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Jeff_Dale
01-27-2007, 06:34 PM
A little background would be in order...
I used to be active with more endurance type stuff (running, mt. biking), before finding CrossFit, but I let myself go physically. I started CrossFit January '06 @ 225lbs. I did the Zone diet at 18 blocks and tinkered with it, becoming mostly Paleo/non-processed. I Kept diet strict until I trimmed down to 170 @ ~7%bf in december '06.

I'm currently 36yo,6'2",173lbs. I kept most of my lbm, losing less than 5 lbs during the 1 year lean out. My strength has improved while doing WOD for the last year and it has got me into athletic shape again. I think I could be developing my strength in better ways than with CrossFit alone. My current x1max= bench190,squat225,DL325,press125

I am in the third week of the Bill Starr squat program that I am incorporating with my WOD's. I'm doing the MWF squat and W deadlift too. I also increased my diet to include 3100 calories and I'm using Fitday to track my intake percentages(50%fat,25%pro25%carbs).

My goal is to add 10 lbs. of lbm by 7-7-07 and increase my strength figures in those basic moves. Does it sound like I am doing things correctly? Should I incorporate other strength moves too or would that likely be too much in addition to the WOD? I am still seeing gains from the CrossFit and I don't want to shift completely away from it and do powerlifting only. It seems squats would give me the most bang for the buck and not lead to over training if I only incorporate them 3xweek plus DL 1xweek. I also taking BCAA 1 hr PWO w/meal#1. and incorporating IF 9pm to 11am 2 days on/1 day off.

I would appreciate any advice, thanks ya'll!

Greg Everett
01-29-2007, 07:53 AM
If you don't want to ditch the CF even temporarily, this is a decent approach. I assume that DL falls on the light squat day? You may fiddle with that--I might be inclined to DL on the med squat day (before squatting) to allow more time for recovery, but whether or not that's necessary, you'll have to determine yourself.

When you see you're seeing gains from CF, are you meaning strength/size? If so, keep giong, but if strength and weight are you real goals right now, you'll likely make much more progress really minimizing the CF temporarily and then bringing it back once you've reached your goals. There's another thread on here regarding that. I'll post a link when I find it.

Allen Yeh
01-29-2007, 08:57 AM
Are you doing the WOD as prescribed as well as doing strength training or are you replacing one of your WOD's with strength training? If your doing option A, for me that was way too much and found after a few weeks of that I was very underrecovered. Option B is a viable alternative and there have been tons of variations on that theme.

R. Alan Hester
01-29-2007, 10:03 AM
Here is the link to the questions I asked regarding the same situation:
http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231

Jeff_Dale
01-29-2007, 10:42 AM
Greg- Maybe it would be best to avoid WOD and gather strength/size then go back at it. I would see more strength/size gains if I did. Is the Bill Starr program adequate or do you feel there are added benefits to the PM Mass gain regime?

Allen- I was replacing them for the most part unless they were quick easier ones. Since I've decided to concentrate on building strength I may just do the 5x5 program and see where that leads for a while.

R. Alan- Thanks to the link to your own program ideas and feedback you received. I look forward to reading about your gains.

Mike ODonnell
01-29-2007, 11:23 AM
Jeff,

Keep it simple. If you are not seeing increase in strength with your 5x5 and CF...then drop the metabolic workouts as they may be taking away from your 5x5. As the old sayings go...no one workout will optimize all goals...if you want strength...there's your focus....cut out all other things that take away from it. Then you can add in the more metabolic type stuff when you are ready.

Greg Everett
01-29-2007, 02:55 PM
Well as one of the two folks who wrote the PM mass gain program, I'm kind of partial to it. That said, Bill Starr is no slouch by any stretch of the imagination. So I would say this - if fundamental strength is your goal, stick with Starr's program; if mass and/or Olympic lifting are goals in addition to strength, check out the PM program.

Like Mike said, you can't do it all at the same time. Metabolic conditioning can be brought back up to speed very quickly in my experience, and it will exceed previous levels with a greater amount of strength. So unless you're making great gains still doing CF, I would drop it for now. Spend maybe 12-16 weeks or so concentrating on a strength/mass program and go from there.

Yael Grauer
01-29-2007, 03:14 PM
Spend maybe 12-16 weeks or so concentrating on a strength/mass program and go from there.

Why 12-16 weeks?

Jeff_Dale
01-29-2007, 04:56 PM
Thanks Greg and Mike for the additional feedback. I'll do strength training alone for 3-4 months and see what happens. Strength has always been my weakness and I never really knew how to approach the problem correctly. For all you hard gainers and others interested in the results, I'll post progress/results.

Mike ODonnell
01-29-2007, 05:20 PM
Strength has always been my weakness

If only more people attacked their weaknesses like you are....they would see such great results...yet most are stuck in the comfort zone of doing what they know best....you will see good gains, oh yeah....eat eat eat to recover. Muscles grow only when you are NOT working out...so remember sleep and food are a big part.

Greg Everett
01-29-2007, 07:13 PM
Why 12-16 weeks?

Because that's enough time to see genuine results. Not saying that's the longest one should ever stay on a strength cycle, but if you break your training into smaller cycles, it allows you to regularly evaluate progress, effectiveness, etc. and make necessary adjustments. Too often people go on a 'cycle', decide after 2 weeks that it's not working, completely change it, decide another 2 weeks later that the new one isn't working, and repeat that for years... with no real progress. Mike has a million times something to the effect that the best program is the one you commit to--pretty true.

Mike ODonnell
01-29-2007, 07:33 PM
So I guess my recent journal is not ideal.....

>>>
Dear Dairy....Day 1....cant wait for squats....struggles with 135...but progress is right around the corner.

Day 3...must have made some great gains, upto 185...found a secret, if I dont go down all the way I actually get stronger

Day 5...cant wait to see results, feeling pumped....225.....good thing I found the secret to squating

Day 8...Hit my personal best at 285...feel good with the small progressions and seeing the strength skyrocket

Day 10....was able to stand with 315 on the bar...didnt bother squatting as I know I could of done it...if I wanted to

Day 12....Hot girl in the gym so went for the max of my 2 week cycle....did 385....very explosive negative....really got down low.....good thing for the safety racks cause I was wiped after that 1 quality negative rep.

Day 14....cycle over...now off to watch TV and do a 12 month Bi's & Tri's cycle.

Steve Liberati
01-30-2007, 04:27 AM
Jeff,

Keep it simple. If you are not seeing increase in strength with your 5x5 and CF...then drop the metabolic workouts as they may be taking away from your 5x5. As the old sayings go...no one workout will optimize all goals...if you want strength...there's your focus....cut out all other things that take away from it. Then you can add in the more metabolic type stuff when you are ready.

BINGO...want to build strength? Simply lift HEAVY.

Frank Needham
01-30-2007, 05:34 AM
Yep, and lifting heavy is a secret that's been out for a long time now. Handed down by folks like Reg Park to Bill Starr to Mark Rippetoe. In SS Rippetoe gives his due to having met Bill Starr who then became instrumental in teaching him about iron.

Jeff_Dale
01-31-2007, 07:04 PM
Robb/Greg and Others,

I was reading the Mass Gain article on "Le Programme" and was confused when I saw the following:
"Clean Pull/RDL: 95% x 3, 100% x 3, 105% x 3"

What exactly is this and why is it above 100%? What lift are those %'s associated with? It sounds like it may be from the deadlift position and pulled up as high as possible without ducking underneath it?.

Also the following:
"L-pull-up: 60& x 6 x 3"
These are using 60% of my max weighted pull-up, right?

"Snatch balance"?
What are these exactly? Having trouble finding example it.
Sorry I'm new to oly lifts, only performed those in WOD.

Thanks All

Greg Everett
01-31-2007, 07:09 PM
Clean pull video (http://www.performancemenu.com/resources/exercises/index.php?show=exercise&sectionID=2&exerciseID=98)

It's above 100% because the % is based on your clean max (and you can pull more than you can clean invariably)

L-pull-up - yes, 60% of your max weighted pull-up

Snatch balance video (http://www.performancemenu.com/resources/exercises/index.php?show=exercise&sectionID=2&exerciseID=80)

Jeff_Dale
01-31-2007, 07:29 PM
Awesome Greg, thanks!
I'll be using your program and tracking progress with the journal.
I decided to use your program for the added work in Oly's,
which I am, hmmm...Lacking proficiency in.

Thanks,
Jeff

Greg Everett
01-31-2007, 07:33 PM
Cool!

If you really want to get your Oly game together, work snatches and jerks (cleans if you feel the need) with really light loading (e.g. pvc and/or a bar) even during the hypertrophy cycle just to get the practice in.

Let us know how it goes!

Jeff_Dale
02-01-2007, 12:37 PM
I created an excel template for the PM Mass Gain program.
If anyone's interested in a copy send me a pm and I'll email you the excel version.

Yael Grauer
02-01-2007, 12:45 PM
Sweet!

Jeff_Dale
02-01-2007, 05:59 PM
Quick question regarding the unloading cycles:
Does the load back down to the base of .60 of 1RM?
Or, is it still stepping up 2% from the following week?
Either way it would be a decrease in load, so i'd guess to add 2% but want to verify this.

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff_Dale
02-02-2007, 03:31 PM
Ah, found the answer. It goes back to the original base percentage.

Yael Grauer
02-03-2007, 01:35 PM
On the strength cycle, for the 3X3 3-position cleans, would that be 9 cleans per set, for a total of 27? Also I'm assuming you switch arms for the one-arm Sotts press? Hopefully I did it right.

Greg Everett
02-05-2007, 08:19 AM
Ah, found the answer. It goes back to the original base percentage.

% will always be of your current 1RMs.


On the strength cycle, for the 3X3 3-position cleans, would that be 9 cleans per set, for a total of 27? Also I'm assuming you switch arms for the one-arm Sotts press? Hopefully I did it right.

3-pos clean will be 3 cleans per set, not 9. For the sots, switch arms after completing the reps on the first arm.

Yael Grauer
02-05-2007, 02:32 PM
3-pos clean will be 3 cleans per set, not 9.

Crap! Glad I did an extra rest day then.