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Jay Cohen
07-14-2009, 05:16 AM
Two years ago, I had blood work done, Total Cholesterol was around 165, HDL was around 50, other important numbers were also low, AS I was not eating meat, just a little fish. Also ate no eggs, low fat, ran long distances, ate ton of carbs.

About a 18 months ago I started to eat meat and started reading the current literature about the benefits of good fats and good meats.

My diet has consisted of great local meats, lard, coconut oil, eggs and no fake or processed foods.

I went in for my two year checkup and the after my blood work came back, my DO practially had a heart attack with the change of my numbers.

Total Cholesterol 348 Range should be 150-200
Triglycerides 106 Range should be 70-200
HDL 89 Range should be 35-55
LDL 242 Range should be 83-129
VLDL 17 Range should be 14-40
Chol/HDL 3.9 Range should be 1.0 - 5.0

I said, hey my HDL almost doubled and my VLDL is really low, plus the ratio isn't too bad.

He looks at me like I'm nuts and says, you need medication now and I suggest you see a Dietitian.

No, and No. So he noted in my chart that I refused and wants to see me in 30 days.

Now I know I eat alot of meat and maybe no enough veggies/fish and fruit, hence my Fitday profile looks like Fat 55% Protein 30% Carbs 10-15%.

I have no problem cutting back a tad on the Fats, but just wanted everyone and anyone comments.

PS. My Creatinine Serum level was high at 1.86, should be in the 0.7-1.4, which I mentioned I was taking Creatine sup, he told me I need to stop and I agree as I was obvioulsy getting enough Creatine from my high meat intake. Told me I need to have that level checked in two weeks as I'm on the road for kidney failure. Well that spooked the shit out of me, Creatine stops today along with upping my water intake to get some flushing going on.

Thanks for any feedback.

Garrett Smith
07-14-2009, 06:39 AM
Jay,
Don't get all freaked out, you'll be okay. Your HDL is awesome.

Read this about the creatinine http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_supp lements/catching_up_on_creatine

Give me a call at the office, 520-577-6888, it's been too long since we've talked anyway.

Jay Cohen
07-14-2009, 06:50 AM
Jay,
Don't get all freaked out, you'll be okay. Your HDL is awesome.

Read this about the creatinine http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_supp lements/catching_up_on_creatine

Give me a call at the office, 520-577-6888, it's been too long since we've talked anyway.

Garrett;
Your the best, I'll call you around noon EST.
Thanks.

Craig Brown
07-14-2009, 08:16 AM
I'm interested in this as well, Jay & Garrett...please let me know what you decide it all means!

Craig

Steven Low
07-14-2009, 07:16 PM
Looks fine to me honestly. Although I'm not a doc.

Really high HDL is good. LDL doesn't matter as much because I believe it's a summation of LDL and HDL or something along those lines. It's VLDL that's the risk for atherosclerosis and such.

Cholesterol doesn't really mean too much either AFAIK especially since HDL is high and VLDL is low.

Low triglycerides is definitely good as that generally shows insulin resistance.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. :p

Brandon Oto
07-14-2009, 07:37 PM
IMNSeducatedO that's on the high side. Um... as far as camps go you'd probably have to be in the "cholesterol doesn't matter at all" camp to think otherwise.

Frank Needham
07-14-2009, 08:00 PM
A short primer on lipids from Quest Diagnostics:

Test Overview

Cholesterol and triglyceride tests are blood tests that measure the total amount of fatty substances (cholesterol and triglycerides) in the blood.

Cholesterol travels through the blood attached to a protein. This cholesterol-protein package is called a lipoprotein. Lipoprotein analysis (lipoprotein profile or lipid profile) measures blood levels of total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, and triglycerides.

* Cholesterol. The body uses cholesterol to help build cells and produce hormones. Too much cholesterol in the blood can build up along the inside of the artery walls, forming what is known as plaque. Large amounts of plaque increase your chances of having a heart attack or stroke.
* HDL (high-density lipoprotein) cholesterol helps remove fat from the body by binding with it in the bloodstream and carrying it back to the liver for disposal. It is sometimes called "good" cholesterol. A high level of HDL cholesterol may lower your chances of developing heart disease or stroke.
* LDL (low-density lipoprotein) cholesterol carries mostly fat and only a small amount of protein from the liver to other parts of the body. It is sometimes called "bad cholesterol." A high LDL cholesterol level may increase your chances of developing heart disease.
* VLDL: (very low-density lipoprotein) cholesterol contains very little protein. The main purpose of VLDL is to distribute the triglyceride produced by your liver. A high VLDL cholesterol level can cause the buildup of cholesterol in your arteries and increases your risk of heart disease and stroke.
* Triglycerides are a type of fat the body uses to store energy. Only small amounts are found in the blood. Having a high triglyceride level along with a high LDL cholesterol may increase your chances of having heart disease more than having only a high LDL cholesterol level.

Some medical experts recommend routine cholesterol and triglyceride testing to screen for problems that affect the way cholesterol is produced, used, carried in the blood, or disposed of by the body. Others may choose to routinely measure only total cholesterol and HDL levels.

Since I just had my lipids done also I'll post them later for comparison. I think Jay and I are somewhere close in age so it may be relevant.

Brandon Oto
07-15-2009, 12:28 AM
I'm younger (22), but here's mine as of a few months ago --

Total cholesterol: 188
LDL: 108
HDL: 71
Triglycerides: 47
VLDL: 9

I tend to eat very vaguely clean with high fat and lowish carbs, but also regularly eat entire pies and the like. Little metcon and bodyfat high teens.

Jay Cohen
07-15-2009, 05:06 AM
Thanks everyone, keep the comments coming.
Jay

Darryl Shaw
07-15-2009, 05:22 AM
The Effect of a Plant-Based Diet on Plasma Lipids in Hypercholesterolemic Adults.

A Randomized Trial.

Christopher D. Gardner, PhD; Ann Coulston, MS, RD; Lorraine Chatterjee, MS; Alison Rigby, PhD, MPH, RD; Gene Spiller, PhD; and John W. Farquhar, MD

3 May 2005 | Volume 142 Issue 9 | Pages 725-733


Background: A variety of food combinations can be used to meet national U.S. guidelines for obtaining 30% of energy or less from total fat and 10% of energy or less from saturated fat.

Objective: To contrast plasma lipid responses to 2 low-fat diet patterns.

Design: Randomized clinical trial.

Setting: 4-week outpatient feeding study with weight held constant.

Participants: 120 adults 30 to 65 years of age with prestudy low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol concentrations of 3.3 to 4.8 mmol/L (130 to 190 mg/dL), body mass index less than 31 kg/m2, estimated dietary saturated fat at least 10% of calories, and otherwise general good health.

Measurements: Plasma lipid levels.

Intervention: Two diets, the Low-Fat diet and the Low-Fat Plus diet, designed to be identical in total fat, saturated fat, protein, carbohydrate, and cholesterol content, consistent with former American Heart Association Step I guidelines. The Low-Fat diet was relatively typical of a low-fat U.S. diet. The Low-Fat Plus diet incorporated considerably more vegetables, legumes, and whole grains, consistent with the 2000 American Heart Association revised guidelines.

Results: Four-week changes in the Low-Fat and Low-Fat Plus groups were –0.24 mmol/L (–9.2 mg/dL) versus –0.46 mmol/L (–17.6 mg/dL) for total cholesterol (P = 0.01) and –0.18 mmol/L (–7.0 mg/dL) versus –0.36 mmol/L (–13.8 mg/dL) for LDL cholesterol (P = 0.02); between-group differences were –0.22 mmol/L (–9 mg/dL) (95% CI, –0.05 to –0.39 mmol/L [–2 to –15 mg/dL]) and –0.18 mmol/L (–7 mg/dL) (CI, –0.04 to –0.32 mmol/L [–2 to –12 mg/dL]) for total and LDL cholesterol, respectively. The 2 diet groups did not differ significantly in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride levels.

Limitations: 4-week duration.

Conclusions: Previous national dietary guidelines primarily emphasized avoiding saturated fat and cholesterol; as a result, the guidelines probably underestimated the potential LDL cholesterol-lowering effect of diet. In this study, emphasis on including nutrient-dense plant-based foods, consistent with recently revised national guidelines, increased the total and LDL cholesterol-lowering effect of a low-fat diet.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/142/9/725

Frank Needham
07-15-2009, 05:30 AM
Brandon your Cholest/HDL ratio is 2.65, lower than Jay's or mine. Jay's is almost 4x and mine is 3.11 and here's a really cool explanation of the ratios and risk factor's from exrx.net : http://www.exrx.net/Testing/LDL&HDL.html

My most recent numbers:
Patient Fasting
Total Cholesterol 205 Range should be 125-200
Triglycerides 87 Range should be 0-150
HDL 66 Range should be 40-199
LDL (calculated) 122 Range should be 70-130
VLDL: not tested
Chol/HDL 3.11 Range should be 0 - 5.0

According to my Doc and the AMA interpretation from exrx.net my risk factors are quite low, Brandon's are quite low and Jay's are high except for his HDL and TC/HDL ratio which are both quite good. And, as my Doc told me, these tests are a guideline, not gospel, and are supposed to be interpreted in terms of individual history. I've read that, as an adult, you are supposed to get these factors tested every 5 years, every 2 years, etc. If you can, I'd get them done as frequently as you feel the need.

Xuan Mai Ho
07-15-2009, 06:16 AM
Since we're all sharing, here are my numbers from earlier this year:
Female, age 32, weight 138 lb, height 5'2"

Cholesterol / Total : 254
Triglycerides : 51
HDL Cholesterol : 105
VLDL Cholesterol : 10
LDL Cholesterol : 139
LDL / HDL Ratio : 1.3
Glucose : 99

The last time I did blood work (maybe 6 years prior to this test), my weight was 150-155 lbs, I ate tons of carbs, very little meat and did no exercise. My triglycerides were maybe 2 points lower, HDL was in the 50's, LDL's were much lower than they are now.

After I received my results, I was sent to a nutritionist who made the following suggestions:

1) Lose weight
2) Exercise More
3) Eat more whole grains and low/non fat cheese. Also, cut out the red beef.

I have to admit - I did freak out for a couple of hours after I received the numbers and after my appointment with the nutritionist. But after some time cooling off, I came to this:

1) Trying to lose weight will just make me bonkers. My body likes to be around 138 lbs and when I try to go lower, I need to restrict calories to a point in which I end up obsessing about food.

2) Since I already lift around 3 times a week and do martial arts twice a week, how much more exercise can I add in a week while still having balance in the other areas of my life? At the time of my readings, I was also walking a mile a day as well because we lived a 1/2 mile away from the subway.

3) Eating a grain-centric, low-fat diet makes my blood sugar levels go all over the place. The ups and downs, severe hunger shakes, and achey joints from grains/sugar are a thing of the past with my now predominantly lower-carb, meat, vegetable, fruit centric diet.

So, for me, as long as my energy levels are good and I can participate in the physical activities that I like, I'll live with the higher cholesterol readings.

Scott Hanson
07-15-2009, 06:52 AM
Jay,

Not sure if you follow William Davis' blog. He's a cardiologist and posts lots of good stuff on reducing risk of heart disease through diet (eliminate wheat, starch, sugar) and supplementation (fish oil, Vit D, niacin, etc.). Here are some of his entries on LDL and how inaccurate the calculated values are:

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/LDL%20cholesterol

Arien Malec
07-15-2009, 07:52 AM
The inaccuracies that Dr. Davis and others discuss in the LDL calculation affect those with very high or very low TG. That applies to Xuan (her LDL is probably lower than calculated given her very low TG) and with her awesome freakazoid HDL she probably should have no worries.

Jay's numbers are a different story: the HDL is nicely high but not crazy high, the TG is low average and and not likely to throw off the calculation, and the LDL is off the charts. It might be nice in his case to get a sense of the ApoB/ApoA ratio and the true LDL particle count.

Plugging Jay's numbers into the alternative "Iranian" model for LDL calculation doesn't change the numbers much. Plugging Xuan's numbers into that model drops her LDL from 139 to 107 (that is, from elevated to normal). I'd bet in her case that reflects something much closer to the truth if she had a true LDL particle count done, and I'd bet that her ApoB/ApoA ratio would be very favorable.

Not a doctor, not giving medical advice, check everything you read here with a real medical professional, etc etc.

Jay Cohen
07-15-2009, 08:11 AM
Again, thanks for the replies, I will check out the links provided.

I'm back in the lab in two weeks for a Creatinine Serum test, 2 weeks after that for another Cholesterol check.

Derek Simonds
07-15-2009, 02:24 PM
I just went through the exercise Arien did with my wife. Her profile was very similar to Xuan's. I don't remember the exact numbers I think her LDL's were a little lower and TG's a little higher. She was pretty freaked out and the doctors office gave her the standard AMA heart diet grains, blah, blah, freaking blah. We had a couple of fairly exciting conversations with one ending in so you know more than the AMA?

Hmm probably time to reevaluate how I was communicating :D Thankfully after another thoughtful discussion on the Iranian method and telling her if she was really that concerned that I would pay for the LDL particulate test we were able to get through some things.

Jay I am also interested to here what happens with you. Please keep sharing.

Mike ODonnell
07-15-2009, 05:02 PM
The biggest thing to fear with cholesterol is the oxidation of LDL particles (that's where all the issues stem from)....so if inflammation factors are low, LDL particles are big and fluffy (and less likely to get stuck in artery walls), there is enough HDL to take care of LDL......in a sense the total number doesn't matter.

May want to throw in some more fruits/veggies with all the meat to help control any oxidation factors (which could in turn cause the body to produce more cholesterol)....as antioxidants are our friends.

Jay Cohen
07-16-2009, 07:02 AM
The biggest thing to fear with cholesterol is the oxidation of LDL particles (that's where all the issues stem from)....so if inflammation factors are low, LDL particles are big and fluffy (and less likely to get stuck in artery walls), there is enough HDL to take care of LDL......in a sense the total number doesn't matter.

May want to throw in some more fruits/veggies with all the meat to help control any oxidation factors (which could in turn cause the body to produce more cholesterol)....as antioxidants are our friends.


Mike, yep, need to add some more fruit and veggies, will probable add in some more chicken and fish and not eat pork/beef every day. I was hitting the meat pretty hard. Thanks for the feedback

Grissim Connery
07-16-2009, 08:35 AM
do you have values for homocysteine, c-reactive protein, IL-6, and TNF-alpha?

Jay Cohen
07-16-2009, 09:17 AM
do you have values for homocysteine, c-reactive protein, IL-6, and TNF-alpha?

I need to review test results, which are at home. Look later.

Garrett Smith
07-16-2009, 09:20 AM
do you have values for homocysteine, c-reactive protein, IL-6, and TNF-alpha?
I highly doubt those were done on a check-up bloodwork.

Mike ODonnell
07-16-2009, 10:45 AM
Mike, yep, need to add some more fruit and veggies, will probable add in some more chicken and fish and not eat pork/beef every day. I was hitting the meat pretty hard. Thanks for the feedback

I remember reading long ago about a study that said adding Vit C (500mg I think) before a fast food meal reduce oxidative damage from the meal by like....well alot....and for the life of me can't find that study anymore....

I'm sure you also know that "grass fed" should be the choice.....as that will reduce the overall sat fat/MUFA ratio (since wild game have lower sat and higher mufa) and reduce excess proinflammatory omega 6 grains in the fat of grain fed meat. Worst case...trim the visible fat on the grain fed meats.

Steven Low
07-16-2009, 11:03 AM
He pretty much lives in farm country so he has access to grass fed everything. At least that was the impression I got from meatfest. :p

Garrett Smith
07-16-2009, 11:26 AM
Get your Vitamin D tested the next time with your bloodwork. Low vitamin D raises cholesterol, as the body tries to make more "raw material" to be turned into Vit. D with sun exposure.

Darryl Shaw
07-29-2009, 06:50 AM
Another study on fruit and vegetables consumption and cholesterol.

Fruit and vegetable consumption and LDL cholesterol: the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute Family Heart Study.

ABSTRACT

Background: An elevated LDL-cholesterol concentration is associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. The association between fruit and vegetable consumption and LDL has been inconsistent.

Objective: The objective was to determine whether a high intake of fruit and vegetables is inversely associated with LDL concentrations.

Design: We used data collected from 4466 subjects in the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute Family Heart Study to study the association between fruit and vegetable consumption and serum LDL. We used a food-frequency questionnaire to assess fruit and vegetable intakes and regression models to estimate adjusted mean LDL according to fruit and vegetable consumption.

Results: The mean (±SD) age of the men (n = 2047) was 51.5 ± 14.0 y and that of the women (n = 2419) was 52.2 ± 13.7 y. The average daily serving of fruit and vegetables was 3.2 ± 1.7 for men and was 3.5 ± 1.8 for women. Fruit and vegetable consumption was inversely related to LDL: in the categories 0–1.9, 2.0–2.9, 3.0–3.9, and 4 servings/d, multivariate-adjusted mean (95% CI) LDL concentrations were 3.36 (3.28, 3.44), 3.35 (3.27, 3.43), 3.26 (3.17, 3.35), and 3.17 (3.09, 3.25) mmol/L, respectively, for men (P for trend < 0.0001) and 3.35 (3.26, 3.44), 3.22 (3.14, 3.30), 3.21 (3.13, 3.29), and 3.11 (3.04, 3.18), respectively, for women (P for trend < 0.0001). This association was observed across categories of age, education, smoking status, physical activity, and tertiles of Keys score. Exclusion of subjects with prevalent diabetes mellitus or coronary artery disease did not alter these results significantly.

Conclusion: Consumption of fruit and vegetables is inversely related to LDL in men and women.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/2/213

Frank Needham
04-06-2012, 09:29 AM
Ok, I know, the last post on this thread was '09...

I've been looking more into blood issues lately and have just watched a very interesting vid on endo at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
Dr. Lutsig does a great job of giving a primer on a pretty complicated subject.

In the vid he goes into a discussion on the real importance of Triglyceride/HDL ratios vs. Chol/HDL ratios. If what he says is so, and I believe it is, then re-evaluation of your blood test is in order.

My most recent numbers:

Name Result Ref Range
CHOLESTEROL CHOL 203 mg/dl 125-200

TRIGLYCERIDES TRIG 80 mg/dl 0-150

HDL* HDL 61 mg/dl 40-199

CHOLEST/HDL RATIO CHOL/H 3.33 0.0-5.00

VLDL* VLDL 16 mg/dl 0-30

LDL NLDL 126 mg/dl 0-130

Looking at my chol/hdl ration as the primary barometer of lipid ratio health one would conclude I should be planning for my funeral arrangements. But, according to Dr. Lutsig, and using the TG/HDL ratio as the primary barometer, my risk for heart/blood disorders is extremely low, 80/61 = 1.31 (ref ranges for this ratio are 2 and 4, < 2 being great, > 4 being bad).

For comparison purposes, my most prior numbers:

Name Result Ref Range
CHOLESTEROL CHOL 216 mg/dl 125-200

TRIGLYCERIDES TRIG 56 mg/dl 0-150

HDL* HDL 66 mg/dl 40-199

CHOLEST/HDL RATIO CHOL/H 3.27 0.0-5.00

VLDL* VLDL (not given)

LDL NLDL 139 mg/dl 0-130

TG/HDL ratio 56/66 = 0.848 , < 1 !

Steven Low
04-10-2012, 07:18 AM
From what I understand

trig/HDL and LDL/HDL are better predictors of cvd than CHOL/HDL

And thus your numbers would look very good

There's no correlation between CHOL and CVD