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Anton Emery
08-24-2009, 09:14 PM
Checked out a judo class tonight at a local community center. Man it was fun, i am going to try to go once or twice a week to complement my BJJ. That way i can get some decent takedown skills as well. It was fun too because the judo guys seem equally interested in my ground work, so we rolled alot after class.



Anton

Greg Davis
08-25-2009, 05:16 AM
i think judo is great too but i just cant handle the strict adherence to the traditional names and methods that the instructor i tried out uses... he teaches at a predominantly bjj gym so i just kept thinking like come on dude u cant teach it like youre teaching to kids who are taking on judo as their sole martial art

Grissim Connery
08-25-2009, 01:20 PM
recently i've been focusing more on judo. the best thing about using judo on bjj guys is that for the most part, none of us are super knowledgeable on counter throws. thus guys will pretty much just try to block your throws instead of countering them. as a result, you really have no inhibitions to run in and try to trow dudes. worst case scenario, he blocks you and nothing happens.

then again, a bad seio nage will get you choked. i mostly lead everything into an uchi mata, which ends pretty safely most the time.

does anybody have good tips on tai otoshi? i'm having trouble picking apart the throw.

Gant Grimes
08-25-2009, 01:34 PM
recently i've been focusing more on judo. the best thing about using judo on bjj guys is that for the most part, none of us are super knowledgeable on counter throws. thus guys will pretty much just try to block your throws instead of countering them. as a result, you really have no inhibitions to run in and try to trow dudes. worst case scenario, he blocks you and nothing happens.

then again, a bad seio nage will get you choked. i mostly lead everything into an uchi mata, which ends pretty safely most the time.

does anybody have good tips on tai otoshi? i'm having trouble picking apart the throw.

Good point re: counter throws. You can try more of the high amplitude throws you see in judo comps with less risk of being countered. Instead of just flinging them down (since you don't get extra points), you can adjust your grip to land in a better position.

A bad seo will get you choked, so don't be sloppy with it. Move your left arm from under your opponent's elbow to the lower part of his bicep (just above the crease of the elbow). Now when you turn in, he'll be unable to choke you.

You can make an easy adjustment to tai otoshi. First, grip high collar or even over the shoulder and around the back. Second, make it a terminal throw (take uke down and land on top of him). Instead of throwing a classic tai otoshi, bend your right knee and shoot your toe just past his toe. Twist your hips, and it will be a fast, violent throw. If you pull on his right arm, you'll land right on top of his ribs and be in a tight kesa gatame--holding his right arm. From there, you can either go for an arm bar or transition to side control.

I hope that makes sense. I might need to find a clip or film it for you.

Anton Emery
08-25-2009, 04:18 PM
Cool stuff, thanks Gant.

I have been working on Uchi Mata pretty regularly myself during free time in BJJ. There are probably easier throws to be learning, but it just feels right. Now i just have to get consistent enough so i can use it. My biggest problem seems to be being to get my plant food underneath their center of gravity enough, its usually to far out and then i dont have the leverage for the throw.



Anton

Derek Simonds
08-25-2009, 06:13 PM
Oh I wish I was training Judo north of Dallas next week. Nice description Gant.

Gant Grimes
08-25-2009, 10:11 PM
Cool stuff, thanks Gant.

I have been working on Uchi Mata pretty regularly myself during free time in BJJ. There are probably easier throws to be learning, but it just feels right. Now i just have to get consistent enough so i can use it. My biggest problem seems to be being to get my plant food underneath their center of gravity enough, its usually to far out and then i dont have the leverage for the throw.



Anton

Uchi mata is a complex throw (mine isn't very good). But it's a "magazine cover" throw. I once lost a match to a kid with a brilliant uchi mata. My balls were in my rib cage, and I was on my back before I could do anything about it.

Be sure you have the principles of koshi guruma, o goshi, tsuri goshi, and harai goshi down before trying uchi mata against a talented thrower.

Chuck Kechter
08-26-2009, 02:22 PM
Good stuff Gant!

And Judo (I've been studying it since 1982) rules! :)

Grissim Connery
08-27-2009, 01:08 PM
You can make an easy adjustment to tai otoshi. First, grip high collar or even over the shoulder and around the back. Second, make it a terminal throw (take uke down and land on top of him). Instead of throwing a classic tai otoshi, bend your right knee and shoot your toe just past his toe. Twist your hips, and it will be a fast, violent throw. If you pull on his right arm, you'll land right on top of his ribs and be in a tight kesa gatame--holding his right arm. From there, you can either go for an arm bar or transition to side control.

I hope that makes sense. I might need to find a clip or film it for you.

i've watched tons of clips on it. i guess my problem is more in the setup.

which foot do i want his weight to be on, his front leg or back leg?

the most recent setup i've been trying is threatening osoto-gari on his right leg, then when he steps back to avoid it, i rotate my hips through, ending with my right leg extended and left leg based under me. one reference mentioned that you want your body to be in a line with his big toes. by getting him to avoid osoto-gari, he pulls his feet into position so that the big toes align as such.

would kosoto-gari be a better option?

is the point on which the opponent rotatoes the hip on your body, the shoulder, or neither? i understand that this is primarily a hand technique, but i'm still confused by this mentality.

is the direction of the throw across my body or down to the ground? my initial assumptions were that the opponent was to be thrown downward since it's tai otoshi and not tai nage or something.

Gant Grimes
09-01-2009, 01:12 PM
i've watched tons of clips on it. i guess my problem is more in the setup.

which foot do i want his weight to be on, his front leg or back leg?

the most recent setup i've been trying is threatening osoto-gari on his right leg, then when he steps back to avoid it, i rotate my hips through, ending with my right leg extended and left leg based under me. one reference mentioned that you want your body to be in a line with his big toes. by getting him to avoid osoto-gari, he pulls his feet into position so that the big toes align as such.

would kosoto-gari be a better option?

is the point on which the opponent rotatoes the hip on your body, the shoulder, or neither? i understand that this is primarily a hand technique, but i'm still confused by this mentality.

is the direction of the throw across my body or down to the ground? my initial assumptions were that the opponent was to be thrown downward since it's tai otoshi and not tai nage or something.

Don't think of front/back leg. His weight should be broken to his right front (he'll typically have weight on his right leg, but don't get caught up in that).

I'll film this for you at my group tonight and work some ko soto in so you see how it can fit.

Gi or no gi?

Grissim Connery
09-02-2009, 03:49 PM
mainly gi. is tai otoshi possible no gi? it seems like one would have to opt for more of a harai goshi.

when you describe the weight as broken, do you mean that his base is now supported by his right leg, or that he has shifted his base to his left leg?

Mark Fenner
09-04-2009, 05:00 PM
does anybody have good tips on tai otoshi? i'm having trouble picking apart the throw.

If you haven't seen it, the judo forum has great discussions on most techniques. Just do a search for tai otoshi and you'll get some great info. A friend there, rberry13, has really developed his tai over the past few years ... partially from working with some folks who have developed a good tai, partially from reading great info, and partially from finding out what works for him.

http://judoforum.com

Best,
Mark

Anton Emery
09-05-2009, 02:22 AM
Great discussion everyone, i am really getting alot out of this. At the moment i am just doing judo once week, ill prob up it to twice a week, just gotta see how i can balance it with BJJ. Its a ton of fun, and really refreshing just to be doing something different and new. I think its going to be a little while before i can actually apply it though.


Anton

Grissim Connery
09-06-2009, 03:53 PM
last week a judo black belt showed me some tips with tai otoshi. he showed me how the lower body sets up a supporting structure, while the real throw comes from a trunk rotation. in exercise terms, it's more like an olbique russian twist than a wood chopping motion/ball slam motion. the rotation occurs in a very, very thoracic region after the lower body has been set up.

now i understand why harai goshi and tai otoshi are completely different. it's like day and night now.

Gant Grimes
09-11-2009, 12:15 AM
last week a judo black belt showed me some tips with tai otoshi. he showed me how the lower body sets up a supporting structure, while the real throw comes from a trunk rotation. in exercise terms, it's more like an olbique russian twist than a wood chopping motion/ball slam motion. the rotation occurs in a very, very thoracic region after the lower body has been set up.

now i understand why harai goshi and tai otoshi are completely different. it's like day and night now.

Grissim, sorry I didn't get this last week. I haven't posted or been able to do crap here.

I didn't film it last night at my JJ group, but I got a short clip before judo started tonight. I'm demonstrating a style of tai used by our club members. It is a terminal throw, meaning we go to the ground with (usually on top of) our opponent.

First, I break his balance forward and down by pulling the gi (or an arm drag or neck grab). Then I hammer my arm over, smashing it into his head to get a tight grip. I grab his lat. Literally. I try to squeeze the life out of them right before I land on their ribs. If you do it properly, you land in a solid kesa gatame. I know you're more interested in submissions, so I transitioned to a side control + kimura (or Americana--can't remember the difference).

The video is kinda crappy, and you may not be able to hear. Apply the principles above to this terminal throw, and you'll have fun with it.

If you get good kuzushi, you basically have to hold the opponent up until you're ready to throw him.

Tai otoshi traditionally breaks to the right front.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTW4l-plN4

Note: I am 217 and my uke is 300.
Note 2: Traditional tai otoshi is a hand technique. This grip variation changes that.

Grissim Connery
09-22-2009, 06:51 PM
i tried to reply a week ago, but for some reason it didn't go up. just noticed it

i've been playing with it a little now. i like the fact that you're taking advantage of guys who do a huge forward lean. unless they're looking to jump guard, i hate when dudes do that cause i feel that they're just stalling.

i never really thought tai otoshi could work no gi. i've been trying it now and i still can't really hit it. what's been working really well though is that i threaten it, and the guy then tips his weight backwards. i then hook my right leg around his knee, pressure my chest to push his face (kinda like a crossface), and come around for an osoto gari/osoto otoshi. i've watched a marc verillotte dvd where he goes from osoto gari to harai goshi. even though this makes a lot of sense, i never had much success with it. the tai otoshi to osoto gari is kinda the reverse, and it's working well.