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Grissim Connery
10-27-2009, 08:53 PM
I thought about posting this up in the CF forum, but i didn't wanna deal with a possible war.

I watched the video a while ago on the CF main site talking about how they're gonna crack down on dip form. now they're gonna make sure that the hip line drops way below the hands, therefore moving the whole center of mass as opposed to just rotating it about the hands for a more pushup-like dip. i like this idea, but this opens up a glaring inconsistancy.

obviously the kipping pullup is one of the more controversial CF moves. I agree behind the physics concepts of the kipping pullup, in that from a work standpoint, it's still the same mass moving the whole distance from arms extended to chin/chest to the bar. therefore the kipping pullup generates more power.

by calling themselves out on the lack of ROM on dips, why not talk about their HSPUs as well? coach sommer spefically refers the press from a handstand to a headstand as a "headstand push up (HeSPU)." this seems absolutely necessary, because the strength requirements between this and an actual parallete HSPU are dramatically different.

now it would be hard as hell to pull off strict parallete HSPUs in a metcon, but these can easily be kipped as well. there's plenty of videos on the crossfit site of people kipping their headstand pushups. therefore shouldn't the norm either be requiring real HSPU's for the sake of moving the mass through the total range of motion, or just flat out calling them what they are, headstand pushups?

i understand the advantage of HeSPU in that only a wall is needed, but PVC paralletes are cheap, and with so much time spent on learning the OL, i think all serious CFers can develop a kipping parallete HSPU.

Chris Forbis
10-28-2009, 04:20 AM
I have personally noticed a HUGE difference between HSPU with the hands flat on a surface to HSPU from parallelettes. This is not even addressing the ROM issue.

When your hands are flat on the floor, it is easy to splay your elbows out to the side. From an elevated surface, I have done an (ugly) full ROM HSPU in this manner. When you move over to paralleletes, your forearms stay in a parallel line with the parallelettes, no elbow splaying. Which I find makes it ridiculously more difficult. It feels a lot more like a press when done in this manner.

My two cents.

Garrett Smith
10-28-2009, 07:08 AM
I thought about posting this up in the CF forum, but i didn't wanna deal with a possible war.
So you're familiar with character assassination when questioning sport exercise form, eh?

I watched the video a while ago on the CF main site talking about how they're gonna crack down on dip form. now they're gonna make sure that the hip line drops way below the hands, therefore moving the whole center of mass as opposed to just rotating it about the hands for a more pushup-like dip. i like this idea, but this opens up a glaring inconsistancy.
The point I took from that video was mainly one of the "true" and deeper dip will translate better to a muscle-up. The new "standard" (it seemed more of a training suggestion to me) would seem difficult to enforce, as it entails the hip moving downward to some very arbitrary point in space.

obviously the kipping pullup is one of the more controversial CF moves. I agree behind the physics concepts of the kipping pullup, in that from a work standpoint, it's still the same mass moving the whole distance from arms extended to chin/chest to the bar. therefore the kipping pullup generates more power.
Sure. Done.

by calling themselves out on the lack of ROM on dips, why not talk about their HSPUs as well? coach sommer spefically refers the press from a handstand to a headstand as a "headstand push up (HeSPU)." this seems absolutely necessary, because the strength requirements between this and an actual parallete HSPU are dramatically different.
A true HSPU on parallettes (even using the wall) implies that the person in question has *at least* a bodyweight standing press. If you look at the CF Games entrant stats for the men, very few actually had a BW standing press...and that's only for a single rep. This level of strength you are referring to is simply not there nor are many CFers trying to develop it through necessary specialization, IMO.

now it would be hard as hell to pull off strict parallete HSPUs in a metcon, but these can easily be kipped as well. there's plenty of videos on the crossfit site of people kipping their headstand pushups. therefore shouldn't the norm either be requiring real HSPU's for the sake of moving the mass through the total range of motion, or just flat out calling them what they are, headstand pushups?
Kipping HSPUs on non-fixed parallettes (what is cheap to make and that most people have) would be a quick way to head/neck/brain damage when a parallette slides out under a "kip". Heck, the CF injury message board had a guy who slipped off the bar doing kipping pullups!

I agree that they should be called headstand pushups. This is one exercise where CF's stated goal of always extending the ROM of an exercise to its full capacity is ignored. This is most plainly a strength issue--stronger men would have a tough time reaching it without some specialization, and it would be the rare freakish woman who ever got one.

i understand the advantage of HeSPU in that only a wall is needed, but PVC paralletes are cheap, and with so much time spent on learning the OL, i think all serious CFers can develop a kipping parallete HSPU.
See above. Regarding OL, did you watch the "snatch" video from the Games? Regarding parallette HSPUs to less than full depth, there is video of that from the Games as well, that part destroyed many of the women, and it only extended the ROM from a floor HeSPU by a couple of inches...

Steven Low
10-28-2009, 07:35 AM
Of course they're junk...

CF has moved more towards barbell work and away from any gymnastics roots it had. They only "gymnastics" things is has are bastardized forms of pushups, pullups, rings dips, muscle ups, and handstand pushups.

Personally, I wouldn't even count pushups,pullups and dips either -- they should be components of any good program regardless of whether it's "gymnastics" or not.

There's nothing more to say really. Unless your affiliate has any emphasis on learning advanced rings strength or proper non-kipping muscle ups and proper HSPUs with parallels, full depth, and proper form. It's just not worth it to says you do any sort of gymnastics.

Anyone who has actually trained any of these moves seriously knows the amount of strength and body awareness they confer which would be insanely beneficial to anyone really.

Alex Bond
10-28-2009, 10:19 AM
I think that part of that is forced by the WODs increasing the reps on HeSPUs. I don't check the main page very often (usually just to look for videos of poor form to giggle at), but I had a couple guys at my last gym who did the main page WOD, and we'd chat about what we were up to that day since they were enlightened compared to most of the clientele there. It seems like it used to be, you do 4 HeSPUs at a time as a part of a 5 rounder or something. There you can actually work to try and get your form decent. Now, they have WODs that program as many as 21 HeSPUs in a row. How is anyone going to keep decent form for 21 in a row? It demands bad form. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Grissim Connery
10-28-2009, 03:53 PM
after reading the replies and thinking about the safety issues, what about chest roll pushups to handstand? i've been working on these for a while, mainly because i just think they're fun (and i'd like to pull off the worm at the next 80's party). i find them quite safe, and technically speaking, you can bail out of them better than wall HeSPUs since you can roll forward.

they're not as hard as 90 degree pushups. in metcons, people are gonna have crazy arched backs during inverted type presses anyways, so why not use this form which kinda necessitates intense arching for at least a portion of the motion?

i just watched some of the CF games 2009 snatch vids. some of it was kinda ugly, but i hate saying that when my snatch isn't great (i just got done with shoulder rehab, and although most tough shoulder things like muscle ups are coming back, i don't wanna touch snatching for a while).

why have barbells become such the focus now? is it a safety concept, or is there some political reason? i remember seeing a video a while back of glassman saying that the most under-utilized tool in CF was dumbells. he talked a bit about kettlebells and pavel, and he seemed to have a stigma in that direction. wasn't glassman a gymnast originally? what about some other underutilized tools like rope climbing? isn't that a little more of his background?

Steven Low
10-28-2009, 08:08 PM
Grissim:

I think very few people have the flexibility and stablization ability to do hollowback press on the floor.

Beats me why they switch towards mostly barbells.

Gavin Harrison
10-28-2009, 10:10 PM
My guess about cf's movement towards mostly barbells is that they're almost infinitely scalable. It's easier to say, "add 5 pounds" to a barbell movement without impeding the speed of execution of the entire workout (aside from the extra power output required), than it is to add an extra rep to something, or weight to a non-barbell movement.

Calisthenics/Gymnastics kind of naturally scale, but to your body size, not your strength size..

This is all just my own theory. We could also assume that if people knew that they could get a good level of strength and conditioning without much equipment at all, that there would be not many people with gym memberships, much less to gyms sporting tons of machines and bars and dumbbells and stuff. The part that makes this harder, is people don't have enough imagination with calisthenics, and it's easier to track progress with a bench press than progression towards a one armed pushup, or a loaded back squat than a progression towards a full one legged squat.

Garrett Smith
10-29-2009, 05:42 AM
As with almost anything, as an idea/movement gets more popular, it tends to get easier (to relate to the masses, thus the scalability of the barbell and less gymnastics) and less like its original incarnation.

Questioning inconsistencies between Glassman's manifestos and the actual implementation of the WODs, and the community's defensive (then attacking) reaction is one major reason I wouldn't stick around there.

One of the best things that CF introduced me to was the idea of gymnastics in my programming. Then I had to realize, much like OL in CF programming, that I wouldn't improve much doing it their way...I needed specialization.

I'm personally not interested in figuring out ways to do 21 HeSPUs faster and faster, with "slop". I want one REALLY GOOD free HSPU on parallettes...a feat that Glassman himself has stated may translate to a 1.5xBW standing press...both are impressive feats. Neither is likely to be reached on WOD programming.

Blair Lowe
11-03-2009, 04:54 PM
Garrett, I believe Glassman said 10 or 15 on parallettes might equal to a 1.5xBW OHP. 1, will not.

I am nearing an OHP but I haven't tried a HSPU on parallettes on the wall in awhile. The last few times I was too tired to do a free HSPU on the floor, I was able to do about 5 in a row from a headstand to handstand.

I'll try tonight after WU.

Chest roll to HS is much easier if you can do big superman rocks. If you can't, it requires a lot more strength.

Barbells are stupid easy compared to gymnastics. WL is not, but I'm talking about just general BB work. Squat isn't as easy as dead or press.

Garrett, there was an old thread at CF and was pretty much joint concluded that a HSPU on parallettes is probably only 80-90% of your BW to press if done on wall only for balance. Free, perhaps 90%+.

In a HSPU, free or on parallettes you can use the stretch reflex unless you get stuck at the bottom.

Coach Sommer shows both HeSPU with the elbows splaying out and the elbows in at various progressions of GB. I think elbows out is more towards the beginning progression spectrum, but dunno.

One of the best things that CF introduced me to was the idea of gymnastics in my programming. Then I had to realize, much like OL in CF programming, that I wouldn't improve much doing it their way...I needed specialization.

Agreed.

Garrett Smith
11-04-2009, 05:46 AM
Blair,
For the folks who concluded that a free HSPU, full ROM, on parallettes only required the ability to press 90+% of one's BW...just curious, how many of those keyboard warriors (not you, of course) had actually ever done one?

jake oleander
11-09-2009, 07:33 PM
Blair,
For the folks who concluded that a free HSPU, full ROM, on parallettes only required the ability to press 90+% of one's BW...just curious, how many of those keyboard warriors (not you, of course) had actually ever done one?

With flexibility, body awareness, balance, and practice I would say that a freestanding full ROM HSPU is roughly equivalent to a bodyweight strict press, but there's a whole lot more to the HSPU than just pressing strength.

Blair Lowe
11-11-2009, 01:05 AM
Garrett, Steve was involved in that thread over on CF but the only people's opinion I noted were the gymnasts.

I also started asking around and looking at some of the people over there with big OHP. Anthony B besides looking into Kelly Moore and asking Roger Harrell, Dan Schmeiding, Steven Low, Brian DeGennero about their OHP besides referencing my own current and past OHP.

This of course was typically regarding a HSPU full range on parallettes against a wall. Not many of us can do it on parallettes. I used to only be able to do it with a balance spot. If you do it right on floor or parallettes you can get a stretch-reflex action out of it that makes it a bit easier than just pressing it out like OHP from a standstill.

As well, for some BW OHP also uses an arch of the chest which helps out quite a bit. It also has more ROM than a parallette HSPU. You just can't get to the nipples on a parallete HSPU without starting to lean it forward like a planche/90 degree pushup/tiger-bend/whatever.

I was playing with the difference of ROM a few weeks ago including doing an OHP with a hollow torso versus a classical OHP that starts on the chest and has the elbows behind the torso. Maybe that's just how my body does it for some anatomical thing but with elbows in line with my torso during an OHP, the bar is not on my chest.

Steven Low
11-11-2009, 08:58 AM
Current strength I can probably do about ~5 free full ROM HSPUs on parallettes. I'd estimate that my press would be around bodyweight or maybe a little above.

Now if you give me 2-4 weeks grease the groove I could probably bring it up at least 15-30 lbs. But pure strict press strength without any neurological adaptations to barbell... it's probably about ~90% press strength for a free HSPU -- IF you were only working HSPUs. There's obviously a lot of specific work that goes into HSPUs as well.

If you're working both HSPUs and press, I am sure that your press strength will be much higher. Probably closer to 100% for a free HSPU. Hence, my practicing both would probably get me up 15-30 lbs past a bodyweight press.

Garrett Smith
11-11-2009, 04:20 PM
Well, allrighty then.

Steven Low
11-11-2009, 06:15 PM
Yeah I dunno. I'm too strong to really have it be a comparison.

You'd have to build people up solely on HSPUs and compare it to a combination of HSPU + press.

Pat McElhone
11-12-2009, 01:16 PM
Here is something for those collecting data.

I weighed 170-175lbs, last weekend was my first olift meet, I weighed 77kg.

2 weeks ago, after reading the GreySkull article, I was interested in my 1RM Press. I pressed 175lbs at 173lbs BW. I have done no press training in over a year. I do a fair amount on Handstand Push-Up, on parrellettes (built from the old CFJ article). I do these with my feet (heels) against the wall. My max rep is 6. So, for me...a very recent max parrellette HSPU (against a wall) of 6 correlated with a standing press of 175lbs (basically BW).

Garrett Smith
11-12-2009, 03:58 PM
Pat,
Are those full ROM, shoulders to (about) hands?

Pat McElhone
11-12-2009, 08:05 PM
Pat,
Are those full ROM, shoulders to (about) hands?

Yes, crown to floor, shoulders to hands, can not go any lower.

Steven Low
11-13-2009, 07:34 AM
For what it's worth there's about a 3:1 ratio of against the wall to free balancing. At least from what I have observed.

Brian Lawyer
11-14-2009, 11:20 AM
Of course they're junk...

CF has moved more towards barbell work and away from any gymnastics roots it had. They only "gymnastics" things is has are bastardized forms of pushups, pullups, rings dips, muscle ups, and handstand pushups.

Personally, I wouldn't even count pushups,pullups and dips either -- they should be components of any good program regardless of whether it's "gymnastics" or not.


Steven, I tend to agree with your analysis except for one thing. What's your knock on Pushups?? It is hard to compromise pushup form. There are different ways to scale a pushup but a basic pushup is generally universal...

Gavin Harrison
11-14-2009, 02:08 PM
Brian,

There was a video of a "kipping pushup" there a while ago on crossfit..

Steven Low
11-14-2009, 02:12 PM
Steven, I tend to agree with your analysis except for one thing. What's your knock on Pushups?? It is hard to compromise pushup form. There are different ways to scale a pushup but a basic pushup is generally universal...
Anyone who trains strength can knock out a set of 40-50 pretty easily. Same with dips when you get to a higher level of strength. Pullups around 20-30. You don't need to train them specifically to be good at them.

Garrett Smith
11-14-2009, 02:47 PM
Speaking of the kipping push-up and the brouhaha over that one...

If one can justify the butterfly kip (or any kip for that matter, but particularly the one-trick-pony butterfly kip) as being of value, IMO, they cannot then attack kipping push-ups, whether horizontal or vertical. It is completely hypocritical. They are intended to accomplish the same thing, more work done in less time.

I don't do any kipping anything anymore, as it doesn't help me reach my gymnastic goals, but for CFers to argue with each other over a kip being okay on a pull-up but not on a push-up...well...

Gant Grimes
11-15-2009, 09:22 PM
Brian,

There was a video of a "kipping pushup" there a while ago on crossfit..

I thought this was a joke. Then I googled it. Wow.

Steven Low
11-15-2009, 09:29 PM
I thought this was a joke. Then I googled it. Wow.
You're behind the times man. :p

Gant Grimes
11-15-2009, 10:54 PM
You're behind the times man. :p

I'm trying to stay that way with regard to certain areas. :cool:

Rafe Kelley
11-15-2009, 11:07 PM
Interesting anecdote on these lines. My roomate and training partner tyson is a genetic freak trains intermittently without focus mostly parkour skill work is muscled like a freak and ridiculously strong. Not particularly good at handstands doesn't work on them so lacks balance but can knock out about five nose to the ground handstand push ups, I had him do press the other day for fun first time he has ever trained the movement he hit 185 at a bodyweight of 162.

jake oleander
11-16-2009, 08:34 AM
I always thought it was funny to see elite crossfitters doing their handstand push ups against a wall, with a wide hand stance, tapping their fully extended heads to the ground. It results in like a 6 inch ROM.

George Mounce
11-17-2009, 04:30 PM
As just a lurker anymore (I only really post in my log and just read the rest), it is truly amazing that a year later, I'm reading about the same issues, the same qualms.

Rock on, I haven't missed a thing. Don't understand why CF doesn't like KBs that much, they are way more functional than about 50% of what they are having people do. I'd rather rock a bottom's up TGU with a heavy KB than do about 90% of what they brag about. I have more functional strength now than I ever did with pure CF, by following Pavel's programming along with the Training Room WODs on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Grissim Connery
11-18-2009, 07:42 PM
one of the things i find interesting is the whole crossfit mainsite picture themes. one of the most common sights is somebody doing a handstand in some cool location. the problem with a lot of these is that the people generally show off really terrible handstands, especially soldiers. it seems to be a metaphor to crossfit's attitude towards form in general.

now i'll admit that i do take some handstand pictures when i'm in cool locations, and they are not always good handstands, but personally, i wouldn't want a bad looking handstand of mine to get posted on the CF mainsite.

Pat McElhone
11-19-2009, 01:12 PM
I have more functional strength now than I ever did with pure CF, by following Pavel's programming along with the Training Room WODs on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Hey George,

I really do not want to start any debate here, but what do you mean by pure CF? Like many, many here, I have long moved on from the mainpage WOD and am long over my "metcon infatuation". But, today I plan on doing some metabolic conditioning. I plan on doing this "metcon"

5 Rounds for time
15 Wall ball- 20lbs, 10ft target
15 2 Pood KB Swings (I will do these RKC, not American/CF style).

I would consider this the purest CF. It is constantly varied, functional movement, where the reps/loads/rounds will allow me to express the most power(intensity). What do you think?

Again, this is not intended to be a debate or a validation of what I do, just want to know what you think. Cheers,

Pat

Garrett Smith
11-19-2009, 01:55 PM
Maybe that needs a new thread, Pat. Or not one at all, as some of us interpret @F to be the mainpage WOD, and that's it.

Blair Lowe
11-21-2009, 02:34 AM
Yeah, George. I find it amusing and unfortunate it in an ironic way that I really like a lot of Pavel's stuff. I'm not sure I'm exactly sold on Sonnon's stuff but well very similar crowd.

I still can't get too excited about TGU.

George Mounce
11-23-2009, 07:01 PM
Hey George,

I really do not want to start any debate here, but what do you mean by pure CF? Like many, many here, I have long moved on from the mainpage WOD and am long over my "metcon infatuation". But, today I plan on doing some metabolic conditioning. I plan on doing this "metcon"

5 Rounds for time
15 Wall ball- 20lbs, 10ft target
15 2 Pood KB Swings (I will do these RKC, not American/CF style).

I would consider this the purest CF. It is constantly varied, functional movement, where the reps/loads/rounds will allow me to express the most power(intensity). What do you think?

Again, this is not intended to be a debate or a validation of what I do, just want to know what you think. Cheers,

Pat

That sounds like a great WOD, I may try that one tomorrow. I am under the impression that fun is a requirement for things these days. If you get a great workout, it helps you reach your goal, and its fun, go for it.

George Mounce
11-23-2009, 07:03 PM
one of the things i find interesting is the whole crossfit mainsite picture themes. one of the most common sights is somebody doing a handstand in some cool location. the problem with a lot of these is that the people generally show off really terrible handstands, especially soldiers. it seems to be a metaphor to crossfit's attitude towards form in general.

now i'll admit that i do take some handstand pictures when i'm in cool locations, and they are not always good handstands, but personally, i wouldn't want a bad looking handstand of mine to get posted on the CF mainsite.

I like where you are going with that...If you are going to do anything, you should strive to do it well.

Chris Salvato
11-29-2009, 01:22 AM
Re: 90% BW Press with just HSPU Training.

I can do 2-3 HSPU against the wall full ROM on flat boxes and 1-2 on PB. I tested my Press without any press training for nearly a year and I pushed 156 and that was definitely very close to, if not a true 1RM.

My BW at the time was 175 or so...last weigh in was 172.

156/172 = 90.69%
156/175 = 89.14%

90% BW sounds about right to me...

Garrett Smith
11-29-2009, 06:22 AM
Now that I've started pressing, 90% BW press does sound about right to me.

Before, I was able to do a moderately slow free negative HSPU (from the top down), then get a slight push out of the bottom (somewhat close to 90 degrees in the elbow on my best days).

Just tested my press, I was at 149#, I was around 185ish, so I definitely have some room to improve my press, which should translate to my HSPUs.

Patrick Donnelly
11-29-2009, 12:59 PM
Any of you tried doing HSPU with a pause at the bottom? Eliminating the stretch reflex would make the drive off the bottom much more comparable to a press.

If you use the stretch reflex, I could definitely see a HSPU being easier than a 1.0x bodyweight press.

Pat McElhone
11-29-2009, 01:34 PM
HSPU on parellettes against a wall are not very dynamic. The descent is a controlled neg., the ascent a push. I touch my forehead to the floor. I do not see the stretch reflex of in my parellette HSPU.

Blair Lowe
11-29-2009, 05:10 PM
Pat, a pause is different than a stop. Besides, it really sucks to hold it there at the bottom.

I've tried pressing from shoulderstand to handstand and it is a bitch and a half. Course that was on rings with my legs inside the straps ( so not a free HS ). I haven't honestly tried on parallettes in a long time.

Arching the HSPU out of the bottom makes it easier like a typical press. Not recruiting the chest in the press makes it tougher.

Tom Rawls
12-06-2009, 09:47 AM
Hey George,

I really do not want to start any debate here, but what do you mean by pure CF? Like many, many here, I have long moved on from the mainpage WOD and am long over my "metcon infatuation". But, today I plan on doing some metabolic conditioning.


Although i don't pay much attention to x-fit, my impression is that "for time" is an essential element. That is, an all-out effort, or close to it, is an essential element of most workouts. This aspect of x-fit explains why you won't find a competitive athlete in any sport using the x-fit intensity prescription. It's just wrong.

Blair Lowe
12-08-2009, 02:09 AM
Tom, in CF programming there are the strength days that are 7x1, 7x3, 5x5 besides the WOD's like 5k of rowing or running.

However, when we tend to think of CF, metcons come to mind.