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Clay Jones
11-27-2009, 08:37 AM
I’m interested in getting some feedback on my planned fat loss program, Yeah, I’ll admit it, I’m fat. Comes from being Irish and liking potatoes. :D Honestly tho, I need to drop 25# or so.

A bit about me: 51 yo, been lifting since HS, most of it wasted on magazine workouts. Did CF, but am back to working on Oly lifts and GPP. I have a back surgery in my past plus some occasional shoulder discomfort (from Ju-Jitsu and volleyball), so I doubt I’ll ever be looking to lift really heavy. 6’4”, 270#, but I should really be under 250#, as I was really a skinny kid till I injured my back (I am probably a classic example of skinny-fat). My goal is to drop 20# for starters, and this will be my only fitness goal for the time being. No “I wanna get ripped/cut/Westside/Kettlebells/whatever” stuff. I have taken about 10# off so far, but I have to change up the diet I have been following (Eades 6 Week Cure).

Let me get the most important thing out of the way: Diet. I’ll be following a Paleo diet; I have been grain-free for the most part of the year, and I actually enjoy eating mostly meat and veggies, with the occasional piece of fruit. The only dairy I use is milk, but I may cut that out for the time being. My big issue is not food, but portion control (i can overeat if not keeping tabs), so I’ll be logging (but not measuring) my food. Also supplementing with D/A/Fish oil, that’s about it.

I’m going to stick to a GPP style workout, and was thinking of using a program Mike Moore posted a while back. It looks like this (edited):

Here's a barbell complex I use and have used with some of my wrestlers. I suggest starting with 3 or 4 "rounds" and using a rest interval between rounds of 1 1/2 minutes. Decrease RI by 15 seconds each week until you reach 45 seconds, then increase rounds by 1. Repeat process until you are doing 5-6 rounds, then instead of increasing rounds, increase weight. Anyway - 8 exercises (or as some prefer "movements" - some people will get that one), 6 reps each exercise (not as easy as it sounds once you hit the push presses), NEVER let go of the bar and never stop moving:

1. Deadlift
2. RDL
3. Bent Over Row
4. Cleans (from the floor or hang cleans - your choice - or Dan John's Whip Snatches)
5. Front Squat
6. Push Press
7. Back Squat (full)
8. Good Mornings



Link here, from PMenu forum: http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10251

I have been doing this workout for the past week and like it, tho I may substitute some other movement for the good mornings. I’m starting pretty light, 75# or so. This would be the only workout I would do for 4-6 weeks.

My plan would be:

Day 1: Workout
Day 2: Workout
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Workout
Day 5: Workout
Day 6: Work on Oly technique (very light lifts), or else just stretch/rest
Day 7: Rest

Given that I’m at that point in life where I need a little extra recovery, I may end up just resting on day 6. I’ll also be taking a few long hikes each week. I’ll also start a training log on the board to keep myself honest.

Thoughts, comments? See any weaknesses? Thanks in advance.

Derek Weaver
11-27-2009, 06:22 PM
I think it looks pretty good. That barbell complex though.... are you going to be doing that 4 days/week? I may not be reading that right.

If you are... I'd suggest something other than that frequency day in, day out.

Don't be afraid to get a calorie count for portions and then plus them in earlier. LIke you said, portion control is key. Knowing what your portions represent in relation to your metabolic rate is important.

Clay Jones
11-28-2009, 07:43 AM
I think it looks pretty good. That barbell complex though.... are you going to be doing that 4 days/week? I may not be reading that right.

If you are... I'd suggest something other than that frequency day in, day out.

Don't be afraid to get a calorie count for portions and then plus them in earlier. LIke you said, portion control is key. Knowing what your portions represent in relation to your metabolic rate is important.Thanks for the input, Derek. I think your idea of using a calorie counter is great. I totaled up my C/P/F calories yesterday, and it was quite a eye-opener. I'm eating far more carbs than I thought.

I'm going to be aiming for 1g protein per lb. of lean body mass, then filling in with fats and carbs. I'm going to restrict carbs to veggies and some fruits. 1 cheat meal per week. I just ran across dietgenie which will be a big help.

As for the BB complex, I would be doing the same number of reps each time, but adding to the # of sets each workout plus reducing the rest time between sets. So day 1 I'd do 3 rounds, day 2 I'd do 4, and so on. Any ideas on how to vary the programming? I chose it because it would be easy to do (initially) plus I could get it done in 20--25 minutes in the AM, before work. I'm open to suggestions as far as sets/reps/frequency, as well as other exercises. I have thought about subbing in a strength day or Oly lifting day for one of the days, but since fat loss is the primary goal I don't know if it would help.

Thanks again.

Derek Weaver
11-28-2009, 03:23 PM
I think maybe calorie king or one of those books that is readily available at a pharmacy or drug store would b a good idea. At least for a while to figure out what/how much you actually eat.

To vary the programming... I'd switch things to either 3 full body-ish workouts with the BB complex as a "finisher" if it's something you need, or upper lower 3-4 days/week. I just wouldn't repeat the same complex over and over expecting the weight to increase and rest times to consistently decrease.

I think a better idea is to do your strength stuff, remember to lift heavy and increase activity level another. Hikes, walks, cycling, rowing, swimming etc. Low impact stuff.

Basically a low weight (relative to your actual strength levels) BB complex every day is a bad idea.

Jay Cohen
11-29-2009, 04:52 AM
80 % of body composition is determined in the kitchen, strength is determined in the gym, this is appx, don't quote me and no, I don't have any studies to back it up.

Hence if you're primary goal is to loose fat, YOU HAVE TO DIAL IN YOUR EATING. Track via Fitday or some other program, every single bite you take in, give it 30 days until you get a feel for what and how much you're eating. Paleo is fine, but, you can still gain weight.

Determine your time line to reach your goal weight, post it around the house and understand, it's a battle and you need to really NOT cheat(at least for 30 days), determine your macro %%'s that work for you , then stick with it. If you want to loose 25 lbs in 5 months, well, that's 5 lbs per month, or about 1.25 per week. Sounds doable, but, you have to stay focused.

Mike O said it best, Loose weight, eat less, Gain weight eat more. See, this sounds simple and you're shaking your head, going, " I know that", well the fact is, weight gain/loose is simple stuff, but people are looking for formula's or plans to follow, way over complicating it.

Pick up the fork more, or less, you choice.

That's my 2 cents on this Sunday morning...................

George Mounce
11-29-2009, 05:29 AM
Jay hit it right, the food you eat is the best determining factor in your body composition.

Eat foods that has what your body needs and you'll not only eat less, but your composition will follow suit.

Clay Jones
11-29-2009, 09:58 AM
To vary the programming... I'd switch things to either 3 full body-ish workouts with the BB complex as a "finisher" if it's something you need, or upper lower 3-4 days/week. I just wouldn't repeat the same complex over and over expecting the weight to increase and rest times to consistently decrease.

I think a better idea is to do your strength stuff, remember to lift heavy and increase activity level another. Hikes, walks, cycling, rowing, swimming etc. Low impact stuff.
Derek, I had to think about that a bit, but it makes sense. I like your idea of adding the complex in after a strength workout. I知 now leaning toward a 3 day whole body WO, that way I can toss in some extra hikes and the like.

80 % of body composition is determined in the kitchen, strength is determined in the gym, this is appx, don't quote me and no, I don't have any studies to back it up.

Hence if you're primary goal is to loose fat, YOU HAVE TO DIAL IN YOUR EATING. Track via Fitday or some other program, every single bite you take in, give it 30 days until you get a feel for what and how much you're eating. Paleo is fine, but, you can still gain weight.

Determine your time line to reach your goal weight, post it around the house and understand, it's a battle and you need to really NOT cheat(at least for 30 days), determine your macro %%'s that work for you , then stick with it. If you want to loose 25 lbs in 5 months, well, that's 5 lbs per month, or about 1.25 per week. Sounds doable, but, you have to stay focused.

Pick up the fork more, or less, you choice.



Thanks Jay. I may make your "pick up the fork" line my sig. :D

All of what you say makes sense. I have been logging my food for the past few days, and it is clear to me that what I thought I was eating and what I am actually eating are two different things. I知 taking in too many carbs, not enough protein and fat. I値l need to play around with the macro percentages, but my immediate response will be to cut out the junk/excess carbs. I知 going to start with a max of ~80g of carbs per day, and adjust it each week (I'll need to play with my carb levels a bit).

I知 going to set a goal of a pound a week and give myself a deadline for the first 20 lbs. If I lose more, great. I think a pound a week is rational. I値l check out Fitday, but I will probably keep a paper log and use a calorie counter book in the beginning. I have been recording my daily food intake in my training log, which it is actually working out pretty well. I may toss in an occasional IF day, but my focus will need to be my daily calorie intake.

Looks like I have some work to do.

Thanks for all the responses.

Derek Weaver
11-29-2009, 11:45 AM
I'm glad to see Jay's still around here from time to time. Good to see you post my friend.

The 80% diet rule is a good and accurate one. Kinda Paretto's Principle with that whole 80/20 thing.

A couple points I'd add:
Don't fear carbs. They do a few good things and are not completely and utterly evil. I would keep them primarily "Paleo" though in terms of tolerance. LImit sugar, keep starches to yams, sweet potatoes, carrots and other roots and tubers. Fruit is harder to overdo than most think, but can be done. Keep things to water heavy choices like berries, oranges, apples etc and you should be fine.

I'd honestly set macros on grams/lb instead of percentages.

Clay Jones
11-29-2009, 07:11 PM
I'd honestly set macros on grams/lb instead of percentages. It took me a while but I figured this out (I'm a bit dense); I ran across one of your other posts where you outline the method. I'll do the calc and post some numbers later, using desired (finishing) weight. That should give me a slight deficit to work with. edit: I think my earlier estimate of 80g carbs/day was a bit low, given my height/weight.

Those carb choices sound like they will work for me, I have never been a fan of sweet potatoes but I did try some with dinner tonight (TJ's has them pre-sliced, talk about lazy). I'm also busy coming up with some carb options for work, as I tend to overeat (carbs esp) when stressed. I'm planning on avoiding the break room at work, as someone always brings in some sort of carb surprise, presented with the disclaimer "but it's low fat!"

I'm going to do a test run this week, If all goes well I'll start my log next week.

Thanks Derek.

Derek Weaver
11-29-2009, 08:44 PM
Anytime Clay. Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions you don't want to post. I've made every mistake, many times more than once.

Don't be afraid to experiment with different ways to prepare the sweet potatoes. Just be mindful of any additives and oils that may be used. Easy way to let energy intake creep up on you.

I got curious, and am also a big geek, after the other post I made today and worked out rough estimates of macros, cals and maintenance. If you'd like I can post them up or PM them to you. Or I can back off since it's your goals and project.

Clay Jones
11-29-2009, 09:52 PM
I got curious, and am also a big geek, after the other post I made today and worked out rough estimates of macros, cals and maintenance. If you'd like I can post them up or PM them to you. Or I can back off since it's your goals and project.Hey Derek, go ahead and post up your figures; I'd be interested in seeing what you have come up with.

I'm guessing I'm around 12 cals/lb of BWT given my fitness and activity levels, which puts me at around 3,000 cals daily (but that is just a guess). Funny thing is, I don't think I'm eating that much, so I'm going to need to really log everything I eat for the next few weeks. That, and up my activity level. :)

Derek Weaver
12-01-2009, 11:03 PM
Clay,
Sorry, it took a little bit for me to see your response here. If you're thinking 12 cals/lb to lose weight/fat, then you're likely right, but I'd do something like this first. This is going to be long, but I think it should answer any questions that may come up and give you something to come back to if need be. Still, feel free to continue to question.:
270 g/carbs, 270 g/protein, 120-130 g/fat... all per total lb of BW.

That should work out to between: 3240 and 3330 (approximate, a little over, a little under every day won't make much difference, 100-200 cals either way)

Which is approx 12 cals/lb on the low end with 120 grams of fat per day. Accounting for age when calculating BMR the estimate on the low(er) end at 14 cals/lb just to maintain comes up at 3780 ( call it 3800) cals/day. That's enough to generate ~1 lb drop per week. Once you've lost 5-10 lbs (not just initial water weight), assess progress. if you're losing steadily, then keep things the same. If you're not, then re work calories/macros and possibly activity (too little, too much?)

My guess would be a couple things with regards to current intake. Too much sugary crap (break room. mine at work is a killer, so I can empathize), too much starch in general... basically carbs that add up quickly. Oatmeal, if you don't have any intolerance issues, sweet potatoes, tubers and roots in general, fruit and vegetables. All are good choices, with the starchier choices best around workouts and other strenuous activity..

The second guess that I'd throw out there is the passive overconsumption of fat. It's easy to do. Next time you make a salad and decided to put some oil and vinegar on it, measure out how much you think you want/need of the oil in tablespoons. Each tablespoon is approx 14 grams of fat if it's olive oil. That's not a lot of oil. If you use 3 T of olive oil you've got 42 grams of fat for 378 cals. There goes your deficit if you don't make it up some other way.

My suggestion as you get on your way is to actually get an idea, like were were posting back and forth on earlier, of what you eat and what you need to eat to lose. If you're doing well, and not going crazy doing the measuring then keep it up. Don't fix it if it's not broken. It's the best way to stay accountable. If the measuring and counting is driving you crazy (understandable) then stop only once you have a solid idea of how much of each macro and how many calories are in the choice you're making.

Like Jay said, it's really not that complicated. Eat less, lose. Eat more, gain. The problem is that almost nobody knows how much food they're stuffing down each day. Snacking really adds up as well.

There are other ideas that can be applied as well, but I would start with an approach like this first.

Clay Jones
12-09-2009, 06:43 AM
Derek, thanks for the info. Been a bit busy at work so no time for the Internet till now. I have come up with similar numbers, tho my fat %ages may be a bit higher. Interesting that when I eat Zone (which I never do anymore) My cal requirements come out at around 2700 Cal. Not surprised that the Zone is oft considered a starvation diet. I'll post up my numbers later, don't have my training log in front of me.

I kept a food log for a week, the amount of sugar and empty Cals I was eating was nothing short of amazing. It is interesting to see how easy it is to let excess/low nutrition food in when you do not keep a log, but once I started tracking everything I found it pretty easy to modify my behavior, and everything fell into place. Now that I have cut out all the sugary crap and eat more whole foods, it is so much easier to control appetite. I also find myself eating less. Robb had made comments on his blog about how high carb/processed diets irritate the gut and prevent the uptake of calories, I'd be surprised if something like that was not happening in my case.

Clay Jones
08-08-2011, 09:45 AM
Wow, 2 years since I posted this. Time for a follow-up.

It took me another 6 months to actually get around to following Derek's suggestions; I actually started working on dropping weight in earnest at around May 2010, when I weighed in at 286. Things became progressively easier in June and July, as I am off most of the summer.

In the beginning I didn't notice much change so I ended up cutting calories a little further to 2500 cal or so; at that time I cut out all met-con style workouts because I remembered someone suggested a link between cortisol and stubborn mid section fat. Probably someone commenting in this thread, who knows. I ended up doing a lot of walking--4 days per week for an hour to two hours at a time--which seemed to help A LOT.

I had a sticking point about a month in so for a period of about 3 weeks I went low(ish) carb, and even tried a little IF, but it was sporadic. The low carb seemed to help. Low carb seems to work short term for me, but that's about it.

By the time September 2010 had rolled around, I was down to 246--a loss of 40 lbs.

I gained back about 10 lbs over the next year, compounded by the fact that I started eating crap again (long story). But I kept the other 30 off.

I still have about 20 to drop, so I'm going to still stick with Derek's recommendations. That plus the long walks, Complexes, and running 3x per week for no more than 30 min should do it. For some reason I have really taken to running and am finding it quite enjoyable.

Derek Weaver
08-08-2011, 12:35 PM
That's great Clay. Good job.

That cut to 2500 calories was pretty steep, but you were smart to add in lots of walking, and reducing the stupid human tricks (metcons).

Low carb is great to drop a ton of water quick, and at least see some change on the scale, but the combination of long term lowered carbs and strenuous activity usually leaves people looking and feeling burnt out.

Keep us updated.

Clay Jones
08-09-2011, 08:06 PM
That's great Clay. Good job.

That cut to 2500 calories was pretty steep, but you were smart to add in lots of walking, and reducing the stupid human tricks (metcons).

Low carb is great to drop a ton of water quick, and at least see some change on the scale, but the combination of long term lowered carbs and strenuous activity usually leaves people looking and feeling burnt out.

Keep us updated.Thanks Derek, your calculations were very helpful. As I recall now I dropped the extra 500 per day (give or take) by doing IF, it wasn't so much that I made a point of cutting calories as I made a point of trying IF. I'd do IF for a day or two, then find the next day that even when I ate 3 squares i was eating less. I don't recall doing low carb at that time; probably would have been a really bad idea to combine the three. I noticed a bit of burn out at the beginning of July; I immediately stopped all long hikes and upped my carbs and the feeling went away within a week.

I'm doing a bit of unintentional IF now as I can't seem to eat before noon but my macronutrient ratios look pretty good and I am eating plenty; I'm getting plenty of fat and have added white rice back into the diet since I tolerate it very well. I'm probably eating right around 3200 cal right now. I have no intention of going back to low carb since when I do my performance and recovery tanks.

Will post an update when I drop the next 5.

John P. Walsh
01-03-2012, 07:03 AM
You won't make real progress eating so many animals products. Get on a nutrient rich diet (hint: meat is not nutrient rich) and it won't matter what you do for a workout. You will lose fat.

john arthor
01-03-2013, 07:44 PM
Calories are the main issue now days. Don't be afraid to get a calorie count for portions and then plus them in earlier. LIke you said, portion control is key. Knowing what your portions represent in relation to your metabolic rate is important.