PDA

View Full Version : Pulls with the most transference?


Garrett Smith
10-13-2009, 08:44 PM
If one had to choose between snatch pulls and clean pulls, which one is the most useful (has the most carryover/transference)?

I'm mainly referring to carryover/transference in OL itself.

My guess would be clean pulls, as they simply use more weight.

Thoughts?

Omar Omar
10-14-2009, 03:31 AM
I will give you only my opinion on this.

For Oly-lifting both of them are quiet diffrent. Its like me asking "should I deadlift, or backsquat in order to get better at both", niether does the deadlift do much to my squat or vise-versa...

Similarly, the snatch neads more speed, clean has more wieght therefors its more of strentgh.

The snatch is more about shoulder flexibility and stability, it uses the hips more. Aghh, the clean is more about some other stuff....

I dont really think one of them will get you better at both, not even a little bit. The lifts are just so diffrent.

According to coach Burgener the snatch requires more power out-put, the most expolsive power, and is a better representation of an athletes ability.

I personally also think that (if anything) the snatch will get you better at the clean, if I ever had to choose only one, Ill go for snatches =))))

(All this is m personal opinion, Im not certified or anything like that so its up to you)

Robbie Bremner
10-14-2009, 04:35 AM
If we are talking in transference to oly lifts then both are important. I don't waste my time doing deadlifts, I just do pulls. In terms, of replicating the bar path of a snatch or clean, it is challenging.

Snatch Pull - due to this being generally a lighter weight than clean pull, this has a tendency to be used more from experience. I personally struggle with retraction and posture with this lift as its normally at 100%+.
Clean Pull - Due to it being a considerable weight (100%+ of clean), this weight tests my first pull and postural control. Anything over 3 reps normally turns into a clean deadlift.

If we are talking transfer into athletic performance, It really depends on the athlete and their ability. Normally less experienced athletes would use the blocks, as the 1st Pull/start position adds problems later in the lift and they get the appropiate adaptations from the 2nd Pull/Drive phase.

In my current program, I am using more snatch pulls than clean pulls as I have more issues with my snatch than CJ. I guess what I'm trying to say that it all comes down to speification. The snatch is always taught first by most coaches, so that may be a hint to which has more transference to oly lifting in general.

Brian DeGennaro
10-14-2009, 05:58 AM
What are you trying to improve, Garret?

Garrett Smith
10-14-2009, 07:43 AM
I'd like to improve my OLs, but there isn't enough room in my program to be totally OL-specific.

I'd say I'm furthest away from my C&J goal, but I am most limited on that by my jerks at this time.

Anyway, I love pulls, but to avoid burning out, I wanted to know which one might give max benefit if I could only do one.

Martin Bonn
10-14-2009, 08:09 AM
Hey Garrett,

if there was only one then it would have to be snatch pulls: requires more torso stabilisation due to the back angle, and you can still work the power, which shoud carry over to the clean nicely.
having said that, the bar position at the end of the 1st pull is a little different, so drilling that just with the snatch pulls might not give you as much of an effect as the clean pulls.

if you only have room for one, do snatch pulls.
OR: do 2-3 lighter sets of snatch pulls and then 2-3 heavier sets of clean pulls, not ideal, but maybe a reasonlable alternative?

Omar Omar
10-14-2009, 11:33 AM
OR: do 2-3 lighter sets of snatch pulls and then 2-3 heavier sets of clean pulls, not ideal, but maybe a reasonlable alternative?


I like the alternative. kinda smart hehe..

Check your inbox...

Brian DeGennaro
10-14-2009, 04:18 PM
Personally, the way I would perform pulls would be quite different than anyone else. If I ever do pulls, I use no straps and I do singles (or clusters) and I let it go after the 2nd pull. Let me explain why I do this.

First off, the point of Weightlifting is to improve your snatch and CJ, and these are explosive movements and they are only done for max weight not repetitions. Doing singles on pulls allows you to focus on maintaining your explosiveness and positioning while reducing fatigue. Secondly, etting go of the bar helps to ensure you don't hang out at the top of the pull or have to worry about slowing the bar down back to the hang or floor.

I treat pulls like I would a heavy snatch or clean where my grip came off: a single repetiton with a heavy weight and build volume off of that. I know this is different from what others do with pulls but IMO every accessory movement should have as much transfer as possible to the lifts.

Omar Omar
10-14-2009, 07:22 PM
A question for all those who can help.

I dont meant to hijack this thread but the opportunity to ask presents it self after Brian's question...

Are CrossFit WODS Randy and Grace simply met-cons that are useless when it comes to devoloping power.

For those of you who dont know them

Grace
30 C@J of 135 pounds for time (takes elite athletes 2-4 minutes for 30 reps)

Randy
75 reps of 75 pounds snatch (takes 4 minutes too)

Are the simple endurance Wods that have no contribution whatsoever to power, or strentgh...

Michael McKenna
10-15-2009, 05:34 AM
In the Russian method, Snatch Pulls are "extra" lifts. So I'd drop them. But, really, one week do clean pulls and one week do Snatch pulls. Once/ month finish the snatch pull with your arms; never finish with your arms in the clean pull (this adviceafter working with Victor Gallego; finishging the snatch pull once in a while helps your finish in the snatch, but just once in a while is necessary).

Almost all my pulls are singles/ doubles; snatch pulls under 80% sometimes go 3-5, depending on the plan for the month. Occasionally, clean pulls from high blocks will go up to a set of 5.

Garrett Smith
10-15-2009, 06:18 AM
Michael,
I'm trying to keep some pulls in my plan as I was hoping the extra pulling from the floor would indirectly help my deadlift improve without training it (see Matt Foreman's article in the PMenu on this).

I train several different approaches at once (mixing PL, OL, gymnastics, and I'm even doing a Highland Games in 3 weeks for fun), so I need the most bang for my buck. After my meet this weekend, the PL is falling by the wayside for a long time so that I can emphasize OL more for a good 6-8 months.

Martin Bonn
10-15-2009, 07:15 AM
i d still go with snatch pulls i think.
snatch is more technique dependent, therefore you would need more drills in that movement than in the clean.
i lliked the 1 week clean pulls, 1 week snatch pulls idea as well

Martin Bonn
10-15-2009, 07:19 AM
A question for all those who can help.

I dont meant to hijack this thread but the opportunity to ask presents it self after Brian's question...

Are CrossFit WODS Randy and Grace simply met-cons that are useless when it comes to devoloping power.

For those of you who dont know them

Grace
30 C@J of 135 pounds for time (takes elite athletes 2-4 minutes for 30 reps)

Randy
75 reps of 75 pounds snatch (takes 4 minutes too)

Are the simple endurance Wods that have no contribution whatsoever to power, or strentgh...

i don t think that you ll develop much strength from that unless you are a beginner. the weight is too light and the reps are too high.

i d defo not do them if i was doing oly lifting as my main sport: the weight is too light to enforce a good bar path, and technique goes out the window. so if anything you ll get a negative carry-over.
i ve never seen anyone do either of these WODs with oly-acceptable form.
this is not to say they aren t good conditioning tools though.

Michael McKenna
10-15-2009, 08:48 AM
Michael,
I'm trying to keep some pulls in my plan as I was hoping the extra pulling from the floor would indirectly help my deadlift improve without training it (see Matt Foreman's article in the PMenu on this).

I train several different approaches at once (mixing PL, OL, gymnastics, and I'm even doing a Highland Games in 3 weeks for fun), so I need the most bang for my buck. After my meet this weekend, the PL is falling by the wayside for a long time so that I can emphasize OL more for a good 6-8 months.

I've read Matt's article, and it's good stuff. I think the best thing for throwing, though, is heavy cleans and good mornings. Steve Pulcinella does a nice job with a specialized "Highland Games" explosive good morning. The video is out there somwhere, I think on youtube. Steve can be reached at www.ironsport.com.

Deadlifts will improve with heavy pulls, but always make sure the pulls are fast, fast, fast. Always speeding up and accelerating throughout the movement, not a "deadlift with a shrug". I actually think that snatch pulls from the ground are good as they're lighter, and clean pulls from blocks are better. Your lower back, especially if you're training for PL or OLY Lifting, will get tons of work. Protect it.

I don't consider pulls technical, although they can be used to improve positions and for a beginner to learn the pattern of movement. if you've been training for a long time, and you need the pull for technical support, then skip the pull entirely and add more power snatches to yoru workout. You'll become much better technically. Rememebr, the only difference between a power snatch and squat snatch is where you catch the weight. even with lighter pulls, the technical difference between a pull and a snatch, especially, is vast.


Don't use pulls to get better at the lifts, use pulls to get stronger/ faster/ more explosive; those thigns will carryover to the lifts, thereby making you better. Anything else is a waste of time, in my opinion. But for throwers, I use pulls more often than for a straight up lifter.

I see pulls for strength and more "explosion", training with a weight that's heavier than your best snatch or clean. What should that weight be? Well, it depends on the pull. I like the 10% adage, but remember, it's not 10% of weight, it's 10% of technique and performance. I'd do clean pulls from high blocks up to 270 kg when I was cleaning 175-180, and the speed was close, within that 10%. But doing 270 from the ground was slow. Also, the extra low back fatigue hurt my cleans. So my pulls fall into this pattern:

One style of pulls from the floor, one from another position. Three to four weeks with each pulling style.

For example: Snatch pulls from the floor, 1x5 w/ 70%, 1x3 w 80%, 2x2 w 90%, 3x1 w 100%011% of my snatch. Sometimes the movement from the floor will have me pause below the knee, then at the knee, then above the knee, then finish.



That same cycle my clean pulls would be from the high blocks, usually then MUCH heavier than my clean (150% or so top end). Your second pull can never be too powerful.

I do more rdls and good mornings, too, this split.

Another split I use is Snatch grip deads, or snatch starts to the knee. These go up heavy- SN GR DL go to 160-180 kg when I sn 130+; these days usually 140-160 as I'm snatching around 120. I'll pair these with lighter clean pulls through the full range of motion with a pronounced POP at the end. I'll do more good mornings or heavier RDLs this cycle.

Sometimes, I do higher rep snatch starts- 2 sets of 8 or 10 with 100% or so of my snatch. But remember, I'm a super (105+), and I'm used to high volume routines and I can afford muscle mass gains.

I also like muscle snatches in place of snatch pulls sometimes.

This is all for lifting training.

Martin Bonn
10-15-2009, 09:48 AM
i like your reasoning Michael!
i am more at the beginner range so for me the pulls are technical and not just about getting stronger, but i can see that just doing heavy clean pulls can have its benefits if used at the right stage of the athlete's development.

Blair Lowe
10-16-2009, 01:04 AM
Dr. G, when I had limited time to Oly, I simply alternated either pulling position each workout.