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View Full Version : I am having a serious disconnect with hip drive in the clean and snatch


Arden Cogar Jr.
11-06-2009, 08:52 AM
Can someone please give me an iota of what I should feel or some "cues" in order to get myself to do it.

I'm not getting tall enough on either lift and it's causing me to go foreward to get the weights. I need to stop that - and that's likely because I'm not driving correctly with my legs from the start (perhaps my hip position is too low?); and I'm rehabbing from a knee tweak of last week, so all my weights are light and my movements power. Kinda frustrating when you get injured and have to train around stuff. But par for the course and the joy of age. Oh, and I hate box squats, but they are taking the strain off my knee, so I'm doing it.

w/f/s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2WK86Baonc

Thanks in advance for any commentary. I'm hoping that Greg, Glenn, Yoon, or Mike can comment.

All the best,
Arden

Michael McKenna
11-06-2009, 09:46 AM
I do that same thing. Questions:

1. Do you always use straps to snatch?

2. What's up with the knee?

3. What's going on with the pause in the clean?

To fix it, try this: snatch from the hang, then snatch below the knee, then snatch from the floor. Don't put the bar down. That might work if you've done the snatches right int he past; you'll remind your nervous system what to do. I give this a 20% chance of success. Relax your arms consciously when you do them.

Observations: Your hips look a little high. You don't look comfortable at all in the start position.On the cleans, your back is rounded when you pull off the floor, and it moves- the bar path changes when you hit your arch.

This reply is disjointed and not organized, I apologize. I'm throwing things out quickly because I need to go set up for tonight. Basically, you look like you're fighting the movements the whole way. Is there a big change int he environment other than the knee? Cold? Time change?

Greg Everett
11-06-2009, 12:39 PM
only watched the first 2 snatches, but based on that -

You're starting too far over the bar in my opinion and looking at the floor - this is just setting you up to be pulled forward and chase the bar with your hips. You can start in that position if you really want, but you will have to make way more of an effort to get back on your heels right when you separate the bar from the floor and to stay there all the way up to the top.

I'd prefer to see your hips down considerably, bar over balls of the feet, eyes straight ahead.

Sit back and up when you break the bar rather than lifting it straight up, and always think of bringing the bar back into your hips rather than pushing the hips to the bar.

Yuen Sohn
11-06-2009, 01:47 PM
Arden,
Regarding the cleans, it looks like you're doing something funky with the arms as soon as the bar clears the knees. I think that's probably affecting your power somewhat. I'll go into more detail later on...

Yuen Sohn
11-06-2009, 03:23 PM
OK:
Here's two of your cleans (starting from just below the knees and ending at the rack), slowed down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ips1p-Ojw

That mini pull/row you do moments after the bar gets above knee level seems to be contributing to a disjointed 2nd pull. Seriously relax the arms and make the motion more fluid.

Oliver Gould
11-06-2009, 06:45 PM
Early arm bend and the hips are rising before the chest. I'm sure Greg will come along and straighten you out, but I'm gonna make two suggestions (mostly to see if they line up with his :D )

1) Drop your hips a little more at the start, keep your arms straight and pick your chest up to take all the slack out of the bar.

2) Pull by bringing your chest up and stay back so that you can drive hard through your heels.

Martin Bonn
11-07-2009, 05:36 AM
Right so bearing in mind i m a beginner too:

what helps me to finish the pull and stand up with the weight is to hang on just a bit longer than i want to. so next time, leave another split second before you go under the weight. (easier said than done, my coach uses the cue 'stretch' and 'stand up with the weight')

hope that helps.

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-07-2009, 03:52 PM
Wow!!! Thanks everyone. It's going to take me a while to digest it all, but i'll get it. I'm too OCD not too.

Yoon - wicked thanks for the slo mo. i knew there was something going on with my clean, but I couldn't sort it out. I've been working up to 150 basically curling and rowing the bar. No wonder I'm trying to pull the bar so high.

Mike, the knee is getting better. I tweaked it squatting deep last week. It's getting better. It's okay for a few reps, then it aches. I'm just being overly cautious.

I'll summarize the above so I can digest it. But first, I am going to think about it. Need to make certain I understand. I hope that makes sense?

Thanks again,

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-08-2009, 09:08 AM
Again, Many thanks to everyone for your thoughts. Here's what I've deduced I'm going to do my darndest to work on in as session less than an hour away.

Snatch:
1. lower hip position.
2. sit back more
3. push the bar back by contracting my lats and sticking out my chest hard.
4. neutral head - straight forward.
5. drive my heels through the floor throughout the pull - keep the bar close.
6. pull straight instead of throwing my head back.

Clean
1. lower hip position.
2. sit back more.
3. push the bar back, contracting my lats and sticking out my chest hard
4. netural head - straight forward
5. drive my heels through the floor throughout the pull - keep the bar close.
6. arms remain straight - shoulders stay forward and don't go back - no Rowing!!!
7. pull straight intead of throwing my head back.


We'll see what happens. LIkley too much to soon. Less bad habits than one year ago, but still a lot to work on.

Thanks agian everyone.

All the best,
Arden

Martin Bonn
11-08-2009, 12:17 PM
good luck with all that! gotta be hard to work with weights that must feel so light for you! i admire your patience!

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-08-2009, 05:37 PM
good luck with all that! gotta be hard to work with weights that must feel so light for you! i admire your patience!

Martin,
Olympic lifting is so humbling. I love it. It's so technical it requires perfection in order to get it right. Given that age is catching up with me, from a dynamic standpoint, I love this stuff. It's keeping me young.

I've been at it about two years now. Full movements right at a year. Slowly but surely.

Thanks so much.

I did get my session in today.

On my snatches, I noticed that I'm not jumping forward, so that's good. On one of the reps with 85, I really bounced it out and pulled my head back. Bad - really bad bar trajectory. I'm still bumping the bar too much. I need to think vertical extension and less throwing my head back. The head back is really causing the bar trajectory to go out front. I did some pulls at the end and I think I'm getting the idea. I think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fow8ZaA0xMo

I then did some cleans. I think I remedied part of the row. This one is going to be hard as I'm almost pausing when the bar is touching my mid to upper thigh. Lots to work on here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBM0pVlYgM

I think the cleans might actually be better. Maybe.

Thanks again everyone.

All the best,
ARden
All the best,
Arden

Brian DeGennaro
11-08-2009, 05:56 PM
Arden, think of that thigh brush as your cue to explode as fast as you can as opposed to a pause. Re-teach yourself to GO! at that exact moment.

garrett stack
11-09-2009, 02:34 AM
it may help to take it off the floor slower for a while

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-09-2009, 10:34 AM
Arden, think of that thigh brush as your cue to explode as fast as you can as opposed to a pause. Re-teach yourself to GO! at that exact moment.
Thanks Brian. I'll do that. Pop and Drop. Unfortuantely, I'm relegated to doing power movements until my left knee heals up. It's close, but I'm going to give it another week.

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-09-2009, 10:35 AM
it may help to take it off the floor slower for a while

Thanks Garrett.

I'm finding that when I'm working on one thing, I forget others. I hate that. Information overload. Part of me wants to go into my next session and simply free my mind and lift the weight. See what happens.

Don't know if that makes any sense? But I feel as though I'm trying to do too many things and I'm getting worse technically.

Very frustrating. But part of improving.

All the best,
Arden

garrett stack
11-09-2009, 04:19 PM
Arden I know exactly what you mean , not exactly the most proficient myself but I know that my coach getting me to pull the bar steady off the floor and then explode as Brian said as fast as possible over the knee helped me to improve the hitch/pause I had in my lifts.
Hopefully you'll find a cue that works for you.

Brian DeGennaro
11-09-2009, 04:58 PM
Arden, try this for a warmup:

Use about 40kg, that ought to be very light for you. Snatch/Clean deadlift the weight to your thighs, making sure to sweep those knees far back. Pause for a second there and then explode straight UP, turning that bar over as soon as you explode (think using the arms to PULL UNDER the bar rather than pull up). Do a few reps with that pause. Eventually string it together where you have a pause for one rep and then just go straight through for the second.

I've been using this drill as a warmup every day and I have improved my positioning, speed, and timing so much from it. Make sure you spend some serious time using this to warm up, like 5-8 sets. You'll feel awesome and be able to make a big jump to the next weight.

Martin Bonn
11-10-2009, 07:19 AM
Thanks Garrett.

I'm finding that when I'm working on one thing, I forget others. I hate that. Information overload. Part of me wants to go into my next session and simply free my mind and lift the weight. See what happens.

Don't know if that makes any sense? But I feel as though I'm trying to do too many things and I'm getting worse technically.

I know EXACTELY what you mean! when i started i really didn t get the double knee bend, so i did pulls off blocks, using straps.
that way you can concentrate on the transition and you can relax your arms (i only use straps for snatches, never cleans: too tight to turn the bar over).
maybe you can give that a shot? it's similar to what brian is saying, only i did it off the blocks so i can set up in peace and really focus on the transition.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P-Kdi3jubg) is kinda what i mean, only this time i took it off the blocks, really light weight, just trying to correct what 1 year without a coach had done to me!

Bill Ennis
11-10-2009, 09:08 AM
I want to thank everyone as well for all the tips for Arden . I've had a problem with the second pull as well . Brian - That thigh brush cue works perfectly for me . I read it just before going to do a snatch workout ; thought GO !!! right at that point and my PR just went up 5 lbs !!
So thanks to everyone - I've found it very instructional.
Bill

Brian DeGennaro
11-10-2009, 10:43 AM
Keep in mind, 40kg is supposed to be very light. For a big guy like Arden, it's hardly anything, it just puts the bar on the floor for the right height. I use 5kg plates whenever i do that drill.

also, I forgot to mention this, but your hamstrings ought to get sore if you end up doing this right from first set to your last work set. Mine are feeling some knarly soreness today.

Again, I edit. Here is a picture depicting exactly the position I am talking about:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/69/183346268_af627de1bf.jpg

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-11-2009, 07:13 AM
Brian,
Great drill. Will do. I sort of feel that like that position is almost like a RDL with the bar a bit closer to your body. Is that the right sort of feel? But with the knees a bit more bent of course?

Working on this stuff. The main thing for me at this point is getting my chest out and getting rid of that row/pause that I've got going on with the second pull. I'm also limited to power movements until the middle age tweakys go away in my left knee. It's almost there, but I want to give it some more time.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and input. Great to share the knowledge.

All the best,
Arden

Brian DeGennaro
11-11-2009, 07:57 AM
It's just simply a halting deadlift into a snatch/clean, that's the best way to look at it. Eventually you reduce the halt every few reps until you're doing the full lift. It is a positioning drill, getting you into a good position for the 2nd pull.

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-11-2009, 10:50 AM
Here's snippets from my session yesterday. Still rowing a bit and pausing when I should be exploding. I need to get my chest out more and my hips higher on the full reps. It's coming, slowly but surely. Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts and input. I've got to get back to the basics and forget about the fine points right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-45NBdBWGs

All the best,
Arden

Brian DeGennaro
11-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Did you rip your pants? That's awesome. It looks noticeably better.

Some notes:

- keep head up, that will facilitate chest up
- Think speed above the knee, from there to your shoulders or overhead should be as fast as possible

Arden Cogar Jr.
11-11-2009, 12:25 PM
Did you rip your pants? That's awesome. It looks noticeably better.

Some notes:

- keep head up, that will facilitate chest up
- Think speed above the knee, from there to your shoulders or overhead should be as fast as possible


Thanks Brian. No rip in the pants. Rehband warm pants and Rehband knee sleeves. The bottom of the warm pants comes up if I let teh bar rub too soon. It's sort of a reminder that I'm not getting tall enough.

Head up, chest up and speed above the knee. Looking forward to returning to full lifts soon.

All the best,
Arden