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Jeremy Jones
01-25-2007, 02:11 PM
I have had this idea brewing in my head to help people get started on a macro nutrient balanced diet easier (with a higher success rate).

I know that a lot of people had great success, albeit temporarily, using the Atkins diet. Most of what I have heard is that most people could do it for a few weeks to a few months before they would cave in and fall off the wagon.

I have observed for many people trying the Zone, the way of balancing carbs, prot, and fat is complicated and has a lot of room for error. People have a hard time keeping up the routine of weighing and measuring, and the flexibility of the carb types allows people to go 'off the reservation'.

Combine this with the experiences of the Velocity Diet, and the 'surrendering' of choice that Dan John found so effective.


Maybe a good way to start some people down the road to a healthy diet is to move them through stages.

Start them on something similar to the Atkins diet. . . very few to no carbs, lean protein, and healthy fats. They will drop a lot of water weight, but most importantly, they will go 'cold turkey' on the carbohydrates. We all know how hard it can be to break the body's addiction to carbs, especially when it keeps getting doses on a regular basis. Basically we are going to shock the system into a 'fat burning' machine like it is supposed to be. They are not going to do any math to figure out their meals, they are not going to have a lot of options, they are going to have to eat protein, take vitamins, and drink water. On a side note, the water weight lost will keep them motivated.

After a period of time (I haven't figured it out yet), they could start bringing in the healthy carbs. During the first phase, they could learn about healthy carbohydrates and how much of each category belongs in a meal. The second phase would be to let them eat healthy carbohydrates. After a month or so of no carbs, even healthy ones would seem wonderful.

Phase 3 would be time to introduce Intermittent Fasting (only if everything else is going right).


What are you're thoughts?

Mike ODonnell
01-25-2007, 05:12 PM
Jeremy I do exactly that for clients.....2 weeks nothing but veggies, healthy fats and meat...let them get rid of sugar and grains from their diet....then allow them to reintroduce the carbs in a zone way. Zone is a good way for beginners to learn portion control. More advanced people may be able to come up with their own style like an athletes zone or paleo...but in the beginning I want them to understand and put the effort in to learning what are good calories and what are not. Just have to keep the calories at where they need to be for continued weight loss.

In my experience I also allow one cheat meal a week....so people dont feel deprived and fall off the band wagon.

More advanced athletes I would get more complicated programs to involve more PWO carbs timing for recovery.

Fasting is something I introduce people to...but like anything, they need to accept that on their own terms and will try it when they are ready....otherwise I look like the crazy guy making them fast.

Billy_Brummel
01-25-2007, 07:55 PM
It makes sense to me. I think people are naturally inclined to do things (especially diet) in phases. It makes things seem not so "extreme" and more manageable for them. A lot of people say "measuring my food for blocks is too much of a pain" (myself included), but after a few weeks of just meat and veggies, they'll be cheering when they get out the measuring cups for the good carbs.

Jeremy Jones
01-26-2007, 02:49 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of 'no carbs' for the first phase.


The idea is to not allow any 'fudging', to force the body to burn fat, and to break the carb addiction.

I used to think cheat meals were good, but now I lean more toward avoiding them for beginners (after the first couple weeks). I find that even one 'cheat' can make a beginner remember what they are missing and give up completely.

Billy_Brummel
01-26-2007, 03:55 PM
...I knew there was a reason I always did poorly on those standardized tests!! Bad reading comprehension.

I still like your idea.

Steve Liberati
01-26-2007, 05:07 PM
I don't doubt for a second that the suggestions mentioned will make the transition much easier for most people to follow. In fact, I'm sure we can think of more of these tactics to help our clients ease off the carbs they so desperately crave and supposedly just cannot live without.

But I think the problem still comes down to consistency and duration. Will the client continue to follow the program beyond the obtained goal? What happens when summer time comes around and little time is made for cooking healthy meals and following the diet? Will s/he stick to Zone portions or Paleo selections when friends are sharing a pie of pizza and/or enjoying a hamburger with fries (enjoying the spices of life)? You might say, "well thats where will power comes into play." And I would agree.

But more important than any program or tactic for making the transition easier and ensuring a high long-term success rate is the mind-set factor.

Before I go further, please forgive me if I sound like Tony Robbins or Zig Zagler. This is just something I've been thinking and experimenting with for some time now...

How to help people eat better and do it consistently over the long haul...I think the best advice on this topic can be found in one of the Rich Dad's books. I think it was the Cashflow Quadrant if not mistaken.

Anyway, it talks about the BE-DO-HAVE principle. If you haven't read the book it goes like this:

"Goals are the 'have' part of the three works. Goals such as to have a nice body, or to have great health, or to have a million dollars (insert whatever you like). Once most people figure out what they want to have, their goal, they begin listing what they have 'to do.' That is why most people have "To Do" lists. They set their goal and then begin doing.

What most people do when they want a perfect body is go on a diet, and then go to the gym. This lasts for a few weeks and then most are back to the old diet of French fries and pizza, and instead of going to the gym, they watch baseball on TV. This is an example of 'doing' instead of 'being.'

"Its not the diet that counts; it's who you have to be to follow the diet that counts. Yet, every year millions of people look for the perfect diet to follow in order to become thin. They focus on what they have to do, rather than who they have to be. A diet will not help if your thoughts do not change."

So if you want to have a nice body and have a great health the doing is the easy part. Its the being thats the difficult part. As trainers/coaches its our job to help change the mind-set of our clients so following a healthy lifestyle is not so much short-term gain as it is a life-time committment.

I think one way we can do this (besides discussing of course) is to give reading assignments each week. May sound a little far fetched at first but I really believe it could have a major impact on the client's success and retention rate. For example, first week would be the paleo week. Second week would be a few selected posts from Art D's blog (print it out) third week assign "Lights Out" and so on.

I know at least for me....gaining an evolutionary outlook has completely changed (for the better) the way I look at fitness and health. It just makes eating good and working out consistently seem so much more natural and easier than it did before. Before it was more of a chore and just something I had to do.

Now its more satisfying and fun.

Mike ODonnell
01-26-2007, 05:29 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of 'no carbs' for the first phase.

You are not going to get much carbs with the just veggies rule (aka no fruit, no potatoes, corn, peas...lucky to get 30g a day)

I used to think cheat meals were good, but now I lean more toward avoiding them for beginners (after the first couple weeks). I find that even one 'cheat' can make a beginner remember what they are missing and give up completely.

I disagree and see the exact opposite...I tell people eat right all week and reward yourself (except in the first 2 weeks, no cheat meals). People fall off diets all the time because they menatlly feel deprived. Instead of deprivation, you must create a sense of permanent lifestyle change. Some may be hard core enough to go cold turkey...but most arent. Their choices for cheat meals will reinforce good eating because after they get a good clean metabolism, throwing desert and other sugar items will crush them and make them feel like absolute crap....and the next time they think about that chocolate cake...guess what they will remember. I have had great success and I think cheat meals are a huge part of the mental game....plus they are only allowed a cheat meal if their eating is on track the rest of the time...they have to earn it.

Like Steve said above...it is really about educating people on why they need to eat and what...if they understand how their body works and what makes it run good....and what makes it run bad....then they will look at food differently. Most people Live to Eat....when they need to Eat to Live. I like mental games like telling them "Everytime you put sugar in your mouth you are saying that you do not want to burn fat for the next 3-4 hours"....things like that stick with people.

Allison Barns
01-27-2007, 03:05 PM
Steve! Your long post was totally worth reading for me! What's the book you are refering to? I think I need it! I agree with the "BE-HAVE-DO principle" as you described. Shifting my thinking from "I want to be an athlete" or, more honestly, "I want to have an athelete's body" to "I am an athlete" has helped me tremendously. (I still don't believe myself all the time, but I'm working on me;).

Thanks for your long post!

Allison Barns
01-27-2007, 03:16 PM
"Everytime you put sugar in your mouth you are saying that you do not want to burn fat for the next 3-4 hours"....things like that stick with people.

Mike - I LIKE that. And I will think of you next time I am tempted with sugar!

I agree that testing yourself with cheat food is a good way to remind yourself why you are eating in a different way. It worked for me when my gluten/dairy intolerance was found. I'd eat clean for several weeks and then get tempted ("oh, one bite of cake won't hurt").... but it DID hurt and the nasty gremlin using my gut for a punching bag was a strong reminder that the moment in the mouth was NOT worth it. Now the temptation is no longer there - I can look at it and the memory reminds me it's just not a good idea.

Robb Wolf
01-27-2007, 06:40 PM
We have wrangled with this a bunch. I think the meat and veggies thing is sooo damn easy and effective. It just turns things around immediately...no arguing over toast, juice, beans etc. Even an athlete who is cranking along with their training can benefit from depleting their liver and muscular glycogen for perhaps the first time in their lives. Make them more efficient at burning fat and then introduce carbs as necessary to support activity.

This was an ongoing source of frustration for me when I was part of crossfit as the party line was "All you need is Zone"...except for all the celiacs and the fact that refined carbs in ANY amount derails many, many people. An of course it would be IMPOSSIBLE to eat 40/30/30 with "meat and veggies, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and not sugar..." bullocks.

Everyone from Sears to Poliquin comment that some folks are carb tolerant and some are not. I think the folks who do well on the Zone are relatively carb tolerant. I remember the first crossfit certification Nicole Carrol went to...she was still vegetarian and eating a relatively low protein diet but had capped delts and her abs were up. She is leaner and more muscular now with the Zone and seems to do great on the Zone but when I eat Zone parameter carbs I start getting carb related hunger pangs...unless everything is veggies but then I need 4hrs per day just to chew my food. I'm fairly disciplined but that is a deal breaker for me. As is the issue of how do I eat soups, stews and cook for 2, 3, or 5 people. I think the Zone is a nice tool in many ways and can be PERFECT for your OCD clients who thrive on knowing exactly what to eat. Other people if you can get them to buy some organic salad greens, steam some asparagus and buy a rotisserie chicken on the way home from work...getting ready to feed the kids and help with homework...that is all they can manage and likely all they NEED.

Steve-
You bring up some interesting points about the psychology, about how people need to frame things to keep priorities straight. I suspect there are 4-8 archetypes along the lines of the Meyers-Briggs personality type (http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp)

Just a guess, nothing solid. We are working on a screening method to determine if someone would do well with a stringent "eat this, weigh and measure everything" method versus a "meat, veggies, good fats" approach.

Over time I've realized that I need to be aggressive from day one about nutrition. Much like what Mike mentioned...folks need to earn cheat meals. From day one I need to tell them if they do not comply with the nutrition and lifestyle I wont work with them. Oddly enough it improves compliance AND retention. I think folks actually affect some real change as well. In the past I was very hands off...loads of educational material but I "let them find their own way". that is bullshit...and was a disservice. This may sound nuts but "we" are the only people who are going to give our clients the real deal. They will not get information that promotes health from their doctor, priest, dietitian, politician or TV news anchor-person. Oprah is trying to kill them, they just don't' know it, and neither does Oprah.

For a dedicated person, with a bit of time and a desire to bring their game up the weighing and measuring of the Zone is a nice place to get them going. For a stressed out, single mom who works 45-50 hrs per week, who is trying to get her kid to swimming and piano practice weighing and measuring ala the Zone is a phocking pharse. Getting the same individual to eat some scrambled eggs and a hand full of nuts for breakfast, a can of salmon over salad greens for lunch and a rotisserie chicken and steamed asparagus for dinner is doable.

Sorry if this was a little random...I can REALLY jabber on this topic.

Elliot Royce
01-27-2007, 07:38 PM
For me, diet works best as a trend, rather than as an absolute. I think of it like skiing -- almost no one skis straight downhill, you always need to make a few detours, but if you keep the skis pointed downhill, you will make it to the bottom. Otherwise you start to obsess and your mind and body turn against you.

"A cube of sugar will get the largest horse to change its direction."

Mike ODonnell
01-27-2007, 08:30 PM
When I ski....I tend to stop off at the lodge half way down for a shot.

Elliot Royce
01-28-2007, 07:47 AM
Hence the Guinness as the foundation of your diet!

Frank Needham
01-28-2007, 07:50 AM
Hide boda bags and flasks at strategic locations instead, its really enjoyable on a nice sunny day...

Mike ODonnell
01-28-2007, 11:33 AM
Centuries of genetic makeup has made my Irish heritage DNA excel better with Guinness...no use fighting evolution.

I like Robb's No BS approach.....more trainers need that attitude. I see too many collecting a pay check to just count reps without doing anything worthwhile for a client. I look at my job as if my client isnt getting results....I should be fired. Which leaves me torn between the Zone and a more veg/meat attitude. Personally I like both....I can get weight loss with a Zone approach...and if that's the person's goals then I am helping them and making them healthier in the process. Now I also understand that I need to educate them on limiting dairy, grains, etc...and getting more carbs from the fruits and vegetables.

I guess we must analize who we are training and what works best. For example I was doing a 6 week nutrition only seminar for people with autoimmune conditions....of the group, 2 ladies only came to the first session and never came back. When I finally got in touch and asked why, their response was that I basically scared them off talking about not eating grains, dairy,etc....and they were not ready for that. Now you can take 2 approaches...as well they are not ready, but did I do a disservice in not helping them in some fashion....and also could I have had them on a zone approach without complete elimination and got good weight loss, a more focused approach on their health and create more awareness that maybe in 3-4 months I could get them to drop the grains and dairy? I guess it comes from my complex to try and save everyone....but like I said, I know if they do the zone they will get fat loss and that is step 1...step 2 is a doable lifestyle for health and wellness....I don't expect them to stay on the zone...just learn from it and then be able to make smart choices down the road.

So while I do agree with some people need the "do this or I will not train you" approach...others may not respond. In the long run could I get everyone where I need them to be? Maybe...some's journey may take longer than others...but life is about the journey...even if it takes me a year to get someone really where I want them, I believe I have done something better off for their life. So many approaches....so I guess I have to monitor and keep track of everyone to see what works and doesn't and modify my approach as needed to get them on the road to better health. Even with the compliance approach I still believe in education.

I give my clients a food journal...and tell them I will not even discuss their nutrition unless they fill it out and hand it to me....otherwise I get the "well I am eating right...you know...good stuff"....Ummmm, No I have no idea what you are eating...so write it down....just give me the book and in 2 minutes I know where the problem is. That I am strict on.

PS. Someone needs to send Oprah a copy of the Paleo diet

Yael Grauer
01-28-2007, 01:21 PM
We have wrangled with this a bunch. I think the meat and veggies thing is sooo damn easy and effective. It just turns things around immediately...no arguing over toast, juice, beans etc. Even an athlete who is cranking along with their training can benefit from depleting their liver and muscular glycogen for perhaps the first time in their lives. Make them more efficient at burning fat and then introduce carbs as necessary to support activity.

This was an ongoing source of frustration for me when I was part of crossfit as the party line was "All you need is Zone"...except for all the celiacs and the fact that refined carbs in ANY amount derails many, many people. An of course it would be IMPOSSIBLE to eat 40/30/30 with "meat and veggies, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and not sugar..." bullocks.

Everyone from Sears to Poliquin comment that some folks are carb tolerant and some are not. I think the folks who do well on the Zone are relatively carb tolerant. I remember the first crossfit certification Nicole Carrol went to...she was still vegetarian and eating a relatively low protein diet but had capped delts and her abs were up. She is leaner and more muscular now with the Zone and seems to do great on the Zone but when I eat Zone parameter carbs I start getting carb related hunger pangs...unless everything is veggies but then I need 4hrs per day just to chew my food. I'm fairly disciplined but that is a deal breaker for me. As is the issue of how do I eat soups, stews and cook for 2, 3, or 5 people. I think the Zone is a nice tool in many ways and can be PERFECT for your OCD clients who thrive on knowing exactly what to eat. Other people if you can get them to buy some organic salad greens, steam some asparagus and buy a rotisserie chicken on the way home from work...getting ready to feed the kids and help with homework...that is all they can manage and likely all they NEED.

Steve-
You bring up some interesting points about the psychology, about how people need to frame things to keep priorities straight. I suspect there are 4-8 archetypes along the lines of the Meyers-Briggs personality type (http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp)

Just a guess, nothing solid. We are working on a screening method to determine if someone would do well with a stringent "eat this, weigh and measure everything" method versus a "meat, veggies, good fats" approach.

Over time I've realized that I need to be aggressive from day one about nutrition. Much like what Mike mentioned...folks need to earn cheat meals. From day one I need to tell them if they do not comply with the nutrition and lifestyle I wont work with them. Oddly enough it improves compliance AND retention. I think folks actually affect some real change as well. In the past I was very hands off...loads of educational material but I "let them find their own way". that is bullshit...and was a disservice. This may sound nuts but "we" are the only people who are going to give our clients the real deal. They will not get information that promotes health from their doctor, priest, dietitian, politician or TV news anchor-person. Oprah is trying to kill them, they just don't' know it, and neither does Oprah.

For a dedicated person, with a bit of time and a desire to bring their game up the weighing and measuring of the Zone is a nice place to get them going. For a stressed out, single mom who works 45-50 hrs per week, who is trying to get her kid to swimming and piano practice weighing and measuring ala the Zone is a phocking pharse. Getting the same individual to eat some scrambled eggs and a hand full of nuts for breakfast, a can of salmon over salad greens for lunch and a rotisserie chicken and steamed asparagus for dinner is doable.

Sorry if this was a little random...I can REALLY jabber on this topic.

Here, here!! Switching off of the zone and off of refined carbs has really helped me, and upping the fat (even though my BF isn't where I want it to be yet but I'm getting there!!) took care of my carb cravings.

I guess that's why I love the metabolic typing diet. Not that it's necessary but I think it's helpful for people who are really really out of touch with what it is that makes them feel healthy.

Allison Barns
01-28-2007, 02:38 PM
....when I eat Zone parameter carbs I start getting carb related hunger pangs...unless everything is veggies but then I need 4hrs per day just to chew my food. ....

Thanks for mentioning that Robb. I've found the same thing with me and have been wondering what my problem is.... nice to know it ain't just my problem! :D

Robb Wolf
01-29-2007, 09:45 AM
Thanks for mentioning that Robb. I've found the same thing with me and have been wondering what my problem is.... nice to know it ain't just my problem! :D

Yea...that was a tough thing for me standing in front of a room full of people at a CrossFit certification and needing to toe the party line. It was not kosher to say" The Zone will work like magic for some of you ...not so much for others. And some of you will want to kill ME trying to comply with this."

The Zone can be a good starting place. Weighing and measuring are crucial so you know how much is going down the hatch and how folks are responding to that...but if you are following this highly precise method of eating and you have LESS blood sugar control than a simple meat-n-veggies approach...something is wrong there.

Even all this Paleo stuff I just recommend that people try cutting grains, legumes and dairy out for a time. Reintroduce and see how you feel/perform. just about EVERYBODY feels better without wheat. Some notice no change with or without dairy...for others it's a big deal. Just try it and see.

I REALLY like using the base Zone blocks and swap out carb blocks for fat blocks (3 fat for 1 carb). This still offers accuracy/precision but I think better glycemic control.

R. Alan Hester
01-29-2007, 11:00 AM
I REALLY like using the base Zone blocks and swap out carb blocks for fat blocks (3 fat for 1 carb). This still offers accuracy/precision but I think better glycemic control.

I am the same way. I use zone block requirements with Paleo foods and replace the carbs with fats (1x3). I eschew wheat products and the only dairy I consume is goat cheese, because I cannot break myself of pinenut salads with goat cheese and olive oil dressing. At first, I did not use the zone requirements as a parameter. That changed as I began to notice my happy-fun belt growing. After close inspection of my intake, I calculated my fat intake to be at about 180 blocks, not my target of 72—too much EVOO (intellectual property of Rachel Ray) on salads. In short, one must measure at first to allow one's eyes time to calibrate.

Jeremy Jones
01-29-2007, 04:41 PM
Lots of good info here. I especially like the "Who you have to BE" stuff.

Maybe there should be different diet classifications all based upon the hormonal balance / paleo stuff that we all have learned to adopt in some shape or form. Nothing too rigid, but something that could be explained in a couple of pages for the un-initiated only looking for options and not the exact "why this works".

Eva Claire Synkowski
01-29-2007, 08:34 PM
Everyone from Sears to Poliquin comment that some folks are carb tolerant and some are not. I think the folks who do well on the Zone are relatively carb tolerant. I remember the first crossfit certification Nicole Carrol went to...she was still vegetarian and eating a relatively low protein diet but had capped delts and her abs were up. She is leaner and more muscular now with the Zone and seems to do great on the Zone but when I eat Zone parameter carbs I start getting carb related hunger pangs...

i was wondering about the xfit rockstars in terms of body comp. i know nicole has said zone helped performance, but i was unsure how much bf she had to lose at her baseline. i find zone as rx'd pretty tough to follow, as trying to fill the carb blocks usually end up on relying on some crappy sources.

def found its much easier to just go paleo. as soons as the grains start creeping in to fill zone blocks, its a field day. and really, 1/3 tsp olive oil - who counts that?

Allison Barns
01-29-2007, 09:54 PM
Yea...that was a tough thing for me standing in front of a room full of people at a CrossFit certification and needing to toe the party line. It was not kosher to say" The Zone will work like magic for some of you ...not so much for others. And some of you will want to kill ME trying to comply with this."

The Zone can be a good starting place. Weighing and measuring are crucial so you know how much is going down the hatch and how folks are responding to that...but if you are following this highly precise method of eating and you have LESS blood sugar control than a simple meat-n-veggies approach...something is wrong there.

Even all this Paleo stuff I just recommend that people try cutting grains, legumes and dairy out for a time. Reintroduce and see how you feel/perform. just about EVERYBODY feels better without wheat. Some notice no change with or without dairy...for others it's a big deal. Just try it and see.

I REALLY like using the base Zone blocks and swap out carb blocks for fat blocks (3 fat for 1 carb). This still offers accuracy/precision but I think better glycemic control.

Robb - You, rebel, you! Thinking people have individual dietary needs! :D No wonder you're in the wilds of Northern California with all those radical free-thinking hippie types! (I am a proud Northern CA born and bred (Davis, Sacramento, Arcata -Humboldt State!) gal).

Questions on swapping the carb blocks for fat blocks: Do you swap all the carbs, the majority of them, half of them, what? (Probably depends on the individual, huh?;) ). I'm at 14 protein blocks, so 3 fat for 1 carb would be 42 extra fat blocks? Is that right? Seems like a lot!

Thanks!

Rob Bullock
01-31-2007, 07:38 AM
Questions on swapping the carb blocks for fat blocks: Do you swap all the carbs, the majority of them, half of them, what?

Thanks!

I would love some clarification on this as well.

Thank you,
Rob

Robb Wolf
02-05-2007, 03:58 PM
Hey guys!

It really depends on what you are up to but just sub the 3 fat blocks for every carb block you delete.

Allison-
If you are at 14blocks and say wanted to tinker with a fairly low carb approach you could delete 7 blocks of carbs, replacing those calories with 21 blocks of fat. This way you still know pretty closely what your caloric intake is. Let's say you have a client that is VERY insulin resistant (fat). I'd recommend they do something like this as it will offer better appetite control AND it is still significantly caloric restricted. Make sure ALL the remaining carbs come from veggies and greens (low GI/GL).

Nothing magic. Adequate protein, insulin control, caloric restriction and good bookkeeping to help direct future decisions.

Allison Barns
02-05-2007, 10:14 PM
Thanks Robb. I'll... I mean my client will .... give it a whirl.

Robb Wolf
02-06-2007, 05:56 AM
Thanks Robb. I'll... I mean my client will .... give it a whirl.
LOL! Perfect!:D

Rob Bullock
02-08-2007, 01:15 PM
+1 on thanks for the clarification.

Rob

Allison Barns
02-18-2007, 10:55 AM
Hey guys!

It really depends on what you are up to but just sub the 3 fat blocks for every carb block you delete.

Allison-
If you are at 14blocks and say wanted to tinker with a fairly low carb approach you could delete 7 blocks of carbs, replacing those calories with 21 blocks of fat. This way you still know pretty closely what your caloric intake is. Let's say you have a client that is VERY insulin resistant (fat). I'd recommend they do something like this as it will offer better appetite control AND it is still significantly caloric restricted. Make sure ALL the remaining carbs come from veggies and greens (low GI/GL).

Nothing magic. Adequate protein, insulin control, caloric restriction and good bookkeeping to help direct future decisions.

I've been trying this and have noted an increase in muscle soreness with workouts (and increased need to pee). It was suggested to me to up the carbs on a day every 3-4 days to help with this. Any thoughts from you knowledgable folks?

Mike ODonnell
02-18-2007, 12:03 PM
Try adding a carb load after workouts....the old PWO meal/drink. May help you recover faster while still keeping a low carb the remainder of the day.

If you are doing low low carb (unknown your total calories) and especially a workout that requires glycogen....I would suggest either the PWO or carb load day....tinker with it and I am sure you will find something that works for you.

As for the pee thing...high protein compared to the other factors in the diet does act as a diuretic....usually recommended to drink more water.

Allison Barns
02-18-2007, 12:44 PM
Thanks Mike.

What's the recommended time-frame for the old PWO meal/drink?

I drink a ton of water (96 ounces minimum as measured by number of times I fill my water bottle) as a normal course of events and do seem to be drinking more lately.

Mike ODonnell
02-18-2007, 12:54 PM
What's the recommended time-frame for the old PWO meal/drink?

All depends on your goals and whether or not you want to spike that insulin PWO. If you are just doing a food based meal with protein and complex carbs, probably around 1-1.5 hr pwo is good. If you are wanting the "spike" then usually that is immediately pwo. (I know the dreaded pwo spike...but for recovery it works for me...)

What I do is make the pwo drink, sip 1/3 pre workout....1/3 during...and 1/3 after. Now this is for my schedule of heavier lifting....as I am not in a weight loss mode, although I am gaining muscle and not too much fat....as long as I watch what I eat for the rest of the day.

Again, all depends on your goals and training. But I would guess the soreness may be a sign of not recovering quick enough.

Allison Barns
02-18-2007, 06:44 PM
Thanks for the info Mike!