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Jay Cohen
10-14-2009, 05:24 AM
Iím looking to race 5Kís in 2010 and would like to get into the low 18ís. A pretty knowledgeable local Cross Country Coach has laid out the following program for me, based about 25 miles per week of total mileage (which I know is not a lot, but thatís about all I want to run). My question is, what strength work would you supplement with. Iíve done SS and PP for two years, really like the program; also worked with RKC 2 coach and like the KBís.

Being 56, my recover period will be considerably longer, but I do like training strength and would like to keep a Squat/Press/Pull in the training program.

All comments appreciated.

Tues: 1 mile warmup....3 x 1 mile tempo run...60 second rest interval....1 mile cooldown....5 mile total

Wed: 6 mile aerobic run

Thurs: 1 mile warmup....8 x 400m......1 mile cooldown....4 mile total

Sat: 2 mile aerobic pace....8 x 60m sprint.....1 mile aerobic 3.25 total

Sun: 7 mile long run

This is a general guideline....would not expect you to do that now.....if you are doing 15 now....plan on 18 next week and work the numbers from there....use the general guideline that long run is 20 to 25% of total mileage....tempo 10%....speed intervals 8%....reps 5%....these numbers are not cast in stone, but are close to that

If you want an actual periodized training plan....I would need goal dates.....goal times....and then a one to two mile time trial time or a recent 5k performance to accurately determine training paces

Allen Yeh
10-14-2009, 05:45 AM
Jay,

Wow 18's! that's a great goal, what are you running now? The running plan looks pretty solid and with that laid out you'll be running 6 days a week so I would not opt with something like SS or PP while running 6 days a week, it's just too much IMO.

Have you looked into 5/3/1 at all? Great program, very flexibile and you do as much or as little as you are capable. Jim Wendler lays out a lot of different options in terms of how many days per week you can lift, what accessory lifts to do along with it....etc

I would start off with no more than 3 days of lifting when you first start off your running programming jsut to gauge your how your recovery goes and if you feel like you can take more than up it to 4X's a week When I was at Officer Basic stuff earlier this year we were running 3-4 days a week and I was doing pretty well with adding the 5/3/1 stuff 3-4 times a week in the afternoons. I definitely hit some PR's for all the lifts, bench, squat, DL and press while decreasing my 2 mile time to 14 minutes.

Matt Cricchio
10-14-2009, 06:15 AM
I’m looking to race 5K’s in 2010 and would like to get into the low 18’s. A pretty knowledgeable local Cross Country Coach has laid out the following program for me, based about 25 miles per week of total mileage (which I know is not a lot, but that’s about all I want to run). My question is, what strength work would you supplement with. I’ve done SS and PP for two years, really like the program; also worked with RKC 2 coach and like the KB’s.

Being 56, my recover period will be considerably longer, but I do like training strength and would like to keep a Squat/Press/Pull in the training program.

All comments appreciated.




It all depends in what you can run it in at this point but I don't think you have to run this much to reach your goal, keep lifting, and recover.

I did intervals of 400m and 800m (400mX4 or 6, 800mX2 or 4) once a week, time intervals (1 min hard running/1 min jog or walkingX20 min) twice a week, and tried to run my race every Saturday.

The only thing I would have changed is I would have continued to squat my ass off. Heavy squats always make me faster.

You can do these runs where most people would place thier " short, heavy metcons" in a strength program and still lift 3 days a week.

I took a 36 minute 4 miler down to 28-29 minutes in a couple of months doing something like this.

Steven Low
10-14-2009, 07:28 AM
If you've read Barry Ross' article on dragondoor (HOly grail of sprint training -- or whatever the name is), you'd mostly want to keep the deadlifts over squats. But the rest is fine.

Personally, I'd prefer a more interval biased program like Matt had.. then transition into longer runs once the gains from the intervals start to top off.

Gant Grimes
10-14-2009, 07:36 AM
Hope you are doing well.

The article that Steve pointed to is a good one. I do this type of deal (DL + box jumps, DL + sprints, DL + long jumps) frequently.

Good luck on the 18 min. That's a good goal. I can't speak to distances beyond 400m. Keep eating and chasing your greyhounds.

Jay Cohen
10-14-2009, 09:21 AM
Thanks Guys.
I'll look into the 5-3-1 program and will still work to get mileage up. Quality miles work.

Agree as to that past thread on DL's over Squats. I'll review Barry's site at some point.

Also understand I'll lose some weight/muscle, but no way around that.

Gant, nice to hear from ya, sorry I missed your last visit to the Burgh.

David Nittler
02-01-2010, 02:40 PM
I'm preparing for a sprint distance triathlon using some of the intervals and time trial stuff over at anaerobic endurance (i.e. crossfit endurance). My 5K time has dropped from +/- 27:00 down to 23:40.

My main goals are to not lose strength/too much weight in the process. To that end I have started drinking a quart of milk per day (ala Rip), and am using wenlder's 5/3/1 twice a week (i.e. press and deadlift one week, and bench and squat the next). I'm not making tremendous gains in the lifts, but my numbers are increasing bit by bit, and my running times are getting faster.

In place of the accessory lifts, I will generally push a prowler or do 500m-1k rowing sprint intervals following lower body lifts, and some type of strength conditioning work on upper days (5 to 15 minute conditioning circuit or barbell complex-like thing/metcon).

My week looks something like this:

Monday - Press/10:00 metcon - 3 hours+ later: short interval run (max effort for 7:00 on/3:00 off x 3)

Tuesday - Rest

Wednesday- Deadlift/prowler push sprint repeats (40m x 6 w/ 1:00 rest between efforts)

Thurday - 20:00 or less general conditioning/metcon workout - 3+ hours later: short interval run (20:10 x 8 tabata sprints)

Friday - Rest

Saturday - max effort time trial or a tempo run immediately followed by a very light and easy recovery strength workout to open up the hips (3 circuits of pull ups, pushups, GHD situp, kettlebell swings)

Sunday - Rest

I'm sure if I were to specialize, I would see faster progress, but I find enjoyment in participating at both ends of the spectrum. For instance, I want to improve my meager 1.9x bodyweight deadlift of 340lb., and a looking to better my 51:03 time in the 10K.

In my 30s, this is all I can recover from.

Jay Cohen
02-02-2010, 09:16 AM
David;

Nice looking program, thanks for sharing.

Garrett Smith
02-02-2010, 09:21 AM
CF Endurance, duh!

LOL

Pat McElhone
02-02-2010, 10:10 AM
An 18min 5k is very, very impressive. That is a solid goal. What is your goal for the strength training?

Have you looked at Pavel's PTP?

Donald Lee
02-02-2010, 12:08 PM
Jay,

You should check out Lyle's article series on endurance training. He doesn't go over in detail all the adaptations that occur with endurance training, but he does go over pretty much all the types of training for endurance. And, Barry Ross' stuff has nothing to do with endurance training. And, intervals have their place, but not in the beginning of an endurance program. HIIT, such as Tabatas, has no place in an endurance training program.

Jay Cohen
02-03-2010, 04:48 AM
Jay,

You should check out Lyle's article series on endurance training. He doesn't go over in detail all the adaptations that occur with endurance training, but he does go over pretty much all the types of training for endurance. And, Barry Ross' stuff has nothing to do with endurance training. And, intervals have their place, but not in the beginning of an endurance program. HIIT, such as Tabatas, has no place in an endurance training program.


Don, you're on the mark. I ran a benchmark 5k in Nov, came in around 22ish, my coach wanted me to dump the speed work and build a good base of anywhere from 25-35 per week of easy running, I'm been trying to build to that, plus keep two days of the 5/3/1 program, along with some rest.

I see speed work coming end of March.

Thanks for feedback.

Jay Cohen
02-03-2010, 04:53 AM
An 18min 5k is very, very impressive. That is a solid goal. What is your goal for the strength training?

Have you looked at Pavel's PTP?


Hey Pat, thanks for the kind words.

I'm currently following the 5/3/1 program, training Monday/Friday. My long term strength goal is very basic, 1 x bw Press, 1.5 x bw bench, 2 x BW squat and 2.5 x bw DL. My current weight is 168ish. While these numbers are no way shape or form impressive, in fact, rather "light", I try to maintain a balance with other activities, i.e. running, scuba diving, ballroom dancing, some bike riding, kayak work, little climbing, you get the picture......

So much to do, so little time.

Have a great day.

Garrett Smith
02-03-2010, 05:15 AM
Hey Pat, thanks for the kind words.

I'm currently following the 5/3/1 program, training Monday/Friday. My long term strength goal is very basic, 1 x bw Press, 1.5 x bw bench, 2 x BW squat and 2.5 x bw DL. My current weight is 168ish. While these numbers are no way shape or form impressive, in fact, rather "light", I try to maintain a balance with other activities, i.e. running, scuba diving, ballroom dancing, some bike riding, kayak work, little climbing, you get the picture......

So much to do, so little time.

Have a great day.
Good goals, IMO...very similar to my own. I've almost got the squat and bench done, but I'm not trying to do any longer running!

Steven Low
02-03-2010, 05:55 AM
Yeah, you can get some decent times with longer interval work.

But you definitely need the endurance work to do anything good with it.

Doesn't look like it corresponds much to your goals though.

Donald Lee
02-03-2010, 11:25 AM
Don, you're on the mark. I ran a benchmark 5k in Nov, came in around 22ish, my coach wanted me to dump the speed work and build a good base of anywhere from 25-35 per week of easy running, I'm been trying to build to that, plus keep two days of the 5/3/1 program, along with some rest.

I see speed work coming end of March.

Thanks for feedback.

Jay,

That's a pretty good time to be starting at. I think my best 3-mile time was 21:25 ish, but I was running with a bum knee. You could try doing some light high-rep jumping squats after your regular lifting to develop the elastic abilities of your legs. Verkhoshansky has it in the first 1/3 of his program for 5k-ish distances.