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View Full Version : Hard Style, Fluid style


Mark Joseph Limbaga
11-23-2009, 05:08 PM
This got me thinking since from where I am right now, I have yet to meet someone who was formally trained in the hardstyle so I was wondering if anyone over here has trained in both and can explain the pros and cons of each style..

as of now, my opinion is that some people find the fluid style more natural, but find the hardstyle difficult and unnatural, same as with the hardstyle, some people like it, others don't

just wanna get opinions here... thanks

Chris H Laing
11-23-2009, 06:15 PM
I'm not really sure what hard style and fluid style are? Anyone care to enlighten me?

Gary Ohm
11-23-2009, 07:10 PM
Well I don't know how you would classify "formally training" in hard style, but my instructor was a RKC master instructor. He taught "hard style" and did only a little comparing with fluid or "soft" style.
In my training, everything in your body contracted at the top of the rep. We did a drill called "tough love" where your partner punched or kicked you at the top of the rep. The blows could be in the quads, butt, gut, ribs or wherever. The point was to make every rep a full body contraction.
Fluid style, like in GS, is all about efficiency. You can't do full body contractions with 72# snatches for ten minutes. You have to get into a rhythm and a groove to make it work.
Someone explained it to me saying; "hard style is like running a 400 or 800 meter race, while fluid (soft) is like running the mile or the 5k. It all hurts, it just hurts a little different."


Did this help at all???:o

Garrett Smith
11-23-2009, 07:42 PM
Go to one of Steve Cotter's IKFF certs...it's one of the few places where both styles are taught and put in their proper context.

Anyone can learn how to tense up during exercise, that's actually a pretty natural/instinctual response. Learning how to relax/contract/relax in quick succession is what (I've heard) separates the average athlete from the great ones.

Learning fluid style first makes hard style easy to learn. Learning hard style first makes fluid style difficult to learn. IMHO...I've taken both the RKC and IKFF certs.

Gary Ohm
11-23-2009, 08:14 PM
Anyone can learn how to tense up during exercise, that's actually a pretty natural/instinctual response. Learning how to relax/contract/relax in quick succession is what (I've heard) separates the average athlete from the great ones.


That makes sense and is what I was trying to get at.


Learning fluid style first makes hard style easy to learn. Learning hard style first makes fluid style difficult to learn. IMHO...I've taken both the RKC and IKFF certs.

I think that also makes good sense. I had no formal instruction with the fluid style, so it feels pretty foreign to me. I feel almost like it takes too much patience... That probably doesn't make much sense.

Do you have a preference Garret? What do you see as advantages or disadvantages of each?

Blair Lowe
11-23-2009, 11:23 PM
http://www.rmaxinternational.com/flowcoach/?p=317

JFC, it's a god damn KB. Not MA or sex.

Garrett Smith
11-24-2009, 05:10 AM
Gary,
My preference is for fluid style if using a KB.

You want high tension, use a BB and do PL.

Want a mix of the two, do some OL.

Darryl Shaw
11-24-2009, 05:39 AM
I'm not really sure what hard style and fluid style are? Anyone care to enlighten me?

http://www.fullkontact.com/pdfs/crossfit2.pdf

Allen Yeh
11-24-2009, 07:44 AM
Nice article.

Catherine Imes
11-24-2009, 08:14 AM
I really don't like the "Fluid Style" term anymore or soft. That's an old article.

The way I teach the lifts it is a matter of alignment. I'll give you an example, when you do a snatch, and the bell is back on the swing, the weight is on the heels, but as the weight swings back forward, you shift the weight towards the front of your feet. At this point, it is optimal for you to extend the knees (Like the first bump in the jerk). This does 2 things, it reduces the likelihood that you will pull with the arm (Grip saver) and it also ensures that you will take full advantage of the pendulum effect of the swing.

Fact is that snatches and Jerks are athletic movements (maybe not as complex or as difficult as the barbell versions).

Soft indicates that you should be relaxed. That isn't how it is. I've seen folks be relaxed overhead and rip up their shoulders with snatches. I tell people to actually be aggressive with their fixation of the bell overhead when learning. The only time you can relax is when the bell has actually stopped and it is supported by the skeletal system.

Hardstyle swings were taught in terms of keeping the weight on the heels and thrusting with the glutes. It is ok as an exercise, but had poor carryover to the snatch because the trajectory of that type of swing was out and not up.

CI

Catherine Imes
11-24-2009, 08:19 AM
One other thing..It all depends on your goals.

Hardstyle swings seem to have more carryover to deadlifts than anything. I've also heard folks comment that hardstyle swings had ill-carryover to the barbelll lifts because someone doing them pushes the bar out...I think it will depend on the athlete.

I'm a KB Lifter. My goals are to lift the KBs for very high reps. So, my focus has been on technique that allows me to do that. Not everyone will have those aspirations, but I still feel the version of the snatch as I teach it (and what is taught by some of us or thought of as a fluid style) is athletic and it teaches timing and requires the athlete to be aware of where their weight is..that kind of thing. Other things do that...But, when I was heavily entrenched in the RKC...none of that stuff was covered. Their goals are different. Snatches (and Jerks are not taught in the level 1) are just one of several exercises. They have a different focus. Our focus in terms of KB usage is simply high reps.

CI

Gary Ohm
11-24-2009, 09:23 AM
http://www.fullkontact.com/pdfs/crossfit2.pdf

Great article. Thank you for the link. The video at the end is nice too.

Mark Joseph Limbaga
11-26-2009, 07:56 PM
I really don't like the "Fluid Style" term anymore or soft. That's an old article.

The way I teach the lifts it is a matter of alignment. I'll give you an example, when you do a snatch, and the bell is back on the swing, the weight is on the heels, but as the weight swings back forward, you shift the weight towards the front of your feet. At this point, it is optimal for you to extend the knees (Like the first bump in the jerk). This does 2 things, it reduces the likelihood that you will pull with the arm (Grip saver) and it also ensures that you will take full advantage of the pendulum effect of the swing.

Fact is that snatches and Jerks are athletic movements (maybe not as complex or as difficult as the barbell versions).

Soft indicates that you should be relaxed. That isn't how it is. I've seen folks be relaxed overhead and rip up their shoulders with snatches. I tell people to actually be aggressive with their fixation of the bell overhead when learning. The only time you can relax is when the bell has actually stopped and it is supported by the skeletal system.

Hardstyle swings were taught in terms of keeping the weight on the heels and thrusting with the glutes. It is ok as an exercise, but had poor carryover to the snatch because the trajectory of that type of swing was out and not up.

CI

Would you happen to have a vid of how you snatch? just for reference purposes :)

Catherine Imes
12-01-2009, 08:24 AM
Here is my youtube channel.

There are sets with 16kg (25rpm for 8 min). A set with a 24kg where I did 12rpm, and a set with a 20kg (15rpm I think).

http://www.youtube.com/user/cimes01

My technique is actually better in the 24kg and 20kg set. When I was snatching all 16kg, I was pushing pace to hit 240 reps in 10 min (Did it at home where it doesn't count but never in a comp..my comp best was 221).

CI

Ben Moskowitz
12-03-2009, 12:54 PM
I really don't like the "Fluid Style" term anymore or soft. That's an old article.


Just curious, but what do you prefer then? GS?

Catherine Imes
12-04-2009, 05:50 AM
Ben,

How about KB Lifting? My goal as KB Lifter is to get the most reps in a given duration; just like a Weightlifters goal is to put the most weight overhead. That's why Greg Everett's recent article in the Performance Menu really resonated with me in terms of Technique for the Generalist. I teach these principles to folks lifting KBs for Fitness and Sport.

I've coached and taught to quite a few people who mis-construed the relaxation or fluid terms to mean something else. These terms were also applied because the elite level lifters like my Coach Valery Fedorenko look relaxed when they lift, but this is because they are very skilled.

I know what Cotter's intent was at the time he wrote the article because we talked quite a bit then. I think he meant it to counter the tension used in Hard Style..which I understand. But, now after I've had to teach folks to not be loose or relaxed particularly in the fixation/lockout segment of the lifts, I do not like those adjectives. When someone is learning to put the weight overhead safely (even a light one) in a ballistic manner, I don't want them to think about being relaxed or even fluid. I want them to think about stopping or fixating it. "Fluid" ect...comes after you develop skill.

CI