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Bo Schmidt
11-28-2009, 07:53 AM
I'd like to couple weightlifting and powerlifting with sprint training. I've been training seriously for the past year with SS, following the CA WOD and doing CF.
Numbers:
BS - 125 kg
DL - 150 kg
BP - 80 kg
Press - 55 kg
C&J - 75 kg (clean at 90 kg)
Snatch - 62,5 kg

Age: 17
Height: 5'7
Weight: 162 with a BF around 10-12%.

I'm bored with CF, and I now have other long-term goals.
Goal 1: Getting stronger at powerlifting and weightlifting.
Goal 2: Win the school 100m and 200m sprinting competitions in August 2010.
Goal 3: Achieving a one-arm chin-up.

My suggested program outline
Seeing as I've been training for over a year, I'm about to become an intermediate, thus only allowing weekly increments instead of from workout to workout.

Strength training:
C&J and snatch and assistance exercises from the CA mainsite WOD with a frequency 3x/week (monday, wednesday, friday for simplicity).

Monday:
CA-WOD
Heavy squatting
One-arm chin-up training
Front lever

Wednesday:
CA-WOD
Bench press
Press
Dips
Back lever

Friday:
CA-WOD
Deadlift
Good Mornings
SLDL
Ab work


Sprint training:
Tuesday:
5x100m sprints full recovery

Thursday:
10x40 yards sprints full recovery



What do you think?

Alex Bond
11-28-2009, 08:31 AM
Too much volume. No way you can progress in all that stuff at once. Have you read Practical Programming or another similar resource on programming? It seems like you just picked a bunch of stuff you like to do and threw it all together into a weekly plan. And you don't make any mention of rep ranges, intensity for each day, etc. I recommend the Texas Method as the starting point for all intermediates, but it looks like right now the program you should be on is "1 rep of buying Practical Programming by Mark Rippetoe, read to failure", just so you know what you are doing.

Garrett Smith
11-28-2009, 10:14 AM
Drop the PL. All of it, except for high bar squatting. Doing OL (with back squats) will improve your PL numbers and not need much extra training. If you don't need to bench because there is no meet coming up, drop it.

Look into buying 5/3/1. Read it. Pick your two lower-body centric exercises and your two upper-body ones. Stick to those. Drop most of the rest. You absolutely must plan on a deload week 1 of every 4 weeks.

Weighted chins would be good for you to build up your raw pulling strength, without that, a OAC is a LOOOOONG way away (I know...:o ). Weighted dips will likely indirectly keep your bench moving up without much training (I'd guess), then you can bring in real benching when you have a meet coming up, maybe one or two months out.

You are doing like three whole programs worth of exercises. You need to get more efficient with your choices.

I'm not doing any sprinting right now, but I am mixing PL and OL in my training, along with gymnastics. You might have a look at my log over time and try to get an idea of volume on that. It takes a while to build up to...then again, I'm 34 and my recovery is not that of a 17-year-old...but you're set up for burnout on that plan.

Brandon Oto
11-28-2009, 10:23 AM
You're probably still in a relatively novice strength phase. Might behoove you to lift a while longer and gain some weight.

If you really want to mix and match everything under the sun, I have some concepts to play with here -- http://agt.degreesofclarity.com/ . But remember we've all only got so much coin to spend.

Speaking for myself, I did pretty well for a while with two days of lifting a week plus two days of sprinting. The lifting was two major lifts, one upper and one lower (say, squats and weighted dips), 3x5 or whatever pleases you, plus one or more accessory lifts (higher reps, frequently dumbbells, attempt to progress but zero worry, just bang 'em out and go home). Sprints were mostly short conditioning intervals, such as reverse Tabata (10 seconds sprint, 20 seconds rest) or 100m sprint down/walk back for 6-10 reps (I liked these in "flying" fashion, starting slow and gradually accelerating to max speed for a couple seconds in the middle, then gradually slowing by the end; less stress and more sustainable than trying to explode out a full 100 at max effort).

Just some notions.

Bo Schmidt
11-29-2009, 10:42 AM
Thanks for your quick replies. I've taken things to heart and this has lead to further questions:

I read the 5/3/1 book by Jim Wedler. It's awesome and I'll definitely use its concepts. I was thinking of doing a program like The Triumvirate:

Monday:
Military - 5/3/1
Dips - 5x15
Chin-ups - weighted 3x5

Tuesday:
Deadlift - 5/3/1
Good Mornings - 5x12
Hanging Leg Raises - 5x15

Thursday:
Bench Press - 5/3/1
DB Bench Press - 5x15
OAC negatives

Saturday:
Squat - 5/3/1
Lunges - 5x15 each leg
Leg Curl - 5x10


On top of this Jim Wendler recommends doing hill sprints/prowler 3-4 times/week. Instead of doing these I'd be training the 100m and 200m sprinting events. Any idea for how to train optimally for these 2 events?

How can this be incoorporated with the CA WOD? Should the o-lifts from the CA WOD be done instead of the assistance work?

Is my current workload for achieving the OAC enough?

Gavin Harrison
11-29-2009, 10:54 AM
Bo,

To add o-lifts he recommends adding power cleans before squats or deads with 5/3/1 rep scheme.

Brian DeGennaro
11-29-2009, 11:58 AM
Bo, are your goals in that said order? I can provide a lot of feedback because I'm 19 and was a sprinter and threw some weights around for fun around your age, and now I lift full time.

First off, yeah, I know you think you are invincible, and yeah, you can handle a shitton of work because you are a teen and can get away with almost anything, but it is not the smartest thing to do. Break things up into a nice spread out program, with lower volume. Also, stick with something. I remember, I was antsy and would change shit around day to day, week to week. Keep it simple, deadlift, squat and some sort of press or weighted dip/pullup. Throw in some low volume cleans/snatches for speed and power work.

Second, get stronger. Being young is the best time to get as strong as you can be. If your strength to weight ratio stays the same and you get your deadlift and squat through the roof, I guarantee you will be faster. Also, with the cleans and snatches, be FAST, move as quickly as you can.

Third, be patient. Make weekly and monthly goals to try to achieve, lots of them. I remember I was so antsy about hitting my big goals I would forgo anything little and rush headstrong at the big ones and then get stuck or never make the goals. Baby steps.

Alex Bond
11-29-2009, 12:22 PM
And if it hasn't been made clear yet, you cannot combine the CA WoDs with 5/3/1 or any other powerlifting plan. Cannot. Pick one or the other, and you should be able to do a little sprinting on top of that. 5/3/1 is good, but you might be enough of a novice that you could make faster progress than in 5/3/1 with the Texas Method or even workout to workout linear progression as in Starting Strength.

For now, I recommend you focus on the powerlifting stuff with more front squatting than most powerlifters do. If you put 100# on your front squat, your oly lifts will go up too. Snatch once a week so you don't forget how, and get strong. Brian has been where you are at, so listen to him.

Scott Kustes
11-29-2009, 12:39 PM
You probably don't need me to reiterate this, but I will anyway....too much volume. :-D

As for sprint training, 5x100 and 10x40 isn't going to do a whole lot for you to progress. It's not long enough for 200m training and for the most part it's too long to be "speed" training.

For now, get stronger as others have said. Catalyst, 5/3/1, SS...pick one and run with it. Phase lifting out and sprinting in as you get closer to your competition.

Bo Schmidt
11-29-2009, 12:56 PM
Thanks for your replies.

It's nice to hear you've been through it yourself, Brian. So I should focus on getting as strong as possible right now, throwing in some snatches/C&J for speed work. I should do low volume. What do you think about the following routine regarding is low volume and strength focus?

Monday:
Military - 5/3/1
Dips - 5x15
Chin-ups - weighted 3x5

Tuesday:
Deadlift - 5/3/1
Good Mornings - 5x12
Hanging Leg Raises - 5x15

Thursday:
Bench Press - 5/3/1
DB Bench Press - 5x15
OAC negatives

Saturday:
Squat - 5/3/1
Lunges - 5x15 each leg
Leg Curl - 5x10


How should cleans/snatches be worked into that schedule and with what set/rep-range?

Will I get my OAC this way?

I can let go of sprint training if that's too much work. When should I add my sprint training for the competition in August 2010 and how should it be organized?

Should I do some form of conditioning work?

Brian DeGennaro
11-29-2009, 01:19 PM
Five sets of 12 is a lot for good mornings. Keep it simple.

Deadlift and press/dip one day, squat and chins another day. "Warmup" with some snatching/cleaning for speed and power (this is most important, do not be slow with them), don't worry about weights, just gradually add some each week, keep reps between 1-2. Sprint once a week to keep it fresh, preferably on a day you don't lift. Alternate speed work (10m-50m) and 200m training (200m and 150m repeats, and maybe a 300m for shits and giggles every now and then).

You aren't strong enough to worry about accessory exercises.

Bo Schmidt
11-30-2009, 12:14 PM
That sounds good, could you maybe write it like an outline with what to do on monday, tuesday etc.?

Garrett Smith
11-30-2009, 02:29 PM
Will I get my OAC this way?
If you're willing to wait several years on that program, maybe. Twice a week training on them may not ever be enough, and your youthful exuberance for wanting to do everything in your training could quickly end up in epicondylitis from pullup work (as in, the first part to break down under too much training stress).

I can let go of sprint training if that's too much work. When should I add my sprint training for the competition in August 2010 and how should it be organized?
This is a better question for others to answer directly, but I would say the biggest payoff for your sprint speed right now would be to get your DL and OLs up, then ease into some sprint training 2-3 months out, subbing out lifting for sprinting gradually as the meet approaches.

Should I do some form of conditioning work?
No, IMO. Not unless you get on some ANACONDA, bro.

Bo Schmidt
11-30-2009, 02:46 PM
Garret; what about doing the 5/3/1 Jim Wendler program (i.e. 4 training days) with weighted chin-ups 3x/week?

Scott Kustes
11-30-2009, 03:25 PM
Bo, what kind of time do you need to run in the 100m/200m at your school contest? What are you running now? That's a key factor in how much training you're going to need.

Bo Schmidt
11-30-2009, 04:04 PM
Scott:

For the 100m I'd like to get to around 11.0-11.5s. I'm approx. at 13.0s right now--I'd guess a little faster than this, since this was recorded 4 months ago and my squat and DL has improved since, and I had trained 3 days up to the event (this wasn't a serious event, as you can see).

For the 200m I'd like to get 22.0-23.0s.

Garrett Smith
11-30-2009, 04:37 PM
Bo.

Look at your goals. PL, OL, OAC, sprinting. Prioritize. Minimize.

Let's say, for example...you do 5/3/1 for:

Front Squat
Bench Press
Weighted Chins
Deadlift

Throw in some accessory work on what you want to improve:

OL technique work
Wendler's suggested 50 or 100 reps of BW chins in total
Sprint form drills

Build (or don't) from there. Do some S.M.A.R.T. goalsetting (Google it).

Start small, you can always build up. Start too big, you'll burn out...yet never really know why. The following isn't meant to be derogatory--you are 17--you are going to be a "beginner" for several more years no matter what programming you've done at this point.

Brian DeGennaro
11-30-2009, 04:49 PM
I would do something nice and simple like this (these are not consecutive days):

Day 1
Snatch 3x1-3 reps
Squat 3x5
Weighted Chinup 3x5
Ab work

Day 2
Clean 3x1-3 reps
Deadlift 2x5
Weighted Dip or Bench/Overhead Press 3x5
Ab Work

Alex Bond
12-01-2009, 01:07 AM
I would do something nice and simple like this (these are not consecutive days):

Day 1
Snatch 3x1-3 reps
Squat 3x5
Weighted Chinup 3x5
Ab work

Day 2
Clean 3x1-3 reps
Deadlift 2x5
Weighted Dip or Bench/Overhead Press 3x5
Ab Work

This is a great plan, maybe do it alternating days M-W-F with some sprinting Saturday and make some linear progression on the lifts? Brian's got the right idea here, I really second the recommendation.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-01-2009, 07:27 AM
Bo,
Everyone is giving you great advice, please listen. It's best to be simple as Brian has suggested and Scott knows his stuff on sprinting.

My silly sport is the equivalent of sprinting, but my feet don't move much. My weight training is very similar to OL/PL as I do those movements as part of my gym training. I seperate my event days as my CNS cannot handle doing both on the same days.

My current (off season) program is as follows:
Day 1 - a.m. power snatch, OHS, Back Squat, Snatch Pulls, 4 board press and abs: p.m. kettlebell conditioning (two handed swings)
Day 2 - Event work
Day 3 - a.m. power cleans, push press, front squat, clean pulls, 2 board/floor press, and abs: p.m. kettlebell conditioning (one arm long cycle clean and jerk)
Day 4 - Event work
Day 5 or 6 rest or a.m. full snatch, clean and jerk, back squat, deadlifts, ring push ups and abs: p.m. kettlebell conditioning (one handed swings)
Day 7 - Event work or rest.

Because I am currently off season, my gym work work load is a bit absurd. And my event work is lower volume and lower intensity (working more on technical issues to try and improve performance at this stage). As the season gets closer, my gym volume lowers and my event work increases in both volume and intensity (I make myself race ready).

Now, I am more than twice your age and with over 25 years of serious strength training under my belt (did my first bench meet when I was 14, push pull meet when I was 16). And my off season volume is high (80 to 100 reps per session at 75%+), but nothing compared to what you've contemplated in some of your initial thoughts. Be patient. It takes time to acclimate and improve. You do that and you'll go a long way. And don't forget to back off every third week or so as you're body needs down time to repair. I did NOT do that until a few years ago and I kept on getting hurt every time I got to a certain level. Now that I've backed off regularly (both event volume/intensity and weight room volume/intensity), I've made more continual progress in two years than i did in the previous 20.

Good luck and enjoy. The folk that are responding to this are giving you great advice. Brian's program looks great. I wrote what I do above to give you an idea of how my coach keeps my CNS fresh and my absolute/dynamic strength improving and evolving.

I hope this helps a bit?

All the best,
Arden

Brian DeGennaro
12-01-2009, 07:35 AM
Also, Bo, keep in mind that Arden has incredibly high lifting numbers as a result, he will burn out much faster than you if he put in much higher intensity.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-01-2009, 09:47 AM
Also, Bo, keep in mind that Arden has incredibly high lifting numbers as a result, he will burn out much faster than you if he put in much higher intensity.

Thanks Brian. And I'm older. Middle aged training must be a lot more thought out than younger training. Sounds a bit rudimentary, but there's a lot of truth to it.

One other point to add, if you ever feel tired and listless, there is no crime in missing a day. I've found great solace in taking an extra day to recover then resuming my next day's training. I've found myself invigorated and raring to go after an extra rest day.

That may not be a big an issue given your age, but something to keep in mind if you're body feels beat up after a bit.

Well, to be frank, there's one other point. In addition to taking that extra rest day, don't be afraid to "festive feed" to help yourself recover as well. I CANNOT do that at this stage of my life as I once did during my youth. Instead, I now imbibe in a "festive meal" followed by late afternoon nap (if it's a weekend).

Oh, the joys of aging. I Love every second of it.

All the best,
Arden

Bo Schmidt
12-01-2009, 11:24 AM
Thank you so much for replying. I'll definitely use everything you've said. Having ones ego prevent succesful training is something I'd like to avoid. Thanks again!

Brian Baggetta
12-01-2009, 12:38 PM
I think the lifting stuff has been covered very well, and you should definitely take it all to heart, which it seems like you have. Just pick a real program (5-3-1, CA, Texas, SS, whatever) and stick with it.

I would add a small note of dissent, though, and say you shouldn't bag sprinting entirely for a period if it's one of the things you want to improve. You can become pretty de-trained/lose your movement efficiency at sprinting if you *never* do it. You don't have to do much, but do get out and sprint. I would recommend once a week -- it's enough to keep the movement pattern ingrained, but not so much that it will screw with your lifts. Check out this w/f/s article for ideas: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/speedtraining.html

And I wouldn't mess with Tabatas or the "walk back to recover" method (unless you're walking REALLY f'ing slow). Those protocols are geared more toward improving conditioning than speed, and if you're looking to improve your 100m time by 1.5-2 seconds, they likely won't get you there. Concentrate on short distances, with full recovery (at least one minute per 10m sprinted).

Good luck.

Alex Bond
12-01-2009, 02:34 PM
I think the lifting stuff has been covered very well, and you should definitely take it all to heart, which it seems like you have. Just pick a real program (5-3-1, CA, Texas, SS, whatever) and stick with it.

I would add a small note of dissent, though, and say you shouldn't bag sprinting entirely for a period if it's one of the things you want to improve. You can become pretty de-trained/lose your movement efficiency at sprinting if you *never* do it. You don't have to do much, but do get out and sprint. I would recommend once a week -- it's enough to keep the movement pattern ingrained, but not so much that it will screw with your lifts. Check out this w/f/s article for ideas: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/speedtraining.html

And I wouldn't mess with Tabatas or the "walk back to recover" method (unless you're walking REALLY f'ing slow). Those protocols are geared more toward improving conditioning than speed, and if you're looking to improve your 100m time by 1.5-2 seconds, they likely won't get you there. Concentrate on short distances, with full recovery (at least one minute per 10m sprinted).

Good luck.

A quote from that article which the thread starter should take to heart:

With the popularization of conjugate training there are many athletes who think they need to be addressing everything they can all of the time in any given mesocycle. Therefore they’re always lifting with the volume that would oftentimes kill a powerlifter and sprinting with the volume that would challenge a professional sprinter. What these people need to realize is you can't always focus on everything all of the time. There is often a delayed training effect for a given regime of work. For example, heavy strength work is necessary. It sets the foundation for everything and makes you stronger. But it is also fatiguing on both the nervous and muscular system and thus, it often takes recovery time to really see the benefits of strength work. It's difficult to run your fastest during the middle of a highly intense concentrated strength phase because your neuromuscular system will simple be too fatigued. Along the same lines, a surefire way to kill the effectiveness of a strength phase is to do too much specific work like running. Likewise, one of the quickest ways to kill the effectiveness of an explosive oriented phase is to drain the hell out of yourself with too much strength work. A better approach is to alternate the “focus” of your training. Work on building up your strength for a while while you maintain your speed. Then work on “maintaining” your strength while you focus on your speed.

Garrett Smith
12-01-2009, 04:02 PM
The last three sentences of that Baggett quote are the most important.

For example, in my training year, OL meets dominate the first half, PL dominates the second half. Highland Games get thrown in for fun here and there, I don't really train specifically for them (yet). Two days of gymnastics strength training is always in there, I recently completely gutted the program I was doing to emphasize handstands and weighted chins/dips. After I get strong enough and decide on a meet (and probably sacrifice going to an OL meet or two), I'll get some sound advice on how to work in some training for running a 100m & 400m in a meet.

Changing the focus is actually what keeps me interested, it allows for a more focused approach to my output and especially my programming.