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View Full Version : Progenex and unintended consequences


Gant Grimes
12-14-2009, 07:51 AM
So CF, Inc. is getting into the supplement business. We already knew that 2010 would be a year of 40/30/30 Funions and Ho Hos (backed by scientific rigor, of course), but now HQ will be peddling supplements. Not officially, of course. But when you invest $50,000 for prize money, you plan to get your money back.

http://games2010.crossfit.com/sponsors/progenex-to-sponsor-2010-champions.html

This will get exposure for the CF Games as an event, but it's going to screw affiliates in the long run. Why? Because a $25K grand prize is going to get some real people involved. Take an undrafted D1 strong safety that's coaching high school ball and dangle that carrot in front of him. Give the guy a jump rope and let him flop around on a pullup bar for a couple weekends, and he'll take everyone's lunch money. Hell, DeFranco might even send a couple guys down to mug the kool-aid drinkers. Whatever the case, you won't see a guy on the podium with more than four months of CF under his belt.

Garrett Smith
12-14-2009, 08:17 AM
This will be fun to watch. I bet the major networks won't be interested until the Games are completely plucked from the cronyism that is CFHQ. That's probably why they haven't been more covered to this point.

They might actually have to pay attention to the drug tests a bit more in the future.

Patrick Donnelly
12-14-2009, 08:38 AM
They had an official supplement last year too, but it didn't get much publicity. (Probably didn't give $50k!) I'm thinking it was named X-Blade, but I could be wrong. That sounds too lame to be correct.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 08:51 AM
Gant, it is a good and bad scenario. With Progenix coming on board you will see the further exposure of CF and more and more people getting involved and that is a good thing.

But what this MAY do is make the Games itself such that people are entering and winner as to the manner you describe. One way HQ can combat this is to only allow members of CF gyms in the regionals and finals, but that rule can be twisted and abused so easily as well, not to mention the bad PR from that when people say "see CF thinks its so elite that it won't let anyone enter".

Even still, the Games itself are so varied in their events that there is no guarantee that undrafted SS could run 4 miles over hilly terrain or do a muscle-up.

Its one of those wait and see deals.

With growth will come "selling out", and I know CF has before looked down on protein supplements so this partnership comes as a surprise to many, but I'm willing to see how it plays out before passing judgement as to its result.

Plus, Gant, the best ATHLETES win all the time, regardless of past CF experience. Khalipa is an athlete, Salo is a freak of nature, Tonya Wagner was an excellent athlete from my home area, and that Icelandic chick (the 19 year old) is another one who is a studette. They can train for general GPP and strength and still do well. I know there are more out there, the average CF man and woman can't compete with that, and they won't. Genetics plays a massive role in that kind of success and with the further exposure of this, it will play an even larger role I think.

Garrett, I disagree with the cronyism part. I don't think networks care about that, I think they care about ratings and ad dollars and right now CF won't produce that, hell the WSM doesn't produce that in America so I don't expect to see CF with a prime-time ESPN slot anytime soon.

And I agree with the drug tests, they need to be done with more scrutiny and more carefully.

Mike ODonnell
12-14-2009, 08:59 AM
Will this be broadcast on the "ocho"?

Personally I'd rather watch Ninja Warrior....or Wipeout....both highly entertaining in their own way.

Garrett Smith
12-14-2009, 08:59 AM
Jay,
Two things. WSM actually brings people to watch it because the events are short-duration and entail huge, strong men doing things that most of us could never even entertain doing.

Watching CF as an event is about as entertaining as watching triathlon or marathon running. For those who are into it, they love it. For those who don't understand it, it's like pulling teeth.

There are rumors that the drug tests never even happened, even that they were botched and bungled. There has been no mention of them since the Games.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 09:02 AM
Jay,
Two things. WSM actually brings people to watch it because the events are short-duration and entail huge, strong men doing things that most of us could never even entertain doing.

Watching CF as an event is about as entertaining as watching triathlon or marathon running. For those who are into it, they love it. For those who don't understand it, it's like pulling teeth.

There are rumors that the drug tests never even happened, even that they were botched and bungled. There has been no mention of them since the Games.

You are right about the WSM, but CF has a big following as well, even if the following is all CrossFitters. That's the problem with a TV deal, its a very niche market and WSM appeals to the average man who goes "holy shit, did you see him flip a mack truck!!!"

I like watching the short events, I can't get into long runs or chippers, but I'll watch the hell out of a 10 minute workout involving heavy weights, that's just me.

and I hear you on the rumours, nothing was ever mentioned about it afterwards so who the hell knows what happened.

Justin Arnold
12-14-2009, 09:12 AM
Glassman had a CFJ video in which he was bloviating about the games attracting a bunch of attention from media companies wanting to televise it.. he asserts that every one of the "deals" would have led to him having to give up control of some aspects of the games, plus eventual profit sharing for all of CF. Presumably the media companies wanted this saying that they helped CF get popular (and therefore increased profits).

Total bullshit or not, it was a logical argument.


Jay, the protein thing may have surprised many, but probably not quite as many as you think.

I like Gant's idea.. in fact I'd pay to see that.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 09:15 AM
I wouldn't doubt that it attracted some media attention at all, but what kind I don't know. I can't see it being televised live at this stage of the game, but who knows...

It is a very logical argument, I agree that CF shouldn't have to share profits with a media company for their "help" with popularity, CF does fine on its own with that.

Garrett Smith
12-14-2009, 09:41 AM
Glassman only likes home field advantage, plain and simple.

For example, if Robb Wolff puts an affiliate team in the Games next year, expect them to get royally screwed, no doubt.

Ryan Secor
12-14-2009, 10:03 AM
Whatever the case, you won't see a guy on the podium with more than four months of CF under his belt.

Wouldn't be shocked to see this. In fact of the top 5 males and top 5 females in the 2009 Games, only 1 or 2 had been doing CF longer than a year or two.

Gant Grimes
12-14-2009, 11:20 AM
But what this MAY do is make the Games itself such that people are entering and winner as to the manner you describe. One way HQ can combat this is to only allow members of CF gyms in the regionals and finals, but that rule can be twisted and abused so easily as well, not to mention the bad PR from that when people say "see CF thinks its so elite that it won't let anyone enter".

Even still, the Games itself are so varied in their events that there is no guarantee that undrafted SS could run 4 miles over hilly terrain or do a muscle-up.

...

Plus, Gant, the best ATHLETES win all the time, regardless of past CF experience. Khalipa is an athlete, Salo is a freak of nature, Tonya Wagner was an excellent athlete from my home area, and that Icelandic chick (the 19 year old) is another one who is a studette. They can train for general GPP and strength and still do well. I know there are more out there, the average CF man and woman can't compete with that, and they won't. Genetics plays a massive role in that kind of success and with the further exposure of this, it will play an even larger role I think.

This is already happening. I've already heard a couple interesting names. There might also be different groups of gyms doing their own incentive-based sponsoring, thus sweetening the pot.

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the D1 defensive backs could podium at the games with a couple months of metcon type workouts.

The best athletes do win, which should present a problem to Couch. If CF produces elite fitness and the games test for elite fitness, what does it say when somebody that hasn't done CF wipes everyone out?

Naturally, Bony Goebbels will spin it and try to claim these people as CF's own.

Garrett Smith
12-14-2009, 12:37 PM
Yeah, I don't think CF has even begun to see the real genetic freaks come out to play yet.

This will likely conclusively demonstrate that year-round metcon as a means to get better at metcon is completely unnecessary beyond an absolute minimum (if at all beyond a couple months of prep).

Although, in an effort to keep out the non-CFers, HQ could simply just keep lengthening out the games--as they have done every year to this point--to make it so that training would need to be more "specific"...which would be funny, and yet again, completely antithetical to everything that people thought the supposed "philosophy" of CF stood for.

Then it will be just another endurance sport, whose main contests will ruin people even worse than before.

Steven Low
12-14-2009, 12:44 PM
The very fact that there's sectionals now mean that you have to gear up for "3" major competitions in a year. People in other sports probably won't have enough time to train and recover for their sports as well as CF. Which is good for HQ in that sense.

I mean 8 events the last games was just poor programming. That roasted every competitor for at least a month afterwards... not exactly conducive to good health.

Kevin Perry
12-14-2009, 12:58 PM
pfft I bet a prize money would attract big game to the field. I still can't believe last years game and how many CF'ers qualified with such low numbers and little experience compared to the first years games. I mean hell, a girl..or man still can't figure that one out yet that I went to a cert with got into the qualifiers with only 2 months experience of CF and I vividly remember her not being able to OHS worth a shit with pvc or accomplish much period with that pipe, compare that with all the people who also qualified and could not pull a 2xbw DL or press their own bodyweight, so what the fuck is up with that?

Couple that with what Steven said about the piss poor programming. Some of them should have had the common sense to just say "fuck that" and stop.

We know a D1 type athlete would likely come in with double or triple the strength of your average CF'er and would likely dominate the challenges but whose to say the various regionals won't "bias" or rig their programming to favor their affiliate trainees.

Justin Herring
12-14-2009, 01:39 PM
The other problem with introducing real money is that it drives up expectations for the professionalism and fairness of the operation.

When it's just bragging rights and a few bucks, you can let a lot slide. Who cares if the judging is a little uneven or the qualifying events vary substantially? But once there's real money at play there's going to be a lot more scrutiny. Heck, last year HQ thought it was fine to have the same organizers who programmed the events for a region compete in the events they selected!

The very fact that there's sectionals now mean that you have to gear up for "3" major competitions in a year. People in other sports probably won't have enough time to train and recover for their sports as well as CF. Which is good for HQ in that sense.

Anyone who can't finish in the top 20-30 of a Sectional with a little tune-up is probably not a threat to finish high at the Games. The Regionals, where you need a top 3 finish usually, are a different story--since they are in May, I suppose you have 3/4-month "season" for the Games.

Anyway, the real influx of genetic beasts is probably going to be from the ranks of post-collegiate athletes who no longer have to worry about a "season."

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 01:53 PM
This is already happening. I've already heard a couple interesting names. There might also be different groups of gyms doing their own incentive-based sponsoring, thus sweetening the pot.

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the D1 defensive backs could podium at the games with a couple months of metcon type workouts.

The best athletes do win, which should present a problem to Couch. If CF produces elite fitness and the games test for elite fitness, what does it say when somebody that hasn't done CF wipes everyone out?

Naturally, Bony Goebbels will spin it and try to claim these people as CF's own.

I really hope that isn't the case (the incentive-based sponsoring) but its bound to happen sometime.

I've worked with some great athletes over the years, and have been around a lot as well in my rugby career, who I am sure could do damn well at a Games competition.

As CF gets bigger, you will see the best athlete winning more and not the best CFer.

Elite fitness is relative. For an average joe who does a workout 4 times a week in his local box, his idea of elite fitness, for him, is completely different than a Jason Khalipa who has a different approach to it and a different goal in mind.

It will be harder and harder for the average trainer to do well at the Games. The time, sacrifice and meal planning will take a shitload of time, and a guy with a fulltime job (that doesn't revolve around training) will have a hard time with that.

And you are probably right about that D1 backs and CF. That would be a nice experiment.

Scott Kustes
12-14-2009, 03:54 PM
Elite fitness is relative.
No.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 05:00 PM
No.
yes, think about it. Its relative towards the individual, not everyone can be an 800m sprinter and a weightlifter rolled into one. ;)

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 05:24 PM
but maybe using elite fitness is strong... how about just fitness then

Gavin Harrison
12-14-2009, 05:41 PM
Elite fitness is relative. For an average joe who does a workout 4 times a week in his local box, his idea of elite fitness, for him, is completely different than a Jason Khalipa who has a different approach to it and a different goal in mind.

Kinda, but...

No.
Yes.

yes, think about it. Its relative towards the individual, not everyone can be an 800m sprinter and a weightlifter rolled into one. ;)

But...

I think fitness is relative to the activity the person wants to compete in. You can have elite fitness for throwing, but next to zero fitness for triathlon.

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Gavin, that was my point exactly, you explained it better than I did.

Scott Kustes
12-14-2009, 06:33 PM
Now you got it..."fit for what?"

Jay Ashman
12-14-2009, 06:36 PM
Now you got it..."fit for what?"agree... which is what I meant but I explained it like shit and Gavin did a better job at it...

Gant Grimes
12-15-2009, 07:29 AM
One can be fit to run the 400m dash just as one can be fit to pound Safeway gin and fly a spaceship with Xenu. It's a semantical argument designed to distract people from the fact that competitive exercise isn't a sport.

Mike ODonnell
12-15-2009, 08:53 AM
The word "elite".....rant on

People would be much better off to just drop the "elite" word on all things......and then find fun in whatever exercise they choose to do.

While competing for the sake of challenging oneself is good......ONLY trying to be "better than others" implies an ego driven motivation and lack of actual happiness in who the person is right now (thinking about being something else will make them happy....which it never does....as it is never enough).

If someone needs to ask "What do you bench?".....or "What is your Fran time"....only hoping to be better than the other person.....I feel a bit sorry for that person as they are not happy with themselves right now.

I've seen too many people use OCD fitness lifestyles much like drugs/alcohol to ignore a deeper problem inside.....that should be addressed.

Just my zen rant.......rant done.

Jay Ashman
12-15-2009, 09:10 AM
Gant, exercise isn't a sport, it is a way to get in shape and stronger, and if you play sports or compete, its a means to an end, exactly. The Games are fun, but its a contest of fitness and strength, so that makes it a sport perse, but to the thousands of people who don't compete in the games, CF is just a way to get them fitter and stronger for whatever they need.

Duke McCall
12-15-2009, 10:11 AM
Safeway gin . . . spaceships . . . Xenu . . . ignoring problems . . . sounds good.

Scott Dyck
12-15-2009, 10:21 AM
One can be fit to run the 400m dash just as one can be fit to pound Safeway gin and fly a spaceship with Xenu. It's a semantical argument designed to distract people from the fact that competitive exercise isn't a sport.

I wish this quote were flowers that I could put in a vase.

Derek Weaver
12-15-2009, 09:20 PM
The word "elite".....rant on

People would be much better off to just drop the "elite" word on all things......and then find fun in whatever exercise they choose to do.

While competing for the sake of challenging oneself is good......ONLY trying to be "better than others" implies an ego driven motivation and lack of actual happiness in who the person is right now (thinking about being something else will make them happy....which it never does....as it is never enough).

If someone needs to ask "What do you bench?".....or "What is your Fran time"....only hoping to be better than the other person.....I feel a bit sorry for that person as they are not happy with themselves right now.

I've seen too many people use OCD fitness lifestyles much like drugs/alcohol to ignore a deeper problem inside.....that should be addressed.

Just my zen rant.......rant done.

Well said MOD.

Tom Woodward
12-16-2009, 07:34 AM
The Games are fun, but its a contest of fitness and strength, so that makes it a sport perse, but to the thousands of people who don't compete in the games, CF is just a way to get them fitter and stronger for whatever they need.

Jay, the Games are too random to be a real test. I think a much more exciting comp would be(with an hour or two between each event) :

AM Saturday:
Snatch
C&J
Overhead Press

PM Saturday:
Squat
Deadlift
5K

AM Sunday:
100M Sprint
Max Box Jump
Max Pullups

PM Sunday:
800M Run
Grace


A combination of actual track, weightlifting, and gymnastics would be fun to watch. It would be a platform on which to compete for people that train in the hybrid style. Though of course you could always enter an adult track meet, weightlifting comp, and 5K separately. Just saying it would be cool to have all the people that train that way in one place. Good vibe.

Garrett Smith
12-16-2009, 09:12 AM
Tom,
I'm working on it. Give me some time.

Jay Ashman
12-16-2009, 09:56 AM
Jay, the Games are too random to be a real test. I think a much more exciting comp would be(with an hour or two between each event) :

AM Saturday:
Snatch
C&J
Overhead Press

PM Saturday:
Squat
Deadlift
5K

AM Sunday:
100M Sprint
Max Box Jump
Max Pullups

PM Sunday:
800M Run
Grace


A combination of actual track, weightlifting, and gymnastics would be fun to watch. It would be a platform on which to compete for people that train in the hybrid style. Though of course you could always enter an adult track meet, weightlifting comp, and 5K separately. Just saying it would be cool to have all the people that train that way in one place. Good vibe.

Tom, that is a great contest, but it does go against what CF wants to accomplish at the games. You can take a fit strength athlete (football safety, rugby inside center, strong lacrosse player) and he would do well at those events, as long as he practiced the exercises. Nowhere do you have the pain in the ass chipper events we all hate to do, the muscle-ups, the walking lunges, the weighted runs (and for all intents and purpose, the sandbag run was pretty damn rough for people). While that idea is good for athletes, I don't think it will fit in CrossFit's definition of what they want, make sense?

Its hard to please everyone when it comes to a contest like this, but the 2009 Games did their best at it. I think the amount of events over 2 days was brutal and there could have been some ways to improve it, but it definitely tested the competitors as far as broad strength and fitness.

It was too much at the end, because most of the competitors had to take some time off after the games, and watching the videos on the CFJ, Thiel himself said he needed almost 6 months to recover fully from 2008. Whether that is an exaggeration or not, the point remains that is it the best idea to sacrifice health like that for a title like "Games winner"? That is up to each person to decide for themselves.

If Khalipa hadn't had the issues with the run, he would have repeated, and nobody can say he isn't a good example of an athlete. Strong as hell, in good shape and larger than the average CrossFitter.

It is good that there is prize money which is sizable, because these people sacrifice a lot to compete. And for those that say it isn't a sport to compete in these games, the same applies to strongman, powerlifting, highland games, etc.. its a contest of fitness and strength and the winners should be rewarded for putting their health on the line and doing all the training they need to do to get to that point.

Garrett Smith
12-16-2009, 11:16 AM
CF can have their games. I look at it this way.

If I could find an athlete who could do the following:
Run 100m, 400m, long jump, vertical jump, clean & jerk, snatch, DL, standing press, back squat, and do some basic gymnastics strength moves, etc...

Better than a guy who could do these things:
Pound a stake into the ground, do grueling chippers, basically metcon ad nauseum....

I know which guy I'd rather "pick" for nearly any playground game, as well as which one I'd rather participate in and/or watch.

Glassman's (in-)famous quote about...
"Develop the capacity of a novice 800 meter track athlete, gymnast, and weightlifter and you'll be fitter than any world class runner, gymnast, or weightlifter."
....hit a chord with many people and initially attracted them to CF. However, CF's metcon-based workout programs do not deliver on this note. A different type of competition would encourage this type of "fitness ability". I believe this is what many people are discovering within themselves, that they like OL, PL, sprinting, basic gymnastics...but CF just doesn't help them improve at those things beyond the absolutely most basic level, because the "random" template doesn't allow much for the most basic thing necessary in any physical activity...PRACTICE.

Pat McElhone
12-16-2009, 11:47 AM
Though of course you could always enter an adult track meet, weightlifting comp, and 5K separately.

But, if the "elite" crossfitter did this, they would find they are not elite in the sports of track and field, weightlifting and a 5k. They would be in the middle of the pack on your average contest, I mean none of the top CrossFitter, the fittest people on earth, would have won the local Turkey Trot 5k in my suburb.

Garrett Smith
12-16-2009, 11:55 AM
Pat, I don't think that point is being argued. We all understand what you're saying.

What the organized meets/races do is give a properly judged forum by which to gauge oneself...you know, with real OL judges, for example...so that "anything goes" rules aren't instituted simply because of a lack of qualified people.

A-hem.

Pat McElhone
12-16-2009, 12:09 PM
Pat, I don't think that point is being argued. We all understand what you're saying.

What the organized meets/races do is give a properly judged forum by which to gauge oneself...you know, with real OL judges, for example...so that "anything goes" rules aren't instituted simply because of a lack of qualified people.

A-hem.


Garrett,

I know you know this, I know this, but some people are refusing to recognize that having "elite" fitness does not translate into anything but "having elite fitness". One need look no further then the snatch event to see that being a good CrossFitter makes you nothing more then being a good crossfitter.

Alex Bond
12-16-2009, 12:14 PM
But, if the "elite" crossfitter did this, they would find they are not elite in the sports of track and field, weightlifting and a 5k. They would be in the middle of the pack on your average contest, I mean none of the top CrossFitter, the fittest people on earth, would have won the local Turkey Trot 5k in my suburb.

Bingo, which is why they don't compete against other athletes. The heaviest "snatch" at the games was 240#, then a bunch of 225#s. That 240# would have gotten last place in his class at the last Oly meet I went to. And this is elite?

George Noble
12-16-2009, 12:37 PM
One can be fit to run the 400m dash just as one can be fit to pound Safeway gin and fly a spaceship with Xenu. It's a semantical argument designed to distract people from the fact that competitive exercise isn't a sport.
There are lots of legitimate criticisms of CF, but this isn't really one. Strongman is a sport, powerlifting and weightlifting are sports. Anyone who isn't a moron agrees on that. You say this about the CF Games because you don't like CF. That's fine, I don't either, but that doesn't make it true.

Shane Skowron
12-16-2009, 12:41 PM
But, if the "elite" crossfitter did this, they would find they are not elite in the sports of track and field, weightlifting and a 5k. They would be in the middle of the pack on your average contest, I mean none of the top CrossFitter, the fittest people on earth, would have won the local Turkey Trot 5k in my suburb.

Bingo, which is why they don't compete against other athletes. The heaviest "snatch" at the games was 240#, then a bunch of 225#s. That 240# would have gotten last place in his class at the last Oly meet I went to. And this is elite?

So what?

Bryan Clay's 1500m in 5:06 at Beijing in 2008 wouldn't have even placed in the top 5 at a regular high school track meet. Heck, I probably could have beat him in that event. (Not if he were well-rested, though.) Even his 1500m PR of 4:38 wouldn't win any high school track meets. But the guy is World Champion and Olympic Champion -- elite by my standards.

The whole "elite" aspect of CrossFit is ridiculously overblown. But Mikko Salo is incredibly impressive, and yes, elite.

Garrett Smith
12-16-2009, 12:49 PM
I think we all understand each other.

I am, simply put, way too fitness-ADD to ever want to become a specialist. I'm average-to-good at a bunch of things, and I'm OK with that.

The word "elite" and the elitism that goes with it ruffles a lot of feathers immediately, I totally get that.

If a defined and repeatable sport integrating OL/PL/gymnastics/T&F events were created (as opposed to "unknown and unknowable" and "unrepeatable"), then one could attain top-level performance in that particular combination of events, and be considered "elite" (*cough*) in that "sport", but not in the individual events (think decathletes, not elite in any one event, but elite across the ten events, in fact I looked at the Olympic results and the top decathlete score for each event was almost to the number *~10%* below the individual event winners, whether time/distance/height/etc.).

I'd say the main issue lies in defining the sport or activity, then "fitness" can be built specifically for it, even if it encompasses multiple types of physical adaptations.

Garrett Smith
12-16-2009, 01:02 PM
There are lots of legitimate criticisms of CF, but this isn't really one. Strongman is a sport, powerlifting and weightlifting are sports. Anyone who isn't a moron agrees on that. You say this about the CF Games because you don't like CF. That's fine, I don't either, but that doesn't make it true.
George,
To call CF a "sport", let's try to compare a couple of things I'd say are important to what people notice about typical sports, even "heavy" sports:

Are there any other sports where the events are so relatively unknown to the participants beforehand?
Are there other sports where the entire competition will never be repeated in that particular iteration ever again?
Are there other sports where there will never really be "records" because the events are nearly impossible to repeat, or because the organizers specifically don't ever want to repeat them?

Things to think about. Sports become sports, I would think, because people agree on them. That is another thing about the Games--only a small group of people are deciding upon what happens, without any input from others.

Alex Bond
12-16-2009, 01:06 PM
So what?

Bryan Clay's 1500m in 5:06 at Beijing in 2008 wouldn't have even placed in the top 5 at a regular high school track meet. Heck, I probably could have beat him in that event. (Not if he were well-rested, though.) Even his 1500m PR of 4:38 wouldn't win any high school track meets. But the guy is World Champion and Olympic Champion -- elite by my standards.

The whole "elite" aspect of CrossFit is ridiculously overblown. But Mikko Salo is incredibly impressive, and yes, elite.

You're right, the best Crossfitters are very elite at what they do, and to imply otherwise is wrong. Salo, Khalipa, et al are impressive athletes. I guess my statement is more in reaction to the banner at the last games that was something like "CF dominates other athletes, this is a truth derived through competition", which is a really ridiculous thing to state.

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-16-2009, 01:09 PM
"Are there other sports where there will never really be "records" because the events are nearly impossible to repeat, or because the organizers specifically don't ever want to repeat them?"

Skiing and bobsled. THe track is different every time, so no records. Same with kayak and sailing

"Are there other sports where the entire competition will never be repeated in that particular iteration ever again?"

Strongman events are similar, bbut each contest is different than the last. Part of the strong man appeal is the "new event none of our competitors has seen"

"Are there any other sports where the events are so relatively unknown to the participants beforehand?"

THis one I'm not sure about. Strong man is the only example and I don't know when the competitors find out what the events are.

George Noble
12-16-2009, 01:10 PM
Things to think about. Sports become sports, I would think, because people agree on them. That is another thing about the Games--only a small group of people are deciding upon what happens, without any input from others.

I don't really think the items on that list really preclude it from being a sport. It'll never be a mainstream sport, but what other word would you assign to a competitive event which is decided solely by the physical performance of the competitors?

As for the quoted part of your post, the people who compete are agreeing on it by showing up. That's my opinion.

Shane Skowron
12-16-2009, 01:22 PM
You're right, the best Crossfitters are very elite at what they do, and to imply otherwise is wrong. Salo, Khalipa, et al are impressive athletes. I guess my statement is more in reaction to the banner at the last games that was something like "CF dominates other athletes, this is a truth derived through competition", which is a really ridiculous thing to state.

I agree.

And so do a ton of other people:
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=49103&highlight=banner

Danny John
12-16-2009, 02:04 PM
Be careful about downplaying the decathlete. I'm no fan of them, but don't forget the guy threw three events (well!!!), three jumps, the hurdles, and the 100 and the 400. Few people can realize just how the points in the PV have changed the event, so these guys are also elite PVers.

5:06 is awesome considering what goes on before. You will note that these guys usually are right around their best marks in the explosive events at the big games, but lag in the pure endurance stuff (from their bests) as the endurance work takes away from the other events, while the explosive stuff seems to support the others.

As for D1 football players...if these guys take ANYthing seriously, they are better than you and me. I'm not sure people realize how off the charts these guys are in athletic ability. That guy from the U of U that did well in the xfit games last year was a back up at a fine school and team, but he might have ranked 1000 in the DBs that year in Division One. (That's a bit of hyperbole, but I think most would see my point).

I am as bad an athlete that probably has competed at the D1 level. I was remarkable for my ordinaryness among every body else. I competed against a guy who stood flatfooted on the free throw line and did a standing long jump towards the net, barely touched the ground, jumped straight up and two hand slammed the ball. He was a shot putter. It was simply stunning.

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-16-2009, 02:16 PM
Dan,

I don't think Shane was down playing the decathlete, but saying that in the individual events, decathletes are not all that amazing (as compared to specialists) but are nonetheless crowned "The Greatest Athlete".

THis also plays into the "Fit for what?" question. Who is the fittest depends alot on how you go about defining fitness.

Craig Brown
12-16-2009, 02:19 PM
There are lots of legitimate criticisms of CF, but this isn't really one. Strongman is a sport, powerlifting and weightlifting are sports. Anyone who isn't a moron agrees on that. You say this about the CF Games because you don't like CF. That's fine, I don't either, but that doesn't make it true.

I actually think it is true- Strongman, PL, OL, HG- all are sports. They have rules, judges, judging criteria. CF games are competition, yes, but certainly not sport. You could almost argue the strongman part, but there's a pretty defined set of skills that will be tested in a strongman comp. It's definitely the closest to the CF games of those you mentioned, but I still wouldn't relegate it to the same level.

Craig

Gant Grimes
12-16-2009, 02:21 PM
It'll never be a mainstream sport, but what other word would you assign to a competitive event which is decided solely by the physical performance of the competitors?

Tactical Strength Challenge comes to mind. As does Gloucester Cheese Rolling. As does Bikram's Yoga competition. I think Games is a pretty good description.

Why does everybody get so upset about this? The people who compete in Aromos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOyQBSMeIhM

DJ, that's the point I was trying to make when I started this thread. A lot of CFers--especially the ones that found athletics late in life--do not understand that some people are just born better than the rest of us. That's ok, but damn near ANY D1 defensive back would kill everybody at the Games.

Elite genetics > elite fitness.

By the way, I was in SLC last week and drove up the hill at U of U. Gorgeous. Then I drove down to Chipotle and passed a Scientology place. I thought of Couch.

Danny John
12-16-2009, 02:32 PM
Why didn't you call me or something? I would have liked to meet you. I didn't take the deca point one way or another, I was just reminding people of what is asked.

My suggestion for the xfit games would be to standardize it. Do the fran or whatever, max DL, a 400 meter run, something else.

Shane Skowron
12-16-2009, 02:35 PM
Be careful about downplaying the decathlete. I'm no fan of them, but don't forget the guy threw three events (well!!!), three jumps, the hurdles, and the 100 and the 400. Few people can realize just how the points in the PV have changed the event, so these guys are also elite PVers.

5:06 is awesome considering what goes on before. You will note that these guys usually are right around their best marks in the explosive events at the big games, but lag in the pure endurance stuff (from their bests) as the endurance work takes away from the other events, while the explosive stuff seems to support the others.

Exactly my point. You can't look at one event in decathlon and make a judgment on it without seeing it in the context of the entire sport, because that's a slippery slope.

So to be fair, criticizing the CF Games by taking out of context the 'snatch' event or the running event isn't a valid point either.

Garrett Smith
12-16-2009, 02:36 PM
Why didn't you call me or something? I would have liked to meet you. I didn't take the deca point one way or another, I was just reminding people of what is asked.

My suggestion for the xfit games would be to standardize it. Do the fran or whatever, max DL, a 400 meter run, something else.
"WHAT?!?! That's against all CF philosophy!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:D

EDIT: I didn't mean to downplay decathletes, I hope my post didn't come across that way, heck, within 10% of the world's best specialists is pretty crazy in and of itself...

EDIT2: I agree that the lack of standardization of the Games will be why they won't ever get further than their niche.

Gant Grimes
12-16-2009, 02:56 PM
Why didn't you call me or something? I would have liked to meet you. I didn't take the deca point one way or another, I was just reminding people of what is asked.

My suggestion for the xfit games would be to standardize it. Do the fran or whatever, max DL, a 400 meter run, something else.

I wanted to. It was a quick work trip, and I spent most of my time on the road back and forth to Vernal. I'll have more time next time, and I'll definitely call.

I agree on the standardization. That's what gives me a hard time classifying it as a sport (not that HQ cares about my opinion). Even the Eco-challenge has some organization.

Standardize it, pick out 5 marquee events--hell pick em out of a pool of 10 possibles--and run it over a 2-3 day period.

George Noble
12-16-2009, 02:59 PM
I've a good mind to compete in Gloucestershire Cheese Rolling '10

Tom Woodward
12-16-2009, 03:14 PM
Nowhere do you have the pain in the ass chipper events we all hate to do, the muscle-ups, the walking lunges, the weighted runs (and for all intents and purpose, the sandbag run was pretty damn rough for people).

Why would anyone want to train and compete in something they hate to do??
It's just such a strange concept to train for a competition when that competition could literally be anything. What dictates your training? How do you consistently measure progress? I guess a lot of people like it based on turnout for the Games, but I get a lot more satisfaction out of practicing for tennis and basketball tournaments since I actually know what the comp entails.

Suppose I just need to sack up and enter a weightlifting or PL comp rather than bitching about the games. Garrett, keep me posted if you ever get a real lifting/track/gymnastics comp pulled together.

Jay Ashman
12-16-2009, 03:57 PM
Tom, the Games allure is training for the unknown. To people who compete in CF events, that is the fun of it... and as far as I know the Games are the only CF event that doesn't broadcast the events beforehand, the rest do from what I know.

Tom, if you have to ask that question about progress and training direction, then maybe you don't understand the nature of CF. It is random and geared towards doing well at a lot of different things. Its not geared towards structure in training, its random. Is that good or bad? That depends on your goals. I wouldn't put an athlete on mainsite training, but I would put a guy that says to me "I just want to get in good shape and be stronger". A lot of CrossFitters structure their lifting training (I do) and some don't. It depends on what they want out of it.

My personal workouts are geared for strength, explosiveness, speed and fitness. I will never be a Games winner or even do well at them, I know that. I'm happy with being 245/250, stronger than most guys my size and in better shape than them.

I think a lot of you are just bashing CF for the sake of bashing CF. But think about it, the Games are a good damn test of fitness and strength, regardless of how random it is, and that is exactly what CF wants accomplish.

Patrick Donnelly
12-16-2009, 04:42 PM
Tom, the Games allure is training for the unknown. To people who compete in CF events, that is the fun of it... and as far as I know the Games are the only CF event that doesn't broadcast the events beforehand, the rest do from what I know.
Oh wow! That's a good one! Hahahah! Wow!


So you think none of the athletes knew what was going to be in the Games prior to going? They certainly don't make the events public, but you're delusional if you think no one knows.

Jay Ashman
12-16-2009, 05:04 PM
Oh wow! That's a good one! Hahahah! Wow!


So you think none of the athletes knew what was going to be in the Games prior to going? They certainly don't make the events public, but you're delusional if you think no one knows.

Patrick, if they did, nobody said anything. And to be honest, does it matter? They still have to compete in them.

Save the smartass hahahaha's for somewhere else, if you don't like what I have to say, respond to it properly. Unless you are in front of me, I don't want to hear it behind a computer screen, we are adults here.

Aaron Austin
12-16-2009, 05:22 PM
"Are there other sports where there will never really be "records" because the events are nearly impossible to repeat, or because the organizers specifically don't ever want to repeat them?"

Skiing and bobsled. THe track is different every time, so no records. Same with kayak and sailing

"Are there other sports where the entire competition will never be repeated in that particular iteration ever again?"

Strongman events are similar, bbut each contest is different than the last. Part of the strong man appeal is the "new event none of our competitors has seen"

"Are there any other sports where the events are so relatively unknown to the participants beforehand?"

THis one I'm not sure about. Strong man is the only example and I don't know when the competitors find out what the events are.

Sorry Jamie, I need to be a prick here. As a fan of Bobsleigh I am obligated to let you know the tracks are constructed from reinforced concrete with built in cooling pipes. They aren't changing that shit easy. Here are the mens records for the Calgary track:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=6&ved=0CBoQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bobsleigh.ca%2Fen-ca%2Ffiles%2FCalgary%2520Track%2520Fact%2520Sheet1 .pdf
On a related note - screw decathletes I'd rather be a brakeman - you only have to push a sleigh for about 5 seconds ;) .

http://www.searchviews.com/wp-content/themes/clean-copy-full-3-column-1/images/the_more_you_know2.jpg

Geoffrey Thompson
12-16-2009, 06:25 PM
Jay, the Games are too random to be a real test. I think a much more exciting comp would be(with an hour or two between each event) :

AM Saturday:
Snatch
C&J
Overhead Press


The rest redacted. If you're doing this, you might as well keep the old order and clean it before pressing: Clean and Press, Snatch, Clean and Jerk.

Tom Woodward
12-16-2009, 06:27 PM
Tom, if you have to ask that question about progress and training direction, then maybe you don't understand the nature of CF. It is random and geared towards doing well at a lot of different things. Its not geared towards structure in training, its random.

No, I get it. I even did it for a while. Do you really buy into the concept that you should randomize your workouts forever as is the nature of CF? Even if you're intent on getting good at a number of things, why not identify them and take a tactical approach at periodizing them over a year or multiple years? This seems like a better approach that opening dot com and saying, well I guess I'll be improving my AMRAP turkish get ups tomorrow.

I wouldn't put an athlete on mainsite training... A lot of CrossFitters structure their lifting training (I do) and some don't.

Sounds like you don't really buy into the randomness if you yourself consciously program lifting for you and your serious athletes. And in my opinion, once you do that, you're not even doing CrossFit anymore. People have been lifting on progression programs and doing conditioning for decades.

Jay Ashman
12-16-2009, 06:45 PM
No, I get it. I even did it for a while. Do you really buy into the concept that you should randomize your workouts forever as is the nature of CF? Even if you're intent on getting good at a number of things, why not identify them and take a tactical approach at periodizing them over a year or multiple years? This seems like a better approach that opening dot com and saying, well I guess I'll be improving my AMRAP turkish get ups tomorrow.the fact is that CF does work, and it will improve your fitness. I have never done mainpage nor will I ever do strictly mainpage workouts. I may pick and choose them for my programming at times, but that's all.

Each person has to choose what they want and what is best for them. I can show you people in CF who are excellent physical specimens just the same as I can show you guys who follow other workouts who are the same. CF works quickly and you can find numerous examples of it from testimonials on various affiliate pages and the CF board.

Sounds like you don't really buy into the randomness if you yourself consciously program lifting for you and your serious athletes. And in my opinion, once you do that, you're not even doing CrossFit anymore. People have been lifting on progression programs and doing conditioning for decades.
I don't like randomness for myself. If I was training for the games I would focus on being more random, but I am not. If you look at my workout blog/log you can see how I structure my programming and the style I prefer. I use CF principles in my training and with my clients but I adapt it to their needs. If I have an athlete its a lot of explosive/power moves with heavy sprints and sled work for conditioning. I'm not going to do constantly varied with a high school athlete by teaching him a new move such as the one arm chin up or muscle-up when I can get him field ready with the basics. I get paid and get clients based upon results and if I try to experiment with people with an athletic goal in mind, I lose and so do they.

Whereas I may take a baseball player and have him do a circuit of heavy squats and shuttle runs, is that CF, not necessarily, but it works.

Brian DeGennaro
12-16-2009, 07:24 PM
No matter what anyone says, the CF Games and Qualifiers are just people getting together to work out. It's like when my track or gymnastics buddies and I would get together off season and train together. We would hand pick random shit, throw it together, and work to beat one another at whatever we came up with. That's pretty much what the Games/Qualifiers are. It is not a competitive sport; it is just a way to get ... "fit," whatever that means. You can "CrossFit" for sport by doing SPP in a metcon type atmosphere, it's been done forever I think.

Alex Bond
12-16-2009, 08:07 PM
No, I get it. I even did it for a while. Do you really buy into the concept that you should randomize your workouts forever as is the nature of CF? Even if you're intent on getting good at a number of things, why not identify them and take a tactical approach at periodizing them over a year or multiple years? This seems like a better approach that opening dot com and saying, well I guess I'll be improving my AMRAP turkish get ups tomorrow.


CF isn't random. Why do we see 21-15-9 over and over, or AMRAP in 20 minutes? If it were really random, sometimes you'd do 15 minutes of Cindy and sometimes 25 and sometimes whatever. I've heard of people doing random workouts, they roll dice or draw cards to determine what they do each day. If you want to go whole hog random training, you flip a coin every day, heads you train, tails you don't. After all, real life/combat/law enforcement/fire fighting isn't 3 on 1 off. The "constantly varied" bit is just a way for Glassman to defend not making a overarching training plan public.

Tom Rawls
12-16-2009, 08:15 PM
The "constantly varied" bit is just a way for Glassman to defend not making a overarching training plan public.

There's a master plan, but we can't be trusted with it? We're too dumb to understand it.

If it true that you say 21-15-9 backwards at 33 rpm, you can hear Charles Atlas explain dynamic tension?

Gant Grimes
12-16-2009, 08:44 PM
http://anonymousradioshow.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/xenu7.jpg

Herm Blancaflor
12-16-2009, 09:54 PM
Regarding the Progenex comments...this is my comment which got deleted, verbatim:

7. Herm wrote...
December 11, 2009 6:57 PM

Have we not learned anything?

Don't buy in to protein powder. Waste of money. Eat real, high quality Paleolithic foods. Progenex is being pumped up because of it's sponsorship.

"PROGENEX products promise to make even the best protein supplements yesterday's news, because they contain concentrated bioactive milk protein fractions that Dr. Connelly has identified as powerful signaling molecules that target muscle recovery, growth, repair and strength."

This sounds as desperate as a MuscleTech commercial. What the hell are we getting targeted as naive for?

I'm friggin insulted, CrossFit.

Pat McElhone
12-17-2009, 03:15 AM
Is Scott Connelly the new nutrition guru (MD with clinical experience) at Crossfit?

Pat McElhone
12-17-2009, 03:24 AM
So what?

Bryan Clay's 1500m in 5:06 at Beijing in 2008 wouldn't have even placed in the top 5 at a regular high school track meet. Heck, I probably could have beat him in that event. (Not if he were well-rested, though.) Even his 1500m PR of 4:38 wouldn't win any high school track meets. But the guy is World Champion and Olympic Champion -- elite by my standards.

The whole "elite" aspect of CrossFit is ridiculously overblown. But Mikko Salo is incredibly impressive, and yes, elite.

It is nice to see Track and Field get mentioned here. I think too many forget that the sport of Athletics already exists. It tests conditioning in the various metabolic engines (running events), it tests the ability of one to move their body through space (jumping events, pole vault) and finally it tests strength (throwing events). It also tests to see who is the most well rounded (decent in everything, at the same time, sound familiar?) in the decathalon.

Garrett Smith
12-17-2009, 06:50 AM
Progenex is taking parts of milk and concentrating them.

This is basically drug/pharmaceutical technology and approach at work.

Cordain's work discussing the "tissue growth"-stimulating effects of certain fractions of milk as being a potential contributor to cancer would be an interesting thing for Progenex users to think about...

That and the obscene price.

Mike ODonnell
12-17-2009, 07:33 AM
Progenex is taking parts of milk and concentrating them.

That and the obscene price.

Overpriced milk.....nice. I'll take nature over science anytime....I'd rather drink the real stuff.

Blair Lowe
12-17-2009, 09:46 AM
Hmm, apparently the man behind Progenex was one of the founding members of Met-RX. One thread claims Progenex is NPO.

BAWF protein contains far higher total growth factor levels comprised from IGF-1, TGF-beta 1,. It contains much higher levels of various phospholipids and various bioactive lipids, such as conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), phosphotidyl-serine, phosphtidyl-choline, sphingomyelin, and higher levels of immunoglobulins and lactoferrin."

So, fancy, expensive whey protein that is way out my budget like everything else more interesting than Whey. Cute, but in a week I won't care.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6076221

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=170700.0



http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/106025-progenex.html

Mike ODonnell
12-17-2009, 09:59 AM
Cordain's work discussing the "tissue growth"-stimulating effects of certain fractions of milk as being a potential contributor to cancer would be an interesting thing for Progenex users to think about...

aka high IGF-1 = Increased risks for cancer cells to grow and multiply (since it is a growth factor for all cells....good and bad)?

Too much of anything is bad...GH, Test, Insulin, IGF-1, Cortisol...hence the body has built in regulation for it all....taking supplements outside of what is normal for the body (through natural levels, cycles, stimulation by exercise or food related) can lead to disruption of the natural checks and balances and more problems down the road.

Derek Weaver
12-17-2009, 02:08 PM
It is nice to see Track and Field get mentioned here. I think too many forget that the sport of Athletics already exists. It tests conditioning in the various metabolic engines (running events), it tests the ability of one to move their body through space (jumping events, pole vault) and finally it tests strength (throwing events). It also tests to see who is the most well rounded (decent in everything, at the same time, sound familiar?) in the decathalon.

Be careful Pat. Too many comments like that will get Couch to send the secret police after you. And bitch about someone stealing his intellectual property.

Steve Shafley
12-17-2009, 03:55 PM
Magic protein powder.

Here's something Glassman said about the same time he was talking bollocks about DJ and MT:

Tim Patterson (Owner of T-Nation),

You've inspired me to fund a scientific test of your supplements! Which one would you like us to check out first? This could be big for you. Can you see it..."The Truth About T-Nation". (Really big smile)

Derek Weaver
12-19-2009, 09:37 PM
I can't wait until this relationship goes sour as well and Glassman starts spitting venom towards Progenex's way. Somehow he'll take that $25k sponsorship and make it the basis of all evil. Of course, he'll do it in a stand up way... like on a comments section for an Affiliate blog.

I can't wait.