

Derek Weaver
02-03-2009, 04:31 PM
CLC is a good way to go if you can swing it.

Lyle says that you should take carbs as high as you can go without "spill over". I'd guess you can get carbs up to 3-4 grams/lb with all your activity. Would be good for performance too.

Keep the fat low on those days to keep from getting sloppy and way too out of control on the kcals.

Check out his forum for more information.

Grissim Connery
02-03-2009, 05:23 PM
i'm checking around lyle's site. does he have a specific page discussing it? i can't find it right now. any links?

Mike ODonnell
02-03-2009, 07:08 PM
best way is smaller carb meals, low/no fat, less protein....slow refills.....without spillover.

Derek Weaver
02-03-2009, 07:14 PM
i'm checking around lyle's site. does he have a specific page discussing it? i can't find it right now. any links?

This is the best forum discussion. It's about 21 pages, but there's plenty of good stuff in there. Worth sitting and reading for perspective.

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=638

The first several pages are probably enough to get started and then just work your way through as you go.

Donald Lee
02-05-2009, 11:35 AM
This is the best forum discussion. It's about 21 pages, but there's plenty of good stuff in there. Worth sitting and reading for perspective.

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=638

The first several pages are probably enough to get started and then just work your way through as you go.

What's PSMF and EOD? I'm having trouble understanding all the acryonyms.

Neill Smith
02-05-2009, 11:50 AM
I'm a big CLC fan also, but I've done it Lyle's way. That would be less frequent, bigger carb loads relative to what you're contemplating. Try scheduling strength workouts the day after a cheat dinner. Working out about 12 hours after starting a carb load always felt great for me.


PSMF = Protein Sparing Modified Fast
EOD = End of Day

Gittit Shwartz
02-05-2009, 01:14 PM
I think in this context EOD=Every Other Day.

Derek Weaver
02-05-2009, 03:50 PM
Yup, EOD= every other day. PSMF, protein sparing modified fast.

Neill,
The EOD thread at Lyle's forum is one of Lyle's ways right? I know that he suggests free meals and refeeds both take place in the evening on a day where you've trained with decent volume/intensity (I think UD 2.0 is certainly volume for full depletion).

Neill Smith
02-05-2009, 05:23 PM
Neill,
The EOD thread at Lyle's forum is one of Lyle's ways right? I know that he suggests free meals and refeeds both take place in the evening on a day where you've trained with decent volume/intensity (I think UD 2.0 is certainly volume for full depletion).

Unfortunately I'm only familiar with UD 2.0 and Rapid Fat Loss. I read some of the thread and he seems to endorse the EOD approach, but I don't think he's written about it.

Derek Weaver
02-05-2009, 07:22 PM
Yeah, more discussion on his forum I guess with the EOD approach.

I've seen him comment quite a bit on refeeds and the quantity and frequency. Generally, more often as one gets leaner, take 'em as high as possible and still get leaner.

Jane Michel
02-05-2009, 11:25 PM
I'm gonna start playing with carb cycling. It appears that many people do higher carb about every 3 days. My question is how much higher do you guys raise it? I generally intake ~60-100g of carbs a day (haven't measured food for several months, but this is my guess now). would 2x carbs be a normal amount on a high carb day? i'd probably just eat half or a whole sweet potato on my high carb days in addition to what i normally do.

my goal - to see if i can reduce binge urges. i notice that if i have lower carb intake for too many days, then when it comes time for a necessary cheat day, i might overdue it. times when i've naturally eaten a somewhat cycled carb intake, i don't even think of having cheat days. i'd rather see if a carb cycle can balance out my brain so that i don't get terrible urges to bake a cake on saturday nights...for only myself...hah

let me know if this works. i get terrible urges to eat a whole cake or a few bags of chips every 2 weeks!

Gittit Shwartz
02-06-2009, 08:58 AM
Alicia, it's been working great for me. I do around 100g carbs on one day, 30-60 on five days, and one day I don't count (probably don't even reach 100g... I'm not a big carb eater). I do try to stick to Paleo choices though.
I resisted the idea for a long time (didn't think I needed carbs at my level of bodyfat and low training volume) but I'm having very clear positive results in terms of fat loss AND recovery. Compliance is easy too.

Mike ODonnell
02-06-2009, 09:14 AM
I've seen him comment quite a bit on refeeds and the quantity and frequency. Generally, more often as one gets leaner, take 'em as high as possible and still get leaner.

That's the key....getting lean first....then increasing the frequency of refeeds, otherwise you just get fatter. Nothing beats a Margaritta and fajita refeed fest and feeling leaner the next day.

Jane Michel
02-06-2009, 02:01 PM
Alicia, it's been working great for me. I do around 100g carbs on one day, 30-60 on five days, and one day I don't count (probably don't even reach 100g... I'm not a big carb eater). I do try to stick to Paleo choices though.
I resisted the idea for a long time (didn't think I needed carbs at my level of bodyfat and low training volume) but I'm having very clear positive results in terms of fat loss AND recovery. Compliance is easy too.

hmm sounds good gittit. do you WAM then on those 6 days? does it get rid of PMS cravings as well?

Derek Weaver
02-06-2009, 05:14 PM
That's the key....getting lean first....then increasing the frequency of refeeds, otherwise you just get fatter. Nothing beats a Margaritta and fajita refeed fest and feeling leaner the next day.

Yup, every day refeeds, or even EOD aren't a good idea if somone's fat.

The biggest issue with determining the frequency and size of refeeds seems to be honesty with oneself in regards to level of leanness. Whether lean enough or not even close, there's usually some dysmorphia going on.

Gittit Shwartz
02-07-2009, 02:41 AM
hmm sounds good gittit. do you WAM then on those 6 days? does it get rid of PMS cravings as well?

Alicia - yes I WAM and usually plan the "refeed" beforehand. I also stick to a warrior diet-ish schedule on these 6 days (1-2 small meals during the day and a large one at night, and I always have whey or whey + berries PWO) so it's easy to keep the carbs under control.

I never had PMS cravings, or too many cravings at all lately since I started the warrior diet and taking every mineral supplement you can think of (iron, selenium, ZMA, iodine). One of all these worked.

Derek Weaver
02-07-2009, 12:53 PM
finally got around to reading some of that thread. it smells like bodybuilders over there...hah.

i realized a huge benefit to refeeds for myself already. on mondays and thursdays, i have both BJJ and workouts. the workouts are early in the day while BJJ is at night. normally on those days i am used to feeling depleted. yesterday (thursday) i tried a decent refeed (quite moderate/low compared to what some of those guys on llyle's thread were chomping down). anyways i went to roll that night, and the intensity was ferocious. i was working with a guy who's much better than me, and he smashed me horribly the whole time hah, but it was a for real battle that i normally never have the capacity to do on those days.

strictly from a performance standpoint, this seems legit. i'll check my bodyweight as i go along. i'm still trying to avoid measuring, but maybe i need to get back into to it since this is a new project...

Yeah, a lot of those guys are bodybuilders, but similar approaches to nutrition can still apply for an athlete.

Don't be afraid to take the carb intake higher as you still lose fat or maintain bodyfat.

Sounds like you're off to a good start.

Kevin Perry
02-07-2009, 01:20 PM
so summarize this for me and let me know if I get the jist of this or not:

so basically you eat low carb for a set number of days and then every few days you up the carbs as high as you can without a "spill over"?

Grissim Connery
02-08-2009, 04:26 PM
so summarize this for me and let me know if I get the jist of this or not:

so basically you eat low carb for a set number of days and then every few days you up the carbs as high as you can without a "spill over"?

that's what it looks like. the goal is just excessive glycogen depletion really.

Derek Weaver
02-08-2009, 09:26 PM
that's what it looks like. the goal is just excessive glycogen depletion really.

Supercompensation I think is the term. Maybe not. This is where the old carb loading ideas have evolved. Depletion, supercompensation, repeat.

Jane Michel
02-08-2009, 11:39 PM
Alicia - yes I WAM and usually plan the "refeed" beforehand. I also stick to a warrior diet-ish schedule on these 6 days (1-2 small meals during the day and a large one at night, and I always have whey or whey + berries PWO) so it's easy to keep the carbs under control.

I never had PMS cravings, or too many cravings at all lately since I started the warrior diet and taking every mineral supplement you can think of (iron, selenium, ZMA, iodine). One of all these worked.

every mineral supplement - lol. i am currently doing magnesium, zinc, chromium and kelp. guess i should look into other minerals as well!

Daniel Christensen
02-22-2009, 09:01 PM
so summarize this for me and let me know if I get the jist of this or not:

so basically you eat low carb for a set number of days and then every few days you up the carbs as high as you can without a "spill over"?


Can I check if I'm getting this...
I follow a moslty low-carb, paleo-ish diet, but with loose control over quantities (and more fruit that more hardcore paleo sorts probably allow - 3-4 pieces a day). I struggle to get my cheat/ reload meals right.

The "spill over" refers to how I look the next day?
If I've got my refeed right I'll look leaner the next day? If I overdid it, I'm in spill over and I'll look fatter?

Derek Weaver
02-23-2009, 09:27 AM
Can I check if I'm getting this...
I follow a moslty low-carb, paleo-ish diet, but with loose control over quantities (and more fruit that more hardcore paleo sorts probably allow - 3-4 pieces a day). I struggle to get my cheat/ reload meals right.

The "spill over" refers to how I look the next day?
If I've got my refeed right I'll look leaner the next day? If I overdid it, I'm in spill over and I'll look fatter?

Eh, yes and no. If you look fat the next day it's 99.9% of the time water under the skin.

If you actually got fatter, you likely ate so much you threw up and then started eating again... a couple of times.

Over time, sloppy refeeds will screw you up, but if it was a clean overfeeding with lots of starch, moderate fructose and low-ish fat you'll be fine. Depleted muscles will soak up most everything.

Daniel Christensen
02-23-2009, 05:41 PM
Thanks Derek

I've booked a biosignature assessment in the next few days, I'll get some additional info on refeeds there if I can.

Mike ODonnell
02-23-2009, 07:06 PM
Over time, sloppy refeeds will screw you up, but if it was a clean overfeeding with lots of starch, moderate fructose and low-ish fat you'll be fine. Depleted muscles will soak up most everything.

sweet potato/rice, chicken and broccoli....the carb up choice for many bodybuilders. Eat that 6x a day.

Daniel Christensen
02-23-2009, 08:19 PM
sweet potato/rice, chicken and broccoli....the carb up choice for many bodybuilders. Eat that 6x a day.

You are suggesting a full day refeed? How often? When I start to feel flat or do you schedule it a bit more tightly?

I'm liking the idea of having at least a mid-week carb reload meal, but I probably still need a weekend 'no rules' cheat meal.

Greg Davis
04-24-2009, 07:33 AM
strictly from a performance standpoint, this seems legit. i'll check my bodyweight as i go along. i'm still trying to avoid measuring, but maybe i need to get back into to it since this is a new project...

Hey Grissim how has this worked out for you / evolved?

I'm thinking about trying out some sort of refeed / high carb day approach. I find targeted PWO meals just don't work very well into my schedule and I think it might be my lack of carbs that is causing some weird symptoms:

- my bodyweight remains 10-15lbs lower than I have been in the past (was always lean)
- body temp seems low
- very consistently i fall asleep no problem but wake up around 3am feeling quite awake (i fall back asleep but still think this is not good)

It seems I just can't keep bodyweight on no matter how much I ramp up my fat intake (200+ g /day).

Mike ODonnell
04-24-2009, 08:57 AM
It seems I just can't keep bodyweight on no matter how much I ramp up my fat intake (200+ g /day).

More fat does not make bigger muscles (for those with already high enough fat intake)....and depleted muscles will be flat and leave you much lighter (less glycogen, and alot less water). Hence why some BBs can carb up for a show and gain 15-20lbs in a week or less. Zone at 5x fat all the time is not going to be anything a BB would ever use, for a reason.

But if you want to know what is going on for sure with you, then just take action and try something new. Take a whole weekend to carb up....2 days....and see what happens. Best approach is whole food carbs, eating every 2-3 hours (because you want to minimize spillover into fat cells), some protein (but not a priority), some fat (but not a priority). You may need up to 2x BW for carb intake for each day depending on how depleted you are. Water is not a priority when carb loading (just the other days)....as you can use the trick of drawing water under the skin into the muscles (to get more the ripped look).

Again....just try something different and see what happens...and that will be the best lesson you can learn over what anyone tells you should do. Worst case....you spend 2 days learning what doesn't work.

My leanest days were trying to go low carbs and high fat too often. Even little pwo meals didn't help much. But taking days to reload put the weight back on.

Derek Weaver
04-24-2009, 11:01 AM
Hey Grissim how has this worked out for you / evolved?

I'm thinking about trying out some sort of refeed / high carb day approach. I find targeted PWO meals just don't work very well into my schedule and I think it might be my lack of carbs that is causing some weird symptoms:

- my bodyweight remains 10-15lbs lower than I have been in the past (was always lean)
- body temp seems low
- very consistently i fall asleep no problem but wake up around 3am feeling quite awake (i fall back asleep but still think this is not good)
It seems I just can't keep bodyweight on no matter how much I ramp up my fat intake (200+ g /day).

Body temp may be an issue with metabolic rate. Try what Mike said and take a couple days to carb up. Simple carbs like cereal and other starch like pasta, yams, sweet potatoes etc. Two days won't kill you from a Paleo perspective.

2xbw is a good place to start if you make it a 48 hour time span. You can go higher though depending on how well you handle your intake.

Grissim Connery
04-29-2009, 04:36 PM
Hey Grissim how has this worked out for you / evolved?

I'm thinking about trying out some sort of refeed / high carb day approach. I find targeted PWO meals just don't work very well into my schedule and I think it might be my lack of carbs that is causing some weird symptoms:

- my bodyweight remains 10-15lbs lower than I have been in the past (was always lean)
- body temp seems low
- very consistently i fall asleep no problem but wake up around 3am feeling quite awake (i fall back asleep but still think this is not good)

It seems I just can't keep bodyweight on no matter how much I ramp up my fat intake (200+ g /day).

sorry it took me a while to get back. i do bjj a lot more frequently now than i did before (semester schedule opened up more time). as a result my energy needs kinda went haywire for a bit. i had to start working out less, and even in that state my energy needs were weird. I ended up having to rev up my carb intake everyday. i eat a lot more fruit and tubers now. in the past i used to eat oats a lot and enjoyed them very much. i've been making my own granola now with coconut milk and eating it responsibly.

if you're doing a moderate amount of activity, i think the carb up days will definetly make you warmer. i experienced that. my metabolism has been a lot higher since i added in a good deal of carbs again.

i guess my plan kinda fell through since i made the major change in my training. oh well.