PDA

View Full Version : hierarchy of metcon programming


Chris H Laing
02-10-2009, 05:44 PM
This was posted by Dr G in the thread about CFSB...



My own perceptions on the most effective metcon programming is:

Power-biased (allowing for higher power outputs round-to-round)
Heavy metcons (taxing higher levels of strength in a metcon fashion)
Metcons with weights and/or cals that allow for continuous movement without stopping ((taxing higher levels of CV output in a metcon fashion)
6 round Tabatas (because if you can do more rounds, you didn't go hard enough)
Typically less than 10 minutes (easier on the CNS and adrenals long-term)
Doublets or Triplets (because chippers just suck the life out of people)
For sessions of longer than 10 minutes, a single modality more suited to longer work periods is advisable (ie. running, rowing, biking)
GS-style KB work



...and I didnt want to steer the conversation away from it in that thread, so here it is.

This is extremely interesting to me, and I am wondering about a few things. Overall, why is this the order you have stated for these?

Second, can you give me an example of a power-biased metcon. I cant think of any metcons that I've done where i was able to do more work in the later rounds.

Third, why are single modalities better for longer than 10 minute sessions? When doing mainpage CF i made great gains, and most of the metcons took me upwards of 15 min.

And lastly, and this is kind of a dumb questions, what is GS style KB work, and for what kind of duration would this last? Longer than 10 minutes because it is a single modality?

Sorry for all the questions...

Derek Maffett
02-10-2009, 08:47 PM
And lastly, and this is kind of a dumb questions, what is GS style KB work, and for what kind of duration would this last? Longer than 10 minutes because it is a single modality?

Sorry for all the questions...

GS style KB work = Girevoy Sport style Kannon Ball work. And yes, it's a single modality done constantly for an average of maybe ten minutes or so (shorter and considerably longer exist).

Brandon Oto
02-10-2009, 09:02 PM
Um... Garrett will have to speak for himself, but I'm pretty sure that's just a bulleted list of nice qualities. They're not in any particular order.

Garrett Smith
02-10-2009, 09:13 PM
Chris,
I didn't actually mean it to be an ordered hierarchy, just the things I found most useful (and least draining) for people--especially those with high-stress jobs and children (who don't have a lot of excess energy to waste overdoing their exercise).

Power-biased metcon is based on the article in The Performance Menu by Robb Wolf. An example would be (I think this was in the article) "Helen" done with a full one minute rest taken between rounds. This allows for a higher power output in each round--much like running 4x400m with rest taken between laps would result in faster lap times and better "output" than running a straight 1600m would. Basically, structured interval training. There were other examples, like using clapping pushups instead of regular push-ups. It's a good article.

I think really high-rep cals and BB exercises and plyometrics (think Filthy Fifty) result in appreciably bad form as fatigue sets in, which results in a huge drain on the system as well as a source of accumulated microtrauma due to the poor form. Running is obviously well-suited for longer stretches (assuming form is proper), as is rowing. Push-ups, box jumps, burpees, BB snatches, etc., are not. Quick question--what is the reason you left CF programming if it was so productive for you? Were your long metcons wearing you down, or possibly getting tedious/boring? Were you losing maximum strength, or not progressing? Remember always that anyone new to the CF setup always makes rapid progress, regardless of the length of their metcons.

See here (http://taskettlebellers.tripod.com/id25.html) for some info on GS KB stuff.

Derek Maffett
02-10-2009, 09:25 PM
See here (http://taskettlebellers.tripod.com/id25.html) for some info on GS KB stuff.

And now for a history lesson on GS KB.


In early times, it was a discipline where Russian pirates would practice catching kannon balls shot from 100m. It was arguably a higher "power output" sport back then, but I digress. Anyways, the pirates who were good at it usually died until a raiding team came back with a drink called sake. This didn't actually make them any better at the sport, but they all became so drunk at this time that no one could catch a kannon ball. However, they insisted that the sake made them better at the game, since death rates had dropped.

One professor Yuri Borishoff claimed "The results obtained by this group should not be considered as meaning that a higher blood alcohol content leads to increased hardiness of any sort."

Professor Borishoff was keelhauled shortly thereafter.

The thefts of sake did not go unchallenged, however, and the Japanese government dispatched several ninja to attend to the problem. But we all know that real ninja don't work for governments, and so the pirates killed them. Eventually, the real ninja got bored and decided to do it themselves, but the excessive amount of snow in Russia made it impossible for the low-ranking ninja to sneak up on the pirates properly and the high-ranking ninja are too busy killing the inept lower-ranking ninja. These pirates exist even today, unaware of the imminent threat and in too much of a drunken stupor to care much one way or the other.

In the early nineteenth century, when a particularly large gravitational disruption occurred (the work of ninja sorcerers who were also killed for daring to even try adding extra coolness to the awesome existence of ninja), several kannon balls landed in Moscow. The Russian in Moscow were soft and hadn't the slightest idea how to use the kannon balls properly, so they fused the handles from discarded tea pots to the pieces of metal and the rest is history (or at least those facts can be read elsewhere).

Experts fear that the pirate clan will soon be destroyed as global warming sets in.

Chris H Laing
02-11-2009, 09:57 AM
I didn't actually mean it to be an ordered hierarchy


My mistake then. But in that case, I feel like someone needs to make one...:p

Garrett Smith
02-11-2009, 10:22 AM
If/when I decide to add some GPP into my routine, one of my first plans is to get a pair of 16kg GS KBs, along with doing more jump rope (another good long-duration single modaility, as long as it is done on the right surface).

A combo of jump rope and KB work back-to-back supersets (back then it was called the DoD Man-Maker workout) was what I mostly used to train for the TSC. That program's effectiveness was what made sense out of CF when I was initially exposed to it. It was pretty cool to get fit enough that jumping rope was actually "rest".

Emily Mattes
02-11-2009, 10:27 AM
And now for a history lesson on GS KB.


In early times, it was a discipline where Russian pirates would practice catching kannon balls shot from 100m. It was arguably a higher "power output" sport back then, but I digress. Anyways, the pirates who were good at it usually died until a raiding team came back with a drink called sake. This didn't actually make them any better at the sport, but they all became so drunk at this time that no one could catch a kannon ball. However, they insisted that the sake made them better at the game, since death rates had dropped.

One professor Yuri Borishoff claimed "The results obtained by this group should not be considered as meaning that a higher blood alcohol content leads to increased hardiness of any sort."

Professor Borishoff was keelhauled shortly thereafter.

The thefts of sake did not go unchallenged, however, and the Japanese government dispatched several ninja to attend to the problem. But we all know that real ninja don't work for governments, and so the pirates killed them. Eventually, the real ninja got bored and decided to do it themselves, but the excessive amount of snow in Russia made it impossible for the low-ranking ninja to sneak up on the pirates properly and the high-ranking ninja are too busy killing the inept lower-ranking ninja. These pirates exist even today, unaware of the imminent threat and in too much of a drunken stupor to care much one way or the other.

In the early nineteenth century, when a particularly large gravitational disruption occurred (the work of ninja sorcerers who were also killed for daring to even try adding extra coolness to the awesome existence of ninja), several kannon balls landed in Moscow. The Russian in Moscow were soft and hadn't the slightest idea how to use the kannon balls properly, so they fused the handles from discarded tea pots to the pieces of metal and the rest is history (or at least those facts can be read elsewhere).

Experts fear that the pirate clan will soon be destroyed as global warming sets in.

Derek, last I heard pirate clans was making a comeback after The Society for the Preservation of Seadogs lobbied a number of major Russian zoos to start concentrated breeding programs. I think they released the first new batch of pirates into the wild about a half-year ago.

Patrick Yeung
02-11-2009, 11:41 AM
Though ive never sat down and written out a list of things I beleive to make up the perfect metcon, I think it would look similar to yours.

Those longer, high rep routines really kill me. By the time I get to my last sets, the form and power has disolved away.

And I like how you say 6 round tabatas. I could never understand how anyone could do an 8 round tabata and still keep up the same pace. Either my recovery is terrible between rounds, or they arent pushin so hard. I usually have to do 4 rounds, then take a full rest before I do another 4 rounds.

Thats one of the reasons why I moved away from CF though. The workouts tended to be too taxing for me, and my strength gains wernt going up. Instead, just my times were going down on the workouts.

Garrett Smith
02-11-2009, 01:52 PM
Patrick,
I got the six-round Tabata from Gant Grimes. If you search his posts, you'll find his Tabata project posts. They were/are great.

Tabata's first study involved 7-8 rounds. His second study, a year later, involved 6-7 rounds. Hence the 6-8 rounds, of which many overachievers only read as 8 rounds. Six rounds should be hard enough that 7 and 8 almost become counterproductive. Obviously Tabata was learning something about this method by the time he was repeating the study--and he was using Olympic medalist speed skaters!

Gant Grimes
02-12-2009, 09:19 AM
Derek, you are a student of history, and I appreciate that. Real Ultimate Power is 90% of my education, but I had not read that story before. Thanks.

Dr. G's list is excellent, and he is correct about Tabata.

Consider the graph and contemplate. What does this tell you about the number of rounds necessary? What does this tell you about starting level of conditioning (my week 1 results) and its effect?

**Joey Powell and I had a drawn-out debate about the necessary intensity for Tabata. IIRC he suggested that intensity should be sub-maximal, and that I was confusing this with perceived exertion. Well, that's fine if you're on an erg machine, but if you're managing your effort, you might shortchange yourself a pullup or two, and that's a large percentage when you're doing Tabata.

Go balls-out. It's the only way. If you're not flat-lining after 3-4 rounds, there's something wrong. If you're doing four consecutive exercises, please refer to them as "20:10 Intervals" rather than Tabatas.

I'm glad Dr. G brought these up. I'm going to start them again...to train my recovery ability.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/gantgrimes/tabtopweeks.jpg

Craig Brown
02-12-2009, 01:16 PM
Too damn funny. I just was looking at your Tabata project for use again yesterday, Gant.

Patrick Yeung
02-12-2009, 04:44 PM
Wow... Thats just beautiful.

Looks like I was experiencing similar to what you were around round 4, a comparatively larger decrease in performance. And, since CF suggests that each round be as strong, if not stronger than the last, I did not know how they could possibly do that. My experience with tabatas is only sprinting/cycle though, not with lifting.

I read your hybrid program and it looks like a lot of fun. Ill have to look into some more of your older posts to see what other goodies I havent found yet

And thanks Garrett, your posts are always short and to the point.

Peter Dell'Orto
02-12-2009, 05:34 PM
Looks like I was experiencing similar to what you were around round 4, a comparatively larger decrease in performance.

Yeah. I started out doing my own version of the Tabata Project with 8-round versions. Gant warned me that would be overkill, but I tried it anyway. He was right, it was too much. I also made a critical mistake by including dips, and found out for certain that dips + my old shoulder injury = re-occurrence of the injury, which cut my project a little short. At least I learned not to do dips anymore.

What I learned from the actual numbers, though, was that I had two basic results:

1) A steep drop-off after round 4.

OR

2) No drop-off over 8 rounds.

My pushups might drop to 25% or less of the first-round numbers by round 4 and then flatline from there. But my air squats or v-ups wouldn't decrease at all. In fact, I started the project doing 16 squats a round. Now I can get 18, and it's just me getting a little faster off the mark and doing the squats a little faster. I often speed up from round 2-8 because I get into the groove.

In short I'd either crash fast from lack of strength, or I'd just speed through an aerobic workout.

Since then I've largely confined myself to 4-round Tabatas for the strength challenges (pushups still kill me) and use the 8-rounders when I want to get in some condition work fast.

As for the CF ideal of round after round of identical numbers, they can only be pacing. Or doing movements that are pretty easy for them. If you go all-out on something that taxes you, you're going to drop in numbers by round 8.

All in my experience. I didn't do cool charts like Gant, though!

matthew eucalitto
03-02-2009, 07:56 PM
.

I think really high-rep cals and BB exercises and plyometrics (think Filthy Fifty) result in appreciably bad form as fatigue sets in, which results in a huge drain on the system as well as a source of accumulated microtrauma due to the poor form. Running is obviously well-suited for longer stretches (assuming form is proper), as is rowing. Push-ups, box jumps, burpees, BB snatches, etc., are not. Quick question--what is the reason you left CF programming if it was so productive for you? Were your long metcons wearing you down, or possibly getting tedious/boring? Were you losing maximum strength, or not progressing? Remember always that anyone new to the CF setup always makes rapid progress, regardless of the length of their metcons.




-Just a question though, isn't there a reason to throw these in there once in a while? I realize it is very taxing on the body, and causes a breakdown in form, but does that have no benefit to an athlete intermittently throughout the year? I assume this is why these types of very long WODs don't come up that often on the CF mainsite WODs.

However, some of the affiliate websites seem to list them very often...which I believe reflects more a 'tough-guy' mentality.

Derek Weaver
03-02-2009, 11:24 PM
-Just a question though, isn't there a reason to throw these in there once in a while? I realize it is very taxing on the body, and causes a breakdown in form, but does that have no benefit to an athlete intermittently throughout the year? I assume this is why these types of very long WODs don't come up that often on the CF mainsite WODs.

However, some of the affiliate websites seem to list them very often...which I believe reflects more a 'tough-guy' mentality.

Form breakdown, depending on how severe isn't a problem. The accuracy analogy used at the CF Level 1 cert is a perfect way to explain it, they used a firing range/target example. Here's mine: If every rep is absolutely perfect, intensity isn't achieved. If every rep is sloppy, injuries will happen and intensity isn't applied properly. If there are a few reps that aren't great (but aren't so bad as to cause injury) then intensity is balanced and the workout is likely to achieve the goals of the programmer (whatever that may be).

The chipper isn't the problem. One chipper every week or two, or four weeks isn't going to hurt anyone. It's the consistent programming of high rep programming meant to last ~20-40 minutes, that so many poorly coached affiliates fall into the trap of that causes the problem. It's the CF addiction that we see too often (and I've been a part of) that screws people up. Never taking back off weeks and purposely skipping rest days is a recipe for disaster.

So yes, I agree with you, that they have their place if used correctly.

matthew eucalitto
03-03-2009, 12:20 PM
Thanks Derek, thats exactly what i was wondering. I enjoy those, but in limited doses.. once, MAYBE twice a month to really stress myself. If it comes up too often on the mainsite WOD ( which I haven't seen much of ) I will ignore it.