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Steve Romer
12-01-2009, 07:59 PM
without warning at the CrossFit forum for talking about the Robb Wolf firing. I obeyed all the rules but talking about the Robb Wolf firing cause my thread asking; "Which is better the Modern Diet with Zoning or the Paleo Diet without Zoning?" was banned. I was not given a reason for the banning it is just banned.

They can't even handle a diet discussion. Well they just lost me. I will never pay for a CrossFit Cert because they can't simple discussion of diets. Also, I will never join a Gym because they are a CrossFit Affiliate. I no longer see that Affiliation as a badge of honor. I no longer care about the CrossFit games; because I no longer believe those games are for the good of community, but rather they are just a highly profitable marketing tool for CFHQ.

Also, I am businessman and the Robb Wolf firing caused me to look at the Affiliate model of CrossFit and I do not see upside of being a CrossFit Affiliate. It is way too easy to become an Affiliate with no quality control. There are many more poorly run affiliates than well run ones. If this isn’t corrected soon all of the affiliates will harmed by disgusted clients of the poorly run affiliates.

With the explosion of affiliates, the affiliate’s ability to earn a reasonable wage will become harder and harder. Only people who benefit from the affiliate model as practiced by CFHQ is CFHQ. It seems to me the affiliate’s sole purpose is to funnel money into CFHQ.

All these facts sadden me, because CrossFit had the promise to be something special in this world. Greed has ruined that promise and that is sad for all of us gave a damn just a few short days ago. I believe CFHQ will remain highly profitable because too many of Kool-Ade drinkers do not question CFHQ’s actions. Too many the people applying for Affiliation believe Affiliation is quick and easy path to becoming well paid fitness coach and CFHQ is feeding those expectations.

I thought if enough of us, the customers of CrossFit, spoke loud enough and long enough we could get CFHQ listen to us. I was wrong. The Business of CrossFit will survive for a long time; however CrossFit as the special place to test new theories for obtaining peak fitness died at the BlackBox Summit.

Hey I am new here so thanks for allowing me get this off my chest.

Donald Lee
12-01-2009, 09:36 PM
Steve,

I think one of CrossFit's greatest marketing tools is its appeal to being contrarian. This works well when there is so much misinformation in the media, magazines, and internet. Because they appeal to being contrarian, they end up building a following of kool-aid drinkers who end up thinking CrossFit is the measuring stick of all things fitness, sport, nutrition, and health-related.

They tell you that education does not matter. They tell you that exercise science is a pseudoscience, yet they are quick to cite studies when they supports their views. They used to tell you that CrossFit could be implemented into almost every athlete's training program, yet that stance began to evolve as this proved to be untrue. Many see CrossFit's evolution as a positive, but I see it as another marketing ploy. CrossFit's generalized metabolic conditioning has proved not to be the holy grail of fitness, so they began embracing many different things out there (i.e., bringing people from various areas to run certs and write journal articles). They want to become the source of all fitness-related information, yet their constant changing of stances with the changing tides indicates that they don't know what's right in the first place. This is where the lack of education in anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, sport science, nutrition, etc. comes to light. Even Robb Wolf seems to have come to realize the importance of educating yourself in these areas. You can get away with not knowing this stuff when you've built your following in the way CrossFit has. Training for true elite fitness or elite athletics requires much more sophistication than CrossFit would like to acknowledge. They love to criticize exercise science because it allows them to ignore it. The breadth of good information in exercise science is actually pretty large, and thankfully, many coaches who are training Olympic athletes are not ignorant of it.

I don't agree with much of the stuff that people like Dave Tate, Louie Simmons, Dan John, etc. put out there, but at least they don't claim to know everything or overstep their bounds.

If you'd like to know what people's stuff I read now, I read Joel Jameson's stuff at www.8weeksout.com, Lyle McDonald's stuff at www.bodyrecomposition.com, Alan Aragon's stuff at www.alanaragon.com, and Martin Berkhan's stuff at www.leangains.blogspot.com.

Steven Splisk's stuff at www.excelsiorsports.blogspot.com is good, too, but it's mostly advanced sciencey stuff. I'm thinking about reading James Krieger's stuff at www.thebsdetective.com as well.

Also, CrossFit was never really testing new theories. They just wanted you to think whatever they were trying or doing was something new and great.

Glad to vent with you.

Steve Romer
12-01-2009, 09:50 PM
Donald

Thanks for the links and venting with me.:).

Also, how does one find a good coach for Olympic lifting? I don't trust CrossFit Affiliates to train me in those lifts but I feel they are important to learn. When google it I don't find any local coaches in South Jersey. Maybe I am not asking the right search question.

Gavin Harrison
12-01-2009, 11:22 PM
I don't agree with much of the stuff that people like Dave Tate, Louie Simmons, Dan John, etc. put out there, but at least they don't claim to know everything or overstep their bounds.

Huh?? You point out three people who have competed (well) at the world level, and have coached/produced elite level athletes in various sports, one of whom's methods revolutionized strength training in general... and you don't agree with them?

Steven Low
12-01-2009, 11:35 PM
If you noticed, your name is probably now blue.

This means that your comments are in moderation before you post because you were supposedly inflammatory before. So... basically if they don't like your posts they'll just delete them from being posted before they post them.

Sucks. -_-

Kevin Perry
12-02-2009, 12:30 AM
Well after reading this post and irongarm now I know why my name is highlighted blue. I wasn't even that mean to people on there, I guess Lynne ddidnt like that Gestapo comment. She probably wouldn't like what else I havnt said about her yet.

Doug Blankenship
12-02-2009, 06:03 AM
Steve didn't you know you're not supposed to question anything that CF says or does? (All jokes aside) They're not open to constructive criticism nor do they want to hear about anything that could possibly hold them in a negative light.

Darryl Shaw
12-02-2009, 06:08 AM
If you noticed, your name is probably now blue.

This means that your comments are in moderation before you post because you were supposedly inflammatory before. So... basically if they don't like your posts they'll just delete them from being posted before they post them.

Sucks. -_-

Are they supposed to highlight your name before doing any of that? Is it meant to be a warning of some kind, kind of like "careful what you say because we're watching you."?

The reason I ask is because my name has never been highlighted in blue yet I've had a number of posts deleted from the CF boards without any warning or explanation and I've noticed on a few occasions that links get deleted from my posts despite my slightly neurotic adherence to that silly "wfs" rule. :confused:

Mike ODonnell
12-02-2009, 07:25 AM
Welcome to the dark side.....our mixers are so much more fun.

Darryl, I'm sure it is only a matter of time with your questions for Dr Sears in the forums....

Kevin Perry
12-02-2009, 08:32 AM
Are they supposed to highlight your name before doing any of that? Is it meant to be a warning of some kind, kind of like "careful what you say because we're watching you."?

The reason I ask is because my name has never been highlighted in blue yet I've had a number of posts deleted from the CF boards without any warning or explanation and I've noticed on a few occasions that links get deleted from my posts despite my slightly neurotic adherence to that silly "wfs" rule. :confused:

They're watching you....

Gavin Harrison
12-02-2009, 09:28 AM
Lynn Pitts = CFHQ lacky? Seems that way. I didn't realize until this whole blowup that CF is actually very closed minded. Before I thought they wanted to improve human performance (in a somewhat limited domain), but now I don't. They probably never were interested, given their obvious disdain for anything 'non-functional'... and specialists...

Steven Low
12-02-2009, 09:46 AM
Darryl,

They're watching you specifically I guess.

For everyone with a blue name like Brandon Oto that doesn't have affiliate under their name their posts going into moderation view and are only posted when approved. If you're too inflammatory you get plopped into that category.

Actually, I think that's the category they put George Mounce in as the first person, but they didn't know the moderated group had access to the mod boards. So he basically took screenshots and then he got banned permanently.

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 09:51 AM
BTW I have no problem with CFHQ hiring Barry Sears to be the Nutrition Guru, but I do think they need to make a public announcement and publicly offer money back w/o any questions to those who do not want to pay to see Sears. That would be the honest and fair thing to do. It is the pretending nothing happen last weekend by CFHQ that troubles many of us in this community. It is the firing of Robb Wolf with no justification that troubles many of us in this community. It is the reported unprofessional behavior of Dave Castro that troubles many of us in this community. If CFHQ would make a public statement with the offer of refunds w/o question that would help many understand CFHQ cares about this community and not just about profits.

Those were my last freely spoken words at CF forum. I guess I was too honest for CFHQ.:rolleyes:

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 10:03 AM
Darryl

On your CF Thread Questions for Barry Sears

I submitted the question:

Is the modern diet with zoning better than the paleo diet w/o zoning?

It will be interesting to see whether they allow it to be seen, because that is the thread I tried to start and they blocked it.

Scott Dyck
12-02-2009, 10:38 AM
I apologize if I got your Sears nutrition guru thread closed. I had just finished reading another Barry Cooper experiment in attention-whoring narcissism on Robb Wolf's blog and didn't have anything sharp to stab into my eyes, so I had to vent a very, very little bit. I didn't say anything bad at all but the thread was closed a few minutes later.

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 10:53 AM
I apologize if I got your Sears nutrition guru thread closed. I had just finished reading another Barry Cooper experiment in attention-whoring narcissism on Robb Wolf's blog and didn't have anything sharp to stab into my eyes, so I had to vent a very, very little bit. I didn't say anything bad at all but the thread was closed a few minutes later.

Nothing to be sorry about you didn't do anything wrong. None of us violated any of the posted rules and the conversation was always civil.

CFHQ is just not honest group and are hoping this will blow over so they can get back making a ton of money. As money making machine I think they will survive for a long time, but as place for developing best fitness program they are dead.
They are no better LA fitness at this point.

Renee Lee
12-02-2009, 11:00 AM
God forbid I get called an apologist again, but you need to give the mods a bit of a break. I've met a number of the mods, including Lynne, and they're solid people with good intentions.

Are they trigger happy right now because of recent events? Probably. Should you blame them? No.

OP, as legit as your post/question may have been...on the surface it could be seen as a yet another attempt at discussing what they've already said can't be discussed on the boards. Even if that wasn't your intent, other board members would have turned it into that.

Do I think they should have jumped as quickly as they did to stop the Castro/Robb Wolf thread? No...I think civil conversation/discussion was possible (as evidenced by the GreySkull thread and the Ripp leaving threads), but that was their judgment call to make.

They recently tried to fix that "mistake" by letting a thread through that only superficially referred to the fallout (check "request" in the Community Forum). As suspected, it only lasted four pages before somebody did something stupid. They gave us a shot and the igx troll blew it.

/$.02

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 11:38 AM
God forbid I get called an apologist again, but you need to give the mods a bit of a break. I've met a number of the mods, including Lynne, and they're solid people with good intentions.

Are they trigger happy right now because of recent events? Probably. Should you blame them? No.

OP, as legit as your post/question may have been...on the surface it could be seen as a yet another attempt at discussing what they've already said can't be discussed on the boards. Even if that wasn't your intent, other board members would have turned it into that.

Do I think they should have jumped as quickly as they did to stop the Castro/Robb Wolf thread? No...I think civil conversation/discussion was possible (as evidenced by the GreySkull thread and the Ripp leaving threads), but that was their judgment call to make.

They recently tried to fix that "mistake" by letting a thread through that only superficially referred to the fallout (check "request" in the Community Forum). As suspected, it only lasted four pages before somebody did something stupid. They gave us a shot and the igx troll blew it.

/$.02


Actually I do blame them blame for being trigger happy. None of the rules were violated in any of the posts I saw that were closed, but you saw one. Well I read the thread I didn't see one troll posting. Not one rules violation. No uncivil behavoir and not one.

I not did violate any of the rules and some of my words are now being banned. If criticism CFHQ is reason to ban someone then put it the rules. Then at least they are being honest about not being an open forum for improvement of the CrossFit methodology.

CFHQ is proving they care more about profits than being an open forum for developing the best fitness program. That is the truth and CFHQ actions are proving that truth.

Scott Dyck
12-02-2009, 11:51 AM
It SEEMED like they were going to let a discussion go on until it got "uncivil," but that's not the issue at all.
It wasn't a violation that got that thread closed, it was "@fit" and "couch." If he hadn't done that, it probably would have gone on longer. The overtly fellating OP was being just as much of an instigator as anyone else, he just happened to have an opinion they want to hear right now.
Basically they censored him for being an IGX'er, since he was dumb enough to tip his hand. Amateurish trolling.

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 12:00 PM
What is an IGX'er?

Renee Lee
12-02-2009, 12:02 PM
Actually I do blame them blame for being trigger happy. None of the rules were violated in any of the posts I saw that were closed, but you saw one. Well I read the thread I didn't see one troll posting. Not one rules violation. No uncivil behavoir and not one.

You either missed them, or they've been deleted. Hold on.

From the "request" thread, which the mods had on a very short leash:

Not to mention, both of these guys have ties to Crossfit dating back to before most of the current HQ team were even associated with @F (apart from Couch).


You don't think that using jargon from igx is disrespectful, inflammatory and bordering on uncivil?

There was NOT anything inflammatory in the original thread ( "The Black box seminar..." on page 2 in the Community forum), but again...that was their call and where i disagree.

When I saw the thread you started, "I hear Sears is the new Nutritional Guru," I read a lot of snark from you...I'm not surprised that the mods found it inflammatory...plus that one devolved into Scott calling Barry Cooper the resident windbag.

Anyway, I think you expect the main CF Boards to tolerate a lot more shit than they've ever been willing to accept. Put borderline snarkiness on top of a topic they're tired of dealing with/moderating and you've got yourself pseudo-banned.



PS, Greg, Steven and others, I'm sorry that nitpicking over semantics has been my introduction to this forum...It wasn't my intention.

Scott Dyck
12-02-2009, 12:58 PM
I didn't call him a windbag by name, at least. If I hadn't outed myself here most people wouldn't have known who I was talking about, probably.
It's the inconsistency, Renee. Barry wrote the book on snarky, incendiary, and disrespectful. I mean, he probably literally wrote a book on it. But since he's a staunch defender of teh couch, it's permitted.

Renee Lee
12-02-2009, 01:04 PM
I didn't call him a windbag by name, at least. If I hadn't outed myself here most people wouldn't have known who I was talking about, probably.
It's the inconsistency, Renee. Barry wrote the book on snarky, incendiary, and disrespectful. I mean, he probably literally wrote a book on it. But since he's a staunch defender of teh couch, it's permitted.

Hah.

Actually, Scott...I assumed it was Barry before I even saw your post here. (Mainly because I agree, lol) I'm sure it was obvious to most regulars. ;)

He absolutely is snarky, but I don't think his stance is why his posts are permitted.

Garrett Smith
12-02-2009, 01:42 PM
http://rickross.com/faq.html

Can some multi-level-marketing and commercial schemes be seen as somewhat cultic?

Yes, some commercially motivated groups stress total commitment, avoid answering critical questions and seem to employ "cult like" manipulative techniques to achieve what can be seen as undue influence. Though most lack the intense focus upon a central leader like a classic cult, I have received repeated complaints about alleged abuse within some commercial groups.

--

What kind of relationship do destructive group leaders have with their followers?

The leadership most often defines what is right and wrong and group followers are essentially expected to defer making meaningful value judgments regarding almost any issue of significant importance. And any member of the group who questions or doubts the authority of the leader is likely to be labeled wrong, rebellious, suppressive, negative and in some situations even "demon possessed" or "satanic".

No area of a member or follower's life appears to be immune from such a group's scrutiny and/or criticism. A kind of learned dependency often develops. Group followers appear highly dependent upon their leaders to resolve problems and provide them with an ongoing sense of clarity and purpose.

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 01:43 PM
Renee

I didn't know snark was a rules violation and if that is the case many more people should be banned at the CF forums.

I agree CFHQ have the right to ban anyone they want to ban including me, but by banning people whose only sin asking tough asking about the actions of CFHQ tells us they are not interested finding the best path to fitness.

Mike ODonnell
12-02-2009, 03:51 PM
the resident windbag.

I guess that is my title around here by post #s? Damnit.

Edit...Nope, just saw Dr G has more than me.....sorry G.....

George Mounce
12-02-2009, 05:58 PM
Bah, you aren't anyone on the CF forums until your name is in red. :rolleyes: (Even after 3000+ posts helping hundreds of people). At least they allow my IP again, that was banned for about 6 months as well, and I'm allowed to post in the daily comments (of course under many aliases - and no CF spies you won't see them here).

By the way OP, did you even read Gant's reply?

Just because someone show's up on a CF anything doesn't mean they are into the whole aspect.

Dave Tate is well respected, and until you put what he has on your back, I think you might want to realize that just because someone is on a CF video and gives feedback, it doesn't mean they buy into CF marketing philosophy. Dave Tate makes strong people animals. So does Rip and quite a few others.

Whether someone associates themselves with CF is up to them alone. I for one wouldn't say a bad word at all about Greg or Robb, they both provide excellent information (was even happy to see Greg's book in my Ironmind catalogue I got a couple days ago) and both have been associated with CF for quite some time. Doesn't change my mind about them one bit.

Clay Jones
12-02-2009, 07:48 PM
PS, Greg, Steven and others, I'm sorry that nitpicking over semantics has been my introduction to this forum...It wasn't my intention.Hey, some of us grammarians appreciate a little nitpickiness now and then. :D

Sadly, it seems the CF board has taken a turn for the worse over the past few years--It used to be a much more collegial place to post, the mods were a little less hair trigger, and the quality of post was a bit higher. Really, when David Wood was moderating things seemed to run pretty smoothly. It is really different, now, tho I will give the mods some credit for keeping it civil.

The IGX trolling does have a tendency to shut threads down, tho. Not surprising.

I always wondered why posters would have "personal info: N/A" posted in their profile. Now I know.

Patrick Donnelly
12-02-2009, 08:06 PM
Some of my words have been banned without warning at the CrossFit forum for talking about the Robb Wolf firing...
No shit! What the hell did you expect? It's clear the mods there have their panties all up in a bunch over this, yet you and others keep bringing the topic up. Of course it's going to piss them of even more. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just that you need to take a moment to use that brain of yours if you think the CrossFit forums are the place to do it. Honestly, the moderators read these boards too, and they'll punish you there for stuff you say here, and they sure as hell read IronGarm. They're not the "CF.com Mods" - they're "the Mods." If you really want to discuss this with people in a sensible manner, go and talk with your local affiliate gym owners. I'm sure they'll have tons to say on the topic and you might even be able to slowly turn some of them towards abandoning the CrossFit name like Greyskull or really pushing for change from CFHQ (most likely by threatening to unaffiliate in droves, as only threats to CFHQ's money are actually threats to CFHQ) - whichever you what you want to see happen.

Bah, you aren't anyone on the CF forums until your name is in red. :rolleyes:
Yeah. They gave you a waaaaaaaay more awesome title than me.



I can't even imagine all the shit Greg is getting for letting these topics go on in his forums.

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 08:08 PM
The IGX trolling does have a tendency to shut threads down, tho. Not surprising.


What is IGX trolling?

Clay Jones
12-02-2009, 08:10 PM
What is IGX trolling?Guys on the IronGarm forum registering on CF for the express purpose of trolling the forums. See the "couch" thread on IronGarm to to get a sense of why they do it. Better yet, I can tell you why: They have nothing better to do.

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 08:21 PM
No shit! What the hell did you expect?

I not sure what I expected, but hoped the uproar from the CrossFit Community would help CFHQ see thier error in judgement in the Robb Wolf firing or at least make Public Statgement with an offer of a no questions asked refund for those no longer wanted to attend the Nutrition Cert. That is what I expected because that is what an Honest Business would do. I know I run an honest business.

Punish me more than they all ready are? What are they going to do call the CrossFit Police to arrest me? :rolleyes:

Kevin Perry
12-02-2009, 08:23 PM
I not sure what I expected, but hoped the uproar from the CrossFit Community would help CFHQ see thier error in judgement in the Robb Wolf firing or at least make Public Statgement with an offer of a no questions asked refund for those no longer wanted to attend the Nutrition Cert. That is what I expected because that is what an Honest Business would do. I know I run an honest business.

Punish me more than they all ready are? What are they going to do call the CrossFit Police to arrest me? :rolleyes:

The Sheep have drinken so much kool-aid that everything CFHQ say's is like the gospel and anything other than that is blasphemy. Did you see how many people got on their knees for the mods over there in support of blocking any civil discussion concerning who would be hosting the nutrition certs?

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 08:35 PM
Guys on the IronGarm forum registering on CF for the express purpose of trolling the forums. See the "couch" thread on IronGarm to to get a sense of why they do it. Better yet, I can tell you why: They have nothing better to do.

Wow I just checked out that thread and now get it the IGX thingie. Thanks.

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 08:42 PM
The Sheep have drinken so much kool-aid that everything CFHQ say's is like the gospel and anything other than that is blasphemy. Did you see how many people got on their knees for the mods over there in support of blocking any civil discussion concerning who would be hosting the nutrition certs?

Yep and by blocking us free thinkers the only voices you can hear now are the sheep or the few free thinkers not caught yet.

The worst part for me is I love the idea of CrossFit, but I feel CFHQ is killing the idea of CrossFit for the sake of max profits. This is a very sad time for me.

Kevin Perry
12-02-2009, 08:52 PM
Yep and by blocking us free thinkers the only voices you can hear now are the sheep or the few free thinkers not caught yet.

The worst part for me is I love the idea of CrossFit, but I feel CFHQ is killing the idea of CrossFit for the sake of max profits. This is a very sad time for me.

The best thing to do is ignore it and use what you know to get to the goals you want to achieve. It's already been stated that Rob is better off without HQ anyways, and Greg is too badass to give a shit what HQ thinks. It's silly when people get all up in arms over the forums and over what a bunch of "forums mods" think anyways. I enjoy the endless entertainment it gives me though.

Donald Lee
12-02-2009, 08:52 PM
Yep and by blocking us free thinkers the only voices you can hear now are the sheep or the few free thinkers not caught yet.

The worst part for me is I love the idea of CrossFit, but I feel CFHQ is killing the idea of CrossFit for the sake of max profits. This is a very sad time for me.

You'll get over it. Everybody does. Think of it as liberation. Take the time to expand your horizons.

Patrick Donnelly
12-02-2009, 09:19 PM
Guys on the IronGarm forum registering on CF for the express purpose of trolling the forums. See the "couch" thread on IronGarm to to get a sense of why they do it. Better yet, I can tell you why: They have nothing better to do.
Honestly, I don't think there's very much of that on the forums. I've never done it personally. It's normally pretty obvious when someone is just a troll, since they'll only have a handful of posts and they'll be stirring shit in every one of them. No one's going to put together a whole alter-ego just to take the occasional jab at CrossFit (remember: do too much, then you'd be banned anyway).

When Travis Earp over there recently got a thread closed by referring to Glassman as "Couch" (http://www.board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=704334&postcount=45), if you look at his other posts (http://www.board.crossfit.com/search.php?searchid=3987651), and you see that a lot of them snide, you can still know he's not an IGx troll. He has nearly a year on the forums, had a workout log for a good while, and a decent number of "nice" posts. Most of what he says is along the lines of stuff you'd here from many of us here - "Just get off the web and lift. Eat more meat. Lifting, not 'MetCon' makes you stronger." etc.

When you see comments over on the CrossFit boards that you don't like, don't instantly assume "Oh, it's just some IGx troll with no life" because you feel as if no one aside from some scum-of-the-Earth IGx'er could not think the best of CrossFit. That's not the case. Even you had Lynne close your account there.


Trolling on the daily comments? Yeah, there's probably a good bit of that there come from IGx, but I'm sure there's equal amounts of trolling there coming from elsewhere - all the posts with "43rds as rx'd" for "Cindy" and such.

Steven Low
12-02-2009, 09:54 PM
an offer of a no questions asked refund for those no longer wanted to attend the Nutrition Cert

They are refunding no questions asked. But they didn't make a statement.

Steve Romer
12-02-2009, 11:14 PM
They are refunding no questions asked. But they didn't make a statement.

The lack of a statement will catch some people by surprise when they show up for thier cert and see Barry Sears instead of Robb Wolf. To not make make a full disclosure is dishonest.

Also I heard they have gave some people an ear full about Robb Wolf, so that isn't a really a refund w/o questions.

Loni Venn
12-03-2009, 04:35 AM
I got a refund with no earful. Dave Castro himself actually replied to my email. There was no apology for a change in speakers or anything. But he also didn't yell at me for wanting my money back.

Tim Luby
12-03-2009, 08:31 AM
Innocent question, conspicuously unanswered. And this was months ago.

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=41170

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-03-2009, 12:12 PM
I can't believe I'm writing this, but what the hell?

As I wrote previously, I enjoy the crossfit community. But I also must shamelessly admit to enjoying the IGX community. That Couch Thread has perked up my spirits more than I care to admit. The folk that post there are some really funny folk that are all pretty much nonsense sorta shit stirrers to the nth degree. It's actually quite humorous to read.

Do some of them troll? I'd say yes. Do some of them actually provide constructive advise? I'd say yes.

I am not an affiliate. I haven't drunken the proverbial kool aid. Enjoy both communities. I also don't have the time to, or believe in, writing something unless it's positive or can help someone. I just don't have it in me to be a shithead. Life's too short. Others however thrive on confrontation. I say more power to them.

All I can think about is the poor picture of the disabled child competing at the special olympics with the caption that states something like "arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics; in the end, you're still retarded."

But, that said, there are those of us, who don't want to participate that still like to watch and enjoy the cheap entertainment.

Now that I've spent the time typing this, part of me just wants to change sites so it doesn't post. But what the hell?

All the best,
Arden

Steve Romer
12-03-2009, 01:31 PM
I got a refund with no earful. Dave Castro himself actually replied to my email. There was no apology for a change in speakers or anything. But he also didn't yell at me for wanting my money back.

Good to hear.

Ganine Vanalst
12-03-2009, 01:51 PM
I can't believe I'm writing this, but what the hell?

As I wrote previously, I enjoy the CrossFit community. But I also must shamelessly admit to enjoying the IGX community. That Couch Thread has perked up my spirits more than I care to admit. The folk that post there are some really funny folk that are all pretty much nonsense sorta shit stirrers to the nth degree. It's actually quite humorous to read.

Do some of them troll? I'd say yes. Do some of them actually provide constructive advise? I'd say yes.

I am not an affiliate. I haven't drunken the proverbial kool aid. Enjoy both communities. I also don't have the time to, or believe in, writing something unless it's positive or can help someone. I just don't have it in me to be a shithead. Life's too short. Others however thrive on confrontation. I say more power to them.

All I can think about is the poor picture of the disabled child competing at the special olympics with the caption that states something like "arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics; in the end, you're still retarded."

But, that said, there are those of us, who don't want to participate that still like to watch and enjoy the cheap entertainment.

Now that I've spent the time typing this, part of me just wants to change sites so it doesn't post. But what the hell?

All the best,
Arden

Arden:

I don't know you, but I am proud of you none-the-less for coming forward. You are not alone. You've inspired me to confess that I find IGX funny as hell. Take this one today:

"When Barry Cooper finally kills himself it will be by leaping from atop of his suicide note."

Hopefully Barry can see the humor in that and be able to laugh at himself. Many on the CrossFit boards take themselves way way too fucking seriously. That is something I appreciate in Everett and Rippetoe is that they have a sense of humor. You gotta be able to laugh at yourself.

I am doubly ashamed of my admission because as a female I should be greatly offended by many of the posts. Sometimes when I stop laughing long enough to reflect on how demeaning some of it is I do get a bit offended, but then another Hitler video goes up and all is forgotten.

And I also confess that I did take some sips of Kool Aid, but I didn't swallow. Yea, I'm that kinda girl.

Renee Lee
12-03-2009, 01:55 PM
I can't believe I'm writing this, but what the hell?

<snip>

You know, honestly...I don't have a huge problem with Irongarm either. It's the interwebs. If you expect anonymous people to be respectful and reasonable...then you've never been to the /b/ server on 4chan. (it's NOT sfw, btw) :D

My serious issue is that everybody is screaming at HQ and the mods about a giant cover up, with the censoring, not allowing the topic to be discussed...yet it's some of the same people that are posting unproductive things in those threads that's MAKING THEM GET CLOSED.

I'm not on HQ's side here...I don't think I've made my views public knowledge, actually...But you guys can't be pissed off at the mods that they won't let you do/talk about the BBS when every time it gets discussed, somebody new says something stupid...

That's really all I'm saying!

Brian DeGennaro
12-03-2009, 02:31 PM
4chan is where the internet goes to die...Irongarm is frikkin' hilarious sometimes though.

My two cents on this whole affair:

CrossFit brings a shitton of likeminded people together, and I mean a shitton. How many new "friends" have we all made as a result of CrossFit creating the boards and bringing Everett, Rip, Wolf, Burg, and many others together? How much have we learned as a result of this gathering? A LOT.

With this giant community there is bound to be the outliers, the ones in it for themselves, the ones who are full of it and full of shit, the ones who are humble, the ones who are just in general "bad". This is inevitable, greater risks for this happen whenever the population in question continues to grow.

However, I do disagree with the lack of public announcement to both Wolf and the CFers about his quitting/firing. Things could have been handle in a much better manner a la Rippetoe and been much more discreet, on both ends.

The End.

Kevin Perry
12-03-2009, 02:42 PM
Ah 4chan, hehehe yeah i know 4chan. That shit cracks me up.

Brian Stone
12-03-2009, 02:45 PM
My two cents on this whole affair:

[...]

The End.

+1.

Well put.

Mike ODonnell
12-03-2009, 04:19 PM
I think popcorn sales have gone up since the BB summit and recognition of IronGarm......best reality TV I've read ever.

...now if the Moynihan Institute would snap out his zen state and reopen....would make for the perfect storm.....minus Matt Damon and George Clooney

Philip Stablein
12-03-2009, 05:09 PM
Glad to see I am not the only one reading IGx like some sort of new hypertexted mockumentary! :D :D :D

Brian DeGennaro
12-03-2009, 05:33 PM
It's a guilty pleasure for more people than you think.

Tom Rawls
12-03-2009, 06:29 PM
Humor is subversive business. Over at iGX, they're pouring their special brand of sunshine on the dark side of x-fit.

They'd welcome you girls over there. They've never met a woman they wouldn't be happy to violate.

Steve Romer
12-03-2009, 07:21 PM
I hate say it, but after reading about 200 couch posts over at Irongarm, I think some make some of them make good points about Coach and CrossFit and some of them are just CrossFit haters. I found the most damning comments over there were about the lack of free speech at the CF forums.

How can I disagree?

Ganine Vanalst
12-03-2009, 07:26 PM
They'd welcome you girls over there. They've never met a woman they wouldn't be happy to violate.

I pretty much stick to violating myself these days. Besides, I wouldn't be able to sustain the requisite level of hate.

Humor is subversive business. Over at iGX, they're pouring their special brand of sunshine on the dark side of x-fit.

I like that: "special brand of sunshine on the dark side of x-fit." Sounds almost altruistic. Like a public service. Thank God for humor. I can't fathom how some people get by without being able to appreciate and laugh at how absurd life can be. Humor + Exercise = great way to cope with all the bullshit life throws at you (a little violation now and then doesn't hurt either :D ).

Kevin Perry
12-03-2009, 08:07 PM
You know after reading the Couch thread entirely through I think kraj and Glassman are the same person. I think someone on there mentioned it. It would be brilliant and fool us all.

Brian DeGennaro
12-03-2009, 08:10 PM
Reading all those posts, you can sorta tell who is who sometimes, besides those who have obvious screennames.

Gant Grimes
12-03-2009, 11:20 PM
Reading all those posts, you can sorta tell who is who sometimes, besides those who have obvious screennames.

Yes, there are many with dual membership. What IGXers do you think also post to this forum (monikers only, please)?

Renee, you're fairly new to the CF forums. Many here were there long ago and endured the rhetoric about free speech, libertarian ideals, blah blah blah. It's the hypocrisy of the whole thing that drives a lot of us mad.

Of course the mods have to babysit. I used to give Lynne the red ass all the time when I posted there. She recently put me on double-secret probation for my spaceship comment. (moderated blue guy, yes). I gave her hell about it in PMs, but I understand that's her job. Incidentally, CF would be better off with Lynne and Kelly Moore programming their WODs and let Pudding and Castro deal with the forum people (oh, the comedy).

Incidentally, it's that stifling of speech that is causing the diverting the traffic to IGX and other open affiliate sites. It's gonna get talked about one way or the other.

But the facts remain that
1) Glassman promoted CF as open source but never thought it would outgrow him;
2) It was over-promoted from the beginning. Hyperbolic comments like the 700 pound deadlift and dozens of elite professional and Olympic athletes have not been supported. Ever. Even once;
3) CF has been hurt by promoting people (trainers) from within, rather than business people with knowledge of growth management;
4) the forum has become an exercise in group-think;
5) many people have come to realize that the concept of elite fitness is undefinable, unmeasurable, and unnecessary for all but a handful of occupations (in which GPP actually becomes their SPP).

Keep supporting the CF forum censorship and watch what happens. Affiliates are forced to read Irongarm to see what's really happening in the CF world. You don't see that as a problem for CF?

And WTF about Louie, Tate, and Dan John not knowing what's up?

Donald Lee
12-03-2009, 11:36 PM
And WTF about Louie, Tate, and Dan John not knowing what's up?

HAHA. I did not mean that. I didn't even want to name names, but I was just trying to give an example. I meant that I don't agree with everything that a lot of highly respected coaches espouse, but I don't have a problem with them because of the manner in which they present themselves.

Donald Lee
12-03-2009, 11:46 PM
Huh?? You point out three people who have competed (well) at the world level, and have coached/produced elite level athletes in various sports, one of whom's methods revolutionized strength training in general... and you don't agree with them?

Are you talking about Louie Simmons? If anyone could explain to me how he got Westside from reading the Soviet manuals, I'd like to know. Also, from standard Westside training, is there any form of cycling? As far as I can tell, if there is a plateau, Louie blames it on a weakness. I think it's interesting that Dave Tate and Jim Wendler have been moving away from Westside.

When I said I didn't agree with them, I didn't mean I didn't agree with their training methodologies for their respective sports. I meant I have some disagreements on other things, but I don't really want to divert this thread so please don't ask me what those disagreements are.

travis earp
12-04-2009, 12:08 AM
I honestly feel pretty terrible about getting that thread closed. Yes I have some Crossfit angst issues, yes I read IGx. But honestly that discussion was going in a somewhat positive direction and I shouldn't have mouthed off, no matter how much I can't stand Barry Cooper.

I put in some time at the CF boards. Considerable time lurking before I created an account with about a years worth of activity. So, I like to think I'm not just some troll. It wasn't until after I went to a level 1 cert that my respect for that whole "community" dwindled and my posting dropped off fairly quickly. The summit and the shit storm that followed took away any respect I had left for the organization.

I apologize to anyone I offended, but...

Yes, there are many with dual membership. What IGXers do you think also post to this forum (monikers only, please)?

Renee, you're fairly new to the CF forums. Many here were there long ago and endured the rhetoric about free speech, libertarian ideals, blah blah blah. It's the hypocrisy of the whole thing that drives a lot of us mad.

Of course the mods have to babysit. I used to give Lynne the red ass all the time when I posted there. She recently put me on double-secret probation for my spaceship comment. (moderated blue guy, yes). I gave her hell about it in PMs, but I understand that's her job. Incidentally, CF would be better off with Lynne and Kelly Moore programming their WODs and let Pudding and Castro deal with the forum people (oh, the comedy).

Incidentally, it's that stifling of speech that is causing the diverting the traffic to IGX and other open affiliate sites. It's gonna get talked about one way or the other.

But the facts remain that
1) Glassman promoted CF as open source but never thought it would outgrow him;
2) It was over-promoted from the beginning. Hyperbolic comments like the 700 pound deadlift and dozens of elite professional and Olympic athletes have not been supported. Ever. Even once;
3) CF has been hurt by promoting people (trainers) from within, rather than business people with knowledge of growth management;
4) the forum has become an exercise in group-think;
5) many people have come to realize that the concept of elite fitness is undefinable, unmeasurable, and unnecessary for all but a handful of occupations (in which GPP actually becomes their SPP).

Keep supporting the CF forum censorship and watch what happens. Affiliates are forced to read Irongarm to see what's really happening in the CF world. You don't see that as a problem for CF?

And WTF about Louie, Tate, and Dan John not knowing what's up?

All of that, +1.

Brandon Oto
12-04-2009, 04:38 AM
IGX fulfills the role of special-interest watchdog organization for CF. Which is valuable and important. Which is insane.

Steven Low
12-04-2009, 09:13 AM
4) the forum has become an exercise in group-think;

And that's why I really only post in injuries now.

Because you have 10 people who all put their "opinions" into one thread, and there's no system for which a new person can distinguish who has good information and bad information.

Of course, I don't waste my time with long posts now just giving short answers because you don't really NEED a long post ... but the newbs only listen to the longer posts which are usually full of a bunch of incorrect information.

Same reason why I got fed up with posting on bodybuilding.com ironically.

Steve Romer
12-04-2009, 11:07 AM
And that's why I really only post in injuries now.

Because you have 10 people who all put their "opinions" into one thread, and there's no system for which a new person can distinguish who has good information and bad information.

Of course, I don't waste my time with long posts now just giving short answers because you don't really NEED a long post ... but the newbs only listen to the longer posts which are usually full of a bunch of incorrect information.

Same reason why I got fed up with posting on bodybuilding.com ironically.

Steven I always read your stuff over there and you were great help to me on the Vitamin D stuff.

Mike ODonnell
12-04-2009, 11:35 AM
And that's why I really only post in injuries now.

Because you have 10 people who all put their "opinions" into one thread, and there's no system for which a new person can distinguish who has good information and bad information.

Don't let the people spreading bad info scare you away.....otherwise they win and then the place becomes an institution for bad info (as I would of never found PMenu long long ago....if it didn't start out in the CF forums at some point...nor would of met and had access to great people from around the web who also were there at some point).

I am not there to promote seminars or Zone bars....just help spread info to people who may really need it. I am not there to just bash the Zone either, but also help people see why it can work and maybe there are other ways as well. What people do at that point....well is their decision and journey to take and learn from.

I'll keep posting to the nutrition section about real foods, eating without going OCD, and intermittent fasting.....as it is probably needed now more than ever considering the Zone Nutrition focus HQ is now centering around as the "ideal" way.....sure the Zone "can" work and may be a good place for some to start from (hell I tried it long ago only to learn how much I hated that kind of eating OCD and then searched for a better way...which got me to where I am today), but it is not the only way.....and people need to know that.

The CF forums and affiliates are a great resource for the public and think-tank on fitness out there......but it is obvious from a business POV that HQ needs them more than they need it. The think-tank community evolves and changes based on experiences and what works, and it is ongoing. If HQ is too dead set in "one way only" to keep up with their own community created evolution, then they are going to be left behind soon enough.

Steve Romer
12-04-2009, 02:06 PM
I honestly feel pretty terrible about getting that thread closed. Yes I have some Crossfit angst issues, yes I read IGx. But honestly that discussion was going in a somewhat positive direction and I shouldn't have mouthed off, no matter how much I can't stand Barry Cooper.

I put in some time at the CF boards. Considerable time lurking before I created an account with about a years worth of activity. So, I like to think I'm not just some troll. It wasn't until after I went to a level 1 cert that my respect for that whole "community" dwindled and my posting dropped off fairly quickly. The summit and the shit storm that followed took away any respect I had left for the organization.

I apologize to anyone I offended, but...



All of that, +1.

I thought your post was dead on except for maybe using the word couch instead of coach. Nothing you said was really thread closing worthy. I think CFHQ needs lighten up a little in order to grow a little. If I was the moderator, I would have ask you to be respectful to coach and left the thread open, but that is me.

Darryl Shaw
12-05-2009, 05:38 AM
And that's why I really only post in injuries now.

Because you have 10 people who all put their "opinions" into one thread, and there's no system for which a new person can distinguish who has good information and bad information.

Of course, I don't waste my time with long posts now just giving short answers because you don't really NEED a long post ... but the newbs only listen to the longer posts which are usually full of a bunch of incorrect information.

Same reason why I got fed up with posting on bodybuilding.com ironically.

That's why I tend to include a lot of links in my posts on nutrition and have a link to the AIS Sport Nutrition Factsheets (http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition) in my sig, plus I figure that a good link to a credible source helps avoid a lot of pointless arguments.

Gant Grimes
12-05-2009, 05:53 AM
I thought your post was dead on except for maybe using the word couch instead of coach.

I have one of those weird keyboards where the "a" is right next to the "u." Honest mistake.

travis earp
12-05-2009, 10:09 AM
I have one of those weird keyboards where the "a" is right next to the "u." Honest mistake.

Wait... You mean they don't all come like that? :confused:

Brian DeGennaro
12-05-2009, 03:04 PM
Off the top of my head, Gant,

POD
BOTO
Kraj
Shafpocalypse
Quack Attack
Anon

There are more but those are the ones I can think of without checking the "couch" thread because if I do, I know I'll be there for an hour reading through it and forget what the hell I came there for.

Brandon Oto
12-05-2009, 03:18 PM
Hell, I post under my name. Although the time may finally be approaching to change that, with deference to little issues like employability.

Arien Malec
12-05-2009, 06:53 PM
Off the top of my head, Gant,

POD
BOTO
Kraj
Shafpocalypse
Quack Attack
Anon

There are more but those are the ones I can think of without checking the "couch" thread because if I do, I know I'll be there for an hour reading through it and forget what the hell I came there for.

I hope I never discover the who is who. I prefer to think of IGx as a separate realm mostly populated with precocious, clever 14 year old boys who have seen breasts only in pictures and, by consequence, think of them all the time.

Brian DeGennaro
12-05-2009, 07:27 PM
I like to think of IGx as people just letting loose and making use of the first amendment.

Arien Malec
12-05-2009, 09:29 PM
I like to think of IGx as people just letting loose and making use of the first amendment.

I wasn't criticizing, exactly, just saying...

Allen Yeh
12-06-2009, 03:39 AM
I hope I never discover the who is who. I prefer to think of IGx as a separate realm mostly populated with precocious, clever 14 year old boys who have seen breasts only in pictures and, by consequence, think of them all the time.

Ha!

Darryl Shaw
12-07-2009, 05:27 AM
I only discovered IGx last week and thanks to the couch thread I've found out that the "unlimited" web access I pay for on my phone every month has a fair usage limit which I've managed to "significantly exceed". :mad:

Mike Romano
12-07-2009, 08:07 AM
I only discovered IGx last week and thanks to the couch thread I've found out that the "unlimited" web access I pay for on my phone every month has a fair usage limit which I've managed to "significantly exceed". :mad:

Hahaha....can't believe I hadn't seen that site before yesterday.

James Evans
12-10-2009, 04:54 AM
Are you talking about Louie Simmons? If anyone could explain to me how he got Westside from reading the Soviet manuals, I'd like to know.

Just out of interest Donald, you obviously know your stuff but were you of that opinion before Lyle posted something similar (ie verbatim) on 8weeksout?

I think there was a counter argument through eliteFTS last week (in my interpretation anyway): "Maybe we didn't get the Russians right but we got it better and surely that's our job?"

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/conjugate_system.htm

Gavin Harrison
12-10-2009, 01:49 PM
Just out of interest Donald, you obviously know your stuff but were you of that opinion before Lyle posted something similar (ie verbatim) on 8weeksout?

I think there was a counter argument through eliteFTS last week (in my interpretation anyway): "Maybe we didn't get the Russians right but we got it better and surely that's our job?"

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/conjugate_system.htm

Also, http://www.elitefts.com/documents/science_of_winning.htm.

Seems that they took the idea that you can strengthen a movement by strengthen the supporting muscles from Vasili Alexeyev.

Aimee Anaya Everett
12-10-2009, 02:18 PM
Gant-
We would like to sponsor you to go to the games. We all know you could kick everyone's asses.

Patrick Donnelly
12-10-2009, 03:21 PM
Gant-
We would like to sponsor you to go to the games. We all know you could kick everyone's asses.

I dunno... He'll have to get through both Sectionals and Regionals now to get to the Games... Could be tough. :rolleyes:

Donald Lee
12-11-2009, 02:24 AM
Just out of interest Donald, you obviously know your stuff but were you of that opinion before Lyle posted something similar (ie verbatim) on 8weeksout?

I think there was a counter argument through eliteFTS last week (in my interpretation anyway): "Maybe we didn't get the Russians right but we got it better and surely that's our job?"

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/conjugate_system.htm

I have wondered about this before Lyle posted his spew. I have not done Westside with the varying the ME lifts every 1-3 weeks, so I wonder how sustainable lifting at high intensities for prolonged periods is. I'm guessing the high variety tends to somewhat override the burnout. Also, they're usually not psyching up. I know they do deload occasionally.

My big question about WSB methods is whether varying lifts every 1-3 weeks is equivalent in effect to varying intensity and volume. If it is, then I can understand how it works.

Anyways, I'd like to re-recommend the Reactive Training Manual that Dave Van Skike recommended. I like what he did with WSB and block training. It makes more sense to me.

Edit: This is a random thread.

James Evans
12-11-2009, 04:52 AM
Edit: This is a random thread.

You should have seen the one about the UFOs....

James Evans
12-11-2009, 04:53 AM
Gant-
We would like to sponsor you to go to the games. We all know you could kick everyone's asses.

If they replace sledgehammering a metal stake with a brisket smoke-off I'm backing Gant.

Gant Grimes
12-11-2009, 06:19 AM
I'm pissed off enough to seriously consider this.

The funny thing about the stake event is that earlier that week I was hammering welding rods (couldn't find stakes) to make a DIY Fingal's Fingers. While I was swinging the sledge, I told Justin, "those idiots probably couldn't hammer a damn tent stake without smashing their fingers." A few days later, I was proven right.

I've been thinking about this for a bit. I'm 225 right now, reasonably strong, fat, and happy. I hate the thought of getting emaciated and weak, but I guess I could sup a little cypionate like the others. I couldn't beat Thiel in my region, but I might grab another spot. If nothing else, I could be the only guy to compete with my shirt ON.

Garrett Smith
12-11-2009, 06:28 AM
I think Catalyst or Norcal S&C should host their own games. Call it whatever. Actually have some heavy lifting with rules. Not so many events that people are ruined for weeks/months afterwards. Maybe give strong hints beforehand as to what the events will be.

I'd totally go.

Mike ODonnell
12-11-2009, 07:42 AM
You should have seen the one about the UFOs....

Someone needs to dig that one up, unlock it and give it some CPR.....and give Shaf his user account back.....

Jay Cohen
12-11-2009, 09:24 AM
Gant-
We would like to sponsor you to go to the games. We all know you could kick everyone's asses.

Post up the PayPal button, I'd hit that. Shirt needs to be kick ass slogan.

Brian Stone
12-11-2009, 10:03 AM
Post up the PayPal button, I'd hit that. Shirt needs to be kick ass slogan.

I think a shirt with only his current signature would be perfect.

Derek Weaver
12-11-2009, 10:33 AM
Post up the PayPal button, I'd hit that. Shirt needs to be kick ass slogan.

I think a shirt with only his current signature would be perfect.

Someone needs to dig that one up, unlock it and give it some CPR.....and give Shaf his user account back.....

I second all three of these comments.

Ron Nelson
12-11-2009, 11:41 AM
1. All that talk of "sectionals" and "regionals" makes the gaymes seem more and more like "Glee." I like "Glee;" I'm no fan of the gaymes.
2. Shaf doesn't want his account back, although he's been saying awfully positive things about a guy named G. Everett lately.
3. I was banned by a certain fitness website founded by a former "gymnast" for comments I made HERE. Not on their forum. Don't talk to me about the mods and the "job" they do.

That is all.

Allen Yeh
12-11-2009, 01:18 PM
Hey Ron!

Steve Romer
12-11-2009, 04:23 PM
1. All that talk of "sectionals" and "regionals" makes the gaymes seem more and more like "Glee." I like "Glee;" I'm no fan of the gaymes.
2. Shaf doesn't want his account back, although he's been saying awfully positive things about a guy named G. Everett lately.
3. I was banned by a certain fitness website founded by a former "gymnast" for comments I made HERE. Not on their forum. Don't talk to me about the mods and the "job" they do.

That is all.

Wow banned for posting elsewhere. It is even worst than I thought.

Tom Rawls
12-11-2009, 04:35 PM
I could be the only guy to compete with my shirt ON.

That is so not functional.

Brandon Oto
12-11-2009, 04:58 PM
Wow banned for posting elsewhere. It is even worst than I thought.

You should see some of the shit I got for remarks I made at P&B...

Gavin Harrison
12-12-2009, 08:52 AM
I have wondered about this before Lyle posted his spew. I have not done Westside with the varying the ME lifts every 1-3 weeks, so I wonder how sustainable lifting at high intensities for prolonged periods is. I'm guessing the high variety tends to somewhat override the burnout. Also, they're usually not psyching up. I know they do deload occasionally.

My big question about WSB methods is whether varying lifts every 1-3 weeks is equivalent in effect to varying intensity and volume. If it is, then I can understand how it works.

Anyways, I'd like to re-recommend the Reactive Training Manual that Dave Van Skike recommended. I like what he did with WSB and block training. It makes more sense to me.

Edit: This is a random thread.

Donald,

That's the idea at least, that changing the exercise every week prevents the CNS from rebelling. However, if you listen to Wendler, most guys at WS would skip the ME movement every 4th week or so anyway, which is part of his justification for the 3-day per week westside rotation. The 3-day/week template is something Matt Rhodes did for a while, and his comments were if he were to change anything, weeks where he only benched once would always be an ME day, and squat once would always be a DE day. I think Louie Simmons can be quoted as saying he'd cautioned Chuck Vogelpohl, saying that he went too heavy too often and was liable to burn out.

Also,

I support the movement to have Gant Gimes for president..

John Frazer
12-12-2009, 02:35 PM
But you guys can't be pissed off at the mods that they won't let you do/talk about the BBS when every time it gets discussed, somebody new says something stupid...


The problem is that it totally contradicts CF's stated ideal of individual accountability. We use whiteboards in our gyms, post our WOD results online, etc. because we're willing to take our lumps individually.

The way to moderate a board consistently with that philosophy would be to moderate/suspend/ban users who actually violate the terms of use. Instead, they'll close a thread by person A because some person B might violate the terms in the future, perhaps by discussing a topic that A wasn't even asking about.

I know whereof I speak on this: http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=53399

Shane Skowron
12-12-2009, 05:22 PM
Instead, they'll close a thread by person A because some person B might violate the terms in the future, perhaps by discussing a topic that A wasn't even asking about.

It's a preemptive strike. See articles linked on rest days for further justification...

Mike ODonnell
12-13-2009, 04:24 PM
Gant-
We would like to sponsor you to go to the games. We all know you could kick everyone's asses.

Can we also sponsor Darryl to go to the next Zone certification? I am sure he would have a couple questions for the Doc

Dave Van Skike
12-13-2009, 06:40 PM
nevermind...was all off track and shit...

suffice it to say..

wrt the GG presidency...gant grimes is a deceitful bastard. i have seen pictures of his el cheapo brinkman smoker Or similar...???), the modifications for which he has still not disclosed....and i heard he's a lawyer.

there's a great article by jim wendler called max effort waves. it is very good at assplaining how to fiddle with ME work if you're following that template. you can google that shit or someone who is patient can tell me how to attach a word doc..

Gavin Harrison
12-13-2009, 07:25 PM
Dave,

Pretty much everything on EFS by Dave Tate and Jim Wendler on the topic of training is very good. EFS Basic Training/Bench Manual, Wendler's Max Effort Manual and 5/3/1 are all excellent. All of Jim's articles are also very good.

EDIT/PS - The Wendler Max Effort Manual has a good section at the end by Supertraining Gym about how to play with ME workouts. The EFS Basic Training Manual has a section on various methods of deloading, etc.

Darryl Shaw
12-14-2009, 05:10 AM
Can we also sponsor Darryl to go to the next Zone certification? I am sure he would have a couple questions for the Doc

You just want to see if it would be me or Barry who flips out and gets arrested for assault with a Molecular Baked™ cinnamon bun. :p

Scott Kustes
12-14-2009, 06:53 AM
You just want to see if it would be me or Barry who flips out and gets arrested for assault with a Molecular Baked™ cinnamon bun. :p
I'm sure you could sell that video for quite a lot. I'd pay-per-view that.

Brian DeGennaro
12-14-2009, 07:08 AM
Be better than all the Tiger Woods crap going on...

Gant Grimes
12-14-2009, 07:24 AM
gant grimes is a deceitful bastard. i have seen pictures of his el cheapo brinkman smoker Or similar...???), the modifications for which he has still not disclosed....and i heard he's a lawyer.

I only take issue with the smoker. It's a Weber, dammit, and it made me a damn fine dinner last night. Pork ribs with a dry rub and finished with a bit of apricot preserve (so I can get credit for eating fruit).

Brian Stone
12-14-2009, 02:38 PM
there's a great article by jim wendler called max effort waves. it is very good at assplaining how to fiddle with ME work if you're following that template. you can google that shit or someone who is patient can tell me how to attach a word doc..

Google didn't give me the .doc, but I found a version allegedly copy/pasted. Someone let me know if I'm violating copyright or whatnot.

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Max Effort Waves
By Jim Wendler
For EliteFTS

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Bulgarian Method

This is a three week phase designed for those who have a tremendous work capacity. This is NOT for beginners! For those that do this cycle, you should have at least 8 weeks of prep work that includes conditioning and progressively training your body for a large amount of volume and intensity. The same exercise is to be used for three weeks, the last week being a deload week. After doing the one exercise, not much is to be done for the workout. This is because of the tremendous load; you will be physically and mentally exhausted.

A good way to prepare for this cycle is to perform the first 7 sets (from 50% to 100%) and then dropping down to 90% for 1 set. After that set, stop the workout; the next week add in one more set at or above 90%. Deload the following week and begin the training cycle listed below. I would not recommend doing this style of training for very long as it can be very difficult on the body and mind.

Week I

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x1 @ 90%
1x1 @ 95%
1x1 @ 100%
1x1 @ 90%
1x1@ 95%
1x1 @ 100+% (try to beat old record)
Week II - same as week one (same exercise/set and rep scheme)

Week III - This is a deload week (use same exercise)

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
Notes:

Same exercise to be used for all three weeks.
For advanced lifters and those that have great work capacities.
Must prepare for this wave; don’t jump right into it.


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Old School Method

This is the traditional max effort method and probably the most popular. In this cycle you will have 3 lifts at or above 90%. This is the recommended number of lifts (in that percent range) in accordance to Prilipin’s chart. When using this method, the lift is changed every week or every other week. This has been done for years at Westside Barbell with incredible results.

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x1 @ 90%
1x1 @ 95%
1x1 @ 100%
Notes:

This is the most popular method.
Switch exercises every 1-2 weeks.
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6 Week Progressive Overload

This method can be done several different ways. The first way is to pick one exercise and perform a 6 week wave. This is best done using an exercise that you are very familiar with and know your max. Obviously this is easier for an advanced lifter that knows his max effort lifts.

Here is the six week program:

Week 1 - 4x6 @ 65%
Week 2 - 3x6@ 70%
Week 3 - 3x6 @ 75%
Week 4 - 4x3 @ 80%
Week 5 - 3x2@ 85%
Week 6 - 2x1@ 90%
Another variation of this program is to use a different exercise each week. This was written about in another article, “Variation on Max Effort Training.” Here is part of the article.

This is a six week plan and you will notice that the volume during your workouts will be significantly increased. Because of this, I would monitor your accessory and supplemental work and be careful of overtraining.

Week 1 - 4x6 @ 65%
Week 2 - 3x6@ 70%
Week 3 - 3x6 @ 75%
Week 4 - 4x3 @ 80%
Week 5 - 3x2@ 85%
Week 6 - 2x1@ 90%
The basic premise on how to use this training is to max out on whatever max effort exercise you are doing and then drop down and perform a certain amount of sets/reps at a given percentage of the max THAT YOU JUST DID on the very same exercise. For example;

Week I

2 Board Press - work up to 500x1, then 4x6 @ 325 (65% of 500)

Week II

Floor Press - work up to 455x1, then 3x6 @ 315 (70% of 455)
Week III

Incline Press - work up to 375x1, then 3x6 @ 280 (75% of 375)

And so on…

Because the ME movement takes longer than usual, I recommend super setting lat work and upper back work between the sets. This will allow you to keep you workout time fairly short.



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5/3/1 Method

This is a three week cycle and uses the same exercise for all three weeks. This is great for all lifters, from intermediate to advanced. For an intermediate lifter, it allows them to get used to an exercise and the form. For an advanced lifter, it allows for a lower intensity for two weeks which gives their bodies time to recover. The percents listed below are estimates for an advanced lifter. An intermediate lifter may be able to use +2.5% on the last set.

Week I

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x5 @ 82.5%
Week II

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x1 @ 85%
1x3 @ 90%
Week III

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x1 @ 90%
1x1 @ 95%
1x1 @ 100%
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Repetition Deload

In this max effort method, you take 1 exercise, perform a max effort with the exercise for 2 weeks and deload the third week. The third week is usually a high repetition day with dumbbells. The exercises used on the third week are dumbbell bench press, dumbbell incline press or dumbbell floor press. A sample wave would look like this:

Week 1: Floor Press

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x1 @ 90%
1x1 @ 95%
1x1 @ 100%
Week 2: Floor Press

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x1 @ 90%
1x1 @ 95%
1x1 @ 100+% (try to break record from last week)
Week 3: Dumbbell Bench Press – 3-5 sets of 8-20 reps.

When picking the weight for the dumbbell bench press, start with a very light weight and work up from there. For example, I like to do my last two sets of dumbbell bench work with the 150lbs dumbbells. So a workout will look like this:

35lbs x 15
55x10
80x10
100x10
115x10
130x10
150x8
150x8
There is not an exact set/rep scheme when using dumbbells. The point of this training workout is to do some lighter repetition work. If you understand why you are doing what you are doing, the workouts will make sense. Some people will like to take a pair of dumbbells and perform as many reps in three sets as possible. They record the number and try to break it at a later time. Other people try to break a repetition record with a dumbbell. For example, if my best set with the 130lbs dumbbells is 25 reps, I will try to break that record.


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2 Week Method

This is something that I learned from Buddy Morris who was the strength coach for the Cleveland Browns as well as the University of Pittsburgh. This has been slightly modified, but the spirit remains the same. Basically, you perform a max effort exercise for two weeks. The first week is done to accumulate the body to the lift as well as a heavy (but not maximal) load. The second week is an all-out effort, trying to break your personal record.

Week I

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x1 @ 85%
1x1 @ 90%
1x1 @ 92.5%
Week II

1x5 @ 50%
1x3 @ 60%
1x2 @ 70%
1x1 @ 80%
1x1 @ 90%
1x1 @ 95%
1x1 @ 100%
You will notice that the first week is done up to 92.5% of your 1RM. You can do this last set, cut it out, or do another set at 90%. The point of this workout is to still handle heavy weight but not mentally and physically fry yourself. Remember that when choosing your attempts.


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Timed ME work

This is something that is new to me. I have NOT done this yet, so I will write this with caution. But Mark McLaughlin, a coach that I know and trust, has used it. He got this idea from the book “Explosive Power and Jumping Ability for All Sports” by Starzynksi and Sozanski, PhD.

With this method, you begin with 50% of your max.

Perform 6 repetitions and time the set with a stop watch. Perform the reps as quick as possible but DO NOT let your form suffer. I suggest doing a couple of warm-up sets with the 50% before doing the test set of 6 reps. This will warm up your body and get your rhythm down. You should fall within 6.5 – 8.5 seconds.

Add one second to the time. So if it took you 7.3 seconds to do 6 reps your time would now be 8.3 seconds.

For your second set, add 10-20lbs to the bar and try to complete the set in under 8.3 seconds (or whatever time you came up with).

Every set after, add 10-20lbs to the bar and try to complete the prescribed time frame.

Once you cannot complete a set at or under the prescribed time frame, the workout is over and move onto the next exercise.

Try to complete more sets every workout.

Using a stop watch can help quantify the work, but be careful of the breakdown in form.

Dominic Sirianni
02-25-2010, 01:23 PM
so is Gant going to the games?

Jay Ashman
02-25-2010, 01:51 PM
so is Gant going to the games?

I think they would have a list of people they would ban from the Games, and Gant may be on that list :D haha

Garrett Smith
02-25-2010, 02:22 PM
Well, if people are banned, guess the "divined through competition, not debate" BS flies out the window.

My guess is Gant would shoot himself before the Games were completed, pleading insanity due to inadvertent Kool-Aid poisoning.

Jay Ashman
02-25-2010, 02:26 PM
Well, if people are banned, guess the "divined through competition, not debate" BS flies out the window.

My guess is Gant would shoot himself before the Games were completed, pleading insanity due to inadvertent Kool-Aid poisoning.

I doubt if anyone is banned really, but I would suspect they don't want certain people there like Robb, Greg etc. Just a guess.

He probably would shoot himself or deliberately miss a snatch on his head just to get the hell out of there.

You see some great performances at those things for sure, but if you are not into the entire CF experience you will end up shaking your head at some of the things people say.

Jonathan Yoon
02-25-2010, 02:56 PM
I doubt if anyone is banned really, but I would suspect they don't want certain people there like Robb, Greg etc. Just a guess.

He probably would shoot himself or deliberately miss a snatch on his head just to get the hell out of there.

You see some great performances at those things for sure, but if you are not into the entire CF experience you will end up shaking your head at some of the things people say.

I'm sure that Shave and Bony will be patrolling the grounds.

Garrett Smith
02-25-2010, 03:08 PM
I'm sure that Shave and Bony will be patrolling the grounds.
I'm not sure about Bony, it seems he may have been assigned to be "babysitter/translator" to the GWF based on the most recent CFJ videos.

Gant Grimes
02-26-2010, 07:17 AM
I mulled this over for a week and a half. The first question was whether I had enough bile that I was willing to sacrifice six months of my life for dumbass training in a pointless endeavorsacrifice some hard-earned strength and size. The answer was no.

The second question was whether I was willing to forgo several judo tournaments, a HG, and whatever else popped up the first half of the year. Giving up actual sports for competitive exercise exhibitions goes against my core beliefs. Another no.

No doubt there are great athletes that compete in the Games. I could get there, but I couldn't win. Not even close. I have scorn, but I don't have the youth, desire, or drugs necessary to take it.

Mike ODonnell
05-02-2010, 11:07 AM
Didn't know where to put this...so just picked this thread.

Looks like the institute is back online! Good stuff like the old days and entertaining for the mind. Bring back the flying saucers Walshy!

http://www.moynihaninstitute.com/

John P. Walsh
05-20-2010, 11:01 AM
Didn't know where to put this...so just picked this thread.

Looks like the institute is back online! Good stuff like the old days and entertaining for the mind. Bring back the flying saucers Walshy!

http://www.moynihaninstitute.com/

Yes we are back in full production and will be looking to field a team for the Gaymes.

http://www.moynihaninstitute.com/

Mike ODonnell
05-21-2010, 08:38 AM
Yes we are back in full production and will be looking to field a team for the Gaymes.

http://www.moynihaninstitute.com/

How many flying saucers are being sent this year? Who's driving?

John P. Walsh
05-24-2010, 12:27 PM
How many flying saucers are being sent this year? Who's driving?

Just one so far. Naturally the Dan John will be the head pilot in charge.