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Greg Battaglia
04-06-2009, 01:54 PM
Hey,
not sure if anyone around here even knows about Erwan Le Corre, but he's a French guy who has basically revamped Methode Naturelle and placed an evolutionary spin on it. Anyway, he's got a website up and running and he's going to be offering seminars this summer in the US. I'm very excited about this as I've made MovNat my main form of training and it's the best thing I've ever come across for health and fitness (even Crossfit IMHO). I plan on making this my long-term form of training supplemented by CF.

Anyway, here's the site:


http://movnat.com/



And here's a video of Erwan in action:

http://movnat.com/media/video


An excellent interview with Erwan over at Conditioning Research:

http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2009/01/erwan-le-corre.html


And finally, an article in Men's Health:

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=motivation&conitem=7d7caa4e23adf110VgnVCM10000013281eac____&page=1

Adolfo Riveron
04-06-2009, 02:02 PM
so the basic premise of this is make up a WOD outside using rocks and trees and such?

Mike ODonnell
04-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Nice site.....I like the quote:

“Do not ask yourself what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive.” Howard Thurman

Greg Battaglia
04-06-2009, 02:39 PM
Adolfo,
did you read the interview? He touches on the principles behind this method. I will say that it is similar to Crossfit in many ways, the main reason I think it's superior is because it actually gets people to learn how to move efficiently through the dynamic and unpredictable nature of the wild. You won't find uneven terrain, slippery surfaces, and mud in a Crossfit gym. Plus it gets people out in the sun (vitamin D), fresh air, and is actually very enjoyable and fun. I don't think a Crossfit workout has ever been "fun" for me. Nevertheless, I still plan on affiliating with Crossfit, but will definitely incorporate MovNat principles once I become certified by that system.

Mike,

I agree. There are plenty of good quotes on the site. I like his whole "Zoo Human" philosophy and how most people in our society just accept that poor health and unhappiness are normal.

R. Alan Hester
04-06-2009, 04:06 PM
I really dig his approach. I would love to participate in one of his Brazil seminars, with a week of BJJ camp tacked on the end. I would get my ass kicked in two different ways, but it would be enlightening nonetheless.

I agree that his would be a sound approach to long-term fitness. Obstacle course fitness is great. It is the ONLY thing I miss about the army.

What about element of CF, broadly defined, of course, would you use as a supplement?

Allen Yeh
04-06-2009, 04:13 PM
Funny I was reading that article this weekend and wanted to write up a post about it. It does seem interesting.

Steven Low
04-06-2009, 05:42 PM
Yup, the Parkour community has known about him for a while....

Nothing to new to us or anything really. :p

George Mounce
04-06-2009, 07:38 PM
Sigh, am I always the party pooper when it comes to opinions (yes I am initially critical of everything unless it proves to me it is worth time/effort/etc).

Why doesn't it have the free access of information flow, or am I missing something...If it costs something up front, then IMHO it is nothing like CrossFit. FWIW I have access to a ton of free information up front on the CF website, plus the multitudes of free information elsewhere. What makes this stand out as different? I mean the premise is sound - we should be in shape for our natural world. But already...seminars, certification...for natural movement? Really? Babies don't need a seminar to crawl, to talk, etc.

Natural movement for humans is in our DNA, I think I've been certified at that for 31 years and going.

You will rediscover all the movement skills that made our species one of the most adaptable on Earth! It involves the combined training of walking, running, jumping, balancing, moving on all fours, climbing, lifting, carrying, throwing, catching, swimming and defending.

My 7-mo old with no training from me is already learning these. Babies are born with the instincts to learn these things. Technology doesn't make people lazy, choice makes people lazy, and people frankly embrace the easy, its more efficient. But at the same time, if there were no bridges, buildings, fences, and staircases, we wouldn't have Parkour, or what the inventors of MovNat like to do! So therefore, their product comes from modern technology!

OK, /opinionoff.

Adolfo Riveron
04-06-2009, 10:24 PM
Adolfo,
did you read the interview? He touches on the principles behind this method. I will say that it is similar to Crossfit in many ways, the main reason I think it's superior is because it actually gets people to learn how to move efficiently through the dynamic and unpredictable nature of the wild. You won't find uneven terrain, slippery surfaces, and mud in a Crossfit gym. Plus it gets people out in the sun (vitamin D), fresh air, and is actually very enjoyable and fun. I don't think a Crossfit workout has ever been "fun" for me. Nevertheless, I still plan on affiliating with Crossfit, but will definitely incorporate MovNat principles once I become certified by that system.



I didnt have time, i had to run to class. ill look at it tonight

Adolfo Riveron
04-06-2009, 11:06 PM
After taking a quick look at it (assignments due tomorrow) it looks good. I already think its a good idea and a fun way to mix things up by doing outdoor wods with whatever the area gives you. The obstacle course training would be fun as well. Rocks, trees, structures, maybe even include sandbags and slosh pipes. I also agree with his diet besides the raw meat thing. Im sure most people here have similar views so nothing too earth shattering.

However i pretty much agree with George that humans pretty much already have movements in their DNA. Also its strange to me that you have almost no access to information until you pay. Maybe im spoiled by the CF and CA community that provides free info yet still have people that show up for seminars.

That is his biggest flaw.
(I also dont trust Men's Health either but thats just me.)

I will have some takeaway from it and come up with natural workouts using natural implements/obstacles but thats not consistent with my goals at the moment. Right now my goals are to improve profficiency with basic gymnastic moves and increase strength in the oly and slow lifts with enough metcon to stay in shape. Hence why im following a Gant style program. When I meet those and have no certain direction i want to go, i will certainly incorporate some of those ideas. Maybe something to play around with during a rest week or something.

Sorry for if this was a hijack

Rafe Kelley
04-06-2009, 11:24 PM
Basically my belief is that when it comes to understanding optimal human fitness an evolutionary perspective is superior to one based in sport or sports science which is were I think crossfit so far has come from, though appeals to evolutionary logic are common in crossfit the overall system is not rooted in evolutionary theory. That is what I a big part of what Erwan has been trying to do with MovNat. I have had the oppurtonity to train with with Erwan twice, once in the city of Nice and once in Corsica during part of the filming of that sampler the two shoots including a partner sparring with Erwan are me the rest of my footage apparently didn't make the cut :confused: . I have also been working with crossfits for the last 2 years and training parkour for 4 years so I think I have some perspective on the debate.

Erwans approach has worked for him that is clear, I do fairly well at crossfit met cons, my grace time is 2:34, fran is 4:45, Erwan blew me away at anything involving stamina or endurance by a fair shot and his strength was fairly comparable even superior in upper body strength despite being 30 pounds lighter then me, I can squat 345 for 3 reps, single rep 425 in the deadlift, overhead press 145 and weighted pull ups with 90 pounds so not quite a crossfit monster but decently strong I think. Combine that physical capacity with the ability to move through complex environments, to fight, to deal with odd objects and I think it is simply a more real fitness then that provided by doing solely gym based training with consistently simple tools and movements. Just the games of catch Erwan likes to play would be scare the bejesus out of most good crossfitters IMHO standing barefoot on rough boulders above the ocean trying to catch sharp rocks hurled at you by a mad french man is definitely a unique fitness challenge.

The question now is whether the system Erwan has developed to teach what he does will teach athletes to achieve the same things as effectively as what Crossfit has produced. If your intrested give some of it a try or go to a seminar if you can afford to as the say in crossfit black box it.

Steven Low
04-07-2009, 12:03 AM
Good post Rafe.

Always interesting to see some actual experience from someone who has trained with the Erwan himself, CF & Parkour.

Garrett Smith
04-07-2009, 06:04 AM
Technology doesn't make people lazy, choice makes people lazy, and people frankly embrace the easy, its more efficient. But at the same time, if there were no bridges, buildings, fences, and staircases, we wouldn't have Parkour, or what the inventors of MovNat like to do! So therefore, their product comes from modern technology!
George, didn't you know MovNat came about because of pilots spending too much time on C2 rowing machines?!?! :D

Mike ODonnell
04-07-2009, 07:47 AM
on the side note of his certs.....unless it has real potential to bring clients to the table, I wouldn't spend money on it....but that's just me from a business investment POV.

George Mounce
04-07-2009, 09:05 AM
George, didn't you know MovNat came about because of pilots spending too much time on C2 rowing machines?!?! :D

Touché...

Garrett Smith
04-07-2009, 10:47 AM
I think the MovNat is great. That being said, it would be really hard to take an out-of-shape, obese person and put them in a MovNat program to help them reach their goals (which is likely to lose bodyfat/weight) that wouldn't discourage them immediately due to their inability to do many things in the "natural" environment.

Building some basic strength in a gym environment might be a better place for folks like that to start.

The market for MovNat trainers will be so niche as to not really be marketable except in large cities with great parks (I'm thinking like Portland). There needs to be "city-fied" people with easy access to the "outdoors". That could be tough to find and market to.

Greg Battaglia
04-07-2009, 10:56 AM
Rafe,

I agree with you completely. I was thinking much of what you said, but you said it much better than me! Thanks for chiming in with your experience. I've been wanting to train with Erwan for some time now but don't have the funds to make it down to Brazil.

MOD,

Good point on the seminars. I'm having a blast just doing my own little approach to MovNat with no formal training. I just run through the woods at random, lifting heavy rocks, carrying them, sprinting, crossing streams, climbing trees and rocky structures, tossing rocks, climbing up steep hills, walking interspersed with sprints, walking across narrow logs and tree limbs to test my balance, etc. it's tons of fun and I feel great. I like this style of training more than CF because I feel vibrant and healthy after every session. With Crossfit I feel nauseous and sick after a hard workout. I think MovNat is a healthier long-term alternative.

Donald Lee
04-07-2009, 11:01 AM
Rafe,

I agree with you completely. I was thinking much of what you said, but you said it much better than me! Thanks for chiming in with your experience. I've been wanting to train with Erwan for some time now but don't have the funds to make it down to Brazil.

MOD,

Good point on the seminars. I'm having a blast just doing my own little approach to MovNat with no formal training. I just run through the woods at random, lifting heavy rocks, carrying them, sprinting, crossing streams, climbing trees and rocky structures, tossing rocks, climbing up steep hills, walking interspersed with sprints, walking across narrow logs and tree limbs to test my balance, etc. it's tons of fun and I feel great. I like this style of training more than CF because I feel vibrant and healthy after every session. With Crossfit I feel nauseous and sick after a hard workout. I think MovNat is a healthier long-term alternative.

I thought nature was great, too, until I decided to join the military. Beaches, hills, logs, trails, mud = no fun.

George Mounce
04-07-2009, 11:07 AM
I thought nature was great, too, until I decided to join the military. Beaches, hills, logs, trails, mud = no fun.

I know you said beaches, but don't forget inland sand, lots of sand. :p

I will keep watching MovNat and see where it goes.

Rafe Kelley
04-07-2009, 11:26 AM
Just wanted to addresses a common misunderstanding it is not obligatory to do Movnat training in natural enviroments, or barefoot, or bareshirted, those are just considered ideal circumstances. I have taught MovNat classes in gyms. The key thing is to train to develop increasing physical and technical capacity across all the of the fundamental natural movements and not get caught up in using only single movements to represent a movement pattern such as only box jumps for jumping or only pull ups for climbing.

Gant Grimes
04-07-2009, 01:05 PM
I'm having a blast just doing my own little approach to MovNat with no formal training. I just run through the woods at random, lifting heavy rocks, carrying them, sprinting, crossing streams, climbing trees and rocky structures, tossing rocks, climbing up steep hills, walking interspersed with sprints, walking across narrow logs and tree limbs to test my balance, etc. it's tons of fun and I feel great. I like this style of training more than CF because I feel vibrant and healthy after every session. With Crossfit I feel nauseous and sick after a hard workout.

You've found something you enjoy, and it improves your quality of life. I can't think of anything better.

Unless you're one of the people like Garrett mentioned that needs remedial training, you can do this by getting your ass outside of the gym and playing outdoor sports. Run or bike the trails. Do parkour. Take a tai chi class in the park. Paying to get certified in this is like paying for bottled water. Unfortunately it has come to that for a number of people.

Greg Battaglia
04-07-2009, 01:16 PM
Paying to get certified in this is like paying for bottled water. Unfortunately it has come to that for a number of people.

Haha, good point

I also want to state that I have no beef with CF whatsoever. Crossfit changed my life for the better a few years ago, Not to mention that it's free and incredibly effective, can't argue with that. I'm just excited about this because it's very fun and effective. I definitely agree that people who are severely overweight and out of shape would need gym training first. That's what I hope to accomplish with a CF gym, get people fit so that they can go out and enjoy life with their renewed capabilities.

P.S.
Rafe, you hold parkour seminars don't you? Do you do any in the Philly area?

Duke McCall
04-07-2009, 02:12 PM
This looks remarkably similar to what I used to do as a kid. I loved running through the woods, jumping over creeks (ocassionally landing on snakes), crawling under logs, climbing trees, etc. I had forgotten how much fun I used to have doing this. Thanks for the reminder! I think I will be going on a little "nature hike" Saturday.

George Mounce
04-07-2009, 03:27 PM
I definitely agree that people who are severely overweight and out of shape would need gym training first.

Nope, they need nutrition training first. You can retrain them to walk all you want but if they are downing Frito's and M&Ms all the time you won't be doing much good no matter how hard you push them.

Rafe Kelley
04-07-2009, 11:28 PM
You've found something you enjoy, and it improves your quality of life. I can't think of anything better.

Unless you're one of the people like Garrett mentioned that needs remedial training, you can do this by getting your ass outside of the gym and playing outdoor sports. Run or bike the trails. Do parkour. Take a tai chi class in the park. Paying to get certified in this is like paying for bottled water. Unfortunately it has come to that for a number of people.

I don't want to come across as Erwans pimp but you could say this for damn near everything people get certs for. Kids learn to lift by playing around with picking things up why bother with going to barbell or olympic lifting cert, Kenyans learn to run by running to school every day, who needs a pose cert, every kid wrestles fights etc why study martial arts every kid plays by running jumping and climbing why go to parkour teacher. Here's the thing we don't get to spend all our time playing and being physical as children there is tremendous gap between what we are physically capable of and what we express given modern lifestyles. The same reason, its worth training with BJJ black belt, a Pose certified coach, Mark rippetoe, or Parkour generations apply to MovNat. The only difference is MovNat is trying to offer a more complete physical education. Everything comes down to a cost benefits analysis but what I see here is people who have not done the training have not attempted to equal the performance dismissing the benefits without any real thought.

Greg I offer clinic were ever someone is interested in bringing me in to teach them.

Greg Battaglia
04-08-2009, 11:02 AM
Nope, they need nutrition training first. You can retrain them to walk all you want but if they are downing Frito's and M&Ms all the time you won't be doing much good no matter how hard you push them.

You're preaching to the choir on that one.

Rafe,

Good points. I agree with you that Erwan is out to help people and I think his system is great. I just don't think I would personally need to attend a MovNat seminar. I already know how to move my body properly after years of doing Crossfit. When I started my own little version of MovNat it wasn't like I had to relearn anything, I just got right to it and had a blast. The only thing I really had to get used to was running on rough terrain with minimal footwear. I may attend a seminar depedning on the price just because it would be a blast to experience this type of fun with other people.

Also, when it comes to parkour, how did you learn the movements? Was it self-taught or did you recieve training? I just want to learn the basics so I can begin to navigate the city in a fun way. I just want to expand my ability to move freely through dynamic settings.

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2009, 12:09 PM
Side note.....I need to start doing IF certs....at $1000 a pop to teach people how not to eat...then eat.

Gant Grimes
04-08-2009, 01:45 PM
Side note.....I need to start doing IF certs....at $1000 a pop to teach people how not to eat...then eat.

If CF can sell Zone certs, you could sell IF certs. Let CF package it, spend a few hours explaining how to not eat, take your fat commission check and make it rain at your local ATL "establishment."

Gant Grimes
04-08-2009, 01:48 PM
I don't want to come across as Erwans pimp but you could say this for damn near everything people get certs for. Kids learn to lift by playing around with picking things up why bother with going to barbell or olympic lifting cert, Kenyans learn to run by running to school every day, who needs a pose cert, every kid wrestles fights etc why study martial arts every kid plays by running jumping and climbing why go to parkour teacher. Here's the thing we don't get to spend all our time playing and being physical as children there is tremendous gap between what we are physically capable of and what we express given modern lifestyles. The same reason, its worth training with BJJ black belt, a Pose certified coach, Mark rippetoe, or Parkour generations apply to MovNat. The only difference is MovNat is trying to offer a more complete physical education. Everything comes down to a cost benefits analysis but what I see here is people who have not done the training have not attempted to equal the performance dismissing the benefits without any real thought.

Greg I offer clinic were ever someone is interested in bringing me in to teach them.

Rafe, you're using specific sport training examples here, but I get what you're saying. I'm just saying it's a shame that people have gotten to the point that they have to get educated on how to move like they are programmed to do!

Rafe Kelley
04-08-2009, 02:26 PM
Greg I was mostly self taught when I started training 4 years ago there was very little info available very little access to the founders and very small communities scattered around the nation nothing like now. I have had the opportunity over the last two years to travel a bit a learn from some of the best guys in england france and here in the states which has been great as far as refining my training and overcome mental boundaries the movements i mostly had to figure out on my own.

Which has made it all the more amazing to see how fast my students progress stuff that took us 6 months to figure out with good progressions we can teach students to do in course of week. It took the first girls in our scene a couple years to learn to to kong vaults with the girls I am training now I can often teach them how in a day provided they are decently fit.

Gant, agreed it is shame that we have to teach people skills that should simply come with growing up, but that is all the more reason to we need to get it out to people. I am really looking forward to seeing the kids of the first generation of people to practice things like parkour and MovNat to see what we are really capable growing up in an environment were we are encouraged to develop out movement ability its going to be beautifull thing.

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2009, 04:42 PM
If CF can sell Zone certs, you could sell IF certs. Let CF package it, spend a few hours explaining how to not eat, take your fat commission check and make it rain at your local ATL "establishment."

Oh I have some sort of evil plan like that in the works.....muuuahhhhhh......join in and you can do the "cookie dough ice cream diet" seminar.....

Allen Yeh
04-08-2009, 04:48 PM
Oh I have some sort of evil plan like that in the works.....muuuahhhhhh......join in and you can do the "cookie dough ice cream diet" seminar.....

I think the cookie dough seminar is already taken....

George Mounce
04-08-2009, 04:52 PM
Oh I have some sort of evil plan like that in the works.....muuuahhhhhh......join in and you can do the "cookie dough ice cream diet" seminar.....

"Breyer's every night, explain this diet?"

I do wonder though, MovNat brings up a point...is this just a money ploy with it going right to the certification deal? I mean come on I think this world has gone crazy with the amount of certifications which aren't certifications at all. I'm sorry, but I and many others who went to the CF level 1 cert aren't certified to do anything at that point, which is a topic of discussion in a lot of places. The fact that MovNat goes right into a Level 1 certification scares me into thinking its a money ploy. This word "certification" has become the calling card of the fitness industry.

I'm a certified military pilot. It also took me a year of my life and around 3 million taxpayer dollars and 200 hours of flight time, 3 months of academics, and a lot of booze. Even to this day, over 8 years later of flying I'm learning things, and am enjoying teaching people. These 2-day fitness certifications are just as bad as the do-it-yourself Kung-Fu books that Bruce Lee bitched about. Where will it end?

I apologize for the rant, the beer is flowing and I'm on vacation. :)

Liam Dougherty Springer
04-08-2009, 07:26 PM
"Breyer's every night, explain this diet?"

These 2-day fitness certifications are just as bad as the do-it-yourself Kung-Fu books that Bruce Lee bitched about. Where will it end?

. :)


I went to the O-Lift cert with coach Burgner and wouldn't trade the experience for anything however I agree the word certification dosen't really apply. I learned a lot and am better prepared to transfer what I know but still the word certification IMO describes a process which evaluates the participants in a pass/fail manner. This is then used to determine if someone is up to a specified level of expertise in a particular field and can help give credibility to services provided by that individual.

Mike ODonnell
04-08-2009, 07:41 PM
Spending a day with a knowledgeable person who teaches you something you value is one thing.....handing out pieces of flare for it is another.

O-lifting with coach Burgner is worth every penny for the experience and personal learning......but to call it a cert, is silly.....since no one would every recognize it in the professional world of training/coaching. Much like you can get certs for using a Bosu ball, Core training, jump roping, hopscotch or whatever else there is.

Cert is just a fancy word to charge more for a seminar....and it won't end anytime soon.

Enrique Billington
04-08-2009, 08:17 PM
I'm not trying to stir anyone's pot here, but there are some things I want to say.

MovNat is predicated upon the naturalistic fallacy. That is, the concept that "natural" (intended) ways of life exist and that abstinence from these ways is "un-natural" or "wrong". For this to be so you would have to prove that some sort of authority commanded at some point in time that humans live a particular lifestyle, and this cannot be done. Anything that can occur in the observable universe is natural. For this very reason MovNat actually contradicts evolutionary theory. It is also quite hypocritical to claim that science is not the answer to exercise; when it is nothing more than science that enabled man to understand how he and his ancestors evolved over time. Without science, MovNat would have no ground to stand on.

Truth be told it is no less natural for humans to play video games all night long and eat candy than it is for humans to spend all day scouring the field for wild game or vegetable gathering. We now have refrigerators and thus do not have to hunt every time we want to eat. We also have a serious overpopulation problem, and thus we do not have to worry about procreation, and we can enjoy sex rather than have it out of necessity. We can experiment.

Engaging in either lifestyle or a median between the two does not make anyone any more natural, better, or healthier than the other. They all involve serious risks.

It is no less effective to climb a small rock than it is to complete a Fran or some other WOD. Your body does not know the difference between climbing a rock and pulling on a bar; it will develop enhanced motor patterns when climbing so that you can climb more efficiently in the future, however the same happens during a Fran and any other exercise, nevertheless so as long as you get your heart rate at the same relative level, overcome the same resistance, the same type of force application, range of motion, force production etc, the overall effect is no different. That is, unless we're putting on our tinfoil hats and preparing for the next robot/Xenu/communist/terrorist invasion. Only then do we need to worry about survival-specific fitness.

Am I being a little harsh? Yeah, but then again so is the concept of MovNat. Zoo humans? It's pretentious to assert than modern way of life is any less natural, superior or worthwhile than MovNat. This stuff reminds me of Scientology.

Regardless MovNat offers new challenges and it's something new in a very repetitive fitness industry and I think the concept of historical fitness is an appealing one. And that's always a good thing.

Enrique Billington
04-08-2009, 08:31 PM
And Mike O'Donnell, Gant Grimes and the other guys all hit the nail on the head with their comments about certifications. Unfortunately the same can also be said about college degrees these days, in a sense, and just about everything else which has become a means of economic insurance rather than education. Used to be you went to college some other form of education system as a means of enlightenment, these days that's a farce instilled within us by the public "education" system, the government, the media and of course the credit masters who enslave us all in this sick, perverted society we live in today. I cannot begin to describe how hard I had to bite my lip when I saw the newest local "certified" Crossfit trainers out here teaching "Olympic lifting", those guys in the twenties had better technique than what they were teaching. I'm sure they didn't charge three hundred dollars a month either. The yuppies and the creditors have ruined all that had merit.

Kevin Perry
04-08-2009, 09:07 PM
And Mike O'Donnell, Gant Grimes and the other guys all hit the nail on the head with their comments about certifications. Unfortunately the same can also be said about college degrees these days, in a sense, and just about everything else which has become a means of economic insurance rather than education. Used to be you went to college some other form of education system as a means of enlightenment, these days that's a farce instilled within us by the public "education" system, the government, the media and of course the credit masters who enslave us all in this sick, perverted society we live in today. I cannot begin to describe how hard I had to bite my lip when I saw the newest local "certified" Crossfit trainers out here teaching "Olympic lifting", those guys in the twenties had better technique than what they were teaching. I'm sure they didn't charge three hundred dollars a month either. The yuppies and the creditors have ruined all that had merit.

This is why im glad im surrounded by such highly experienced coaches when i get a chance to make it out to them, various training methods that can be applied to many areas. It is invaluable. A highly skilled coach with years and years of experience cannot be replaced by a simple 1 or 2 day seminar or cert.

Rafe Kelley
04-08-2009, 10:17 PM
Enrique the use of the word natural is imprecise it is true one can make the case that everything that happens with in the universe is be definition natural, humans are natural phenomenon so everything we make is therefore natural, including candy and video games. However it is obviously ridiculous to say that eating candy and playing video games is a healthy a lifestyle as eating minimal processed diets based on animals and plants and getting regular exercise. People who live-lived in cultures were regular exercise and a "whole food" diet did not have a host of health problems we have. The use of natural in this context recognizes that gap, it may be semantically imprecise but that doesn't mean that is not describing an underlying reality.

Climbing a rock is a skill which is more practical and more in line with evolutionary demands then doing Fran that is important to recognize. Climbing a rock is still a skill that can potentially save your life pull ups and thrusters are far less likely to play directly into saving your life. We do not live in world completely removed from the dangers our ancestors faced. People are still chased down and murdered, they are still attacked by wild animals, they still have accidents, this needs to be taken into account when we decided what fitness means, what good is the ability to do 30 pull ups if you can not climb a tree when an angry grizzly is chasing you?. I know quite a few crossfitters who can run super fast 400 hundred box jump 40 plus inches and pull up with the best of them who are still completely inept in the context of simple obstacle course if the were forced to chase or escape something in complex enviroment all their work capacity would be meaningless. The "natural" physical skills of climbing, lifting, carrying, throwing, running, jumping, combat, etc are all potentially life saving in way specialized fitness systems and and sports skills are generally not. Whatever you think of the marketing language imployed by MovNat this logic should be obvious.

As far as certifications I am in complete agreement with everyone here most certifications are meaningless. I can't honestly say if the MovNat cert will be different I am not in the loop about that last time Erwan and I spoke about it what he talked about sounded significantly more rigorous then the weekend long certs popping up left and right. He does want this to be available to people and to him that means getting coaches he feels comfortable with out there as he is not a fan of the open information source parkour or even crossfit model of just giving out tons of information for various reasons.

Enrique Billington
04-08-2009, 10:46 PM
Enrique the use of the word natural is imprecise it is true one can make the case that everything that happens with in the universe is be definition natural, humans are natural phenomenon so everything we make is therefore natural, including candy and video games. However it is obviously ridiculous to say that eating candy and playing video games is a healthy a lifestyle as eating minimal processed diets based on animals and plants and getting regular exercise. People who live-lived in cultures were regular exercise and a "whole food" diet did not have a host of health problems we have. The use of natural in this context recognizes that gap, it may be semantically imprecise but that doesn't mean that is not describing an underlying reality.

I disagree. This is false. The fact that the life expectancy of humans in the developed world is higher than that of those who lived in such conditions you describe is evidence for this. The evidence against processed diets is weak; you have to ask the question whether or not more people die of obesity, diabetes and the health complications they lead to simply because the population has increased substantially and thus more people with a genetic susceptibility to these diseases has increased, and whether or not those who lived in the conditions you described didn't attain them as they often could not expect to live long enough to develop them, as the average life expectancies in these environments is usually the later teens or early twenties and early thirties. If you go to wikipedia and read the biographies of most centenarians, most of them lived the "unhealthy" lifestyles you described. Nature over nurture. Genetics play a very large role in health.


Climbing a rock is a skill which is more practical and more in line with evolutionary demands then doing Fran that is important to recognize. Climbing a rock is still a skill that can potentially save your life pull ups and thrusters are far less likely to play directly into saving your life. We do not live in world completely removed from the dangers our ancestors faced. People are still chased down and murdered, they are still attacked by wild animals, they still have accidents, this needs to be taken into account when we decided what fitness means, what good is the ability to do 30 pull ups if you can not climb a tree when an angry grizzly is chasing you?. I know quite a few crossfitters who can run super fast 400 hundred box jump 40 plus inches and pull up with the best of them who are still completely inept in the context of simple obstacle course if the were forced to chase or escape something in complex enviroment all their work capacity would be meaningless. The "natural" physical skills of climbing, lifting, carrying, throwing, running, jumping, combat, etc are all potentially life saving in way specialized fitness systems and and sports skills are generally not. Whatever you think of the marketing language imployed by MovNat this logic should be obvious.

I think they're both unlikely to save your life; however the endurance you can attain from the crossfit workouts would most likely carry over to more general situations that someone is more likely to face. The only real people who would need to climb to save their life are people that would often be in the wild, in the ranges, and thus would already have attained these skills. Usually you can just walk around a rock or find a way around a mountain; you're more likely to die trying to climb a mountain than you are looking for another way out. Furthermore I disagree that these are more necessary for life survival as they're already quite dangerous and more likely to injure someone, thus cost them, the state and the economy money than poor eating habits or smoking, in the long run. For example on that front page Erwan is climbing on a very steep rocky building, he could fall and kill himself, and in the video he is literally playing over a high tide, which could have easily swept him off of the rock and in to the water, where he could have been caught by an undertoe and killed or taken to sea. Likewise lifting and throwing heavy rocks at each other and jumping between cliffs is clearly not a very safe thing to do. If you play with fire you will eventually get burned. The more you partake in this kind of activity, the more likely you are to hurt yourself. I would say the only reason anyone would ever need these qualities to survive is if they did MovNat, such breaking your legs jumping between a waterfall and having to crawl to your car, use twigs as improvised legs to push the pedal to the metal as you steer the wheel with your teeth in an attempt to drive to the nearest zoo hum..er.. Doctor. :P

Rafe Kelley
04-09-2009, 12:55 AM
Our life expectancy is higher because of modern medicine not modern diet. Obesity is rising at astonishing rates we know obesity is related to increased morbidity you can not pretend our modern diets and lifestyles are as healthy as those of your ancestors, Life expectancy isn't the total measure of health I would rather live the vigorous healthy 50 years of hunter forager, then the inactive, diseased, obese life 75 years of a modern american. I wouldn't want to deal with the chance of starvation, disease and violence the suffered so in that sense thank god for the modern world but what why can't we have the best of both worlds in our rich west. Why do we need to trade starvation, high murder rates, and disease for obesity, diabetes, anxiety, depression, heart disease and cancer?

As far needing to use real physical skill. I have had occasion to use these types of physical skills multiple times in my life. As an adult i have been attacked twice(not counting working as bouncer), as kid way more as an adult I used kick boxing and jujitsu to get out of the situations as kid untrained fisticuffs mostly but I ran a few times and had to jump the odd obstacle. I was working door as a bouncer two years ago and one of the customers who we wouldn't allow back in punched me in the head, I pushed him away and let it go when he kicked in the window that was to much and I had to chase him down I could have caught him just running but vaulting over a planter box shortened the chase for me. I have been thrown from horses head first used martial arts rolls to come right up out of it. I have had my house catch fire and had to carry sacks of flour to put it out. My older brother broke both his ankles snowboarding out of bounds and hand to drag himself back in bound by his hands, one of my freinds died in treewell, another came close. So don't tell me emergency situations don't happen in modern life much less in most of the world that isn't as sheltered and pampered as the west. That is what rip would call Silly bullshit, if your house is on fire and the only exit is your third story window being able to climb is vital and doing pull ups isn't the same as real climbing experience.

I train crosfitters they have great engines and pick up skills quickly but without proper training there is not that big a transfer of their abilities to real world applications. Being able to do thirty pull ups will help you get up a v.0 climbing it won't mean shit if your trying a v.3 you need to have specific climbin skills, same thing in parkour when crossfitters come to us even if their fast as hell at 400 and can box jump like crazy there still scared of basic vaults, are intimidated to jump gaps that should be easy for them, and often are over agressive because of the way crossfit is training and end up bailing regularly because the refuse to go slow. Combat samething, athletic ability helps allot but if you opponent has good jab cross and your throwing hay maker usually things aren't going to go well for you if he is good wrestler and know how to shoot your even more f-ed.

As far as your likelihood of getting injured training like this, all of my major injuries came during or after periods of relatively sedentary living. I feel much safer moving through the world because of the skills I have developed.

Liam Dougherty Springer
04-09-2009, 06:26 AM
I like this thread...... we have both cleverness and intelligence represented and it has opened a great conversation on important topics in an entertaining way.... lets not get mad about it though, rejoice in our ability to learn and relate..... remember this is what a forum is about not all great minds think alike. I don't have to agree to appreciate a great mind.

Brian Stone
04-09-2009, 06:50 AM
I see a bit of both points to an extend re: what is "natural," but I have to agree with Rafe here. I don't agree that we can call anything natural that humans ultimately are able to do, or at least not equally natural. A movement that stresses a join beyond it's evolved range of motion, for example, is unnatural. Eating foods that our adapted digestive system has difficulty digesting and adapting to is unnatural.

CrossFit uses the term "functional," which could for the sake of movement more or less be used interchangeably, in my opinion.

Greg Battaglia
04-09-2009, 09:48 AM
Enrique,

What pharmaceutical company do you work for? ...........just kidding!

In all seriousness, I think you make some good points, but overall Rafe's argument is far stronger IMHO.

When it comes down to it, getting the best of both worlds is the way to go if you ask me.

Liam Dougherty Springer
04-09-2009, 11:33 AM
Enrique,

When it comes down to it, getting the best of both worlds is the way to go if you ask me.

Brilliant! This brings about the need for caution and personal discrepancy in adopting any practice.

No amount of scientific data can convince me in the persuasive manner experience can.


By the way Rafe's WO Log looks pretty bad ass and not far off or diferent at all from what many of us in the individual hybrid programming relm do already.

Garrett Smith
04-09-2009, 12:38 PM
What about simply using the word "beneficial"?

Patrick Donnelly
04-09-2009, 08:55 PM
...is this just a money ploy with it going right to the certification deal?

It's funny how you said that as if it were a question.

Enrique Billington
04-11-2009, 01:34 AM
Good points Rafe.

Bill Ennis
04-11-2009, 10:28 AM
Greg ;
Thanks so much for posting this info . I never heard of Erwan and just looked at the site out of curiousity . But now I am very intrigued and interested ! I can read some French (with a little dictionary help ) and have looked at some of the old Methode Naturelle stuff online and it's pretty interesting .
I'm 47 and got involved in Crossfit about two years ago mainly because I didn't want to be a typical 47 year old guy who can't run or do anything physical to save his life ; literally and figuratively . Crossfit pointed me in the right direction but I mostly do the CA WOD now but I'm thinking of adding on a MovNat inspired workout at the end of each CA WOD . I live right next to a big park and I'm sure there are plenty of things to climb , jump over or throw in the park . I try and eat a Paleo type diet and MovNat is like a Paleo version of Crossfit- boil it all down to natural , unprocessed exercises .
Rafe - I'd be interested in attending one of Erwan's seminars ( I'm in New Hampshire ) but want to know from you , what do you think that might add ? It seems that Movnat takes ~ 10/11 basic movements and exercises and strings them together in various ways . If I know what those are and look at some Parkour info to refine them a little/alot , I could just do this on my own . But I'm curious what would be missing that Erwan could add to complete the picture .
Thanks again for all the info- it looks like fun.
Bill

Allen Yeh
04-11-2009, 05:14 PM
The Mens health had a MovNat workout in there, I'd be curious as to what else they would recommend?

Rafe Kelley
04-13-2009, 01:05 PM
Bill I would definately encourage you to go do some training in the woods after your CA wood, run, jump logs and rocks, climb tree's crawl under things its very rewarding and athletically developmental.

As far as what you learn from going to seminar as opposed to trying to pick it all up yourself. I trained myself in parkour mostly from internet videos it took me months to learn things i can now teach people in a few weeks MovNat is not just parkour out in the woods though it goes as deeply into combative training and weight manipulative training as it does the locomotive training as seen in parkour. Beyond safely learning all of these different aspects theres learning how to effectively combine them. I am not saying one couldn't build your own system that achieves similar ends by studying all the component parts and experimenting with how to put it together its going to be much slower learning curve then training with MovNat coach.

Matt DeVoe
04-13-2009, 04:14 PM
I trained MovNat with Rafe and Erwan early last summer. At the time I already had 5+ years martial arts experience, parkour for the previous 1.5 years and CF 2 years prior; I came away with clarity and new perspectives on everything from general health and human performance to better personal kinesthetics. It definitely helped reorient how I look at total human fitness and wellness...completely changed my training for the better.
FUN AS HELL and definitely worth a look by anybody who's remotely interested.

Bill Ennis
04-14-2009, 08:27 AM
Hi Matt and Rafe ;
I am very excited by MovNat and was hoping and figuring that your responses would be what they were . Hopefully my question did not come across negatively , because it wasn't intended that way- just trying to get a sense of the entire experience from people who have trained with Erwan .
I am really hoping to take a seminar with Erwan- I agree it would accelerate my progress . If you guys can help convince Erwan to come to the Northeast of the US , I'm sure there are plenty of people who would come to a seminar/certification . I'm keeping my fingers crossed and watching the MovNat website .
Rafe - I've enjoyed visiting your blog and experience with MovNat . I actually did a MovNat inspired workout yesterday in the park next to me - I just had to warn the two mothers with their little children that I was just running thru the edges of the playground . They were fine but I don't want the cops called .It was fun and fatiguing , about 17 minutes incorporating almost all the capacities listed .
Once again , keeping my fingers crossed for a MovNat event in the Northeast.
Thanks again for your answers.
Bill