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Emily Mattes
02-07-2009, 02:09 PM
So I begin my second pull (and double knee bend) way too close to my knees. I've been trying to retrain it so I start the jump a bit higher up and I'm having a hell of a time getting my coordination down. Can anyone think of ways I can target this? Doing pulls off boxes, maybe? PVC pipe over and over?

Greg Everett
02-07-2009, 09:12 PM
Emily -

Start at the mid-thigh position - jump. That's it. Quit thinking about it so much. The DKB will happen correctly and naturally if you get yourself into that solid mid-thigh position before you fire off that final hip extension.

Once your sn/cln from the mid-thigh is good, start at the knee, and gradually move to the floor. You can work 3-position snatches/cleans also -take one from mid-thigh, another immediately from the knee, and then the last from the floor.

Also, you can work halting deadlifts -DL to that same mid-thigh position and hold it for a few seconds before returning. Ingrain that position and continue returning to it when you get confused.

Emily Mattes
02-08-2009, 08:33 AM
The weird thing is I think I actually pull better during the full lifts than if I just practice the pulls.

I'm going to do the mid-thigh work then though, thanks!

glennpendlay
02-08-2009, 09:57 AM
when trying to clean up the pull, i find it helpful to do the following:

stand straight up with the bar in your hands, shoulders back. bend the knees slightly, about 3-4 inches, do this without bending at the hip, or without leaning over. this puts you in a position that although is maybe not textbook, is a realistic representation of the position that the second pull or explosive phase actually occurs in most lifters. stop in this position, get to know it. i call this the second pull position. do a clean from this position, in fact, do several, on each one, repeat the process of standing straight, puling the shoulders together, stopping, and taking stock of where you are. then bend the knees and get into the second pull position, again, STOP, take stock of where you are, get to know this position, do another clean, repeat till you are comfortable with both positions and can get into either with little fidgeting.

now, get into the second pull position, via the method described above, stop, make sure to stop, then slowly (again, after you have stopped in the second pull position) slowly, bend at the hip so as to allow the bar to slide down your thigh till the bar is just below your kneecap. do this slowly. when the bar is right below your kneecap, resting against the patellar ligament, not the patellar tendon, but the patellar ligament directly below the kneecap, stop. stop for 3 or 4 seconds, maintainning a tight back... then slowly, slowly, extend the hip (not the knees, they should neither flex nor extend while you are going from the second pull position to the below the knee position, what i call the low hang position), keep extending the hip till you feel yourself coming to the second pull position, the position we achieved by flexing the knees. when you feel yourself in this position, simply jump, catch the bar, and viola you have a clean.

gradually repeat this exercise, maintaing the stops and the slow speed of movement on the way down, but gradually increasing speed on the way up, increasing speed to the limit of how fast you can go while still hitting the second pull position on the way up in exactly the same way as you hit it on the way down.

hope that helps.

glenn

George Mounce
02-08-2009, 04:02 PM
There needs to be a Wiki of both Glenn's and Greg's posts...

Aimee Anaya Everett
02-12-2009, 04:59 PM
YAY for GLEN!

I am thrilled to see you posting in our forum! So many people can benefit from your knowledge and expertise! Stick around!

glennpendlay
02-12-2009, 09:48 PM
Aimee,

I just posted a link of your recent video, the one that includes you squatting 95kg for a few reps about 2/3 of the way through, on the crossfit forum... as an example of what a squat should look like. You know, the knees actually move, etc. hope you dont mind. Ill keep fighting the good fight regardless...

By the way, im going to be in the bay area for about 7-8 days in late March, how far away are you and is there any way we can get together for a day, or for a few hours? guess it depends on distance, and im no expert on Cali geography, was there once and got back to Texas as quick as I could.

glenn

Greg Everett
02-12-2009, 09:59 PM
We're in the south bay - immediately north of San Jose and 30-40 min south of San Francisco (the fabled Silicon Valley). So depending on where you are, we could be pretty close - anywhere in the southern half of the bay, west or east, isn't more than 45 min away.

So let us know where you'll be and we can give you directions. You're welcome to hang out at our place for as much time as you want - we'll see if we can dig up a good supply of red meat for your hourly feedings.

glennpendlay
02-12-2009, 10:33 PM
Greg,

ill be in danville, with spitz and his group, and my guy Shankle. Id love to spend a some time at your place. Caleb will be with me, and id like for him to be able to do a workout at your place, it schedule permits. Maybe him and donny, could produce two 200kg plus clean and jerks in one session, donny might be more like 210 or 220kg. would love for one of them to have the coveted title of "biggest clean and jerk ever at catalyst athletics", of course that would mean a lot, as it should.

And its every other hour, as long as the meat is smoked.

glenn

glennpendlay
02-12-2009, 10:37 PM
PS, Aimee has a nice looking squat, as you know. Would it be possible for you to send me a video of her squatting for me to use for educational purposes? Preferrably something with an a least somewhat challenging weight, not a warmup.

glenn

Greg Everett
02-13-2009, 08:49 AM
Sure, bring them both over and they can train whenever they need to.

I'll dig up some video for you - any particular angle you'd prefer?

Greg Everett
02-13-2009, 08:52 AM
Here's one of her - http://www.cathletics.com/wod/video/aimeeBSHeavySingle.mov

Not super heavy, but getting there (120).

glennpendlay
02-13-2009, 09:02 AM
45 degree from front would be nice.

Aimee Anaya Everett
02-13-2009, 09:36 AM
Glen-
I am so excited you are coming for a visit!
We would love to have you. and Caleb too. and Donny.
Please come as much as you can while you are here. It will be great to have you in the gym. If you need a room, your are more than welcome to shack up in our extra bedroom. And eat steak and bacon!

Aimee Anaya Everett
02-13-2009, 09:37 AM
p.s.
and I don't mind that you posted the video. You are welcome to take any video you'd like while you are here.

Aimee Anaya Everett
02-13-2009, 09:42 AM
Oh, and thanks for fighting the good fight with us (I went on and saw the crossfit message regarding squats). Endless, huh?

we totally high-jacked this thread!

Arden Cogar Jr.
02-13-2009, 06:52 PM
when trying to clean up the pull, i find it helpful to do the following:

stand straight up with the bar in your hands, shoulders back. bend the knees slightly, about 3-4 inches, do this without bending at the hip, or without leaning over. this puts you in a position that although is maybe not textbook, is a realistic representation of the position that the second pull or explosive phase actually occurs in most lifters. stop in this position, get to know it. i call this the second pull position. do a clean from this position, in fact, do several, on each one, repeat the process of standing straight, puling the shoulders together, stopping, and taking stock of where you are. then bend the knees and get into the second pull position, again, STOP, take stock of where you are, get to know this position, do another clean, repeat till you are comfortable with both positions and can get into either with little fidgeting.

now, get into the second pull position, via the method described above, stop, make sure to stop, then slowly (again, after you have stopped in the second pull position) slowly, bend at the hip so as to allow the bar to slide down your thigh till the bar is just below your kneecap. do this slowly. when the bar is right below your kneecap, resting against the patellar ligament, not the patellar tendon, but the patellar ligament directly below the kneecap, stop. stop for 3 or 4 seconds, maintainning a tight back... then slowly, slowly, extend the hip (not the knees, they should neither flex nor extend while you are going from the second pull position to the below the knee position, what i call the low hang position), keep extending the hip till you feel yourself coming to the second pull position, the position we achieved by flexing the knees. when you feel yourself in this position, simply jump, catch the bar, and viola you have a clean.

gradually repeat this exercise, maintaing the stops and the slow speed of movement on the way down, but gradually increasing speed on the way up, increasing speed to the limit of how fast you can go while still hitting the second pull position on the way up in exactly the same way as you hit it on the way down.

hope that helps.

glenn


Wow. This is an awesome post. Just awesome. Glenn thanks so much for doing this. I say this because my double knee bend and full extension absolutely sucks.

Here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abG6vum3mcg&feature=channel_page

So, from what you're saying, and I'm really trying to understand -

1. First pull - leg drive only; no extension of hips. Bar goes to above knees and knees start to come under the bar. Shoulders are in front of the bar
2. sorta Second pull - as the knees are coming under the bar, the hips extend. This is where hips should come to the bar somewhere above the knee, but at about mid thigh - the knees are coming forward under the bar to put you in a good jumping position - shoulders still in front of the bar as best you can.
3. Real second pull - this is your second pull position - bar is at mid thigh, hips are extended (I never knew this until you wrote it above), knees are under the bar and you jump upwards - head goes back a bit eyes straight forward maybe a little up - shrug like a muther.

I typed the above because I want to understand this so I can learn to do it as I'm growing very frustrated with my failure to progress as well as I think I should. I'm a 800+ lb deadlifter and I can power curl/clean with really bad form 140 to 150kilos. Yet, my squat clean, which I committed to 10 weeks ago should be better and I think this thread has brought me to one of many possible reasons.

Any words of advice would be greatly appreciated. And thanks to Emily for starting this thread. I love this stuff.

All the best,
Arden

glennpendlay
02-13-2009, 08:35 PM
Arden,

Congrats on a super strong DL, thats an awesome lift.

You have my analysis basically correcty, but keep in mind this is a method of teaching the lifts based on my belief that there are several positions within the pull that if hit correctly, will ensure a correct pull and will insure that the movement between those positions happens correctly. It is not meant to be an accurate description of what actually happens during the clean or snatch of an Elite lifter.

Hitting the positions, and stopping at the second pull position, which you reach via knee flexion only, then hitting the low hang position, which is reached from the second pull position via hip flexion only, then hitting the floor, which is reached from the low hang position via knee flexion only, and stopping and getting to know each of these positions really well, will do a lot for making things happen correctly on the way up.

When you are first learning, you come up in neccessarily jerky "stages" extending the knees, then extending the hips and dragging the bar up the things, then jumping, there are hesitations at the beginning/end of each stage of the pull. Then you continue to do each rep starting with the lowering of the bar in stages until you can slowly speed up and smooth out the pull on the way up and still hit the correct positions, once you achieve a smooth pull at a decent rate of speed on teh way up, you can stop the lowering of the bar in this manner, and just pull off the floor. Till you become proficient, you will still want to go back to this drill periodically when you feel yourself getting a little "off".

Also, dont worry about your double knee bend. In my experience, when a lifter is taught to do the lifts in this manner, the double knee bend happens naturally without the person even being aware of it 100% of the time. And that is 100% of the time on literally hundreds and hundreds of people, that I have taught to do the lifts, thousands in fact if you count strength seminars in high schools. The double knee bend ALWAYS happens, it has to.

I want to be fair and give credit where credit is due here. I never really thought about or realized the "why" of this till I read what Greg E. had to say concerning the second knee bend. He stated in his book that the powerful hip extension that occurs as the bar is brought into the second pull position causes the knee to bend because the use of the hamstrings in the hip extension movement bends the knee involuntarily. I can see now that my emphasising and exaggerating the period of hip extension without any knee extension happening forces a double knee bend, in fact often forces an exaggerated couble knee bend, and this "teaches" a person to do it, and gets them used to doing it without them ever doing it on purpose.

glenn

Arden Cogar Jr.
02-14-2009, 02:45 AM
Arden,

Congrats on a super strong DL, thats an awesome lift.

You have my analysis basically correcty, but keep in mind this is a method of teaching the lifts based on my belief that there are several positions within the pull that if hit correctly, will ensure a correct pull and will insure that the movement between those positions happens correctly. It is not meant to be an accurate description of what actually happens during the clean or snatch of an Elite lifter.

Hitting the positions, and stopping at the second pull position, which you reach via knee flexion only, then hitting the low hang position, which is reached from the second pull position via hip flexion only, then hitting the floor, which is reached from the low hang position via knee flexion only, and stopping and getting to know each of these positions really well, will do a lot for making things happen correctly on the way up.

When you are first learning, you come up in neccessarily jerky "stages" extending the knees, then extending the hips and dragging the bar up the things, then jumping, there are hesitations at the beginning/end of each stage of the pull. Then you continue to do each rep starting with the lowering of the bar in stages until you can slowly speed up and smooth out the pull on the way up and still hit the correct positions, once you achieve a smooth pull at a decent rate of speed on teh way up, you can stop the lowering of the bar in this manner, and just pull off the floor. Till you become proficient, you will still want to go back to this drill periodically when you feel yourself getting a little "off".

Also, dont worry about your double knee bend. In my experience, when a lifter is taught to do the lifts in this manner, the double knee bend happens naturally without the person even being aware of it 100% of the time. And that is 100% of the time on literally hundreds and hundreds of people, that I have taught to do the lifts, thousands in fact if you count strength seminars in high schools. The double knee bend ALWAYS happens, it has to.

I want to be fair and give credit where credit is due here. I never really thought about or realized the "why" of this till I read what Greg E. had to say concerning the second knee bend. He stated in his book that the powerful hip extension that occurs as the bar is brought into the second pull position causes the knee to bend because the use of the hamstrings in the hip extension movement bends the knee involuntarily. I can see now that my emphasising and exaggerating the period of hip extension without any knee extension happening forces a double knee bend, in fact often forces an exaggerated couble knee bend, and this "teaches" a person to do it, and gets them used to doing it without them ever doing it on purpose.

glenn

Glen,
Thank you so much. It's going to take a long time to get this down and I'm committed to this humbling process. I enjoy drills as they spice up the training - I do tons of drill work for my sport when I'm not as energetic as I'd like to be - so pulls as you've outlined would be perfect for me. I sincerely appreciate your time and effort. Means a lot to me.

All the best,
Arden

Dave Paton
02-19-2009, 08:56 PM
Greg or Glenn,

Do you have any video of what you are talking about? Greg: mid thigh jump, Glenn: Well, the stuff you said. I guess i'm a visual learner.

I tend to "hump" the bar with not enough "jump" the bar.

thanks.

glennpendlay
02-20-2009, 06:01 AM
Dave,

Greg has an excellent video for sale in this websites store which does a really good job of demonstrating his teaching method. I would recommend it.

I am doing a training seminar in April along with Alex Krychev (1972 Olympic silver medalist from Bulgaria then assistant coach on the Bulgarian national team for a number of years) Martin Pashov (former bulgarian national team member, now training in the US and trying to get citizenship, currently doing around 165/200 as a 105kg lifter) and some others, and we plan on making a video of the seminar. It will feature both Krychev and myself demonstrating how we teach the lifts, as well as planning workouts, etc. You can read more about it on the Pendlaybarbell.com website.

I am not sure yet how the video of our seminar will turn out, but it might be good. The opportunities to learn about the Olympic lifts, be it in person or via videos, just keep growing.

Glenn

Duke McCall
02-20-2009, 08:30 AM
I converted Glen's post about the second pull drill into a .pdf document (and edited it a bit to make it a bit more paint by numbers for beginners like myself). I thought others might be interested, so here it it. (Glen, if I screwed it up, please forgive me).