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Greg Davis
02-09-2009, 03:39 AM
I'm trying to decide if its a good or bad idea to have a PWO shake with sugar in it once a week after my (intense) monday night training sessions.

Its one hour BJJ + one hour wrestling, from 6:00pm-8:00pm. Highly glycogen draining. I usually train in the morning/afternoon but this wrestling class is only offered at night. So its hard to do my usual practice of throwing in some root veggies cuz its so late when I get home I doubt I'd have time to digest before going to bed. (i wake up at ~5.45 am so im in bed pretty early).

The last few weeks I've made a shake thats basically:
50 g CHO from dextrose
25 g PRO from whey

It just feels kinda crazy to suck back dextrose after a week of eating so cleanly with only paleo foods. But (a) I feel like I need some CHO for recovery cuz of grappling training being highly glycogen depleting; (b) it goes down pretty easy and allows me to get to bed early; (c) i have leftover whey protein that costs me nothing.

My alternative would be to eat a meal of like sweet potatoes and tuna and just stay up a bit later. Thoughts?

Started a detailed training/food log here. (http://www.cathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3824)

Steven Low
02-09-2009, 05:32 AM
Yeah, if you have training on the next day especially early it would probably be a good idea to have some sugar in your PWO shake to help resupply glycogen.

Although the glycogen you want resupplied is primarily the intramuscular glycogen with the extra going towards liver glycogen. I'm not sure what kind of sugars you need to be specific to that. Lyle McDonald or Robb Wolf might have something on their sites about that.

Greg Davis
02-09-2009, 05:45 AM
I'm pretty sure dextrose (glucose) would be the best kind of simple sugar to have in there..

I thought this guest article on Lyle's site by Alan Aragon "An Objective Comparison of Chocolate Milk and Surge Recovery" (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/an-objective-comparison-of-chocolate-milk-and-surge-recovery.html) had some good relevant info in it.

Again, I don't really like the idea of using sugar but grappling training can be real draining.. and I figure one of these shakes a week wouldn't be too counterproductive to my health/longevity goals.. the rest of the week I pretty much stick to paleo foods with some tuber starches thrown in after a draining afternoon workout.

Mike ODonnell
02-09-2009, 06:58 AM
Try it.....or chug some milk...and see what happens. The resulting blood sugar crash might actually help you get to sleep quicker. You can always restore muscle glycogen the next couple days with more carbs in your diet...you don't have to do it right after a workout.

Garrett Smith
02-09-2009, 08:54 AM
If you feel like you sleep fine and digest it okay, I'd say go ahead.

Darryl Shaw
02-10-2009, 04:30 AM
You could try having a slightly over ripe banana (or two) straight after training that way you wouldn't need to use quite so much sugar in your shake.

Gant Grimes
02-10-2009, 05:38 AM
My judo class ends at 10 pm, and I definitely take a PWO, usually milk, whey, and some berries. I have a bottle of glucose tabs in my bag for the extra grueling sessions. In extreme cases, I'm forced to grab a Whataburger and vanilla shake.

There is some debate about whether taking in carbs during this period (when your insulin levels are slightly higher anyway) affects insulin resistance. But for me, recovery is more important than worrying about this.

This might give you some guidance (from Byers' interview with Matt Lalonde).
http://byerscrossfit.blogspot.com/2009/02/science-is-hot.html

Specifically, how do I figure out this whole post workout (PWO) thing?

Matt: Robb Wolf often recommends consuming half of your day's carb blocks in the form of high glycemic carbs (such as sweet potatoes) immediately after a workout. This is effective for quick recovery, and to put on muscle mass. Here is why this works:

When you train, your body turns on a process called 'non-insulin mediated glucose transport or intake'. That means your cells can now absorb glucose from the bloodstream without the help of the hormone insulin. This makes sense - when you need energy (glucose) and you need it fast, you eliminate the middleman (insulin). This rapid response diminishes gradually once you stop exercising, and is completely shut off after about an hour. That means that if you consume some good quality food that is readily absorbed immediately after your workout (ideally within 30 minutes), your cells will quickly replenish their glycogen stores. The best food to eat after a workout is protein (for muscle repair) and high glycemic carbohydrates (to replenish glycogen stores). You want to avoid foods that contain fat and fiber because they slow down digestion, and the ensuing absorption of nutrients. As an example, Robb often recommends salmon and sweet potatoes as the ideal PWO meal.

Greg Davis
02-10-2009, 06:20 AM
10pm thats pretty late eh. With a 5.30am wakeup that would be hard for me.

I did some digging around Robb's blog for some info and came across:

If I always workout at night (end b/t 6pm to 8pm), should I still save the majority of my carbs for post workout?
Erik-

Thatís a common problem. Iíd still give it a go. Just keep an eye out for abdominal fat gain. If this happens titrate the PWO carbs down and add those early in the day. Best you can do with a difficult schedule.

and:

The PWO window is most potent immediately after a WO and drops off to about 50% efficacy by 30 min, and pretty much back to baseline by an hour. If you train at night, just try to get that meal in immediately after training and keep an eye out for fat gain around the mid-section. If thyis happens, dial back your carbs.

30 mins seems pretty short. How people manage to prep and eat sweet potatoes (what he recommends) that quickly is beyond me unless you are just jamming them in cold.

Gant Grimes
02-10-2009, 07:02 AM
10pm thats pretty late eh. With a 5.30am wakeup that would be hard for me.

I usually fall asleep after midnight and wake up at 6. The PWO isn't a problem. A shake at 10:05 doesn't keep me up any more than getting osoto-gari'd at 9:55. If anything I sleep better.

Like Robb said, keep an eye on it and find what works for you.

Liam Dougherty Springer
02-10-2009, 07:34 AM
30 mins seems pretty short. How people manage to prep and eat sweet potatoes (what he recommends) that quickly is beyond me unless you are just jamming them in cold.

I just microwave a sweet potato put some coconut oil cinnamin and salt so it isnt to dry and put it in a tupper ware even a couple hours later it is still good as long as I don't refrigerate it. That and hard boiled eggs make a easy quick digesting PWO meal.

Grissim Connery
02-10-2009, 04:36 PM
my bjj club gets shafted on weekdays cause we sublet from an aikido club. as a result they get the normal training times and we get crap. training on weekdays starts at 9pm. i get done near midnight. this is for 3 weekdays. weekends are in the afternoon so it's nice. hopefully we'll be able to get our own club sometime...

IMO don't overthink it. i used to freak out about all this. if you're hungry, eat some food. i sometimes just go straight to bed w/o food, even after hard sessions. your body is not going to fall apart. you'll prob have a big GH release if you don't eat anything anyways. so just eat if you're hungry and sleep if you're tired.

you get better at grappling by learning more anyways. just try to eat well.