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View Full Version : Rapid Fat Loss vs. Velocity Diet


Emily Mattes
04-14-2009, 07:20 AM
I'm 5'6'', 173, ~25-26% body fat, currently halfway into Week 2 of the Velocity Diet, and I have only lost a total of two or three pounds total.

Last time I did the V-Diet I only lost six pounds across the whole month (and it's not for lack of body fat to lose), so I'm worried this will be a repeat. I thought last time it was because I hadn't used Metabolic Drive past the first five or six days and I hadn't done NEPA, but this time I'm using MD the whole way through and doing at least 30 minutes of NEPA a day on top of Olympic lifting four times a week and the results are looking to pan out the same.

I'm thinking of switching to Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss plan, but don't want to cut out on the V-Diet early. Normally I would just chill out on the V-Diet, see if it works, and try RFL after, but there are two considerations: first, I need to drop fifteen pounds by June 15th, and second, starting the first week of May my coach is putting me on a strength cycle and does not want me on any extreme diets. Therefore, I have until the end of April and the end of April only to get a head start on the fifteen pounds so I can lose the rest at a reasonable rate through May and June.

Could someone give me any advice on the merits (or not) of switching? Anyone have experience with both diets?

Previous to this, I lost a little under twenty pounds at a reasonable rate since November, then the past month or two got derailed and plateaued. It was on a pretty low-carb diet, with the calories higher than I get on the V-Diet but the carbs lower.

Steven Low
04-14-2009, 09:43 AM
6 lbs in a month is actually good. 1 lbs a week is actually probably standard recommendation, and it's not like you are actually in obese BF%...

If you're plateauing after 2-3 weeks then may switch up the diet. I would ride out the current one until it doesn't work anymore TBH.

I don't have any experience with each though so I can't help you there.

Derek Weaver
04-14-2009, 11:24 AM
How long had you been dieting before this current run on the V-Diet?

Emily Mattes
04-14-2009, 12:04 PM
I was seriously keeping on top of my diet from December to mid-February, at which point a job derailed me for a few weeks and after that I wasn't completely on the horse.

Also, I would be pretty happy with 6lbs in a month if it wasn't the Velocity Diet. I can lose 6-8 lbs in a month on the previous diet I was following--the goal of the V-Diet was to speed things along a bit. If I can lose the same amount of weight on solid foods while eating a bit more and not sacrificing workouts, then why V-Diet/RFL at all? I expected a bit more from something that said there would be Amazing! Results! if I lived off of starvation levels of protein shakes for a month.

Dave Van Skike
04-14-2009, 01:41 PM
Women I think have not always had stellar results with the V-diet, plus you're not all giant and fat, so 6 pounds in a month is real progress at your current BF.

If I were you, I'd stick it out to the end of the diet but feel free to mix in real food instead of shakes. I did a modified v-diet and lost 28 pounds. 20 of which stayed off, I had a cheat meal every weekend and ate meat for dinner every night. Buy Lyle's book and start tweaking in a way that makes it more sustainable and DO count calories.

Steven Low
04-14-2009, 04:44 PM
What Dave said.

You gotta remember that the more BF you lose the hard it is to get more pounds to come off.

Just like strength... the stronger you get the harder it is to make any "significant" progress. We're all fighting for mostly 5-10 lbs PRs while novices could do that every week.

Derek Weaver
04-15-2009, 12:32 PM
Emily,
Where do you have your calories set on the V-Diet? I failed miserably attempting the V-Diet (headaches and intense loss of strength caused me to abandon it), but I think it has its merits for people able to keep up with it.

Mike ODonnell
04-15-2009, 01:02 PM
Do low carbs/low cal during the week.....do higher (whole food) carbs (less fat) with maintenance calories on weekend. Carbs can help reset that whole "leptin" thing that may be key to dieting long term.

Too much crash dieting will crash your metabolic system. Crash your metabolic system and you will eventually rebound and gain it all back. Hence words like "velocity" and "rapid" with a word like "diet" is probably not a lasting solution.

Emily Mattes
04-15-2009, 01:24 PM
Calories for V-Diet are at about 1350/1700. Calories for diet pre-V-Diet were at 1800-2100 (higher during my squat cycle, lower off of it). I was pretty much doing what you suggest, Mike, since I'd have a moderate cheat meal/day about once a week.

I definitely do not see RFL or V-Diet as a long-term maintenance solution. As stated, it was a way to enable me to reach my goal of 155 or 19% body fat by June 15th (mainly because I made an unwise bet in November that I would have to get a tattoo of a Disney Princess if I didn't). If this was for a vacation or a wedding or something else it wouldn't be stressing me out as much.

Mike ODonnell
04-15-2009, 06:05 PM
what's your workout schedule?

Women tend to need alot more slo-go movement for weight loss than men.....intervals alone won't cut it.

Calories for V-Diet are at about 1350/1700.

For a quick weight loss diet....that seems rather high for a woman. Considering Zone would have most at like 1000 cal and precontest figure models are at cycles of 800 cal with 45min of walking daily (sometimes twice) to not waste muscle.

Derek Weaver
04-15-2009, 07:36 PM
What Mike said. More movement, fewer high intensity sessions steady lifting and fewer calories.

Did you use the nifty V-Diet Calculator?

In addition to helping restore leptin to more normal levels, carb refeeds are good to help get thyroid going.

At 26% BF I would do one per week at most, and like Dave said, DO count calories.

Emily Mattes
04-16-2009, 03:56 AM
Yeah, the V-Diet caculator actually put me at 1400-1500/1800, at least for Velocity Diet 3.0. I'm using 2.0 levels.

I will work on incorporating more NEPA, I guess. Lord I hate that stuff. Will probably be stopping the V-Diet, though, as it doesn't seem to be doing that great.

Allen Yeh
04-16-2009, 04:31 AM
How much NEPA are you doing?

What other supplements?

Mike ODonnell
04-16-2009, 10:03 AM
How much NEPA are you doing?

There should be a forum penalty for using any technical abbreviated terms found at T-nation.....as walking used to be good enough, now we need to call it NEPA?

Allen....you are in forum time out for 1 day. Now go think about what you have done. Ha.

Dave Van Skike
04-16-2009, 10:12 AM
There should be a forum penalty for using any technical abbreviated terms found at T-nation.....as walking used to be good enough, now we need to call it NEPA?

Allen....you are in forum time out for 1 day. Now go think about what you have done. Ha.

What's wrong with the national environmental policy act?

Emily, I would say stick it out, ramp up daily walking....a lot, this kind of general low cost excercise absolutely rules for recovery, mental health and background kcal burn.

and start folding in real food under the same basic policies of a the diet. very low calories, zero to no carbs, adequate supplements of fish oil. I bet you'll learn more by tweaking it than you will by bailing out. everyone is a science expirement on one.

Arien Malec
04-16-2009, 11:45 AM
What Dave said, plus carb-ups/higher calorie days timed around larger workouts at a frequency commensurate with your %BF (every 8-10 days at your currently %BF, and trending downward as you lean out).

E.g.,:

8 days LC/low calorie, with your regular program + walking + biking/rowing/swimming

Note: a good protocol for fat loss is: your regular weight training workout or high intensity interval/metcon + 30 minutes walking/rowing/biking/etc + a high intensity finisher.

At the end of the 8 days, after an particularly intense workout, do a post-workout carb up then continue for ~2 days with normal calorie, somewhat higher carb eating, then back to the grind.

Shrink that 8 days as you lean out.

I bet that's more like RFL than Velocity... (I have UD2.0 and SFS but not RFL, but Lyle's the man).

Arien Malec
04-16-2009, 11:47 AM
One more point: women have a hard time cutting calories enough to trigger rapid fat loss without going into metabolic shutdown, so need more effort to create a deficit -- thus the importance of things like walking/rowing/swimming/biking/running, etc.

Arien Malec
04-16-2009, 11:50 AM
Still one more point: All out war for 4 weeks, then go back to your regular program. Then, before Disney Princess Tatoo (DPT) time, schedule another all out war. Plus, you can do another trick a week out from DPT time, and manipulate water loss to get you under the magic threshhold. Anything to avoid DPT....

Emily Mattes
04-16-2009, 06:54 PM
Well, my job is basically NEPA, since I work in a coffeeshop/cafe and am moving around all day. But on top of that I was doing 30 minutes walking on workout days, 45 minutes on rest days, with at least 15 minutes of that fasted.

Supplements, I was taking a B-complex, multivitamin, biotin, iron supplement, magnesium, and zinc. I ran out of ZMA, otherwise I'd be taking that instead of the magnesium and zinc.

I've started to actually gain weight (!) so I've decided I'm stopping the diet for now. I'm going to go back to my normal methods that worked (if at a slower rate than the Velocity Diet is supposed to work), and see where that gets me. If in a month it looks like I'm going to be totally screwed without drastic measures, I'll investigate Rapid Fat Loss.

I guess I didn't expect 25-26% to be at that point where it was that difficult to lose weight. I thought crazy amounts of NEPA and super low-calories and all that crazy stuff was something women only needed when they wanted to drop much below 18-19%. I mean, ultimately, I don't want the tattoo, so I'm going to get there, but if it's going to be water weight it'll be water weight. If getting to a "true" weight of 155 or 19% body fat is going to require two hours of fasted walking every day and living off of chicken and broccoli for the rest of my life, screw that.

Derek Weaver
04-16-2009, 07:36 PM
Have you had any blood work done? It seems pretty early for metabolic slowdown to crash so severely that you've put weight on...

Emily Mattes
04-16-2009, 07:56 PM
I haven't had work done. The thing is, like I said, when I stuck to it my previous diet was working at a pretty good 1-2lbs/week clip, sometimes more. The only time it stopped working was when I stopped adhering to it. The Velocity Diet was just to speed things up with its promises of 15! POUNDS! OF BODY FAT LOSS! and ensure I hit my goal weight. Basically, I got a little bit panicked and a little bit greedy.

If, with my old program, weight loss remains halted I would see about getting my thyroid and all of that checked.

Mike ODonnell
04-17-2009, 08:39 AM
Eat less, move more, cheat intermittently.

Find an eating plan that does work, find a schedule of low/high cal days that does work, find a schedule of low/high carb days that does work......there is something that will. I'm guessing you will do well with some ratio of low cal/carb to high cal/carb days of 3:1 to 5:1....but only you will find out what does work.

Gittit Shwartz
04-18-2009, 03:56 AM
If, with my old program, weight loss remains halted I would see about getting my thyroid and all of that checked.

Why not check it now? If you do find a problem it can take time to get it sorted out.

In general, I would put more faith in a Lyle program than a t-nation one. More science, less hype, and he is not trying to sell you anything (except his books, and even that is just so he can prove to one more person that he's right).

Emily Mattes
04-18-2009, 10:41 AM
I don't have insurance and my income is low, so I try to avoid going to the doctor unless I'm absolutely sure I have to.

Derek Weaver
04-18-2009, 04:04 PM
Why not check it now? If you do find a problem it can take time to get it sorted out.

In general, I would put more faith in a Lyle program than a t-nation one. More science, less hype, and he is not trying to sell you anything (except his books, and even that is just so he can prove to one more person that he's right).

The sad part is that he's still fairly obscure and people tend to be pretty ingrained with their ideas when they finally find out who he is (I know I was.)

Emily,
A decent test you can do on yourself is test your morning temperature, first thing. Figure out what your normal temp. is. If that's awful low (of course, hardly anyone runs exactly 98.6 degrees) then you know something's up. if you're in range and experience a drop, then you can move from there.

Just kind of a range finder if you will.

Mike ODonnell
04-19-2009, 07:29 AM
Go out....eat a big pizza....have some ice cream....go to bed....wake up and see if you feel leaner the next day.....if so, metabolism is reset.....it's a very simple and unscientific test....but a heck of alot more fun.

Allen Yeh
04-21-2009, 05:33 PM
Good stuff in here as usual from Lyle McDonald:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/not-losing-fat-at-20-deficit-what-should-i-do-qa.html

Derek Weaver
04-21-2009, 07:05 PM
Go out....eat a big pizza....have some ice cream....go to bed....wake up and see if you feel leaner the next day.....if so, metabolism is reset.....it's a very simple and unscientific test....but a heck of alot more fun.

And unfortunately one that tends to work better for people already closer to their goals. People a little farther off need to be a bit more careful.

You're right though.... it's a lot of fun.

Mike ODonnell
04-22-2009, 09:17 AM
And unfortunately one that tends to work better for people already closer to their goals. People a little farther off need to be a bit more careful.

You're right though.... it's a lot of fun.

Frequency of those types of loading days will differ greatly between people with low BF (who can get away with more) vs people with higher BF%. But also....1 day of eating up does not crush a weight loss plan....as the body thinks in calorie load terms over days and weeks....not hours. Anyone can pig out one day and then ramp it back down to counteract it the following days. But the metabolic signals through refeeds may be the lacking part of someone who is plateauing with weight loss....especially if there is a history of more prolonged low cal/carb dieting.

Effects of short-term carbohydrate or fat overfeeding on energy expenditure and plasma leptin concentrations in healthy female subjects

OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of excess carbohydrate or fat intake on plasma leptin concentrations and energy expenditure.

DESIGN: Ten healthy lean females were studied: (a) during a 3 day isoenergetic diet (ISO); (b) during 3 day carbohydrate overfeeding (CHO OF); and (c) during 3 day fat overfeeding (FAT OF). During each test, basal metabolic rate, the energy expended during mild physical activity and recovery, and 24 h energy expenditure (24 h EE) were measured with indirect calorimetry. The concentrations of glucose and lactate were monitored in subcutaneous interstitial fluid over a 24 h period using microdialysis. Plasma hormone and substrate concentrations were measured in a blood sample collected in the morning of the fourth day.

RESULTS: CHO OF increased plasma leptin concentrations by 28%, and 24 h EE by 7%. Basal metabolic rate and the energy expended during physical activity were not affected. FAT OF did not significantly change plasma leptin concentrations or energy expenditure. There was no relationship between changes in leptin concentrations and changes in energy expenditure, suggesting that leptin is not involved in the stimulation of energy metabolism during overfeeding. Interstitial subcutaneous glucose and lactate concentrations were not altered by CHO OF and FAT OF.

CONCLUSIONS: CHO OF, but not FAT OF, increases energy expenditure and leptin concentration.

Lyle has a relevant post on fat loss at higher bf% today as well:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/not-losing-fat-at-20-deficit-what-should-i-do-qa.html

T-nation actually has a good article on Leptin overview as well: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_science/the_leptin_manifesto

Daniel Olmstead
04-22-2009, 03:57 PM
What is a sufficiently low level of carb intake that you would consider a carb day? I eat around 100g/day, so figured that it didn't apply to me - I've always assumed it was for the under 30g club.

Derek Weaver
04-22-2009, 04:04 PM
What is a sufficiently low level of carb intake that you would consider a carb day? I eat around 100g/day, so figured that it didn't apply to me - I've always assumed it was for the under 30g club.

I don't get the question? In terms of carbohydrate refeeds?

Mike,
High fat (pizza, wings etc.) carb refeeds tend to be disastrous. Someone who puts down 10k worth of kcals divided between high carb and high fat in a day will seriously derail their goals.

Mike ODonnell
04-22-2009, 04:23 PM
Someone who puts down 10k worth of kcals divided between high carb and high fat in a day will seriously derail their goals.

If someone is putting down 10k of calories in one day....they have some other deep issues. Also one must have lower calories days to counter act a higher day. It's still all a numbers game to make it all work....but the main lesson being with fat loss in general....if one way isn't working, then time to change up the numbers somehow.

Derek Weaver
04-22-2009, 05:58 PM
If someone is putting down 10k of calories in one day....they have some other deep issues. Also one must have lower calories days to counter act a higher day. It's still all a numbers game to make it all work....but the main lesson being with fat loss in general....if one way isn't working, then time to change up the numbers somehow.

I agree. I also think it's easy to let calories sneak up on you (it happens to me all the time) when there's high fat, high carb, decent protein foods that tend to be "night out" foods. Sushi fits this one and is my vice, but so does pizza, beer, hotwings (another of my vices), burgers, ice cream etc.

Mike ODonnell
04-23-2009, 07:50 AM
I agree. I also think it's easy to let calories sneak up on you (it happens to me all the time) when there's high fat, high carb, decent protein foods that tend to be "night out" foods. Sushi fits this one and is my vice, but so does pizza, beer, hotwings (another of my vices), burgers, ice cream etc.

I use the rule of thumb that protein is not a priority on higher carb days....and fat should be kept in check. Of course I don't count calories either...and been known to put down a whole pizza without flinching....and still be hungry.

Derek Weaver
04-23-2009, 09:58 AM
I use the rule of thumb that protein is not a priority on higher carb days....and fat should be kept in check. Of course I don't count calories either...and been known to put down a whole pizza without flinching....and still be hungry.

Yeah, I end up doing this at the sushi bar. The sodium load tends to be the worst part about it.

Miranda Sierra
10-22-2009, 09:51 AM
I do not think that there is a magic pill or formula for dropping those unwanted pounds. I myself have been overweight, I tried everything from weighltloss pill to dieting but nothing really work for me. Heard from my friend Christopher Guerriero that we are fat because of Candida Albicans which is apparently responsible why we have cellulite and why it is hard for us to lose weight.

Steven Low
10-22-2009, 10:13 AM
I do not think that there is a magic pill or formula for dropping those unwanted pounds. I myself have been overweight, I tried everything from weighltloss pill to dieting but nothing really work for me. Heard from my friend Christopher Guerriero that we are fat because of Candida Albicans which is apparently responsible why we have cellulite and why it is hard for us to lose weight.
What?

Do you know what candida albicans is? And why it should have NOTHING to do with being overweight?

Miranda Sierra
11-14-2009, 06:03 PM
Wow! You guys are all so amazing, keep up the awesome work ^_^