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Jay Ashman
12-05-2009, 12:47 PM
On these supplements and their usefulness to an athlete and if they are really needed...


B-100
Cayenne
Ginkgo
Alpha Lipoic Acid
Acetyl L-Carnitine


I don't take a lot of stuff, but I am looking to keep my supplementation to the bare minimum to save money and cut back on usage.

I'm thinking my staples would be:

Fish Oil (12 g per day, Costco brand... helps with inflammation and lipid profile)
High Quality Multi (if anyone has a great suggestion that would encompass a good amount of B vitamins as well it would be great, I take a whole food vitamin but I want to hear if you guys have a great one that is low cost and good quality)
B-12
ZMA
Vitamin D (5000 iu a day)
Calcium


Help a brother out. :) thank you.

Jay Ashman
12-05-2009, 12:48 PM
and if you have any suggestions as to what you guys recommend, it would be appreciated as well... I'm looking to simplify and add to my health without overdoing it.

Jay Ashman
12-05-2009, 12:58 PM
I was checking out NSI's line of multis as well, they seem to be pretty decent for a good cost..

Steven Low
12-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Everything in your staples is good.

Everything else you asked about is generally useless.

The only things you really need beyond that are whey and/or creatine if you're looking for better performance.

Jay Ashman
12-05-2009, 04:47 PM
can you explain why you think that the asked about products would be useless? Isn't ALA and ALC two very beneficial supplements as far as fat metabolism and anti-oxidants go?

I'm looking for answers beyond google, because I do search and read, I want to hear people's opinions who train like I do.

Keep in mind I don't eat nearly as many veggies as I should so I tend to take the antioxidants to try to "make it somewhat ok" :D

isn't cayenne great for circulation as well?

Robert Johnson
12-06-2009, 03:51 AM
Cayenne is a food. Put it on vegetables.

John Alston
12-06-2009, 07:31 AM
Keep in mind I don't eat nearly as many veggies as I should so I tend to take the antioxidants to try to "make it somewhat ok"

Maybe this is more important than the pills.

Gittit Shwartz
12-06-2009, 10:39 AM
If you eat meat like most people on here, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't need the B12. Unless you have absorption issues, in that case fix 'em.

Steven Low
12-06-2009, 11:42 AM
You can if you want. Well, the studies have been kind of like Vitamin D where there's some benefit whereas if you piece together the information with D you can find out it's very critical. The rest aren't, so it's up to you if you wanna shell out the bucks for a potentially small if any benefit.

Tony Ferous
12-07-2009, 04:28 AM
You should definately work on eating more veggies, or perhaps berries if not to get most of of your antioxidants. Food is most important, but it was a supplement question....

Supp's really depend on how much $$ your prepared to part with and what your goals are.

•B-100 Get any extra B's from a multi
•Cayenne Eat as food as Rob said.
•Ginkgo maybe

The below 2 have some pretty compelling human evidence if you ask me, but are pricey.
•Alpha Lipoic Acid Make sure you get the R+ form or dont bother.
•Acetyl L-Carnitine


The staple all look sensible before getting into exotics like ala, alc, except B12(get from meat or multi), and why so much fish oil? 3-5g range is usually ok or take even less and top up with salmon/sardines.

Jay Ashman
12-07-2009, 07:08 AM
You should definately work on eating more veggies, or perhaps berries if not to get most of of your antioxidants. Food is most important, but it was a supplement question....I agree with you, and I should eat more veggies and berries for sure.

Supp's really depend on how much $$ your prepared to part with and what your goals are.

•B-100 Get any extra B's from a multi
•Cayenne Eat as food as Rob said.
•Ginkgo maybeI don't make a ton of money but I also have a nice connection that I get good prices from locally on top brands so I spend less than people may think.

Not many multis have a good b complex and quite frankly I believe that any multi that isn't a whole food product isn't well absorbed by the system. Cayenne as food can be a bit excessive to eat, I like hot things, but not all day...

The below 2 have some pretty compelling human evidence if you ask me, but are pricey.
•Alpha Lipoic Acid Make sure you get the R+ form or dont bother.
•Acetyl L-Carnitine Yes, these guys get pricey, I get them for cheaper but compared to other things they are still expensive. The evidence for this is staggering, which is why I only take ALA as an antioxidant. No need to overdo it..


The staple all look sensible before getting into exotics like ala, alc, except B12(get from meat or multi), and why so much fish oil? 3-5g range is usually ok or take even less and top up with salmon/sardines. I weigh 245 pounds. I take that much because of the recommendation of the amount per bodyweight as per Robb Wolf. It does work for me, my bloodwork proves it, plus I can't stand the taste of fish so this is the only way I get my fish oils.

I shop smart for my stuff, some of it I get at Costco because it is so damn cheap, the rest I get from my local retailer who takes care of me on top of their already good discounts, so I can't complain about that.

Garrett Smith
12-07-2009, 08:02 AM
There's a whole article I wrote for the PMenu on why you DON'T want to do cayenne pepper.

Mike ODonnell
12-07-2009, 08:18 AM
I would say in order of importance:

- Fish Oil (liquid)....although if you don't eat alot of nuts, sugar, omega 6s from grain fed animals and eat more sardines/herring....you may not need this at some point.

- Multi-Vit - this is a just an insurance policy vitamin, can't hurt and never know if you may need it. You probably pee out most of it, but oh well.

- Greens (powder) - if you don't eat a ton of veggies (like me) and eat more meats, it is a "just in case" to help keep your body from going too acidic.

- People have found ZMA to work for them (especially if you are more active) so you can try that.


other more popular supplements out there......

- Creatine can help boost strength a bit, and is generally cheap (if you get the plain form of it....not the over-hyped other kinds)

- Protein powders shouldn't even be considered unless you have someone that will not eat enough protein from real foods in the first place (and you need much less than you really think to build/maintain muscle)


Other than that.....eat real foods and plenty of them. There are plenty of people out there big/strong/fast that just eat real foods and have no idea what 99% of the things sold at GNC or on T-Nation are. Go buy a spice rack and get the anti-inflammatory/health benefits from all sorts of natural spices. Don't waste your money on supplements touting a 5% increase in performance when you are not elite enough to have found the other 95% yet.

Jay Ashman
12-07-2009, 07:45 PM
Mike, solid ideas... what Greens Powder would you think is good? I toyed with that idea before a few times.

Jay Ashman
12-07-2009, 07:45 PM
Garrett, what issue was that in? I have them all and I'd hate to have to sift through all of them to find it.

Jay Ashman
12-07-2009, 09:35 PM
Nevermind, found it and read it... I will stop taking the cayenne and see what happens. Good articles.

Mike ODonnell
12-08-2009, 09:12 AM
Mike, solid ideas... what Greens Powder would you think is good? I toyed with that idea before a few times.

I'm sure there are expensive ones out there....but no one really knows if one is better than the next. Greens+ seems to be a good brand, but lately I found one at Trader Joes (their brand) for $19, so I use that. It's just a security blanket that is all....so if its not the best out there, I'll still survive I am sure.

Ryan Secor
12-13-2009, 02:25 PM
Fish Oil (12 g per day, Costco brand... helps with inflammation and lipid profile)



Robb Wolf pointed out on Episode 2 of his podcast that Kirkland recently changed the labeling on their fish oil. It used to list the amount of DHA/EPA per serving... now here's what it says:

"Total Omega-3 (with EPA + DHA) 300mg"

The Costco website (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11072245&search=fish%20oil&Mo=5&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=fish%20oil&Ntt=fish%20oil&No=1&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1) says even more:
"Omega-3 fatty acids (EPA/DHA and other omega-3) 300mg"

Plus, as Robb pointed out, now it contains soy - which I'm guessing is from soybean oil... which in my understanding contains omega-3 fatty acids (though not dha/epa). So, I have a feeling their "natural fish oil concentrate" is simply nothing more than a euphemism for some omega-3's from soybean oil and a actual very small amount of EPA/DHA.

I'm personally dropping the Kirkland and switching over probably to Carlson's from Vitacost. I know there's a number of other fish oil brand suggestions out there but the Carlson's seems to be the best choice for quality/price - someone broke it down by price on Robb's comments under Podcast Episode 2. I don't know if anyone else has information on this... but it seems as if the days of super-cheap but good Kirkland fish oil are over.

All that to say from your list IMO it may be a good idea to fork over a bit more $ especially for the DHA/EPA than shell cash out on other things.

Jay Ashman
12-13-2009, 02:28 PM
son of a bitch... that isn't good news at all...

Ryan Secor
12-13-2009, 03:53 PM
Yeah - I thought the same thing. Supplement industry is pretty much completely bogus... I still have like 2 bottles left of the stuff. I figure it's not going to hurt, so I'll just finish it off and fork over the $ for the Carlsons.

On the subject of crappy supplements... Have you seen Bigger, Faster, Stronger before? They talk a bit about how companies make supplements - "pixie-dusting"/something else to dilute products and hiding it by labeling it as a "complex", "proprietary blend" or other creative wording. They then advertise it misleadingly... basically most everything is a sham...

BTW - Bigger, Faster, Stronger is streaming instantly from Netflix and I know you can get a number of clips on youtube.

Jay Ashman
12-13-2009, 05:00 PM
oh yes I saw that and I knew that part for a long time, hence why when I buy supplements it is the basics, not proprietary blends.

Its a great movie and poses a lot of moral questions about steroids as well..

Wayne Riddle
12-14-2009, 02:28 AM
Robb Wolf pointed out on Episode 2 of his podcast that Kirkland recently changed the labeling on their fish oil. It used to list the amount of DHA/EPA per serving... now here's what it says:

Costco carries different fish oil capsules under the Kirkland name, take a look at the Kirkland Signature Enteric Coated Fish Oil (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11248464&search=fish%20oil&Mo=5&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode%20matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=fish%20oil&Ntt=fish%20oil&No=3&s=1&Sp=S&topnav=&Nty=1) product.

Supplement Facts:
Serving Size: 1 Softgel
Amount Per Serving - % Daily Value:*
Calories 10, Calories from Fat 10, Total Fat 1 g - 2%, Cholesterol 10 mg - 3%, Fish Oil Concentrate 1200 mg, Omega 3 EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid)(as ethyl esters) 410 mg - **, Omega 3 DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid (as ethyl esters) 274 mg - **.

*Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.
**Daily Value not established.

Ingredients:
Fish Oil Concentrate, Gelatin (non-bovine), Glycerin, Water, Vanillin, Tocopherol.

May Also Contain:
Methacrylic Acid Copolymer, Ethylcellulose, Sodium Alginate, Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose Phthalate, Medium Chain Triglyceride, Triacetin, Oleic Acid, Stearic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Polyethylene Glycol.

Contains: Fish (Anchovy, Sardine) and Soy.

It does list soy but still breaks out the EPA and DHA amounts

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 05:54 AM
yea that was an option as well for me but wouldn't the soy be an issue in the long run or no?

Ryan Secor
12-14-2009, 10:15 AM
From the cost perspective here's the breakdown for several types of fish oil - originally in comments here from GabeK (http://robbwolf.com/?p=903&cpage=1#comments):

I did some quick math tonight…and found some interesting stuff amongst the fish oils I am familiar with:
Costco Non-Coated 400 Pill Bottle – $.08/gm EPA+DHA
Costco Coated 180 Pill Bottle – $.14/gm
Carlson’s Liquid Fish Oil 16.9oz – $.17/gm from VitaCost
Nordic Naturals Ultimate Omega Liquid 8oz – $.47/gm from VitaCost

I'd have to listen to the podcast again, but I think Robb mentioned that the less pure of a fish oil you get there's some possibility of GI issues (interestingly enough though he said you can't get mercury poisening from fish oil - didn't know that) and other issues that might arise... Personally, I think the Costco enteric brand might not be super-terrible if someone absolutely didn't want to drink it as a straight liquid. I'm going to try drinking it as a straight liquid and I don't even know if I'll be able to handle it. It may end up in my dog's food dish just like when I tried Greens+ haha.

Steven Low
12-14-2009, 10:56 AM
Here's the math on different fish oil brands by Jae Chung I believe:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmbiSG9xZH4adDFRU2txaTE5Nmxad25DR3FlMGxYM FE&hl=en

The one on iherb that I use (before the chart came out) is liquid ~.12 per 1000 mg EPA+DHA. Tastes decent.

http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Answer-Liquid-Omega-3-Deep-Sea-Fish-Oil-EPA-DHA-Natural-Orange-Flavor-16-fl-oz-480-ml/7908?at=0

Ryan Secor
12-14-2009, 01:02 PM
Here's the math on different fish oil brands by Jae Chung I believe:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmbiSG9xZH4adDFRU2txaTE5Nmxad25DR3FlMGxYM FE&hl=en

The one on iherb that I use (before the chart came out) is liquid ~.12 per 1000 mg EPA+DHA. Tastes decent.

http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Answer-Liquid-Omega-3-Deep-Sea-Fish-Oil-EPA-DHA-Natural-Orange-Flavor-16-fl-oz-480-ml/7908?at=0

Nice! Thanks for posting that.

Jay Ashman
12-15-2009, 02:04 PM
Thanks, Steve, that helps a ton.

Jay Ashman
12-15-2009, 07:00 PM
I'm going to try that brand out, Ryan. I take 12g of epa/dha per day, so I will lower it to 9 and work my way back up based on blood work and feel.