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Brian Lawyer
12-03-2009, 12:41 PM
Hey Guys,
I've been on CA for a while now and never bothered to check out the Fighting section. Looks like a good group of guys in here with the same interests as me; O'Lifting and MMA training. I've been really into O'lifting for the past year. I haven't done much MMA training since 2001 but recently have been getting back into it.

From reading through the recent posts, it appears many others are attempting to figure out how they can integrate a program to do both O'lifts and MMA. Has anyone been successful? They seem to be so different sports. Huge difference when doing max effort lifts 80-95% and resting 2-3 minutes between sets versus the rigors of MMA training. Not too mention the demands on your body from going from heavy olympic lifts to grappling training.

Take a look at my training log, the link is in my signature. I have some video where I tried to go from an Olympic lifting competition one weekend to MMA the next weekend. All I can say now is that I am a believer in metabolic conditioning... Also, I don't see how you could stay competetive in both sports. It seems like one would have to choose one or the other....

Brian Lawyer
12-03-2009, 12:49 PM
Side bar - I have been looking for a good instructional (book or DVD) with sport specific conditioning and exercises for MMA. I am referring to the below listed type of exercises that I always see them doing on either TUF or one of my MMA coaches usually makes up stuff. Has anyone ever bothered to catalog these exercises. Victory belt books are great encyclopedias on technique but I suggest putting out a book on conditioning/strength exercises and breaking into categories (i.e. these group of exercises help grappling, this sectioin for standup, etc.)

Here are some examples of the type of exercises I was thinking of:
1. Sprawling on medicine balls (partner rolls med ball to you),
2. Crawling on hands and feet without letting there bodies touch the ground but touching elbows to knees.
3. Various circuits.
4. sprawl, standup, partner throws med ball at you, catch it, and then sprawl again.

Those are best I could come up with off top of my head but you should get the idea. Does anyone catalog these somewhere....

Grissim Connery
12-04-2009, 02:36 AM
Also, I don't see how you could stay competetive in both sports. It seems like one would have to choose one or the other....

i think that most individuals in this world aren't very competitive at multiple sports in general. in highschool maybe, but after that not so much. i'd like to be better at gymnastics personally, but that's always going to take second stage to grappling. therefore i'm not "competitive" with gymnastics. i feel that striving to be competitive will most likely reduce your potential in either category from strictly a time perspective. that is unless you cut out social/family life.

from a body recovery perspective, i don't squat that much anymore. i find that upper body work generally doesn't impair my grappling and such the next day. on the other hand, playing any form of the guard with sore legs is not good times. i feel that jumping and pistols maintain most of my strength needs in my legs. i generally do more power cleans now to avoid excess squatting, although i find that if i do squat, doing it out of a clean is preferable since it's mostly a concentric effort with less resultant soreness. thus, because i dont' squat very often, i would never expect my numbers on snatch and C&J to be particularly impressive.

Side bar - I have been looking for a good instructional (book or DVD) with sport specific conditioning and exercises for MMA.


scott sonnon's stuff is pretty good. here's some exercises i like:
1. quarter getups with a KB
2. boat type work (helps butterfly guard)
3. QDR's (helps free legs and balance with upper body)
4. ring work (since i ever started rings, my forearms seldom get burnt out during competitions)
5. parkour crawls
6. deck squats
7. while walking with my hands, keeping my body rigid, and putting an upside down frisbee under my feet to let them slide, i hand walk in forward planks, l-sits, manna-ish planks (belly button faces up, hands go behind), straddle walks (2 frisbees needed)
8. handstand work
9. muscle-ups - strictly for the benefits to the false grip. the way you cock your hand in the false grip has applications towards grappling.
ex) gable grip, then cock your wrists like a false grip. if you do it right, you'll notice how much sturdier the grip is
ex2) when you arm drag, cock your hand in the false grip when you wrap his upper arm. the heel of your hand/outer blade of your arm should hook on to his tricep pretty well, thus eliminating the need for fingers really.
10. ball balancing - roll all over that bitch. it's fun. try to roll from knees all the way over shoulders without falling off. do this for a while and you'll get pretty tired. i don't find standing on the ball helps much for fighting, but people will be impressed if you do it.
11. i'm gonna reiterate deck squats. i thought about it more and realized how applicable that motion is.

that's some stuff i can think of now. you already mentioned you OL, so the hips snap should be well ingrained.


2. Crawling on hands and feet without letting there bodies touch the ground but touching elbows to knees.


that's the jacare. ronaldo jacare does it because "jacare" means crocodile (or alligator?) in portugese. when you look at the motion, it's similar to how a crocodile walks. it's also a bitch to teach people in the beginning.

Brian Lawyer
12-04-2009, 06:26 AM
Thanks Grissim. Those were the types of exercises I had in mind. Things I could tack on in a circuit or something after training BJJ or Sparring. I wasn't sure if someone had bothered to write them out in a book or dvd. I was looking at Scott Sonnin's materials the other day but they were kind of pricey. I also wasn't sure if Ross had those type of exercises in his book. Ross's books have been on my wish list for a while now.

Brian Lawyer
12-04-2009, 09:10 AM
Hey Grissim, I found this today, Ultimate MMA Conditioning, http://www.8weeksout.com/. Have you ever heard of this JJ guy?

Brian Lawyer
12-04-2009, 11:05 AM
Another resource I came across that I wouldn't mind your opinion on, http://www.dieselcrew.com/mma-manual-re-released/

Whoever these diesal crew guys are, they teach a legitimate squat; http://www.dieselcrew.com/how-to-squat/

Derek Simonds
12-04-2009, 12:41 PM
The Diesel Crew is legit. Smitty is an online aquaintance and a solid guy. He trained Tom Lawlor for his time on TUF. Tom now has an MMA school here in Orlando with Seth Petruzelli. Here is some of the training that they did.

http://www.dieselcrew.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383

You really can't go wrong with any of the Diesel stuff.

Donald Lee
12-04-2009, 07:25 PM
Another resource I came across that I wouldn't mind your opinion on, http://www.dieselcrew.com/mma-manual-re-released/

Whoever these diesal crew guys are, they teach a legitimate squat; http://www.dieselcrew.com/how-to-squat/

The only problem with Diesel Crew is that you might fall into the variety for the sake of variety trap. They have a ton of exercise variations in their products, but their stuff is usually solid.

Donald Lee
12-04-2009, 07:29 PM
Hey Grissim, I found this today, Ultimate MMA Conditioning, http://www.8weeksout.com/. Have you ever heard of this JJ guy?

Joel is trying to bring back the emphasis from lactic training (i.e., metcons) to a more meaningful approach. The MMA world seems to have ditched the road work, when it is so important in MMA. Contrary to popular opinion, MMA is mostly alactic and aerobic without much being lactic. Plus, the lactic energy system cannot be improved much, and lactic adaptations interfere with aerobic adaptations.

Grissim Connery
12-05-2009, 09:14 AM
Joel is trying to bring back the emphasis from lactic training (i.e., metcons) to a more meaningful approach. The MMA world seems to have ditched the road work, when it is so important in MMA. Contrary to popular opinion, MMA is mostly alactic and aerobic without much being lactic. Plus, the lactic energy system cannot be improved much, and lactic adaptations interfere with aerobic adaptations.

a part of me would have to agree with the alactic concept you mention. the shear fact being that when i'm rolling, i'm never trying to feel a burn or get tired. normally whenever i feel this at all, it probably means i'm about to get my ass ripped apart because i'm trying to muscle stuff. the only instance it would seem necessary to drive into fatigue is if the opponent is hurt and so close to a knockout. in grappling, this won't happen, so i don't really deal with that.

The diesel crew stuff looks pretty intense. i'd have to agree that there's a hell of a lot of variety they offer, but i'd see it more as opportunity. in essence, you can pick a few of their many choices that you actually enjoy doing. i personally would probably like the sandbags, but skip the keg work (unless they did handstands on the kegs in intervals. that might be cool). i see the lunge and sled dragging training as more of a wrestler bias, so if you have that background then maybe you'd like that. i'm more of a thrower, so i'd pick more pulls and rotations (maybe side cleans with a KB).

IMO the real value of sport specific exercises are to understand how to properly generate force in that instance. for example, i mentioned that quarter getups with a KB are nice. the reason being that these will teach you how to escape side control very well. since escaping side control is a modified stand-up in base (imaging standing up in base but instead of putting your bottom arm's hand on the ground, you put your shoulder down) the same principles that can make it work and break it apply. if your bottom leg cannot travel beneath you, then you cannot standup in base. if your top shoulder cannot travel forward, then you cannot stand up in base. thefore, we can challenge each of these 2 areas to help understand how to deal with an opponent pressuring them. the quarter getup adds tremendous resistance to the top shoulder. therefore it is difficult to just move it foward. instead, we must move around it. dont' think about pushing the weight up, but instead think of adjusting your body beneath the weight until you have such a stable frame that the weight cannot break you down. it's possible to analyze the hell out of this, but i'll save it for the scope of this forum.

you can also metcon these if you really want. i used to do it a lot. it's relatively safe and very engaging. i would tabata it so that i could have ample time to switch sides.

on the 8weeks out site, they looked fine, but they used 2 types of ladder climbing machines. the one that really looks like a ladder is kinda cool. the one that's like a post with handles sticking out just looks silly to me. they use that at one club i've trained at, and it drives me crazy everytime. just use a damn jump rope. simplicity is always better.

i don't know if i mentioned this before, but sledge hammers and tires are a favorite exercise of mine now. i find that it's hard to mimic the slamball feeling sometimes, but this exercise does it well. this has applications towards snap downs and what not. i find that when you get into it, most of the actual strength required to perform it is just a wrist snap. getting the weight up in the air is just a back swing, windmill motion. the wrist snap comes in laying it down into the tire.

Grissim Connery
12-05-2009, 09:28 AM
after writing the last post, i thought about it and realized that i generally only use strength in 2 instances. the first is to keep stable body positions, and most of the time this just feels more like balancing to me than strength. the second way, and the only time i use strength to get stuff done in grappling, is grip/forearm strength. i find that as long as you just use snappy motions with your hands (like revving a motorcycle), they never burn out. if your forearms are constantly getting tired and you feel that they should be well trained in that area, then you're probably gripping too tightly at times when you shoulnd't be gripping that hard.

the one reason i like sonnon's stuff is that he seems to have the right mindset in that we're not always gonna be in our 20's. i'm 23, so i could maybe use athleticism do accomplish goals, but i'd rather be able to do this my whole life. some people were talking about hardstyle vs soft/fluid style KB training in another thread. the point i agree with in that discussion is that it's pretty easy to teach people how to get really tight and generate a lot of force. it seems to be much harder to teach people how to flow in and out of tightness and looseness. it's kinda like when somebody new comes to grapple, and they think they're tough, so you have to beat them down a for a few weeks until they realize they dont' know anything. then they'll learn to relax and learn how to do stuff.

Donald Lee
12-05-2009, 11:45 AM
Grissim,

Joel over at 8weeksout likes to use the VersaClimber. He uses it for a very specific purpose--what he calls High Intensity Continuous Training (HICT). He has an article on it. A jump rope cannot be used for that purpose. There are very few exercises or machines that can be used in place of the VersaClimber. The VersaClimber is the only machine that would train the upper and lower body. As far as using a C2 Rower goes, Joel talks about it here: http://www.8weeksout.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80&p=822&hilit=c2+rower#p822

Brian Lawyer
12-05-2009, 08:01 PM
The only problem with Diesel Crew is that you might fall into the variety for the sake of variety trap...
So just like crossfit...haha.

Joel is trying to bring back the emphasis from lactic training (i.e., metcons) to a more meaningful approach. The MMA world seems to have ditched the road work, when it is so important in MMA. Contrary to popular opinion, MMA is mostly alactic and aerobic without much being lactic. Plus, the lactic energy system cannot be improved much, and lactic adaptations interfere with aerobic adaptations.
You will have to put that in layman terms for me.

Donald Lee
12-05-2009, 11:25 PM
So just like crossfit...haha.


You will have to put that in layman terms for me.

Basically, the MMA world has caught the CrossFit-esque training bug. They've ditched road work, thinking that metcons mimic the needs of fighters. The problem is that metcons are not optimal for anything. They're not optimal for developing maximal strength, speed/power, strength endurance, the aerobic energy system, the glycolytic energy system, or the phosphagen energy system. While beginners can and should effectively train multiple qualities at once, advanced athletes need to train each quality separately in order to make improvements. Also, many of the adapations required of a fighter interfere with one another, especially aerobic and glycolytic adaptations. The emphasis that RossTraining/CrossFit/HIIT put on intensity are counterproductive to many aerobic adaptations. While MMA is mostly phosphagen and aerobic energy system intensive, nowadays training the anaerobic energy system through interval training is all the craze. Intervals can be used effectively to train fighters, but not in the manner that is usually prescribed (i.e., Tabatas).

If you'd like to learn some more, Joel has a sticky thread over at Sherdog. In the first few pages, he has to defend himself because everybody's a Ross Enamait lover over there, but eventually, he's able to get through to them and gives a lot of advice:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f14/how-finally-solve-your-conditioning-problem-788235/

BTW. Joel has never, ever specifically called out Ross Enamait, while he has called out CrossFit explicitly. I believe he has chosen not to call out Ross because Ross is such a great guy, despite conflicting beliefs in training.

Derek Simonds
12-06-2009, 05:48 AM
The only problem with Diesel Crew is that you might fall into the variety for the sake of variety trap. They have a ton of exercise variations in their products, but their stuff is usually solid.

The key word there is products. They definitely sell stuff. Taken with that in mind I have purchased several of their products and each one is laid out so that it is a complete system. I use their combat core product integrated with 5/3/1 and most all of my grip training has come from one of their products or articles.

I also agree with Grissim that simplicity is probably paramount for most people.

Grissim made some interesting points when he was talking about staying alactate and how whenever he feels like he has crossed that threshhold he is about to get ripped. I am either in significantly worse shape (of course I am 39) or Grissim has reached a level that I am not at because when I am grappling with higher belts or very athletic guys I am into that met-con type feeling. This past Wednesday I trained for right at 3 hours and the last 45 minutes was non stop grappling. Two out of the last 3 matches left me feeling very wrung out. My only point here is that technique wins every time with the right amount of strength but you need the gas in the tank to get there.

I also focus on the exact same thing for grip. I used to race motorcross and we called it forearm pump. It was a clue that your technique sucked and you were just hanging on. I think it is exactly the same in BJJ when my forearms start burning I look for where I am messing up. One of the major things I have started doing is from any top control I am now cupping the shoulder or tricep instead of grabbing the gi. That has made a big difference and just as Grissim said when I need to I grab and go.

I have used the versa climber before and found it to kick my arse. There was one on Craigslist a couple of months ago for cheap but I just couldn't justify it. I am going to spend some time reading Joel's stuff. Sounds very interesting.

I am pretty sure that while Ross does a ton of interval training he is into roadwork to prep someone for their fights. Again I think there is a difference between a product being sold for mass consumption and what might be done with a specific individual. I know that I have read several fight prep updates from training camps with Ross where they are running long distances.

Most of us coach ourselves on here and have had successes and failures finding what is right for our on situation. These products that are being sold are being sold to make money for the people selling them. Nothing wrong with that at all. In fact if I wasn't so lazy I would have already brought my hotelworkout.com product to the market but alas that is another story. Pick a product / style / workout map it out over 6 months or whatever time is available and stick with it. That is the key. Nothing will work if you are changing plans every couple of months. I plan on competing in the International Worlds in Brazil in July. Knowing that date I am working backwards with my strength and conditioning plan.

This is a rambling post so I am going to stop typing now.

Derek Simonds
12-06-2009, 06:01 AM
Out of time for the morning but just read the first 3 pages on Sherdog. I understand conceptually what Joel is talking about and will read on later. Thanks for the link.

Donald Lee
12-06-2009, 10:21 AM
Out of time for the morning but just read the first 3 pages on Sherdog. I understand conceptually what Joel is talking about and will read on later. Thanks for the link.

If you'd like me to clarify some of the stuff he's saying, let me know. I'm pretty familiar with the material he's put out there.

Brian Lawyer
12-06-2009, 08:06 PM
Donald/Derek/Grissim,
Since this is my thread and I got the attention of you guys and I believe you all are very knowledgeable, I need a workout for Monday. At the bottom of this thread is what I did Saturday and Sunday. Tuesday I plan to rest and Wednesday I plan train MMA. So I need a strength and conditioning piece for Monday. Something simple that will give me most bang for my buck.

My end goal is an MMA match in January that is 3 x 3min rounds. It's not a serious fight, just a "Smoker" session which is a more formal sparring session and more importantly Free. It's like the two youtube videos I have on my training log.

Saturday = rest day

Sunday:
Power Cleans
5x185
5X185
5x205

Squats (High bar ATG)
5x 225
5x245
3x275
3x295

My own version of a 3 x 3min fight gone bad that included some of the following:
burpees, push press, SDHP's, Slam Ball, box jumps, Hang squat cleans.

Brian Lawyer
12-06-2009, 08:50 PM
Some other background for you all. My main goal is to get some serious gas in the tank. I don't need any more strength because I don't have enough gas to use any of what I already have. The last 3x3min smoker session I did I spent the majority of the first two rounds resting in a good top position so I didn't gas myself out. I was scared if I pushed the pace too much I would run out of steam.

Also if you were wondering, I would be doing 3-4 days a week MMA technique except I can't afford to join an MMA gym. So I get freebies from my old MMA coach plus 2-3 quality sparring partners. I can count on them for usually one to two workouts per week.

Donald Lee
12-07-2009, 02:01 PM
Test your Resting Heart Rate in the morning soon after you wake up, while lying down, and let me know what it is.

Grissim Connery
12-07-2009, 06:30 PM
Also if you were wondering, I would be doing 3-4 days a week MMA technique except I can't afford to join an MMA gym. So I get freebies from my old MMA coach plus 2-3 quality sparring partners. I can count on them for usually one to two workouts per week.

ouch. i know what that's like though. i used to live somewhere where monthly starting fees were $180/month, and that wasn't even for every class. now i train somewhere where it's $75/month for 5days a week, ~3hour of mat time. most of my college friends think that's steep, but i try to assure them that it's a damn good deal compared to other places.

sorry you were askin for a monday workout and it's almost the end of monday, but it's finals now and i got a structural biochem exam tomorrow.

do you want a road work type workout? personally when i'm doing one of these type of workouts, i mix together jump roping, sledge hammer+tire, KB's, pullups and pushups. i try to keep it as basic as possible because i don't want to stress out my CNS with complex forms during a long lasting endeavor.

it's kinda like what i read muhammad ali did. generally i stick to the jumprope for most of the time. once i feel like i have a good amount of wind and energy, i'll do one of the other exercises. i don't go balls out interval style. i try to keep decent form, and go until i feel the very beginnings of dragging, or when my form begins to deteriorate. if i get a little too tired and i start catching the jump rope on my feet too much, i'll switch to wall ball with a 10# ball and a ~10 foot high spot. this generally helps me recover for more jump roping.

i try to feel a flow/pace during this endeavor, and i try not to break it. it's not crossfit intense, it's not boring, but it's kinda envigorating (kinda like dancing maybe?). i try to make it feel how an actual competition feels when you're trying to conserve energy. it's that feeling where you put forth proper effort when needed, but you don't ever (i'm gonna quote my instructor on this) "insist" on anything.

i generally do 15-20 minute sessions so that i don't cause much cortisol release. if i'm in the mood or "feeling it," i'll go longer. i find that you will mentally know when you need to stop.

right now my workouts are OL, gymnastics, conditioning (either above or a metcon). dunno if this helps, but i haven't had any strength or conditioning problems in BJJ for a long time now. if i get beaten, it's probably because the guy was better.

Derek Simonds
12-08-2009, 08:38 AM
Test your Resting Heart Rate in the morning soon after you wake up, while lying down, and let me know what it is.

68 for me at 39 years young. When I am not overtrained....

Brian Lawyer
12-08-2009, 08:39 AM
Test your Resting Heart Rate in the morning soon after you wake up, while lying down, and let me know what it is.

I recorded 70-75 this morning and middle of night. However, I missed the "while lying down" portion of your instructions. Once in middle of night was when I woke up to let the dogs out and go to the bathroom then I checked. Another time was after I had to step over a baby gate to turn on a light for my kid. So it's possible that is not an accurate resting heart rate. I will re-do tonight and remember to do it before I get out of bed.

ouch. i know what that's like though. i used to live somewhere where monthly starting fees were $180/month, and that wasn't even for every class. now i train somewhere where it's $75/month for 5days a week, ~3hour of mat time. most of my college friends think that's steep, but i try to assure them that it's a damn good deal compared to other places.

sorry you were askin for a monday workout...

Most of the legit gyms in our area run $100 - $150 for all you can train. Besides having zero money to spend on my MMA hobby, it is also a time obligation thing. If I spent $75/month your damn sure I am going to at least 3 training sessions per week. I don't really have time for that. Luckily I have some old muscle memory from back in the day when I did train regularly and I know enough people in the MMA community that I can come up with some decent training partners.

I had my mind set that I was going to run some 400m yesterday after work but then my wife told me she had to work and I had to babysit...

Brian Lawyer
12-08-2009, 08:57 AM
68 for me at 39 years young. When I am not overtrained....

I think it is safe to use that number for me as well, except I am 30 years old. I seem to recall in my haze stumbling to the bathroom in the middle of the night reading my Polar watch and it was in the upper 60's.

So what's the prescription Donald...

Donald Lee
12-08-2009, 12:01 PM
68 for me at 39 years young. When I am not overtrained....

Derek, that is really high, even for your age.

Brian, your resting heart rate tends to be about 2-5 beats/min higher when you're seated.

Joel has said that MMA guys should have resting heart rates in the high 40's to low 50's. I've gotten down to about 49 or so, and it doesn't that much effort...at least to get it into the 50's.

Let me explain why resting heart rate matters.

Cardiac Output = Heart Rate x Stroke Volume

The more you eccentrically stretch your heart, the greater your stroke volume. This means more blood is pumped out per beat. If your heart pumps out more blood per beat, then it does not need to pump as often; hence, a lower heart rate tends to indicate a greater stroke volume. A greater stroke volume means a greater cardiac output in general. The more blood you pump out from your heart, the more oxygen is pumped to your muscles.

This only refers to one half of the aerobic equation-the heart, but the heart is very important to aerobic performance. Generally, if you're sucking wind, you need to work on your heart. If your muscles are fatiguing, you need to work on muscular endurance. That's a crude generalization, so don't take it too seriously.

Cardiac output work tends to work best in the 120-150 HR range. The lower end is for those who are unfit. Basically, you do cardio right above your aerobic threshold, which may be above 150. Unless you get lab tested, these figures are hard to figure out. I have approximated my maximal heart rate from some intense workouts. You add 5 to the highest heart rate you've recorded. And I've figured out my anaerobic threshold from timed runs. There are some calculators that are more accurate than others for figuring this stuff out, based on maximal heartrate.

Anyways, you can start out doing about 30 min/day 2-3 days/week of CO work in the 120-140 HR range. Then, increase volume, frequency, and/or intensity as needed for further adaptations. You can work up to 60 min/day. CO work may feel like it's doing nothing while you're doing it, but it helps tremendously in your fights. If you're not doing much MMA training, you should start off with 3 days/week. Otherwise, 2 days/week may be adequate to start, since MMA training tends to be somewhat aerobic already.

You should test your resting HR periodically to track your progress. If you don't have a heartrate monitor, CO work is basically LSD. It is not intense at all. It's just an extremely slow jog, or a semifast bike ride. You can go 5 beats/min lower when you're on a bike, since you're seated as opposed to standing. It's better to error on the lower end of intensity if you don't have a heartrate monitor, since you can monitor your resting heartrate and adjust the intensity accordingly. If you're unconditioned, your CO will increase with even light work. Plus, stroke volume tops off at about 60% of maximal heartrate.

Brian Lawyer
12-08-2009, 12:11 PM
Layman terms Donald...j/k. I think I get what you are saying and it sounds like you are suggesting 2-3 days a week of 30min+ in what I would refer to as my zone 1 heart rate. You are correct when you said that would not feel like I was doing much because I actually do a similar workout for recovery when I am feeling really run down. I rotate between a bike and elliptical for 30 minutes in zone 1 then do some stretching afterwards and that would be all I do for that day. It usually helps a lot with my soreness but I never thought of it as something that would help cardio conditioning.

This is definitly contrary to the Crossfit/Ross Training GPP type work I've been doing to try to increase my cardio. Are you suggesting to just tack this 30minutes at the end of a strength workout or MMA training day?

Donald Lee
12-08-2009, 12:25 PM
You could do that, but if you do it after a strength workout, do it many hours later. A strength workout gives the heart the opposite signal-to thicken rather than to stretch. If you're going to do it after a strength workout, you'd have to do it more often. It's better to just do cardio on off days or MMA days, unless your MMA was already highly aerobic. It may be hard to maintain all your strength training days, if you're lifting like 4 days/week. I'd temporarily lower it to maintenace levels-either 2 or 3 days/week. Those with lower levels of strength can work aerobic and strength together, but with higher levels of strength, it may interfere with your heart adaptations. I'm sure your heart is already pretty thick from strength training and short CrossFit metcons, which will make it harder to stretch anyways.

Brian Lawyer
12-08-2009, 12:30 PM
Strength is on hold and has been for about the last month or longer. I've been doing heavy squats and cleans maybe once per week in order to maintain and that is about it. I've got more strength than I can even use in the ring. If you haven't checked out the youtube on my training log, look at the October sparring session and you will see what I am talking about. I gave up about 30 seconds into round 2 because I literally had nothing left. It was an awful feeling!!

Brian Lawyer
12-08-2009, 01:03 PM
if you're lifting like 4 days/week. I'd temporarily lower it to maintenace levels-either 2 or 3 days/week. Those with lower levels of strength can work aerobic and strength together, but with higher levels of strength, it may interfere with your heart adaptations. I'm sure your heart is already pretty thick from strength training and short CrossFit metcons, which will make it harder to stretch anyways.

Here this should make it easier to lay out a program for me. Let's assume I am doing 1 day of MMA training and 2 days of strength training and I have roughly 4 days per week all together to train. I know Grissim would cringe at the thought of only 1 day a week of MMA training but let's face it I am a 30 year old CPA with family.

Strength days obviously consist of usually two exercises (squat, press, O'Lift) with 10min metcon at end.

MMA training day usually consists of 15 minutes of warmup that includes light sparring then several 3 minute intervals. We usually just set the timer for 3min on 1min rest. If I want to work gaurd escape, I will start in gaurd for a 3min round. If I want to work thai kicks I'll kick the pads for a 3 min round, etc. We just kind of drill through whatever we want to work on. Very informal.

So that is 3 days right there. So I could do a fourth day of 45 minutes in zone 1 hear rate or I could drop a strength day and two days of 45 minutes in zone 1.

Ideas...

Brian Lawyer
12-08-2009, 01:15 PM
...Anyways, you can start out doing about 30 min/day 2-3 days/week of CO work in the 120-140 HR range. Then, increase volume, frequency, and/or intensity as needed for further adaptations. You can work up to 60 min/day.

Donald, Is staying in zone 1 heart rate for 30-60min preferable over a 30minute jog. A 9min mile pace normally puts me in upper zone 2, if not lower zone 3, for 30minutes.

Donald Lee
12-08-2009, 01:17 PM
Drop strength training to 1 day/week, and try to get at least 3 days/week of CO work. CO work responds to frequency moreso than even strength. Usually, with endurance athletes, 3 days/week is the bare minimum they can get by with for just maintenance. You can also do some aerobic work during rest intervals within strength workouts as active recovery (i.e. jump roping, shadow boxing, light medicine ball stuff, etc.). Maybe you can try to get your kids to go out on a jog with you, if they're old enough.

Brian Lawyer
12-09-2009, 08:15 AM
Donald, Not that I didn't trust you, but you know how guys are on these forums....haha. I did my own research and found this article that corroborates what you were telling me to do. http://www.elitefts.com/documents/cardio_training_principles2.htm

Donald Lee
12-09-2009, 02:43 PM
Donald, Not that I didn't trust you, but you know how guys are on these forums....haha. I did my own research and found this article that corroborates what you were telling me to do. http://www.elitefts.com/documents/cardio_training_principles2.htm

Yeah...there's one other guy who also writes on Elite FTS who promotes similar stuff to Joel's, but I don't remember who he is.

Brian Lawyer
12-09-2009, 02:53 PM
Yeah...there's one other guy who also writes on Elite FTS who promotes similar stuff to Joel's, but I don't remember who he is.

I did my CO work today. I set my Polar heart rate monitor to a zone of 120 to 140 then proceeded to just wonder around the gym for 45 minutes. It went something like this:

Jump rope
Elliptical
Bike
Some different elliptical machine.
Jump rope
Yet another type of elliptical machine (this is the local Globo gym keep in mind I had plenty ellipticals to choose from.
More jump rope
Threw a medicine ball against the wall and floor.
Did some shadow boxing
Bike
Threw medicine ball around some more
Shadow box

Well you get the point. I did that for 45 minutes.... Sparring partners cancelled on me this week!! Sucks because there is a no-gi tourney Saturday that is only $20 to enter. If I would have had at least an hour of rolling around to polish my game I would have gone and done it.

Derek Simonds
12-14-2009, 07:18 AM
Where are you located Brian?

Brian Lawyer
12-14-2009, 02:20 PM
Where are you located Brian?

In the vicinity of Dallas, Texas.

I am really getting into Ross Enamait's materials lately. I came across a copy of his book Infinite Intensity and started incorporating some of his training ideas into my program. With some of my Christmas money I am going to get his other books and DVD.

Donald Lee
12-14-2009, 07:41 PM
In the vicinity of Dallas, Texas.

I am really getting into Ross Enamait's materials lately. I came across a copy of his book Infinite Intensity and started incorporating some of his training ideas into my program. With some of my Christmas money I am going to get his other books and DVD.

Does that mean you're done with the CO stuff? If you do get Ross' other stuff, the conditioning one is a good way to go. I'm warning you though. It's basically HIIT/metcons + strength training.

Brian Lawyer
12-15-2009, 05:54 AM
Does that mean you're done with the CO stuff? If you do get Ross' other stuff, the conditioning one is a good way to go. I'm warning you though. It's basically HIIT/metcons + strength training.

No I did my two days of CO last week and plan to do two days this week. I will update my training log for you to review. The link is in my signature. Subscribe to it if you want and I will attempt to keep in up to date. I have a journal I log my workouts in normally.

Donald Lee
12-15-2009, 12:06 PM
No I did my two days of CO last week and plan to do two days this week. I will update my training log for you to review. The link is in my signature. Subscribe to it if you want and I will attempt to keep in up to date. I have a journal I log my workouts in normally.

I'll try to keep track. I hope things turn out better in your upcoming fight

Tina Sisk
12-25-2010, 09:26 PM
I did my CO work today. I set my Polar heart rate monitor to a zone of 120 to 140 then proceeded to just wonder around the gym for 45 minutes. It went something like this:

Jump rope
Elliptical
Bike
Some different elliptical machine.
Jump rope
Yet another type of elliptical machine (this is the local Globo gym keep in mind I had plenty ellipticals to choose from.
More jump rope
Threw a medicine ball against the wall and floor.
Did some shadow boxing
Bike
Threw medicine ball around some more
Shadow box

Well you get the point. I did that for 45 minutes.... Sparring partners cancelled on me this week!! Sucks because there is a no-gi tourney Saturday that is only $20 to enter. If I would have had at least an hour of rolling around to polish my game I would have gone and done it.

Many MMA athletes will alternate times of weights and cardio, rest one complete day after which learn fighting skills and spar another six days every week. Therefore, an example schedule may mean Monday, weightlifting and wrestling; Tuesday, cardio and boxing; Wednesday, weightlifting and kicking; Thursday, cardio and boxing; Friday, weightlifting and sparring; Saturday, cardio and practicing a really weak area; then resting on Sunday. Obviously, every athlete differs. Some MMA athletes must work full-time, so their schedule is shortened. Other athletes possess a strong wrestling background therefore focus their attention on boxing, Tai boxing, kicking and punching. Your unique expertise, experiences and life situation will dictate your schedule.

Make use of an elliptical in your cardio days along with a stationary bike or treadmill. Many MMA gyms advocate running while using elliptical for 20 to 40 minutes, moving away from and performing other routines for example sit-ups or pushups, then jumping back on the elliptical for Twenty minutes, moving away from and perhaps carrying out a round of sparring or learning some techniques. This frantic, random group of activity emulates what are the body experiences during an MMA match.

Realize that the main reason many MMA athletes make use of an elliptical happens because they offer a great cardiovascular workout without jarring the joints or back. Many coaches believe running on the treadmill or on the grass or dirt track puts undue pressure on vital joints and recommend utilizing an elliptical (more elliptical workout (http://www.ellipticalmachines.net/elliptical-workout/) info here)

Grissim Connery
12-25-2010, 10:54 PM
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