PDA

View Full Version : The real reason robb wolf was canned: Scientific rigor!


Greg Everett
12-10-2009, 01:57 PM
from the CF affiliate blog, dec 7th

"I’d long been concerned that our nutrition certification had increasingly become a forum for delivering nutritional homilies and was irrevocably separated from the purpose of making affiliates and their trainers more effective at molding and shaping their clients’ lives.

The battle, always one sided and started and argued solely for market distinction and financial gain by the CF nutrition cert chief over “quality of food vs. quantity” was itself a sign of a complete and total abnegation of the need or utility of an empirically based clinical nutrition.

Quality and quantity of food are vastly interdependent and adjusting both, or not, is an essential skill in the clnicians' arsenal. Taking a side in this debate proves, for me, a lack of clinical experience and scientific training. That's the view of our scientists and physicians, as well, BTW. That this debate was fabricated and then continued was a clarion call for restructuring and restaffing a nutrition program run aground.

In these muddied waters “weighing and measuring” was being heralded as a waste of time and entirely unnecessary. It was even offered that clients’ results don’t really improve until you stop trying to quantify the prescription and result. This, in total, is tantamount to an abdication of teaching affiliates and their trainers how to use food to maximize training efficacy.

The undeniable reality is that weighing and measuring clients, and teaching them to weigh, measure, and record their intake, coupled with periodic client assessment interviews where they’re re-weighed and measured is entirely indispensable to nutrition being a clinical science.

Scale, and tape measure, skin-fold calipers, or hydrostatic weighing need to be used to assess body composition. I’d recommend using them all. Sphygmomanometer competency and laboratory results on blood lipids are essential to your practice as well. We're going to teach the use of these tools and their significance.

The nutrition certification is going to be rebuilt as a two-day event that moves from the micro to the macro – from eicosanoids to macronutrients, to metabolic derangement, and on to prescription, assessment, and revision of prescription. We’re going to start with the theoretical underpinnings, quickly move to clinical practice and settings, and end with a live example of cooking quickly and simply, delicious and quantifiable fare. It is going to be taught by MD’s and PhD’s with vast clinical experience supported by staff also steeped in clinical experience and the culinary arts. This is a radical yet essential departure from past offerings.

The rationale for dismissing weighing and measuring (a perfect repudiation of quantitative methods in clinical nutrition) was publicly supported by offering that the Zone prescription lacks the accuracy to ideally meet the clients’ needs. What this view misses, shockingly, is that the chief value of the Zone prescription lies not in its accuracy, which frankly is often great, but in it’s precision. The Zone diet gives me precision in prescription of total caloric load and macronutrient breakout so that with careful weighing and measuring of the client we can nudge her to a better result. It really wouldn’t matter, ultimately, where you started, or whether you adjusted parameters, initially, in the wrong direction or not; what matters is that you know what you told them to eat, to what extent they complied, and what the results were. From that point and that point only can course correction be logically, scientifically offered. This all needs to be measured and even the subjective stuff needs to be recorded. This is a skill that needs to be taught to trainers in order for them to develop the clinical experience that will ultimately optimize their training capacity and maximize the commercial value of their craft.

Imagine the success of your training if you never knew the weight of the bar or client, didn’t count reps or sets, and never, ever, used a stopwatch. How would that have impacted the efficacy of your training? Ironically, a scientific answer to that question is not possible absent weighing, measuring, and recording what was not weighed, measured, or recorded.

I promise a better, more scientific, clinically relevant nutritional cert, a certification that leaves each attendee more capable to offer prescription and adjust that prescription to maximize results for their clients. It will be taught by professionals and as early on as possible, ANSI accredited. This certification is going to be about you and NOT about us. Thank you.

Comment #12 - Posted by: Coach at December 10, 2009 7:06 AM"


This could not be more erroneous and insulting, not only to Robb, but to anyone with a functioning brain.

Greg Everett
12-10-2009, 02:04 PM
robb's comment posted on the affiliate blog - we'll see how long that lasts...

http://www.cathletics.com/images/rwResponds.jpg

Brian DeGennaro
12-10-2009, 02:24 PM
That made me "lol". This is the first time I've ever heard of Glassman trusting someone actually in the field.

Kevin Perry
12-10-2009, 02:54 PM
Oh Gosh I don't know how to respond to this... yes I do

He's so full of it.

Patrick Donnelly
12-10-2009, 03:25 PM
So, how far did you guys get?

I only made it to here.
Scale, and tape measure, skin-fold calipers, or hydrostatic weighing need to be used to assess body composition. I’d recommend using them all.

Garrett Smith
12-10-2009, 03:31 PM
He'd recommend using those techniques on who, exactly?

Him and Barry?

Greg Everett
12-10-2009, 03:36 PM
Here you go -

In direct contradiction to Glassman's claim that the science was not present in Robb's seminars. Here is a video of Robb addressing precisely the issue Glassman used as an example - aldosterone/sodium/etc.

http://www.vimeo.com/8108227

Steven Low
12-10-2009, 04:56 PM
Epic.

Steve Romer
12-10-2009, 05:32 PM
Well at least they made an official statement and now I know I will never spend any more money that helps CFHQ earn a profit. I will not renew my CF Journal subscription or take any of their certs.

Why?

Because they broke their trust with me and I can not trust anything they say anymore. CFHQ will say or do anything that helps increase their profits whether or not it helps their clients or affiliates.

Tom Woodward
12-10-2009, 05:37 PM
The over/under on IGX page jumps today has to be at least 3.

Off to check...

Tom Woodward
12-10-2009, 05:40 PM
CrossFit Zone Bars and Pukie Recovery Shakes coming to a store near you in the next few years.

Allen Yeh
12-10-2009, 06:58 PM
I had a feeling they would begin a character assassination on me because this is exactly what they did when I left CrossFit in the past. I’ll be looking at the character of Greg Glassman and why I previously left CF in subsequent posts.

Robb in his blog....

Yep, I'm surprised they have actually taken this long.

David Dalpiaz
12-10-2009, 07:48 PM
The over/under on IGX page jumps today has to be at least 3.

Off to check...

If we're lucky, this might put it over 500 total.

James Evans
12-11-2009, 05:17 AM
History repeats itself.

Statement is made that Robb isn't very good.

Remember this from the horse's mouth?

Dan John is a clown and not a good coach.

Mark Twight was rubbish at CrossFit when he....um...first tried CrossFit. Now he peddles CrossFitLite.

Move on people, nothing going on, Coach has told you that these people aren't worth the fuss. Or at least I think that's what he said because he dresses everything up with a pseudo-intellectual complexity that makes stupid people think he's a genius.

The danger is that many people hear the party line. And that's all they know. And then you get the absolute bullshit that filters across the internetz:

Heard not from the horse's mouth but somewhere down the stable yard in a whisper:

That guy Ross Enamait stole all his ideas from CrossFit. Coach confronted him about it and he confessed.

That was actually posted on this website, I kid you not.

Robb and Greg = Good People.

Gary Ohm
12-11-2009, 05:27 AM
I would pay per view to see glassman confront Ross in a dark alley about anything...

Danny John
12-11-2009, 05:58 AM
The video, considering how pointed the criticism, seems pretty funny in the context of all of this. A small note about my clownish coaching: part of the problem I had/have when working with the affiliates is that, especially with the O lifts, a man who snatches 65/85/95 pounds doesn't need advanced (elite!) training or technical points. Really, most need to simply "jump" or get the timing right. If crossfit comes up with a male who snatches in excess of 300, I can give them more advanced advice. (Honestly, I'm not sure the difference would be much. Curtis White once gave me this advice: "Pull the bar faster." It works.)

Robb remains one of my great mentors in life. He broke down nutrition for me at lunch one day in such a simple way that I honestly don't even know why we take more than five minutes for the nutrition workshop. I'm sad about these events, but I know many people (not the ones mentioned) who have been left holding the bag for the idiocy of "the one(s) who shall not be named." I sat with a young man who had to put himself on report for some of the behaviors of this group and it amazed me that no one stepped up to claim fault. I should run a service or 12 step program for those afflicted.

I'm off to go salt my food.

Scott Dyck
12-11-2009, 06:16 AM
History repeats itself.

Statement is made that Robb isn't very good.

Remember this from the horse's mouth?

Dan John is a clown and not a good coach.

Mark Twight was rubbish at CrossFit when he....um...first tried CrossFit. Now he peddles CrossFitLite.

Move on people, nothing going on, Coach has told you that these people aren't worth the fuss. Or at least I think that's what he said because he dresses everything up with a pseudo-intellectual complexity that makes stupid people think he's a genius.
The danger is that many people hear the party line. And that's all they know. And then you get the absolute bullshit that filters across the internetz:

Heard not from the horse's mouth but somewhere down the stable yard in a whisper:

That guy Ross Enamait stole all his ideas from CrossFit. Coach confronted him about it and he confessed.

That was actually posted on this website, I kid you not.

Robb and Greg = Good People.

Yes. Along with Jeff Glassman and Barry Cooper, he completes the Holy Triumvirate of Thesaurus-Aided Condescension.

James Evans
12-11-2009, 06:22 AM
The video, considering how pointed the criticism, seems pretty funny in the context of all of this. A small note about my clownish coaching: part of the problem I had/have when working with the affiliates is that, especially with the O lifts, a man who snatches 65/85/95 pounds doesn't need advanced (elite!) training or technical points. Really, most need to simply "jump" or get the timing right. If crossfit comes up with a male who snatches in excess of 300, I can give them more advanced advice. (Honestly, I'm not sure the difference would be much. Curtis White once gave me this advice: "Pull the bar faster." It works.)



That's the whole problem isn't it Dan? Unless you behave like a sociology undergrad trying to impress his lecturers at the faculty drinks (key: drop words like empiricism into every other sentence) then you are clearly a clown.

Or you can just find your back up against the wall and call someone an asshole (see Josh Hollis).

CrossFit calls for quality and qualification. Yet we have people who have no understanding of how the human body works (google eccentric hypertrophy).

You know what, for all the talking we do, all the reading we do (although how much we actually understand is another matter) this really shouldn't be that hard.

I prefer the clowns.

More salt.

James Evans
12-11-2009, 06:29 AM
This is one of my bugbears - modal domains. From Ross' boards (aka Ross battles the teenagers via teh internetz)

Quote: its meant to be across broad modal domains

(Ross in reply): If I deadlift, I prefer the heavy as fuck domain

Greg Everett
12-11-2009, 07:55 AM
And they've deleted all of the good comments and locked the page on the affiliate blog post. Shocking. Fortunately, they did allow a few more glassman-defending posts in there before shutting it down.

Mike ODonnell
12-11-2009, 08:03 AM
I think Robb needs to pull a Jerry Mcguire and steal a fish from HQ and yell "Who's coming with me?"

....him and his Harry Potter based nutritional wizardy....pffffft.

Danny John
12-11-2009, 08:38 AM
Fortunately, the irongarmx guys learned this years ago and keep copies. I remember when Greg had all the pro-Dan John posts deleted but kept his insightful attacks on my character, my faith tradition and my ability to coach. I have certainly forgotten about all of this...

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 08:42 AM
I can understand Coach's desire for the weighing and measuring, even if I don't agree with it for obvious reasons. What I don't understand is the need for a public reply that will be taken as an insult to Robb. Even if everything in his statement is true, Robb is still an affiliate and I think that personal matters should be dealt with behind the scenes and the juicy details be kept to those involved. Even if Robb wasn't an affiliate, it can be taken as character assassination and that can backfire.

It just makes for a nasty he said/she said situation that will just snowball.

The fact is that quality AND quantity should go hand in hand. I don't care if people want to Zone, if it works for them, great, but don't tell me that zoning with a tortilla shell is going to be as effective as zoning with a handful of strawberries.

What I would love to see is for all parties directly involved in this to hash it out in a conference call or via meeting and deal with it. The internet only makes shit worse and just separates people along the lines of Robb's side/HQ's side.

I respect them both and there really isn't any easy solution to this other than all parties meeting up.

Its a shame it had to come to this...

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 08:50 AM
Dan, I use your methods a ton, been following your articles for years, read your latest book as well and use your ideas frequently in my own training, your way of keeping things simple and effective speaks clearly as to your intelligence.

You don't need to throw out complex charts, graphs and stats. You get the point across in a way everyone can understand, and that is how it should be done.

Dave Van Skike
12-11-2009, 09:00 AM
luuuuulllllzzzzz.

Brian DeGennaro
12-11-2009, 09:48 AM
I think Glassman also forgets that everyone attending these "Nutrition" certs are looking to simply meet Robb in one aspect and learn simple/easy things that they can apply for themselves and others (seriously, how many people there are going to have PhD's and a lot of background in nutritional studies, or even want to learn all that crap in 2 days?). Very few people in CF actually care or know about the hard science that goes on with eating foods, hence why Robb simplifies it quite a lot. You seriously cannot expect anyone to attend a Nutrition cert and know exactly what any of the jargon means unless you have attended chemistry and nutrition classes before.

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 09:52 AM
I think Glassman also forgets that everyone attending these "Nutrition" certs are looking to simply meet Robb in one aspect and learn simple/easy things that they can apply for themselves and others (seriously, how many people there are going to have PhD's and a lot of background in nutritional studies, or even want to learn all that crap in 2 days?). Very few people in CF actually care or know about the hard science that goes on with eating foods, hence why Robb simplifies it quite a lot. You seriously cannot expect anyone to attend a Nutrition cert and know exactly what any of the jargon means unless you have attended chemistry and nutrition classes before.

exactly, I agree 100%... and thus lies the genius in Robb, he is able to make the complex simple so everyone can grasp the basic concepts.

Arien Malec
12-11-2009, 09:59 AM
The big issue for me here isn't whether @FHQ wants to promote the Zone as their nutritional cert. It would be understandable and well within their business interest to do so. The issue for me is the lack of decency and honesty with which this was done.

If you follow the events and logic, one or both of the two must be true:

1) Castro was out of line and ranted, raved, and fired Robb on his own accord, and @FHQ didn't have the decency to correct things and make nice OR
2) @FHQ wanted to replace Robb by Sears anyway, and wasn't honest enough to come out and say it, so they sent Castro to stir shit up to force a break and blame it on Robb being an evil agent set to destroy @F.

Then, post hoc, the @FHQ "leader" used character assassination to justify the outcome.

The IGx folks have been far too polite. If they would stop wanking around trolling blogs and dissing each other, and would instead unleash pure hate, bile and evil, I'll bring the popcorn.

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 10:22 AM
the problem with IGX is the hate and bile, that is so counterproductive and juvenile... ultimately it comes off so immature that any message they may want to get across is buried in the pile of idiocy they post about.

There are so many better ways to improve upon a product/service than acting like 3rd graders...

Dave Van Skike
12-11-2009, 10:54 AM
i would guess that no one at IGX gives a rat's ass about productive and don't think crossfit warrants the attention to improve it let alone save it. plus, mature is overrated.

Danny John
12-11-2009, 10:54 AM
Fourth graders?

Craig Brown
12-11-2009, 10:59 AM
plus, mature is overrated.

My thoughts exactly.

Arien Malec
12-11-2009, 10:59 AM
Fourth graders?

Hey, I had IGx at the precocious 14 yo level, which is all the way at 9th grade...

Gant Grimes
12-11-2009, 11:08 AM
i would guess that no one at IGX gives a rat's ass about productive and don't think crossfit warrants the attention to improve it let alone save it. plus, mature is overrated.

Indeed. As a member of the Libertarian party and IGX, I realize my conversations are politically irrelevant and sometimes counterproductive but largely correct.

Aaron Austin
12-11-2009, 11:10 AM
I think IGx is better than TV - but I live in Canada so I might not get all the channels. Jay, I think you're just mad about being a "featured performer" there.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-11-2009, 11:32 AM
Fourth graders?

Damdest best writing and humorous fourth grader's I've seen since Kyle, Kenny, Stan and Cartman.

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-11-2009, 11:33 AM
Hey, I had IGx at the precocious 14 yo level, which is all the way at 9th grade...

Perhaps, but only as it relates to what they refer to as "the cooze." The hate and bile is set forth, primarily, in a very articulate and thought out manner.

All the best, Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-11-2009, 11:34 AM
Indeed. As a member of the Libertarian party and IGX, I realize my conversations are politically irrelevant and sometimes counterproductive but largely correct.

Oh Sweet Jesus, we have more in common than I ever realized!!!!!!!

all the best,
Arden

Kevin Perry
12-11-2009, 01:25 PM
Oh Sweet Jesus, we have more in common than I ever realized!!!!!!!

all the best,
Arden

Way to jump with excitement there Arden.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-11-2009, 01:42 PM
Way to jump with excitement there Arden.

Sorrry. :) I might just be his long lost brother, minus a chromosone or two.

All the best,
Arden

Dave Van Skike
12-11-2009, 02:06 PM
sorry to break it to you buddy, but I think you and all the other the deep cover IGX'ers are XYY variants.....predisposed to sweeping opinions and decisive actions...you know like most sociopaths.

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 02:49 PM
well posting anonymously under a pseudonym usually tends to bring out the worst in people... its like a frat party filled with cheap alcohol. It just keeps piling on and on and on. Take away the hate, the juvenile stupidity and the retarded shit and have a decent conversation about it and it may actually get places. Nothing says idiocy like posting shit on people's blogs, on the affilate blog and making fun of pics of CrossFitters quite like that...

They think they are being funny when all they are doing is making themselves look like retards.

Yes, I read that thread, of course... I'm mentioned in it and I thank them for the coverage.

Anyway... back to the topic at hand...

I think this whole situation with Robb and HQ is a tragedy. Who the hell knows the real story and we will never know. I just wish that it would die down, let HQ do their thing and Robb do his thing and all parties are happy. If people want to follow whatever doctrine they want to, that is great. All I know is that if I want a Nutrition lecture, I will go to Robb's. If I want a Olympic Lifting seminar, I will go to USAW because of the testing involved, not for nothing, but with Oly Lifting I want to be tested and not just pay and given a cert.

I know Robb will be a success, he has the name and pedigree to back up what he needs to do, and whenever he has his own Nutrition Seminar, I will sign up for that, not Barry Sears...

Tom Rawls
12-11-2009, 04:30 PM
Oh Sweet Jesus, we have more in common than I ever realized!!!!!!!

all the best,
Arden

I figured Gant was over there. I also thought Arden was too nice to do more than visit. I like peeping through the knothole.

As for Serious Jay, those guys can be incisive, as well as juvenile, but if after paying a little bit of attention the the couch thread you can still take x-fit seriously, then you really haven't been paying attention.

As for Glassman, he has a history of making personal attacks and has earned the opprobrium that comes his way.

Grissim Connery
12-11-2009, 05:10 PM
as much attention as a i pay to this whole subculture, i never really focus on the drama that goes on with the people. all this kinda blind sided me, so i just went reading a bit and read some of the black box summit stuff.

this could easily open up a bad discussion, but could people kinda summarize some of the key people in the organizations (especially dave castro)? ex: background, opinions, biases, goals, etc.

links to this stuff would be fine, like the gym jones stuff which i don't really know about.

my reason for wanting to know this: i hate it when i off handedly mention some high name person to another high level guy, and then find out that they have beef. For example, i didn't know about the Mike Fowler and Daniel Moraes incident. i have 2 instructors in different states that i really respect but are on either side of the issue.

another example: i met steve maxwell but didn't know he left the dragondoor organization...

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-11-2009, 06:09 PM
I also thought Arden was too nice to do more than visit.

.

Thanks Tom.

Got guilted into it. It's hard to remain positive all the time. Only got **itty once in the times I've been there. However, since the BBS I can't stop reading the Couch Thread. I truly never knew a lot of stuff and never cared about any of it. And to be honest, I still don't care. I am saddened by the whole travesty. I've been an avid Xfit supporter for a long time and will continue to help anyone on my own time. I love fitness/strength training/folk who are willing to push their respective envelopes. I love being associated with that folk as we are kindred spirits; it keeps me young and focused. It just sucks to get bogged down in things that really shouldn't matter.

When I put on my lawyer hat, it stinks. Hell, don't even have to put on my lawyer hat to feel that way.

A lot of what's being said that's been thrust into that thread is absolutely hysterical when taken apart and analyzed. It's a good brain break from the billiable hour as I normally end up chuckling and simply shaking my head.

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-11-2009, 06:15 PM
sorry to break it to you buddy, but I think you and all the other the deep cover IGX'ers are XYY variants.....predisposed to sweeping opinions and decisive actions...you know like most sociopaths.

Dave,
I rarely express opinions on anything. Mainly because I don't give a rats ass. I just want to lift, push myself, and have fun. But I must admit that I am saddened by this entire thing. And the Levity helps me accept it for what's it worth. Doesn't change my opinion/thoughts/love for the community - everyone I've met through crossfit is great folk. Got me into olympic lifting. Got me to PM. Got me to my coach. I'm very thankful.

They're having Xfit Total day on New Years day at one of our local boxes, I'm genuinely excited about going.

All the best,
Arden

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 06:25 PM
Tom, I take my own business seriously.... I'll make my own decisions, and I don't need anyone telling me I haven't been paying attention, thank you. I do what is best for my goals and I do my best to steer clear of unnecessary drama and bullshit.

If I was personally involved with this situation, it would be different, but I am not; so there isn't any reason for me to fire off and take sides.

I'll stick to my side.

CrossFit is a damn good system, do I agree with mainsite all the time, hell no. I am about as unlikely as a CrossFitter as one gets. I'm big, strong, come from a strength background, played a shitload of sports (some at a very high level). I look at CrossFit as a tool in my arsenal for training. Its not the be-all-end-all of existence, but I will say that I met a lot of people in the community who are fantastic and supportive as hell, and CF has changed a lot of lives for the better.

So if you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, feel free. I choose to ignore the petty personal squabbles and concentrate on the good shit. What HQ does or doesn't do makes no difference to me, ultimately its how I run my business and my training which will pay my bills and make my clients happy.

Dave Van Skike
12-11-2009, 06:37 PM
Dave,
I rarely express opinions on anything. Mainly because I don't give a rats ass. I just want to lift, push myself, and have fun. But I must admit that I am saddened by this entire thing. And the Levity helps me accept it for what's it worth. Doesn't change my opinion/thoughts/love for the community - everyone I've met through crossfit is great folk. Got me into olympic lifting. Got me to PM. Got me to my coach. I'm very thankful.

They're having Xfit Total day on New Years day at one of our local boxes, I'm genuinely excited about going.

All the best,
Arden


i care deeply about the stuff i don't care about!:)
but i am a sociopath so it's not my fault.


hey, i'll fess up. i got turned onto krazyballs from a closet crossfitter and rehabbed my knees form ground zero to funktion junction by training with an oly lifter...i hold no ill will towards the people who are genuinely all in with what they're doing, it's the oversell and undertruth that chaps me...that and the fact that the only thing revolutionary is the sell, not the "program"

wish the crossfit total was called something else because it's a great idea.

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 06:42 PM
Dave, that's why good affiliates exist, and so do good trainers... a lot of us don't care about the sell, we care about results.

Andy Robinson
12-11-2009, 07:17 PM
the problem with IGX is the hate and bile, that is so counterproductive and juvenile... ultimately it comes off so immature that any message they may want to get across is buried in the pile of idiocy they post about.

There are so many better ways to improve upon a product/service than acting like 3rd graders...

Really? I thought that was the appeal.

Tom Rawls
12-11-2009, 07:23 PM
CrossFit is a damn good system, do I agree with mainsite all the time, hell no. I am about as unlikely as a CrossFitter as one gets. I'm big, strong, come from a strength background, played a shitload of sports (some at a very high level). I look at CrossFit as a tool in my arsenal for training. Its not the be-all-end-all of existence, but I will say that I met a lot of people in the community who are fantastic and supportive as hell, and CF has changed a lot of lives for the better.

So if you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, feel free. I choose to ignore the petty personal squabbles and concentrate on the good shit.

Jay,

Crossfit as a tool in the toolbag isn't all that different from how we were training in the offseason back in the 60s, but that isn't "crossfit" as described by the main site, is it?

When Glassman randomly attacks a friend and tries to get him fired, that's not "petty."

Hence my animus.

Tom

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 07:36 PM
Jay,

Crossfit as a tool in the toolbag isn't all that different from how we were training in the offseason back in the 60s, but that isn't "crossfit" as described by the main site, is it?

When Glassman randomly attacks a friend and tries to get him fired, that's not "petty."

Hence my animus.

Tom

It may be, but the marketing power behind CrossFit is quite vast, if some guy from the 60's would have thought of doing that it'd be different... you can't dispute that at all.

And I agree about random attacks, but I am sure there is a lot more to the story than just a random attack. There may have been some bad blood brewing for a long time that goes beyond Zone/Paleo, in fact I am sure there was.

I'm not fighting another's battle for them. Robb has my support, he is a great guy, but I see no reason to run behind anyone with a torch lit joining the riot squad. Maybe that sounds selfish, but I accept that. I can support Robb and be a part of CF at the same time. I don't work for HQ, I have no desire to ever work for HQ. What I have is a desire to make my own piece of the pie successful and train my clients well, which I do.

I understand people who do jump on one side or the other, that is their right and one I am not going to argue against. I just think the way that IGX posters are going about doing it is pretty goddamn stupid. Instead of sticking to the issues they feel are pertinent its just silly after a while.

Andy, that may be the appeal to some, but to most its actually laughable. There are a lot of great people in CF that are getting insulted because of the hate for one person ultimately. That's like hating England because you think the Beatles suck.

Tom Rawls
12-11-2009, 07:49 PM
It may be, but the marketing power behind CrossFit is quite vast, if some guy from the 60's would have thought of doing that it'd be different... you can't dispute that at all.

. . .

And I agree about random attacks, but I am sure there is a lot more to the story than just a random attack. There may have been some bad blood brewing for a long time that goes beyond Zone/Paleo, in fact I am sure there was.

. . .

That's like hating England because you think the Beatles suck.

Jay.

There's no disputing your first point.

The random attack to which I refer is unrelated to the current Robb Wolf matter.

I never was much of a Beatles fan, but that hasn't diminished my admiration of Dickens and George Eliot. That said, I'm small-minded: IGX amuses me.

Tom

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 07:51 PM
Jay.

There's no disputing your first point.

The random attack to which I refer is unrelated to the current Robb Wolf matter.

I never was much of a Beatles fan, but that hasn't diminished my admiration of Dickens and George Eliot. That said, I'm small-minded: IGX amuses me.

Tom
well if it referring to Dan John (which it may be, but I could be wrong) then I understand your point of view.

Oh IGX is amusing, I laugh for sure... I like small-minded humour, but at the end of the day its all it is. Its like an episode of "south park" you giggle at but does nothing to change anything.

And The Beatles are overrated. :)

Dave Van Skike
12-11-2009, 08:14 PM
well if it referring to Dan John (which it may be, but I could be wrong) then I understand your point of view.

Oh IGX is amusing, I laugh for sure... I like small-minded humour, but at the end of the day its all it is. Its like an episode of "south park" you giggle at but does nothing to change anything.

And The Beatles are overrated. :)

IGX doesn't change anyhting because nothing needs changing. the crossfit fireball was long anticipated and is now a source of great amusement over there.

i see your point about good trainers and good gyms. I know of one local place and i consider them to be outstanding and improving as they get further from the fold. i look forward to the continuing de-affiliation process of the many other gyms that are doing individual good work.

Jay Ashman
12-11-2009, 08:18 PM
I don't think a lot of good places will de-affiliate. If CF ever shits the bed with exposure and marketing, then that will happen. But CF is damn popular, and only gaining in popularity, so I will say 99.6% of the affiliates won't leave.

If HQ ever steps in and tells us how to run our individual businesses then I could see a problem, but they don't... and that is a good thing. Let the cream rise to the top and the ones that do shit work, fade away.

Patrick Donnelly
12-12-2009, 05:35 AM
CrossFit is a damn good system, do I agree with mainsite all the time, hell no. I am about as unlikely as a CrossFitter as one gets. I'm big, strong, come from a strength background, played a shitload of sports (some at a very high level). I look at CrossFit as a tool in my arsenal for training. Its not the be-all-end-all of existence, but I will say that I met a lot of people in the community who are fantastic and supportive as hell, and CF has changed a lot of lives for the better.

I'm just going to interject that I find that sentiment of yours hard to believe when your profile on your workout blog reads this:

I live CrossFit.

This is a lifestyle, a community and not just a workout system. Nowhere will you find the support system, the camaraderie and the positive attitudes you get by being a part of what we do.

I firmly believe in it 100% and the benefits of it combined with a Paleo Diet. Invariably we are the best advertisement for this program, nothing shows a better example of CrossFit than being a good example yourself.

Practice what you preach, train hard, motivate yourself and others will follow suit.

When did you write that blog profile?

Jay Ashman
12-12-2009, 05:58 AM
I do believe in it, the stuff works. Believing in a system and how it works is a LOT different than blindly following. If you actually read my workouts, you would see a trend of how I work out and my reasons for it. I don't do the mainsite nonsense, and I have (on more than one occasion) questioned the programming methods of mainsite... does that mean I should abandon HQ? No, it means that I feel I have a way that works better for me and for my clients.

Furthermore, does it say on that blog that "I worship the ground CF walks on" or "I follow everything CF does blindly"? Hmmmm? No, it doesn't. It says I love CrossFit, which I do, and I don't feel I have to ever apologize for that. Just like some people here love Oly Lifting and are damn good at it, keep at it... its what you love to do.

And tell me that I am wrong, tell me that thousands of people haven't changed their lives for the better from CrossFit, tell me that the few on IGX and here outnumber that people that are pleased with CrossFit, tell me. Tell me that you can look at what CrossFit has done to basically revolutionize fitness (and it has, because more and more people are jumping on) and say its all a joke.

Like I said, I don't care WHAT HQ does, I don't work for them, I don't answer to them and I don't ever have a desire to.

When did I write that? It was written a while ago and the basic thoughts remain the same.

Tom Gentleman
12-12-2009, 09:53 AM
LOL.

Jay Ashman, my man, take a couple Vicodins and relax.

IGX is not concerned with saving CrossFit because CrossFit is shit that does not deserve saving.

You are awesome bro.

Peace and Love!

Derek Simonds
12-12-2009, 10:25 AM
The only thing missing here is old whats his nuts the Moynihan Intsitute guy... I know he posted here once or twice before. Is he on IGX?

Mike ODonnell
12-12-2009, 10:31 AM
I'm betting the Louie Simmons experiment won't last long with HQ......cause I don't think he does the Zone.

Brandon Oto
12-12-2009, 10:33 AM
John Walsh... Rant at IGX.

Butch White
12-12-2009, 11:06 AM
The whole MEBB Summit fall-out appears to be less about Paleo vs. Zone and more about power, control and money. If three highly respected members of the CF community can host their own sold-out successful seminar outside the constraints of Glassman then CFHQ’s control of seminar content and, more importantly, the revenue stream, will ultimately diminish. Given GG’s pontifications on free markets (ideas, trainers, CF affiliates, seminars, whatever), the level of hypocrisy displayed in this scenario is absolutely incredible.

I am embarrassed to admit that I was once a CF main site devotee back in the day when Greg Everett was a CF bad ass and not the heavy-shit-lifting fat f-er he is now. The biggest positive outcome of my CF exposure was an introduction to Oly lifting, which of course lead me to Dan John, Burgener, G. Everett, CA Forum, the CA WOD's and all things OL related.

Additional perks since the Dan John fiasco: the humor and "insightful" comments on IGx and at The Moynihan Institute. I look forward to TMI's reopening.

Ganine Vanalst
12-12-2009, 01:11 PM
the level of hypocrisy displayed in this scenario is absolutely incredible.

Even more incredible is the number of people who can't see it or choose to ignore/deny/justify it.

Jay,

I am an affiliate who is deaffiliating. Am I a good affiliate and/or successful affiliate? No, and I won't be because I am not going to bother trying. It is not a lack of desire or motivation to be a good coach or trainer one day, I still have that aspiration. Right now I will own up to probably sucking as a trainer, but I know I have a lot to learn and will continue to do so. I don't know if I will ever consider myself good because there is always more to learn. Part of what I liked about CrossFit was what I perceived as a philosophy and movement that condemned the hypocrisy and misinformation prevalent in society regarding exercise and nutrition. I also liked that it appeared that affiliates genuinely supported one another. I was willing to overlook questionable claims (the deadlift claim, etc.), because I thought there was much more good than not in the movement. I was willing to support a cause I believed in. But the organization has shown itself, in my opinion, to be just as hypocritical as those they condemn, and further, threatened by the perceived success and independence of their affiliates. Why the fuck would I want to build a business around that? Why would I support a business entity who's tactics and actions alarm me and for which I have little respect? For marketing? Nah. If I am going to prostitute myself I'd much rather do if for something I fully believe in. And I have no need for a pimp that I have to worry about turning around and smacking me up a bit for mouthing off and out of fear I'm undercutting him and taking some of his action (BBS).

I suspect many people don't agree with CrossFit's HQ's rhetoric and dogma but want to ride the coattails of CrossFit's success. Some people have lamented that there are bad trainers/affiliates who will sully the CrossFit name and many are affiliating just for the money and don't truly care about what CrossFit supposedly represents. So fucking what? CrossFit HQ is encouraging being used or at least not objecting because in large part that is how they make their money. They are chasing away many who genuinely cared about what CrossFit was supposed to represent and are instead retaining those who either don't mind using CrossFit as a vehicle for promotion despite having serious misgivings over tactics, philosophy, claims, hypocrisy, programming (or lack thereof), etc., etc., or are too invested already to pull out, or are just too naive and blind to know any better. They are losing my affiliation fees and business because I don't want to support a business whose tactics I don't like despite what they can do for me via marketing.

Yea, they are growing and I am stupid in that I should stay in and use them for that alone. Speaking for myself I'd rather go it alone and have my conscience clear and not feel compelled to defend by association behaviors and actions I find too questionable and disagreeable. The training techniques existed before HQ (although they did organize it into one place and disseminated a lot of information to the general public and do deserve credit for that) and those techniques are used by many outside CrossFit. CrossFit is not needed for their application.

Dave,

I am in your neck of the woods (PNW/Seattle area). You mentioned a good affiliate in the area. If you get a sec and can PM me the affiliate (or post the name) I'd appreciate it. I work out alone but would like to find a good gym in the area for the future. Thanks!

Jay Ashman
12-12-2009, 01:25 PM
LOL.

Jay Ashman, my man, take a couple Vicodins and relax.

IGX is not concerned with saving CrossFit because CrossFit is shit that does not deserve saving.

You are awesome bro.

Peace and Love!
Vicodins? How about Valium :D

Ganine, that is your right and I can't say you are wrong in that. But you are one out of a thousand plus, so your story isn't like the rest of them. I respect you for believing how you believe and you made the right choice for you, and that is a good thing.

I just make the right choice for me as well. I control my own programming, I teach the lifts the way I always have since I was in my mid 20's (I am 35 now), I don't rely on CrossFit to educate me. I educated myself and will continue to educate myself. If I choose to go to a CF cert for education it would probably be a cert that Burgener teaches (Oly) just because he has produced champions. I have no need to go to a barbell cert because, quite frankly, I don't need help in that area. My point is, you don't need to rely on CF or agree with everything HQ does to educate yourself or be a part of this community.

I hope you do well with it, Ganine, I choose to affiliate because I use a lot of CF methods in my training and it would be irresponsible of me not to take advantage of the opportunity I have to expand my business and also give credit where credit is due.

Believe me, my 2000 affiliation fee isn't going to make or break them; however, it will help my business and marketing plan a ton.

Ganine Vanalst
12-12-2009, 02:29 PM
Thanks, Jay, I wish you success as well with the path you are choosing. One other thing I will add...if you are traveling down a particular road/path and start to see a lot of corpses on the side of the road, it might be prudent to rethink your path.

In reference to being one voice among over a thousand, I often wonder where all those other voices are and why we don't hear from many. On the private affiliate section of the board there are a handful of affiliates who participate relatively often, but it baffles me that the rest are so silent on many issues of major importance (like the RRG and this BBS thing). Sort of begs the question, why? Where are the voices of many of the long-term affiliates (other than Robb, Greg, GreySkull, and the few others)? Where do they stand on these issues vital to the community?

Even on the public affiliate blog the participation is negligible compared to the number of affiliates. I suppose a good argument can be made that they are busy training and don't have time to participate. But then how can the community improve as a whole if many affiliates are divorced from the bigger picture? The fact that most affiliates don't actively participate leads one to many conclusions that may or may not be accurate, but by their silence we may never really know the real reasons. I personally find there to be something ominous in the silence.

Jay Ashman
12-12-2009, 03:38 PM
because a lot of affiliates are either doing two things:

1. staying out of the drama
2. training people

And I highly doubt there are a lot of corpses on the side of the road, this isn't the "beginning of the end", a setback and bad PR, yes... but both sides will overcome and do what they always do.

All I know is, I cannot WAIT for a Robb Wolf Nutrition Seminar, I will definitely be going to that one, as long as he comes out east for it. :)

Patrick Donnelly
12-12-2009, 04:00 PM
This thread is wacko.

Jay Ashman
12-12-2009, 04:05 PM
Mike, it IS going to be interesting to see Louie with CrossFit. I met Louie years ago, he has a strong personality and doesn't seem like the kind of guy to tolerate bullshit from anyone at all...

Dave Van Skike
12-12-2009, 07:47 PM
Dave,

I am in your neck of the woods (PNW/Seattle area). You mentioned a good affiliate in the area. If you get a sec and can PM me the affiliate (or post the name) I'd appreciate it. I work out alone but would like to find a good gym in the area for the future. Thanks!

i lied...i know of two very good places. one is locals' gym in lynwood. run by jesse ward. he's got a number of die hard koolaiders and yet manages to keep it all together. he hosted a great highlander comp this summer and is doing a PL meet in january.

another is rainier crossfit, run by kurtis bowler. i've never been but i know many who have and kurtis himself puts on a great local strongman show and competes as well. i have competed against him and seen his crew at local meets. i would recommend either place regardless of denomination and without reservation.

this is not a slam on any other local place. i just have no direct positive experience with the people at any of the others.

Ganine Vanalst
12-12-2009, 08:20 PM
i lied...i know of two very good places. one is locals' gym in lynwood. run by jesse ward. he's got a number of die hard koolaiders and yet manages to keep it all together. he hosted a great highlander comp this summer and is doing a PL meet in january.

another is rainier crossfit, run by kurtis bowler. i've never been but i know many who have and kurtis himself puts on a great local strongman show and competes as well. i have competed against him and seen his crew at local meets. i would recommend either place regardless of denomination and without reservation.

this is not a slam on any other local place. i just have no direct positive experience with the people at any of the others.

Thanks, Dave, I appreciate the reply.

George Mounce
12-12-2009, 09:34 PM
Kool-aid is sugar (not-Paleo btw) coloring, a bit of artificial flavor; too many people drink that cheap stuff.

I agree with Patrick, too much Kool-aid here.

Gavin Harrison
12-12-2009, 11:50 PM
Kool-aid is sugar (not-Paleo btw) coloring, a bit of artificial flavor; too many people drink that cheap stuff.

I agree with Patrick, too much Kool-aid here.

Blue Raspberry Lemonade is the best Kool-Aid flavor.

Jay Ashman
12-13-2009, 02:19 AM
you cannot go wrong at all with Rainier CrossFit, top notch place... from what I understand and have heard, it is a great place to train and the coaching is stellar.

Mike ODonnell
12-13-2009, 10:24 AM
Kool-aid is sugar (not-Paleo btw) coloring, a bit of artificial flavor; too many people drink that cheap stuff.

I agree with Patrick, too much Kool-aid here.

Kool-Aid is not Zone approved....or is it?

Brian DeGennaro
12-13-2009, 10:40 AM
I was thinking about this weighing and measuring in regards to performance, so let me throw out what foods, weighed and measured every day, maximize my performance:

- 2lbs+ of beef/poultry
- 2lbs+ of vegetables
- Half gallon of whole milk
- a whole cantaloupe
- 12oz of sliced almonds

How many blocks is that?

George Mounce
12-13-2009, 10:47 AM
I was thinking about this weighing and measuring in regards to performance, so let me throw out what foods, weighed and measured every day, maximize my performance:

- 2lbs+ of beef/poultry
- 2lbs+ of vegetables
- Half gallon of whole milk
- a whole cantaloupe
- 12oz of sliced almonds

How many blocks is that?

That would be quite a few Legos I'd imagine.

George Mounce
12-13-2009, 10:47 AM
Blue Raspberry Lemonade is the best Kool-Aid flavor.

I disagree, Lime is the best. Old school original flavors are the bomb.

Arien Malec
12-13-2009, 11:08 AM
I disagree, Lime is the best. Old school original flavors are the bomb.

No way. Paleo koolaid, like the goddamn cavemen used to eat. Berries mashed up with some pond water for maximum antioxidant and mineral power.

Arien Malec
12-13-2009, 11:24 AM
Paleo koolaid.

Wait, no, I didn't mean that. I take it back. I'm still in the club, right?

Brandon Oto
12-13-2009, 12:12 PM
I was thinking about this weighing and measuring in regards to performance, so let me throw out what foods, weighed and measured every day, maximize my performance:

- 2lbs+ of beef/poultry
- 2lbs+ of vegetables
- Half gallon of whole milk
- a whole cantaloupe
- 12oz of sliced almonds

How many blocks is that?

Who cares... how many DOLLARS is that?

Craig Brown
12-13-2009, 12:13 PM
I've worked with Level 4 and it is solid, and have visited CF Eastside and they are killer. Kurtis has a good operation.

Kevin Perry
12-13-2009, 12:23 PM
Who cares... how many DOLLARS is that?

Seriously, I'm all for healthy eating and as close to "Paleo" as possible, but anyone who is severely affected by this economy right now and barely makes enough to pay the bills can tell you eating that way is the very last thing on their minds.

Brian DeGennaro
12-13-2009, 01:22 PM
Buy the cow, it's like $2/lb of grassfed beef when you buy in bulk.

Jay Ashman
12-13-2009, 01:22 PM
I was thinking about this weighing and measuring in regards to performance, so let me throw out what foods, weighed and measured every day, maximize my performance:

- 2lbs+ of beef/poultry
- 2lbs+ of vegetables
- Half gallon of whole milk
- a whole cantaloupe
- 12oz of sliced almonds

How many blocks is that?

:eek: and you weigh what my leg weighs... :D

I like this menu

Jay Ashman
12-13-2009, 01:45 PM
Buy the cow, it's like $2/lb of grassfed beef when you buy in bulk.

Brian, can you help me out with a good source for that, please? I want to do that, save some money and eat healthier. It would be appreciated.

Ganine Vanalst
12-13-2009, 03:18 PM
Thanks Jay and Craig for the additional feedback and suggestions. I took my L1 at Rainier but would prefer a different gym for reasons I'd rather not go into. I did my barbell cert at Eastside and wouldn't mind going there, but they are a bit far from me. Not married to the idea of a CrossFit gym. I'm thinking of checking out Thrush Performance Center in Sumner one of these days for some coaching but it is difficult to get info online about the place.

Seriously, I'm all for healthy eating and as close to "Paleo" as possible, but anyone who is severely affected by this economy right now and barely makes enough to pay the bills can tell you eating that way is the very last thing on their minds.

Tell me about it. I am considering letting my pit bull and blue heeler chase the squirrels they have been so desperate to go after. I assume squirrel is paleo. Any good squirrel recipes? I've also got 3 cats, so I figure I'm sitting on a lot of hunting power I might have to start putting to good use.

Greg Everett
12-13-2009, 03:43 PM
I'm thinking of checking out Thrush Performance Center in Sumner one of these days for some coaching but it is difficult to get info online about the place.

John Thrush is an excellent coach. I would send anyone there in a heartbeat.

Donald Lee
12-13-2009, 03:43 PM
Thanks Jay and Craig for the additional feedback and suggestions. I took my L1 at Rainier but would prefer a different gym for reasons I'd rather not go into. I did my barbell cert at Eastside and wouldn't mind going there, but they are a bit far from me. Not married to the idea of a CrossFit gym. I'm thinking of checking out Thrush Performance Center in Sumner one of these days for some coaching but it is difficult to get info online about the place.


Joel Jamieson's place is over in Kirkland.

http://www.endzoneathletics.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,48/

Dave Van Skike
12-13-2009, 04:13 PM
Thanks Jay and Craig for the additional feedback and suggestions. I took my L1 at Rainier but would prefer a different gym for reasons I'd rather not go into. I did my barbell cert at Eastside and wouldn't mind going there, but they are a bit far from me. Not married to the idea of a CrossFit gym. I'm thinking of checking out Thrush Performance Center in Sumner one of these days for some coaching but it is difficult to get info online about the place.



Tell me about it. I am considering letting my pit bull and blue heeler chase the squirrels they have been so desperate to go after. I assume squirrel is paleo. Any good squirrel recipes? I've also got 3 cats, so I figure I'm sitting on a lot of hunting power I might have to start putting to good use.


what's your focus? i know there are still people doing oly lifting at sandpoint. if you are interested in PL i can send you some other names.

Brian DeGennaro
12-13-2009, 07:27 PM
Ganine, there is also the Sandpoint Gym, run by Sam Maxwell, he is another good coach as well.

Ganine Vanalst
12-13-2009, 08:38 PM
Wow, thanks Greg, Donald, Dave, and Brian for all the recommendations and suggestions.

Dave, as much as I want to be as strong as possible I don't think PL will be my focus, I'm thinking olympic lifting. I'm in my early forties but I gotta stay fast as I begin to age. My daughter who is almost 19 keeps threatening to put me into a nursing home when I'm older. 99% of the time I think she is kidding, but every once in a while she looks at me with a psycho deranged glint in her eye and then I'm not so sure she is kidding. Either way I'm not taking any chances.

I'm going to see if I can get more info on the Thrush Performance Center and will look into the Sandpoint Gym as well.

Thanks again!

Scott Kustes
12-14-2009, 06:56 AM
Brian, can you help me out with a good source for that, please? I want to do that, save some money and eat healthier. It would be appreciated.
http://eatwild.com/
http://www.localharvest.org/

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 06:58 AM
thanks, Scott... appreciated

Brian DeGennaro
12-14-2009, 07:09 AM
Yeah,Jay, I'll talk to my cousin, he usually buys it with one of his coworkers, it's a great deal though.

Craig Brown
12-14-2009, 07:59 AM
Tell me about it. I am considering letting my pit bull and blue heeler chase the squirrels they have been so desperate to go after. I assume squirrel is paleo. Any good squirrel recipes? I've also got 3 cats, so I figure I'm sitting on a lot of hunting power I might have to start putting to good use.

Squirrel is great with onions & bacon....

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 08:45 AM
Thanks, Brian. I got one source now for 4 bucks a pound for bulk so if that can be beat I'm all ears.

Jay Cohen
12-14-2009, 09:34 AM
True grass fed beef is not about the lowest price per lb, but rather the quality of life, the no use of chemicals, the local farmer that grows great grass that the animals eat, and nothing else, except water, the local slaughter house that humanely kills the animals and everyone pays a fair price for a great product.

You want cheap meat, go to Wal Mart or if you want to support the local farmers working incredibly hard to bring a superior product to market, then don't worry about the price.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 09:42 AM
Jay, unfortunately for me it is about both. If I can find a good supply of grass-fed meat for a good price I will jump on it.

I am not rich, so I do worry about price. I also worry about health and humane treatment of animals, so I will shop around to find the best deal I can get in NY state and split the cost of a 1/2 or full cow with a friend who will go in with me. As long as the meat is grass-fed and humane conditions are met, I am happy, and if I can get a good deal buying in bulk, that adds to it. I'd be a fool not to shop around.

Dave Van Skike
12-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Wow, thanks Greg, Donald, Dave, and Brian for all the recommendations and suggestions.

Dave, as much as I want to be as strong as possible I don't think PL will be my focus, I'm thinking olympic lifting. I'm in my early forties but I gotta stay fast as I begin to age. My daughter who is almost 19 keeps threatening to put me into a nursing home when I'm older. 99% of the time I think she is kidding, but every once in a while she looks at me with a psycho deranged glint in her eye and then I'm not so sure she is kidding. Either way I'm not taking any chances.

I'm going to see if I can get more info on the Thrush Performance Center and will look into the Sandpoint Gym as well.

Thanks again!

let me know if you change your mind. i won't bag on oly lifting because:
i suck at it and don't have much relevant experience..I do train alongside a number of masters men and women state, national and even a few world record holders. If you can handle a little IGX style humor, in terms of peer group, opportunity to compete and overall physical health PL is really very sustainable.

Gant Grimes
12-14-2009, 11:05 AM
Wow, thanks Greg, Donald, Dave, and Brian for all the recommendations and suggestions.

Dave, as much as I want to be as strong as possible I don't think PL will be my focus, I'm thinking olympic lifting. I'm in my early forties but I gotta stay fast as I begin to age. My daughter who is almost 19 keeps threatening to put me into a nursing home when I'm older. 99% of the time I think she is kidding, but every once in a while she looks at me with a psycho deranged glint in her eye and then I'm not so sure she is kidding. Either way I'm not taking any chances.

I'm going to see if I can get more info on the Thrush Performance Center and will look into the Sandpoint Gym as well.

Thanks again!

As you age, hypertrophy training should take some priority in training. This would be consistent with some PL work. You're not going to be able to sustain the training volume of a 20-year old, so don't commit ONLY to Oly lifting.

As DVS said, PL can be very sustainable. Especially if you get a replacement dose (~75mg) test every couple of weeks.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-14-2009, 11:06 AM
Agreed with Dave on that one. I'm new to OL and I've been told, over and over, that OL is a "young person's game." But I see several masters level competitors doing very darn well for themselves; we're not going to make the olympics or the American team, but we're going to have fun and enjoy ourselves.

Actually, I see the training for OL as very PL centric, minus the bench pressing. Throw in some benching three or four times a month and you're game for both. As i see it, training for OL involves pulling, squatting, and going overhead 3 times a week - us old folks normally can't do it everyday like the younglings. Turn one of those pull days into some deadlifts after your dynamic movements; do some form of squatting in each workout (OHS on snatch days; front squats on clean and jerk days; and back squats on the third day); and throw in a bench workout once a week - there you have it, well rounded.

It's sorta what I'm currently doing. I'm doing my lumberjack training/metabolic conditioning on my off days. No different that doing traditional met con via active recovery.

all the best,
Arden

let me know if you change your mind. i won't bag on oly lifting because:
i suck at it and don't have much relevant experience..I do train alongside a number of masters men and women state, national and even a few world record holders. If you can handle a little IGX style humor, in terms of peer group, opportunity to compete and overall physical health PL is really very sustainable.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-14-2009, 11:12 AM
As DVS said, PL can be very sustainable. Especially if you get a replacement dose (~75mg) test every couple of weeks.

HMMMM.....normal protocol is 200mg once every two weeks until a "above normal" is found. Good endos will have you at 75 to 100mg every 7 days. Keeps most in the "normal limits."

My current training - I'll be 40 very soon - is not OL or PL centric, but I do some form of all the above each workout.

Day 1 - power snatch, Overhead Squat, back squat, snatch pulls, 4 board press
Day 2 - power clean, push press, front squat, clean pulls, 2 board press
Day 3 - snatch, clean and jerk, back squat, deadlift (my favorites), and ring push ups.

Volume, %'s moved is waved each week. I'm loving this. Thank god I have a great coach or couch as I've learned it's called.

All the best,
Arden

Ganine Vanalst
12-14-2009, 01:38 PM
Squirrel is great with onions & bacon....

That sounds like it would be good. I got to wondering if I could kill a squirrel for food if I had to (I'm sure I could if need be). But then I started wondering about what happens to all the dead squirrels (yes, I have way too much time on my hands at the moment). I grew up in New York City and even in the city you'd see a dead pigeon or rat on the street once in a while. But I've been living in the PNW for over a year and haven't seen one dead squirrel while hiking with my dogs. You'd think every once in a while one would have a stroke or a seizure or something while sitting on a branch and just fall to the ground.

let me know if you change your mind. i won't bag on oly lifting because:
i suck at it and don't have much relevant experience..I do train alongside a number of masters men and women state, national and even a few world record holders. If you can handle a little IGX style humor, in terms of peer group, opportunity to compete and overall physical health PL is really very sustainable.

Ok, I've changed my mind LOL. Actually, I wouldn't mind doing some PL also, but in the future I do want to focus on some oly lifting. And I can handle the humor, it's lack of humor that drives makes me crazy (well, crazier).

As you age, hypertrophy training should take some priority in training...

Agreed with Dave on that one. I'm new to OL and I've been told, over and over, that OL is a "young person's game."...

Gant & Arden - Thanks for the additional input. Gant, I won't commit to oly only. Arden, I am in a bit of denial about my age. The mind is very willing, but then the body tells me to go f**k myself.

Dave Van Skike
12-14-2009, 02:15 PM
pm me your email address and i'll talk to my guy. we train out of basement at 3rd and Pike DT seattle. he's pretty stacked up right now but genuinely likes working with new people..fair warning, you will be squatting wider, you will be eating more carbs, you will do zerchers and eventually he will rope you into competing. but if you want to put 100 pounds on your squat, and like to rest about 5 minutes minimum between sets of three...he's your guy.

Gant Grimes
12-14-2009, 02:40 PM
Agreed with Dave on that one. I'm new to OL and I've been told, over and over, that OL is a "young person's game." But I see several masters level competitors doing very darn well for themselves; we're not going to make the olympics or the American team, but we're going to have fun and enjoy ourselves.

This is what it's all about as you get on.

I train partly for judo but mostly because I like training the way I do. I currently do:

Mon: Snatch, Squat, Press, curlzzz
Fri: C&J, Bench, DL, chins

The other days I'll do judo, do SM type stuff, or ride the mountain bike. I'm not very strong, but that training schedule allows me to do an OLY or PL comp without embarrassing myself. Sprinkle in a Highland Games and a mountain bike racce, and it's all good.

At this point, I like being half ass to competent to good in several sports. I might even do a master's track meet if the scheduling works out. The more comps you do, the more cool people you'll meet (except point sparring tourneys--wasn't that friendly).

Mike ODonnell
12-14-2009, 02:53 PM
So when the winner of the 2010 CF Games stands up and announces on live cable television that his training was based on P90X and eating Paleo.....the last seal of the fitness apocalypse will be broken....

Garrett Smith
12-14-2009, 02:58 PM
I'm not very strong, but that training schedule allows me to do an OLY or PL comp without embarrassing myself. Sprinkle in a Highland Games and a mountain bike racce, and it's all good.

At this point, I like being half ass to competent to good in several sports. I might even do a master's track meet if the scheduling works out. The more comps you do, the more cool people you'll meet (except point sparring tourneys--wasn't that friendly).
95% of the above holds true for me as well (I don't mountain bike).

Track meets are in the near future.

Ganine Vanalst
12-14-2009, 03:12 PM
pm me your email address and i'll talk to my guy. we train out of basement at 3rd and Pike DT seattle. he's pretty stacked up right now but genuinely likes working with new people..fair warning, you will be squatting wider, you will be eating more carbs, you will do zerchers and eventually he will rope you into competing. but if you want to put 100 pounds on your squat, and like to rest about 5 minutes minimum between sets of three...he's your guy.

Dave, you're scaring me. It's not the zerchers or the wider squats, it's the carbs! That's ok, really don't need too much of an excuse to eat pizza and competing would be fun. I should have mentioned in case it's not obvious:

A. I'm a bit of a pussy
B. I have one

I can work around A, shit I can do about B. Only mention it in case your gym is all male. My name is spelled a bit strange - it is usually spelled Janine or Jeanine and sometimes people mistake me for a guy, although not often in person (I don't think anyway). I'll pm you. Thanks again.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 03:18 PM
you're a girl!!!??? :O *tucks in shirt, cleans up crumbs* ha

Ganine Vanalst
12-14-2009, 03:59 PM
you're a girl!!!??? :O *tucks in shirt, cleans up crumbs* ha

Last time I checked. No need to straighten up on my account, though I appreciate the sentiment :) .

Ganine Vanalst
12-14-2009, 05:45 PM
Too funny. My access to the Affiliate board was removed today (even though my affiliation hasn't expired and I haven't officially deaffiliated yet and was just gonna let it expire). Also, my account was restricted and my posts are being moderated most likely for comments I've made here and on Robb's blog.

Can't say I'm surprised. Not like anything I would have contributed would have made a difference anyway and I was alienated long ago over the tactics used to raise money for the RRG (that told me all I needed to know). Did want to see the reply (or rather the deflection) to Everett's post on the Affiliate board though. And gotta give Barry Cooper credit, agree or not with him he earnestly tried to make a difference over the last few days and I think his heart was in the right place. I've asked my account be deleted but my post is being held for moderation LOL.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-14-2009, 06:04 PM
Dave, you're scaring me. It's not the zerchers or the wider squats, it's the carbs! That's ok, really don't need too much of an excuse to eat pizza and competing would be fun. I should have mentioned in case it's not obvious:

A. I'm a bit of a pussy
B. I have one

I can work around A, shit I can do about B. Only mention it in case your gym is all male. My name is spelled a bit strange - it is usually spelled Janine or Jeanine and sometimes people mistake me for a guy, although not often in person (I don't think anyway). I'll pm you. Thanks again.

Well now, I'm floored. :D

Given the above, my thoughts and recommendations don't change. Seriously. It's all about what you want to put into it.

My wife is very serious in my silly hobby - Lumberjack sports. She strength trains twice a week (even though I want her to up it to every other day during our off season). She's not keen on the dynamic (olympic) lifts. But truly enjoys the power lifts.

Good luck and have fun. If you do decide to go train at the PL gym, the testosterone over flows and you will be treated like a queen. Seriously. Most Pl'ers are big cuddly softys despite the increased androgens. And you don't have to worry about the "douchebag"-chain-wearing-meth-calf-faux-hawk types. PL'ers sport real mowawks. But that's because they can.

All the best,
Arden

Allen Yeh
12-14-2009, 06:15 PM
It is pretty ridiculous for you to have been removed for things you do on another board.

Ganine Vanalst
12-14-2009, 07:10 PM
Well now, I'm floored. :D

Given the above, my thoughts and recommendations don't change. Seriously. It's all about what you want to put into it.

My wife is very serious in my silly hobby - Lumberjack sports. She strength trains twice a week (even though I want her to up it to every other day during our off season). She's not keen on the dynamic (olympic) lifts. But truly enjoys the power lifts.

Good luck and have fun. If you do decide to go train at the PL gym, the testosterone over flows and you will be treated like a queen. Seriously. Most Pl'ers are big cuddly softys despite the increased androgens. And you don't have to worry about the "douchebag"-chain-wearing-meth-calf-faux-hawk types. PL'ers sport real mowawks. But that's because they can.

All the best,
Arden

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I had to look up "lumberjack sports." That's great your wife is into it with you!

I grew up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan and mohawks were all over the place (pregentrification and days of CBGBs). I also lived next to the Hell's Angels as a kid and when I was older bartended at this place called Alcatraz which was a big biker & punk rocker bar, so I'm used to testosterone laden venues. It's been my experience that often the big mean old looking fucks are some of the nicest people you can meet. I've got friends in NYC who are bouncers and relatively big guys and that's the case with them. That's something I love about my pit bull...he is 75 pounds of muscle and could kick ass if he wanted but is the sweetest dog and is great with kids, cats, and other dogs.

It is pretty ridiculous for you to have been removed for things you do on another board.

I agree. But then again this thread exists for a reason. It's ok though. I was interested in the exchanges on the Affiliate board, mostly out of perverse curiosity; however, I was also watching for evidence of a major (albeit highly unlikely) epiphany on the part of the powers that be before my affiliation expired, but everything I was reading just put another nail in the coffin so no loss.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 07:23 PM
LES? Damn, I'm from Philly and I used to travel to CBGB in the early 90's a lot to watch shows.... now I live on Long Island and the LES is a shell of what it used to be...

George Mounce
12-14-2009, 07:26 PM
It is pretty ridiculous for you to have been removed for things you do on another board.

What about posts you make on a blog? Oh wait...darn it. :D

Ganine Vanalst
12-14-2009, 07:46 PM
LES is a shell of what it used to be...

Yep, it sucks...part of why I eventually left after living my whole life there. Was a great neighborhood even when considered dangerous back in the day. I love that neighborhood (or what it used to be) and I've got some really good memories. It will always be my home. Luckily still got a lot of friends there so I can go back and visit whenever I want :D.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 07:50 PM
yes I miss old NYC... it was a different and fun place

Butch White
12-14-2009, 08:15 PM
Did want to see the reply (or rather the deflection) to Everett's post on the Affiliate board though.

Please, will one of you wayward affiliates post G. Everett's comments from the Affiliate board for the rest of us non-affiliates to enjoy. That is guaranteed to be some quality stuff.

Dave Van Skike
12-14-2009, 08:31 PM
actually Ganine, it's more women than men probably in terms of total numbers...and total championships. lots of older guys and medium older like me. several strongman guys and an increasing number of disaffected and slim crossfit type guys.... will hit you up with a PM when I have some more time.

Ganine Vanalst
12-14-2009, 08:49 PM
actually Ganine, it's more women than men probably in terms of total numbers...and total championships. lots of older guys and medium older like me. several strongman guys and an increasing number of disaffected and slim crossfit type guys.... will hit you up with a PM when I have some more time.

Sounds good. Thanks again.

Patrick Donnelly
12-15-2009, 06:37 AM
It is pretty ridiculous for you to have been removed for things you do on another board.
When will you people catch on? For the love of...

James Evans
12-15-2009, 07:22 AM
Googling for something else I came across this (guess the CrossFit philosopher):

You know, Donald Trump's talent was never real estate development. It was self promotion. The latter led to increased (but very mixed) success in the latter.

For anyone who's interested, my understanding is Twight posts his workouts daily. So do his acolytes, from what I understand. I haven't been to his site in 4 years or so, but I talk to people who have.

When they show up at the next CrossFit Games, boy, I think we better all look out, from the sound of things.

Or not.

I should end there, but I won't. People respond to packaging. Reporters want people who are selling something to be buoyant, enthusiastic, to tell a great story, something that makes them special, unique, and interesting. Interesting sells.

Coach is all those things, but he's not trying to coerce or manipulate anyone into anything. My take is he basically says "look, here's the program. We think it's great, but if you have better ideas, we're all ears. Join us if you want. We'll keep going with no hurt feelings if you don't."

He doesn't need Outside, and it would appear Outside doesn't need him. Should we care? Not so much, in my view.

Positive publicity helps, no doubt, but the sort of core that sustains gyms is built on word of mouth, a person at a time. People that are infatuated with "the latest" will come and go in the space of two issues of their favorite magazine.

People that can tell the difference between spin and content will stay. That's how you make a living, and how you make a difference.

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38165

He really is a prick isn't he?

Allen Yeh
12-15-2009, 07:53 AM
He as long as I've seen him on this interweb loves to watch his words fill up a screen....he writes a lot but there isn't much said in those essays.

Brian Stone
12-15-2009, 08:09 AM
He's got an interesting avatar choice for someone that fills the role he does over there. All I'll say on that matter.

James Evans
12-15-2009, 08:18 AM
Mouthpiece aside, consider the following:

For anyone who's interested, my understanding is Twight posts his workouts daily. So do his acolytes, from what I understand. I haven't been to his site in 4 years or so, but I talk to people who have.

Cheers Barry, I was struggling to figure that, thank god you 'talk to people' who have visited the site.

Coach is all those things, but he's not trying to coerce or manipulate anyone into anything. My take is he basically says "look, here's the program. We think it's great, but if you have better ideas, we're all ears. Join us if you want. We'll keep going with no hurt feelings if you don't."

Really?

People that can tell the difference between spin and content will stay. That's how you make a living, and how you make a difference.

James Evans
12-15-2009, 08:25 AM
Glassman could rape kittens live on Oprah and someone like that would still defend him over the interwebz....

....assuming he had spoken to enough people who had actually seen the show and was content that he was suitably abreast of the facts at hand.

Garrett Smith
12-15-2009, 08:25 AM
I should end there, but I won't.
This is the theme to his internet life, I would guess.

Ganine Vanalst
12-15-2009, 12:15 PM
So I check my email today and find this:

http://www.ganine.me/affiliaterenewalemail.jpg

They remove my access to the Affiliate section of the board, restrict my account and moderate my comments even though I've always played by their rules in their house and never violated the AUP and then they've the gall to send me a Renewal Email. ROTFLMFAO.

Here's my reply

http://www.ganine.me/fux2.jpg

I've never had to pay to be fucked before and I sure as hell ain't starting now. (Maybe a few decades from now.)

Garrett Smith
12-15-2009, 12:18 PM
That's funny.

I thought affiliate fees were $2k/year?

Donald Lee
12-15-2009, 12:21 PM
Did anybody else notice that Greg Everett's affiliate tag was removed from the CrossFit boards?

Brian DeGennaro
12-15-2009, 12:28 PM
I just did now... I have a feeling Catalyst members on the CF boards are going to slowly disappear...

Gant Grimes
12-15-2009, 12:37 PM
Here's my reply

http://www.ganine.me/fux2.jpg

I've never had to pay to be fucked before and I sure as hell ain't starting now. (Maybe a few decades from now.)

:D :D :D

Ganine Vanalst
12-15-2009, 12:47 PM
That's funny.

I thought affiliate fees were $2k/year?

I affiliated before the fees were raised. There was some question as to whether renewals were $500 a year if you originally affiliated at $1,000.00. I know that it was stated somewhere for a time that renewals were $500.00 if you affiliated at $1000. Some other affiliates thought this as well. But they were told they were mistaken and the renewal was always at the rate they originally affiliated. Mistaken my ass. They weren't mistaken and neither them nor I imagined that that was the case. And it would have been fine if they just said that the were raising renewals to be the same as your original affiliation fee, but what irked me was to try and pretend like it was always the case renewals were at your original affiliation fee and then to persuade some affiliates who had remembered correctly that they in fact were mistaken.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-15-2009, 12:52 PM
:D :D :D


Oh, that's priceless.

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-15-2009, 01:01 PM
I just did now... I have a feeling Catalyst members on the CF boards are going to slowly disappear...

That would be an absolute travesty. For freedom of thought? More of a bad move than the whole BBS fiasco.

All the best,
Arden

Mike ODonnell
12-15-2009, 01:27 PM
http://www.ganine.me/fux2.jpg

I've never had to pay to be fucked before and I sure as hell ain't starting now. (Maybe a few decades from now.)

:eek: .....and this place just got a whole hell of alot more fun......

Dave Van Skike
12-15-2009, 01:54 PM
:D :D :D

Ganine, I like your style.

Craig Brown
12-15-2009, 02:34 PM
This just in on Robb's site:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=1053

Done & done...

Mike ODonnell
12-15-2009, 02:49 PM
This just in on Robb's site:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=1053

Done & done...

What's next? People's IPs banned from the WOD unless they are autoshipped monthly supply of Zone bars?

All this fuss over working out.....who knew?

Steven Low
12-15-2009, 03:24 PM
What's next? People's IPs banned from the WOD unless they are autoshipped monthly supply of Zone bars?

All this fuss over working out.....who knew?
Given how they're kind of banning/modding people from these PMenu threads I'm surprised that you and I haven't gotten the boot yet. :o

Wayne Riddle
12-15-2009, 05:46 PM
This just in on Robb's site:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=1053

Done & done...

Wow....

I wonder what CFHQ will do to OPT (http://www.optimumtraining.ca/opt_ccp.htm)(WFS)?

sarena kopciel
12-15-2009, 06:58 PM
So I check my email today and find this:

http://www.ganine.me/affiliaterenewalemail.jpg

They remove my access to the Affiliate section of the board, restrict my account and moderate my comments even though I've always played by their rules in their house and never violated the AUP and then they've the gall to send me a Renewal Email. ROTFLMFAO.

Here's my reply

http://www.ganine.me/fux2.jpg

I've never had to pay to be fucked before and I sure as hell ain't starting now. (Maybe a few decades from now.)
CF crazies at it again!! Oh and great shot and great answer!

George Mounce
12-15-2009, 07:10 PM
Given how they're kind of banning/modding people from these PMenu threads I'm surprised that you and I haven't gotten the boot yet. :o

Its only a matter of time, and probably now that I've quoted you and I was one of the OBs (originally banned), you are due.

And for all the IGX lurkers here, I posted the screenshots I took of the CF mod forums almost a year ago and you didn't have the balls to see I was starting a trend...so I left your sorry asses.

Don't lurk here ya losers. =) Introduce yourselves.

Patrick Donnelly
12-15-2009, 07:50 PM
George, there were plenty of people banned from the CrossFit message boards prior to us, including a good number of guys on IGx. We're hardly original - just the first of the more recent ethnic cleansing.



Also, it was brought to my attention lately that not everyone knows that I post as POD over there. So, now you know. I thought it was obvious. I don't intend to be anonymous, and I in fact posted there under my real name for several months, but once Andro Friday became a weekly thing, it was recommended to me that I change my username, so that a Google search for my name wouldn't associate me with that. There's grad school, employers, and clients to consider. I thought that was good advice. (For the record, I've never contributed to an Andro Friday.)

Jim Glover
12-15-2009, 08:39 PM
I forgot I even had an account here.

I need to start coming over here again.

POD you don't listen to these folks.

You know we love you.

And remember Cat-At members you to can register for an account at IGX and even donate a little $$$ like the rest of us low life's to keep the site you love to hate up and running.

Greg, I gotta say I've been stealing from your workouts off and on for some time and I'm going to increase my level of theft very soon.

Keep up the good work.

Greg Everett
12-15-2009, 08:55 PM
I forgot I even had an account here.

I need to start coming over here again.

POD you don't listen to these folks.

You know we love you.

And remember Cat-At members you to can register for an account at IGX and even donate a little $$$ like the rest of us low life's to keep the site you love to hate up and running.

Greg, I gotta say I've been stealing from your workouts off and on for some time and I'm going to increase my level of theft very soon.

Keep up the good work.

We don't punish for things that happen elsewhere, Ed.

And you can't steal free shit.

Patrick Donnelly
12-15-2009, 08:57 PM
And you can't steal free shit.
Yet, Glassman seems to be a master at doing it.

Jim Glover
12-15-2009, 09:17 PM
We don't punish for things that happen elsewhere, Ed.

And you can't steal free shit.

LOL

It's good to be recognized.

Good luck with your future endeavors. You were entirely too good of a trainer to be under the thumb of HQ.

And I'd like to compliment you on your level of restraint in dealing with Castro. I don't know I could have been as adult as you.

travis earp
12-15-2009, 09:31 PM
And remember Cat-At members you to can register for an account at IGX and even donate a little $$$ like the rest of us low life's to keep the site you love to hate up and running.

Except it takes forever to get an account activated.

Jim Glover
12-15-2009, 09:36 PM
Except it takes forever to get an account activated.

Yeah it can be a pain. We gotta talk to Mary O about that.

Darryl Shaw
12-16-2009, 05:15 AM
Given how they're kind of banning/modding people from these PMenu threads I'm surprised that you and I haven't gotten the boot yet. :o

I had a PM from Lynne Pitts yesterday regarding this post (http://www.board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=710099&postcount=14) so I have a feeling that my days on the CF boards are numbered too.

George Noble
12-16-2009, 07:13 AM
Yeah it can be a pain. We gotta talk to Mary O about that.
I signed up at IGx months ago. It's good to see a Couch thread on a forum that actually works :)

Scott Dyck
12-16-2009, 07:24 AM
I signed up at IGx months ago. It's good to see a Couch thread on a forum that actually works :)

Same here.

George Noble
12-16-2009, 07:40 AM
Same here.
It's kind of weird that an unmoderated hate forum with a few threads about lifting would bother to moderate its members at all.

Back on topic - CrossFit sucks, Glassman sucks, Zone sucks.

Dave Van Skike
12-16-2009, 08:42 AM
It's kind of weird that an unmoderated hate forum with a few threads about lifting would bother to moderate its members at all.

Back on topic - CrossFit sucks, Glassman sucks, Zone sucks.

everyone needs some boundaries. do a search over there for jeek. you'll see why.

George Noble
12-16-2009, 12:14 PM
everyone needs some boundaries. do a search over there for jeek. you'll see why.
This guy died? That's not cool.

Robb Wolf
12-16-2009, 08:14 PM
So I check my email today and find this:

http://www.ganine.me/affiliaterenewalemail.jpg

They remove my access to the Affiliate section of the board, restrict my account and moderate my comments even though I've always played by their rules in their house and never violated the AUP and then they've the gall to send me a Renewal Email. ROTFLMFAO.

Here's my reply

http://www.ganine.me/fux2.jpg

I've never had to pay to be fucked before and I sure as hell ain't starting now. (Maybe a few decades from now.)

I MIGHT be in love. Don't tell Nicki.

Ganine Vanalst
12-17-2009, 09:19 AM
I MIGHT be in love. Don't tell Nicki.

LOL...it will be our little secret.

I hope you two have a great holiday. I'm looking forward to buying that book of yours as Christmas presents next year.