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Steve Romer
12-15-2009, 03:15 PM
Update
By Robb Wolf | December 15, 2009
We received communication last night from CF Legal that our affiliate license was to be terminated today. Greg Everett (Catalyst Athletics) received the same notice.

http://robbwolf.com/?p=1053 WFS

Well I think Greg and Robb should start their own national program. I will jump ship and never look back to crossfit.

Patrick Donnelly
12-15-2009, 06:09 PM
It would be funny if both of them began to post with frequency on the CrossFit message boards now.

Kermit Partain
12-15-2009, 06:12 PM
I am sure the moderators or admins would put an end to that before it even got started. They wouldnt even allow discussion about the Black Box Summit to take place.

George Mounce
12-15-2009, 06:35 PM
Noticed today that they weren't touting CrossFit on their sites. Good. F CrossFit HQ they just lost their two best affiliates, and I hope a lot of people see the light.

CrossFit needs get hit with the Pilates stick http://www.pilates.com/BBAPP/V/about/pilates-trademark-lawsuit.html

Steve Romer
12-15-2009, 07:12 PM
Crossfit is Dead. Time to move on without regret or looking back. From this point on I don't give a Fock about Crossfit, or their journals, or their certs and I am asking for my message board account to be closed. From this point on I will never even visit their site. I will not waste anymore my time trying to save that den of thieves from themselves.

I know I am a nobody but a sea of us nobodies are ready for something new.

Jane Michel
12-15-2009, 10:57 PM
Unbelievable...

And I agree with Shane that there's a big difference between the term "open source" as used within the software community and as used by Greg Glassman.

A real pity.

Blair Lowe
12-16-2009, 02:28 AM
It would be funny if both of them began to post with frequency on the CrossFit message boards now.

I noticed today that Greg was no longer a member on the board.

Anybody want a laugh? Read this.

http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/12/assholes.tpl#featureArticleTitle

Actually, there are fewer a-holes that are members of affiliates than...

Steve Romer
12-16-2009, 12:16 PM
I asked for my account to be closed at the CrossFit Message Board after they banned this posting:


For great summary of the Paelo Diet see: http://robbwolf.com/?p=1046

and the revoking of Robb and Greg's affiliation. Open source my ...

John C Carter
12-16-2009, 12:26 PM
there's a big difference between the term "open source" as used within the software community and as used by Greg Glassman.

You can make a mad-lib out of this:

"There's a big difference between the term "________" as used within the _______ community and as used by Couch."

It works for nearly anything he's ever opened his mouth about, really.

Casey Dupre
12-16-2009, 01:12 PM
I've asked for my account at the crossfit boards to be closed as well... along with my "recurring" journal subscription. What a load.

Ganine Vanalst
12-16-2009, 02:15 PM
I was reading today an argument regarding the validity of terminating an affiliates license based on lack of good will shown by the affiliate towards CrossFit. Good point, and I considered that myself as an Affiliate. After all, I certainly did not pay to join an organization just so I can turn around and disparage that organization. That would just be silly now wouldn't it?

But, call me crazy, I do expect it to work both ways. As far as I'm concerned the relationship should be reciprocal. I will be happy to have good will towards an organization I paid to be a part of and expect the same in kind. So what got me to feel that this reciprocal relationship did not exist and the organization I had joined did not seem to have the same good will towards me that I had intended to have towards them? For starters, a few months after I affiliated, specifically on 5/3/09, I read on the website (www.crossfitrrg.com) promoting the Risk Retention Group (RRG) the following:

"Imagine you have the best, most well-equipped CrossFit affiliate on the face of the Earth. Gleaming Olympic bars, dedicated platforms, all the climbing ropes and pull-up bars and bumper plates anyone could ever need or want. There are hundreds of people dying to join your affiliate, but youíd be a fool to open your doors and let them in. Why? Because if they hurt themselves and sue you, the result will bankrupt you."

So, I think to myself, if I proceed as planned with promoting myself as an Affiliate I am a fool, and a potentially bankrupt fool at that. That's nice. Why wasn't this disclosed to me before my money was accepted for affiliation? I certainly did not think I was joining an organization to be a fool. But, fool that I am at least I'm not alone, there were a good 1,000 or so (at that time) fools that came before me, so at least I'm in good company.

So while I'm still digesting the fact that I am a fool if I open a CrossFit gym as planned (unless I buy into the RRG of course, but then even if I do buy into the RRG I am a fool if I operate my gym until the RRG is formed and issues me a policy. And, OMG what if it doesn't get funded!!! I'll be doomed to be a fool forever...oops, sorry, rambled on a bit there), I come across another selling point to the RRG:

"Affiliates and trainers who donít participate risk being singled out and separated from the herd by opportunists. They will be devoured in the courtroom, stuck between an indifferent insurance company and omissions and errors in their insurance policy. When the time comes, they will be as valuable to the CF-RRG as the affiliates who do support it. By serving as sacrificial lambs, they will demonstrate the importance of being inside the castle wall."

So, the organization that I just paid to be a part of not only considers me to be a potentially bankrupt fool if I go ahead and open a gym as planned using the brand name I just paid for the privilege to use, but if I don't join the RRG they also see me as valuable to them as a sacrificial lamb. My good will was really starting to erode right about this time, but I figured rather than be silent regarding these tactics I found so disagreeable I'd hop on over to the affiliate section of the message board and share my views. Other than complaining about how broke I was (yes, I like to whine), I wrote the following (again, on 5/3/09):

"I thought the RRG was a great idea, but I don't like being coerced into contributing 100% or not at all. I don't do well with hard sells. I didn't much like the "sacrificial lamb" and "outside the castle wall" selling points to the RRG. That angle holds a vailed threat of noncompliance that is unnecessary and, frankly, vicious. I felt/feel it was completely unnecessary. I purchase things based on merit AND if I have the money. Not through peer pressure, coersion, vailed threats, or fear tactics. I thought/think the RRG has merit; I like the idea of taking ones destiny into ones own hands and protecting ones self. The RRG is supposed to have the affiliates best interest at heart but it does not have my best interest at heart because it is not in my best interest to not pay my rent next month and use up the little bit of a safety net I have remaining. If it's 100% or nothing count me in as a sacrificial lamb. Bah."

It should be noted I kept my opinion regarding this matter off the public message board out of good will and I limited voicing my complaints to the affiliate section of the board out of good will. That said, being a fool I didn't mention in my posts my dislike over being called a fool, but I did bring attention to my dislike over all the other tactics being used.

Now the economy was tanking at this point and many other affiliates were struggling financially, but this reality in the lives of many affiliates did not matter. Those affiliates that wanted to help and donate less than the required amount were told their money wasn't welcome and that it "wasn't the right thing to do" if they donated less than the full amount as an affiliate. We were repeatedly being told (via peer pressure) that if we really wanted to we could find the money to contribute. And for those affiliates like me who could not afford to join the RRG, well we could take heart in the fact that officially we would still serve a purpose for the cause in the form of being a sacrificial lamb. Several well-meaning affiliates replied to my posts and one suggested I not take the selling tactics personally, to which I replied in part:

"And I do take it personally, and I think that is the intent. The tone and methods of how this is being promoted is to make every affiliate feel personally responsible, so by extension if we don't contribute we are made to feel like sh*t for not doing so, even if we genuinely can't afford it. I really don't need stuff like that in my life and don't want to be associated with those that employ those sorts of methods. It's coercive. Irony is it is my understanding CrossFit has it's genesis in small gyms. Seems to me there may be a lot of "garage gyms" or small ventures like mine who may be in similar situations given the economy. I suspect there may be many struggling and/or new affiliates stretched beyond their means. I don't believe the answer for us is to give up. I've already invested too much time and money as it is. Struggle isn't so bad. I'd rather struggle financially than compromise on what I'm trying to accomplish. (And I do have a backup plan...if this don't work out I'm moving to Nevada to become a whore...one way or another I'm getting paid doing what I enjoy LOL.) I really just don't want to be lectured to concerning my choices (especially the whore one). I believe a previous poster actually offered to look over peoples financial documents to help "find" the money. What are we children??? Passion is one thing, presuming to know other's financial situation, presuming to have a say in how someone chooses to spend one's money, and presuming to lecture others on their finances is another. I don't buy lattes, I don't go out drinking (I stay home with my dog and read), I don't get my nails done, I haven't had my hair cut in 8 months (I cut my bangs myself so trust me, they look like sh*t), I don't throw my money away on frivolous things. But what I do decide to spend my money on is my choice. I think that those of us that can't contribute the full amount would have gladly contributed what we could afford. And I'm not compromising my credit for this...that's just absurd and will have long-lasting consequences that are not worth it. I would advise other's to think twice before using such means."

Now going back to the good will argument, I ain't no lawyer or anything like that, and I certainly have suffered from light reading comprehension skills in the past, but it seems clear to me that being called a fool headed for bankruptcy by executing my right to use the brand name I just paid for, being seen as a potential sacrificial lamb, and being coersed into contributing to an RRG using methods that show an utter disregard for my intelligence and immediate financial well being are not gestures of good will towards me. But hey, I've been known to be a bit dense at times.

P.S. Sorry to go all Cooperesque on your asses, but I needed to get that out of my system. I feel much better now. Time to move on.

George Mounce
12-16-2009, 06:57 PM
Ganine, did I ever tell you, you are my newest hero? Because you are. ;)

Justin Arnold
12-16-2009, 08:37 PM
Cooperesque.. haahaha

Herm Blancaflor
12-16-2009, 10:35 PM
Count me in with Mounce. Ganine, you are quite the free thinker. I admire that.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-17-2009, 05:24 AM
Ganine,
Count me in with George and Herm. Damn. I like the way you think. Very thoughtful, analytical, and honest. If at all else fails,......:D .....you've got Nevada. I loved that. :o

All the best,
Arden

sarena kopciel
12-17-2009, 07:45 AM
I too love it Ganine. I had stepped away from here (and long before from CF)for a while, am back and see the shit has hit the fan in that other world! Glad my repetitive injuries taught me a lesson. My lifting coaches are the best...

Ganine Vanalst
12-17-2009, 09:00 AM
Thanks guys!!!!! I would have preferred to have put the energy into promoting an affiliate as I had originally planned back when I was naive and full of hope :rolleyes:. Oh well.

I wonder what the weather is like in Nevada right about now. :D

Tom Rawls
12-17-2009, 09:07 AM
Some of the stunted minds at IGX are applauding you. i believe they would like to have social intercourse with you. Anyone who wins their approval is a rare talent.

Brandon Oto
12-17-2009, 10:09 AM
The funny thing here -- and meaning no offense to Ganine, who I also think is awesome -- is that all it really takes to stand out amongst all of this nuttery is to be basically sane and have some integrity.

From the sidelines, I certainly enjoy all the drama, but I hope we can all recognize that at some unknown point in the past, everyone in this circus lost our damn minds.

Steve Shafley
12-17-2009, 12:08 PM
Not social intercourse.

Ganine Vanalst
12-17-2009, 12:22 PM
Not social intercourse.

I'm saving myself for POD.

Steven Low
12-17-2009, 12:31 PM
I'm saving myself for POD.
ROFL.

Not if I sic the girls on him at UMCP.

Ganine Vanalst
12-17-2009, 12:36 PM
ROFL.

Not if I sic the girls on him at UMCP.

Hey hey hey...you're fucking with my master plan here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

POD and I will create the ultimate anti-CF love child.

A virgin sacrifice, conceived of hate at the foot of the altar of IGx.

Back off Low...back off. You're playing around with forces you don't understand.

I has been preordained.

Gant Grimes
12-17-2009, 12:42 PM
Hope you're patient.

Hey hey hey...you're fucking with my master plan here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

POD and I will create the ultimate anti-CF love child.

A virgin sacrifice, conceived of hate at the foot of the altar of IGx.

Back off Low...back off. You're playing around with forces you don't understand.

I has been preordained.

So, are you going to mate with POD or kill him?

Ganine Vanalst
12-17-2009, 12:43 PM
Hope you're patient.

I understand that patience is considered a virtue. I tend to find those a bit over rated. But I shall make an exception in this case and be virtuous for the greater good. If I can hold out as long as I did for reasonable explanations of things from x-Fit I can surely hold out for this.

Ganine Vanalst
12-17-2009, 12:44 PM
So, are you going to mate with POD or kill him?

Silly question. Both.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-17-2009, 12:53 PM
OH, for the love of christ, I think I just pissed myself laughing so hard. :D

My secretary even called in to ask if I was alright.

Ganine, you are AWESOME!!

all the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-17-2009, 12:54 PM
Not social intercourse.

Welcome back. :)

All the best,
Arden

Joe Hart
12-17-2009, 01:39 PM
Its the circle of life for Shaf.

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-17-2009, 02:18 PM
Just don;t mate with Rant.

Tom Rawls
12-17-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm saving myself for POD.

I wouldn't have imagined it to be possible, but there are now real men who wish they were POD.

Derek Simonds
12-17-2009, 02:47 PM
With all this excitement I just couldn't resist so I headed over to the crossfit board and low and behold I am persona non grata. Not sure how that happened as I have not posted there in years, much less posted anything objectionable. Hell just a couple of Jamie J. Skibicki's current posts were worse than anything I ever said on that board.

Oh well and Shaf welcome back. I will have you know that I am just a few measly pounds away from a 300 LB BS and 400 LB DL we were discussing prior to your not posting here.

Dave Van Skike
12-17-2009, 03:04 PM
Not social intercourse.

don't call it a comeback, he's been here for years.

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-17-2009, 03:07 PM
I can't believe the "750 lb deadlift" thread got shut down. I'm actaully pretty pissed about that. No said "CF sucks for saying such stupid shit". No on lambasted Glassman or the people that do the programming. CF is not a Strength program and thats fine if strength is not your focus. I think it would do better with more of strength focus, especially for novices. IN fact, my last post was about how over the top comment and clearly outlandish statements detract from a pretty good training program with amazing community support.

Seriously, if you have some mid 30 couch potato who has never worked out before at least not since highschool, community support is probably more important to getting them fit than anything else.

But the thread got shut down and I didn't see a single AUP violation in there.

At least I didn't mention gin or xenu.

Garrett Smith
12-17-2009, 03:23 PM
With all this excitement I just couldn't resist so I headed over to the crossfit board and low and behold I am persona non grata. Not sure how that happened as I have not posted there in years, much less posted anything objectionable. Hell just a couple of Jamie J. Skibicki's current posts were worse than anything I ever said on that board.

Oh well and Shaf welcome back. I will have you know that I am just a few measly pounds away from a 300 LB BS and 400 LB DL we were discussing prior to your not posting here.
Derek,
What do you mean when you say you are persona non grata over there?

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-17-2009, 03:27 PM
I wouldn't have imagined it to be possible, but there are now real men who wish they were POD.

Yes. Yes. That much is true.

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-17-2009, 03:33 PM
I can't believe the "750 lb deadlift" thread got shut down. I'm actaully pretty pissed about that. No said "CF sucks for saying such stupid shit". No on lambasted Glassman or the people that do the programming. CF is not a Strength program and thats fine if strength is not your focus. I think it would do better with more of strength focus, especially for novices. IN fact, my last post was about how over the top comment and clearly outlandish statements detract from a pretty good training program with amazing community support.

Seriously, if you have some mid 30 couch potato who has never worked out before at least not since highschool, community support is probably more important to getting them fit than anything else.

But the thread got shut down and I didn't see a single AUP violation in there.

At least I didn't mention gin or xenu.

I thought I was civil as well. Only a few folk on the planet could pull that off, and they would be very large strong human beings from birth. If I recall correctly, Glenn used the example of Gary Heisley. Long limbed, call, and big thick round back before he ever got into powerlifting and eventually pulled 901.

I won't be anything but Civil - ever. Life's too short.

All the best,
Arden

Patrick Donnelly
12-17-2009, 04:55 PM
Ragging on a guy for his faith? Uncool.

Kevin Perry
12-17-2009, 05:01 PM
Jeeze naturally I miss all the good shit while Im at work, a woman interested in making an evil anti-CF child at the doorstep of IGX with POD? Learn wisely young padawan. Derek getting punked at the CF boards for no reason? probably by Lynn huh? A 750# DL thread getting shut down at the boards? Never put crossfit and 750# deadlift in the same sentence, it's an insult to people that actually lift weights.

Ganine Vanalst
12-17-2009, 05:27 PM
Ragging on a guy for his faith? Uncool.

Not ragging, just some good natured ribbing; I figured since you are an IGx member you could take it. No offense meant. I respect your decisions, and although I'm agnostic myself, your faith. My apologies if I offended you.

Jamie, sorry, but I'm afraid that leaves Rant.

CM: Like you, I prefer to stay in deep cover.

Ganine Vanalst
12-17-2009, 05:29 PM
Tom, Arden:

You are both very sweet. Thank you!

Robert Callahan
12-17-2009, 06:15 PM
I can't believe the "750 lb deadlift" thread got shut down. I'm actaully pretty pissed about that. No said "CF sucks for saying such stupid shit". No on lambasted Glassman or the people that do the programming.

...

But the thread got shut down and I didn't see a single AUP violation in there.

At least I didn't mention gin or xenu.

Dude, there has been thread after thread sent to the bucket and closed with absolutely ZERO AUP violations in the last month. Between that and people getting banned and put "on notice" for stuff that happens on other boards that place is going to drive away all the free thinking innovative people it once drew in...

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-17-2009, 06:16 PM
Tom, Arden:

You are both very sweet. Thank you!

My pleasure. And the good thing about me is that i'm fixed, pussy whipped and completely and utterly happily married, so i'm effectively neutered and completely harmless. Despite my scary disposition, my advocation and my choice of hobbys.

And absolutely no offense in anything i've said or written anywhere is meant to offend Patrick. I admire his commitment.

All the best,
Arden

Shane Skowron
12-17-2009, 06:28 PM
Dude, there has been thread after thread sent to the bucket and closed with absolutely ZERO AUP violations in the last month. Between that and people getting banned and put "on notice" for stuff that happens on other boards that place is going to drive away all the free thinking innovative people it once drew in...

Yes. Suppressing controversial discussion and information is the antithesis of the open source model -- the model that brought about Crossfit's popularity in the first place.

Steve Shafley
12-17-2009, 06:34 PM
1 article for MILO assuming you're talking to me. 2 articles that were rejected and are kicking around somewhere on the P&B. You must be thinking of someone else, maybe Steve Bryski.

Garrett Smith
12-17-2009, 06:42 PM
Shane,
I would guess that few people, at this point, believe that CF was ever really "open source".

It was stated that it was "open source", true, the concept of which attracted a lot of people.

However, I believe what Glassman meant by "open source" was that if he liked something and wanted to use it, he would try to integrate it into his program in as unnoticeable a way as possible. This might have been so that credit didn't need to be given to others.

In fact, other than trimming away certain aspects/exercises (like most things remotely gymnastic), increasing the rep counts of metcon workouts overall, and increasing the proportion of "strength-biased" workouts, I would say that CF has changed very little over the years...implying that they aren't very open-source at all.

This is even more obvious considering the brains that have been a part of CF community in times past, only to leave because of the lack of openness to outside ideas.

Steve Shafley
12-17-2009, 06:43 PM
Plus, just because I was graciously unbanned from here doesn't mean that I'm going to go balls out batshit with bile filled posts regarding the current situation. I've always respected guys like Robb and Greg and other quality people associated with XF.

The big thing with me is that, once upon a time, a friend of mine was subjected to an attempted character assassination by the founder of XF, and that was that.

Arien Malec
12-17-2009, 06:51 PM
The big thing with me is that, once upon a time, a friend of mine was subjected to an attempted character assassination by the founder of XF, and that was that.

Ratio of people who have been character assassinated and/or pissed off by dear leader that I've learned a ton from vs. people who are still associated is something like 8/1. Character assassination seems like a seal of approval to me...

George Mounce
12-17-2009, 06:56 PM
Ratio of people who have been character assassinated and/or pissed off by dear leader that I've learned a ton from vs. people who are still associated is something like 8/1. Character assassination seems like a seal of approval to me...

Yes, they love to assassinate people's characters. I wear my tag "Banned for Ethical and Integrity Violations" proudly over there.

Shane Skowron
12-17-2009, 07:06 PM
Garrett, you're right. It's taken me far too long to realize that, though.

Garrett Smith
12-17-2009, 07:13 PM
No worries, Shane. Nearly everybody here has tasted or drank the Kool-Aid at one point.

I know I did. I learned I like my own homebrewed stuff better.

Derek Weaver
12-17-2009, 09:57 PM
We all make mistakes Shane.

Derek Simonds
12-18-2009, 04:10 AM
Derek,
What do you mean when you say you are persona non grata over there?

My account is locked. When I logged in I kept getting a you are not authorized to do this message. I thought that was weird so I tried to search for any of my posts over the years and couldn't find any. The only thing that came up were posts by Greg or Monique with my name in it. So than I tried to reply to a thread about a garage gym and I got "your comment is being held for moderation response".

I haven't been there in so long it is no loss, but as Arden said life is to short to be anything but civil and I believe that is the way I have always behaved over there.

Brian Stone
12-18-2009, 06:02 AM
Derek S., alas civil dissent is still dissent.

Steve Shafley
12-18-2009, 06:26 AM
I'm curious, why would you even bother posting at the XF.com forums. The actual interesting discussions and commentaries died out years ago over there. It's kind of a starter forum to get your feet wet before you find more interesting and productive places to post.

Garrett Smith
12-18-2009, 07:31 AM
I like Gant's status on the XF board:

"Departed". Ha.

Jay Cohen
12-18-2009, 09:10 AM
I'm curious, why would you even bother posting at the XF.com forums. The actual interesting discussions and commentaries died out years ago over there. It's kind of a starter forum to get your feet wet before you find more interesting and productive places to post.


Spot on comment.

Joe Hart
12-18-2009, 09:17 AM
Steve is right. I started on XF and migrated to PM. During that time of migration I found some really good stuff that I would not have found on my own without some exposure to it on XF.

One thing...I don't get tendonitis anymore now that I don't XF. That ass load of pullups was killing me.

The good things that came from XF

OLY
KBs
Prowlers and strongman stuff
Nutrition.

The other stuff I can do without...


I wonder what ever happened to Eugene and Larry?

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-18-2009, 09:31 AM
I found Rip, StartingStrength and Competitive weightlifting through CF.

Chris Forbis
12-18-2009, 10:00 AM
I found this place thanks to the Crossfit forum.

I found Crossfit from a Zone forum. True story.

Steve Romer
12-18-2009, 10:09 AM
My account is locked. When I logged in I kept getting a you are not authorized to do this message. I thought that was weird so I tried to search for any of my posts over the years and couldn't find any. The only thing that came up were posts by Greg or Monique with my name in it. So than I tried to reply to a thread about a garage gym and I got "your comment is being held for moderation response".

I haven't been there in so long it is no loss, but as Arden said life is to short to be anything but civil and I believe that is the way I have always behaved over there.

Derek

Welcome to the Club.

Steve Shafley
12-18-2009, 10:27 AM
OLY
KBs
Prowlers and strongman stuff
Nutrition.

OLY: Goheavy's OL forum
KBs: MILO magazine's original Pavel article (Vodka, Picklejuice, etc)
Prowlers: EliteFTS
Nutrition: I'd have to say books I'd read.

The only new thing I've really seen via CF.com forums happened today, when a CF.com link referred me to Boundgods.com, a gay S&M site.

Fortunately for me, I fixed that referrer function in Firefox.

Ganine Vanalst
12-18-2009, 11:24 AM
I just posted this on Robb's blog but thought I'd post it here as well since I suspect some of you might be interested in the article I linked to. First, at the risk of sounding paranoid, let me state that I am paranoid and, therefore, feel a disclaimer is in order. The article involves a religious organization - I don't want that to be taken together with my playing around with POD (again, POD, sorry if I offended you) and misconstrued as my bashing people's religious beliefs. I am not. I read the New Testament in my early teens and was profoundly influenced by it. That said, the article my link points to is absolutely fucking dead on (I think any ways).

REPOST FROM ROBB'S BLOG:

What you are advocating is that Robb adhere to "a code of silence." Many abusive organizations operate under such a code. Robb has elected to break free of that code; it can't be easy for him to take this stand given how much time he has invested in CrossFit and his obvious, considerable and enduring love of the CrossFit community.

I was thinking about this situation and considering view points like yours and asking myself if they had any validity, but something about those viewpoints make me very uneasy. While thinking this through from all sides the term "code of silence" popped into my head and I did a bit of goggling and found this EXCELLENT, albeit long, article that I recommend you read that sums up quite well the dynamics at play here:

Code of Silence (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/AssemblyTeachingPractice/CodeOfSilence.htm)

There are so many parallels between what is happening in this situation and the experiences of those in that article it is freaky.

Look at how Barry was treated when he spoke out and did his best to build bridges between all parties. He is a true believer and his heart was in the right place; I suspect right now he is going through a bit of a crisis because of his faith.

Scott Kustes
12-18-2009, 11:54 AM
What happened to Barry?

Garrett Smith
12-18-2009, 12:14 PM
Joe,
I'm sure the XF forum got as mind-numbing to Eugene and Larry as it did to most others after long enough. I did see Larry's name as a contributor to the RRG in the "affiliate" section, so I'm assuming he's still a part of it.

Oh yeah, if Barry got his ass handed to him by XF internet warriors, then they have only confirmed that they are REALLY in a deadly tailspin...I'm interested in the story too.

Ganine Vanalst
12-18-2009, 01:04 PM
The way I perceived it he was earnestly trying to be a peacemaker and was effectively silenced. That was what I observed before being blocked from the affiliate section of the board. Not sure what unfolded after wards.

I felt for him because it seemed to me he really believed that he was involved in an organization that aspired to certain values and ideals and was beginning to realize perhaps that was not the case. I don't want to speak for him - I don't know him, have not had any communications with him, and it is not my place to do so, but I will say I got the feeling the situation was truly causing him a lot of psychic pain/discomfort and he was becoming disillusioned.

He has been unusually silent lately and I suspect that is why. I could be completely wrong in my assessment, but that is how I saw it. Regardless, I think he really did try his best, and the only other thing I will say on the matter is, Barry, if you should read this, some of us do appreciate your efforts even if we knew they would not be fruitful. Channel that prodigious talent of yours for writing into something that will give you a better return for your investment.

Aaron Austin
12-18-2009, 01:42 PM
You're talking about Barry Cooper right Ganine?

Ganine Vanalst
12-18-2009, 02:13 PM
You're talking about Barry Cooper right Ganine?

Yes.

Steve Romer
12-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Barry Cooper defended CFHQ in this mess. Why would they clip his wings?

Mike ODonnell
12-18-2009, 03:55 PM
I'm curious, why would you even bother posting at the XF.com forums. The actual interesting discussions and commentaries died out years ago over there. It's kind of a starter forum to get your feet wet before you find more interesting and productive places to post.

Shaf, good to see the petition worked!

I went back to the forums recently again (after being in there and walking away long ago after the Mike Boyle stuff went down) to help out people only in the nutrition part and stayed away from all the other stuff.

Although now with the Zone certifications and everything else related to HQ's behavior including no longer promoting a true open source environment for its community....I'm going to leave once again.

CF brought me to PMenu and exposure to many of the other great minds around.....so no hard feelings.

Brian Stone
12-18-2009, 04:08 PM
I'm curious, why would you even bother posting at the XF.com forums. The actual interesting discussions and commentaries died out years ago over there. It's kind of a starter forum to get your feet wet before you find more interesting and productive places to post.

Exactly. This is why I can't figure out why all the outraged discussion about account closings over there, particularly after they became militant in censoring people. Before they just had subpar content; now it's censored subpar content.

Gary John
12-18-2009, 04:26 PM
I'm so happy I was unbanned from PM.

The days and weeks I have longed to post again.

I promise to behave and not offend.

Gonna stay away from the whole x-fit subject, cuz, can't we all just get along.:) :) :) :)

Steve Romer
12-18-2009, 04:56 PM
I just posted this on Robb's blog but thought I'd post it here as well since I suspect some of you might be interested in the article I linked to. First, at the risk of sounding paranoid, let me state that I am paranoid and, therefore, feel a disclaimer is in order. The article involves a religious organization - I don't want that to be taken together with my playing around with POD (again, POD, sorry if I offended you) and misconstrued as my bashing people's religious beliefs. I am not. I read the New Testament in my early teens and was profoundly influenced by it. That said, the article my link points to is absolutely fucking dead on (I think any ways).

REPOST FROM ROBB'S BLOG:

What you are advocating is that Robb adhere to "a code of silence." Many abusive organizations operate under such a code. Robb has elected to break free of that code; it can't be easy for him to take this stand given how much time he has invested in CrossFit and his obvious, considerable and enduring love of the CrossFit community.

I was thinking about this situation and considering view points like yours and asking myself if they had any validity, but something about those viewpoints make me very uneasy. While thinking this through from all sides the term "code of silence" popped into my head and I did a bit of goggling and found this EXCELLENT, albeit long, article that I recommend you read that sums up quite well the dynamics at play here:

Code of Silence (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/AssemblyTeachingPractice/CodeOfSilence.htm)

There are so many parallels between what is happening in this situation and the experiences of those in that article it is freaky.

Look at how Barry was treated when he spoke out and did his best to build bridges between all parties. He is a true believer and his heart was in the right place; I suspect right now he is going through a bit of a crisis because of his faith.

Ganine

I read the Code of Silence link and I must say it hits the nail right on the head. All those at the CrossFit Forum who violated the Code of Silence are being put in Moderation Mode. This allows the Moderators to control those Code of Silence Breakers from speaking up. It is worst than being banned because only my words which seem supportive of CFHQ are allowed to be posted in the forum. This gives an illusion that I support the actions of abuse handed out by CFHQ.

I rather be banned than Moderated, so I told the Enforcers of the Code Of Silence (the Focking Moderators) to close my Account. The Code of Silence has allowed CrossFit to become a Cult with the Glassmans as the spiritual leaders of the Cult.

In a Cult the Silence must be Enforced so nothing can slow down the cash being funneled to the Cult leaders. The Cert course held by the CFQH funnels multi-millions of dollars into the Glassmans pockets every year. These funds come from CrossFit Cult followers who paid a $1,000 each for level 1 and level 2 Cert courses. The Revenue from these Level 1 and Level 2 are not shared with the hosting affiliated. Why? Is it because in a Cult all profits must go to the spiritual leaders?

Robb and Greg were made examples of what can and will happen to any affiliate who dares to speak up or hold their own courses. You will be excommunicated; Anyone that threatens even one penny of the level 1 and 2 Cert money being totally funneled to the spiritual leaders of CrossFit must be casted out of the cult.

Ganine Vanalst
12-18-2009, 08:35 PM
Ganine

I read the Code of Silence link and I must say it hits the nail right on the head. All those at the CrossFit Forum who violated the Code of Silence are being put in Moderation Mode. This allows the Moderators to control those Code of Silence Breakers from speaking up. It is worst than being banned because only my words which seem supportive of CFHQ are allowed to be posted in the forum. This gives an illusion that I support the actions of abuse handed out by CFHQ.

I rather be banned than Moderated, so I told the Enforcers of the Code Of Silence (the Focking Moderators) to close my Account. The Code of Silence has allowed CrossFit to become a Cult with the Glassmans as the spiritual leaders of the Cult.

In a Cult the Silence must be Enforced so nothing can slow down the cash being funneled to the Cult leaders. The Cert course held by the CFQH funnels multi-millions of dollars into the Glassmans pockets every year. These funds come from CrossFit Cult followers who paid a $1,000 each for level 1 and level 2 Cert courses. The Revenue from these Level 1 and Level 2 are not shared with the hosting affiliated. Why? Is it because in a Cult all profits must go to the spiritual leaders?

Robb and Greg were made examples of what can and will happen to any affiliate who dares to speak up or hold their own courses. You will be excommunicated; Anyone that threatens even one penny of the level 1 and 2 Cert money being totally funneled to the spiritual leaders of CrossFit must be casted out of the cult.

I wasn't aware revenue wasn't shared with hosting affiliates. You sure about that? I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere that they do make some money, but I'm not sure.

IGx has been shedding light on the cult-like parallels for quite some time now, so I can't take credit. But that article/essay had it all nicely and succinctly laid out in one place and gives a good overview of the dynamics from people who have been through it and can see it now clearly in retrospect. Robb is getting criticism for the way he has handled this, put if you analyze his actions in the context of how the code of silence works and the repercussions for breaking that code it helps greatly to explain (in my opinion) why he felt he had to do what he did.

Like others who have come before you have said above, you are in a better place now. I've done a lot of reading on the CF board and much of the good quality stuff on the CF board came from the people who are here anyway or from people who were banned or left, so it's no great loss to not be a member of the CultFit board.

P.S. I fixed your quote above. I learned that from IGx :D

Shane Skowron
12-18-2009, 10:11 PM
Exactly. This is why I can't figure out why all the outraged discussion about account closings over there, particularly after they became militant in censoring people. Before they just had subpar content; now it's censored subpar content.

On Dec 18 WOD comments, someone posted the standard comment about "this is a FREE website it's amazing we should never complain cause it's FREE." And I made the comment "It's free to visit, but not open source. "
Someone else made the comment "and heavily censored."

I lated found both of those comments were erased. But the responses to those comments remain. Hilarious -- it actually proves my point.

Steve Romer
12-18-2009, 10:14 PM
Ganine

I talk to a CrossFit affiliate owner a couple weeks ago about the Certs and he was the one who told me that CFHQ kept all the money. He said CFHQ thinks the affiliates should be thankful for the opportunity to host the Cert without a share of the Revenue.

And you are right I meant violated and not validated LOL

Lastly this is a much better place and thanks for the welcome.

Ganine Vanalst
12-18-2009, 10:38 PM
Ganine

I talk to a CrossFit affiliate owner a couple weeks ago about the Certs and he was the one who told me that CFHQ kept all the money. He said CFHQ thinks the affiliates should be thankful for the opportunity to host the Cert without a share of the Revenue.

And you are right I meant violated and validated LOL

Lastly this is a much better place and thanks for the welcome.

Wow, I find it hard to believe that those terms would be acceptable to an affiliate. If that is true that is unconscionable.

Garrett Smith
12-19-2009, 05:24 AM
IIRC, the hosting affiliate got one or two free attendees at the seminar. It was a joke.

Derek Simonds
12-19-2009, 06:51 AM
IIRC, the hosting affiliate got one or two free attendees at the seminar. It was a joke.

Same way I recall it. I could care less about posting on there, only reason I went was to see if I was banned. I was, story over for me.

Off to BJJ with my daughter.

Steve Romer
12-19-2009, 11:03 AM
Wow, I find it hard to believe that those terms would be acceptable to an affiliate. If that is true that is unconscionable.

Well in cults making your spiritual leader rich at your expense isn't unconscionable. The belief is the spiritual leader deserves it for all that he does for us. That sounds like CrossFit to me.

Ganine Vanalst
12-19-2009, 12:22 PM
The belief is the spiritual leader deserves it for all that he does for us.

But...but, Steve, the WODS are posted for FREE! What ingrates we must be.

It's actually a good business strategy. Look at the products that are given away for free or sold for very low cost. It's smart to do so because the real money comes from the supplies the consumer must purchase over the lifetime of the product.

Take those wasteful mop contraptions that use disposable wipes/pads. You can give those away for free and still make a lot of money from the wipes alone. It behooves you to give away a product if there is good money to be made from the purchase of supplies (affiliate fees, certs, and the journal, a link to which is mandatory for affiliates to provide on their websites...hmm, that spacks a bit of regulation, but granted it may be a stretch).

Another example is what drug dealers do, give away some good product for free because it is worth it to get the person hooked and thereby create a lifetime customer.

I'm not saying the practice in and of itself is necessarily bad, it's smart. But pretending that the underlying motivation is anything but monetary gain is unscrupulous and dishonest.

Well in cults making your spiritual leader rich at your expense isn't unconscionable.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying it was unconscionable on the part of the affiliates. I think it is unconscionable of HQ to take advantage of the good will of affiliates in that manner, even if the affiliates are amenable to the arrangement. I know I'd have trouble sleeping at night taking advantage of someone like that even if they were willing to let me.

Shane Skowron
12-19-2009, 12:51 PM
Take those wasteful mop contraptions that use disposable wipes/pads. You can give those away for free and still make a lot of money from the wipes alone. It behooves you to give away a product if there is good money to be made from the purchase of supplies (affiliate fees, certs, and the journal, a link to which is mandatory for affiliates to provide on their websites...hmm, that spacks a bit of regulation, but granted it may be a stretch).


Exactly. On that note, Gillette sent me a Fusion razor for my 18th birthday a few years ago. How they got my birthdate -- I do not know and was quite disturbed by that. But it was great marketing on their part because three years later I'm still buying blades for that thing.

It's "FREE!" primarily because it's a great way to make money. It's obvious it's not "FREE!" because it's a service to the fitness community, no matter how hard they try to push that point.

Steve Romer
12-19-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm not saying the practice in and of itself is necessarily bad, it's smart. But pretending that the underlying motivation is anything but monetary gain is unscrupulous and dishonest.

It is only dishonest if you are dishonest about it. The CFHQ acts like they give us the WOD for free because they want to help people. They use it market their product at a very low cost.

Even the CrossFit Journal is nothing more than a marketing tool. At least 80% of the material in the Journal is marketing material. In other words they just give the Journal Client just enough information to get the client to spend more money on another CrossFit product. I ended up paying CrossFit to market their courses to me. What a waste of money. Yes CFHQ is smart but honest no.



Just to be clear, I wasn't saying it was unconscionable on the part of the affiliates. I think it is unconscionable of HQ to take advantage of the good will of affiliates in that manner, even if the affiliates are amenable to the arrangement.

But if the Affiliates were just business people and not also cult followers they would demand their fair share of the profits for certs held at their boxes at their expense.

I know I'd have trouble sleeping at night taking advantage of someone like that even if they were willing to let me.

But you are a good person and not a Cult Spiritual Leader.

Some here may be wondering who I am and why I am using so much energy on this topic. Well I am ex-cult follower of CFHQ and the fallout from the Black Box Seminar shocked me back into the real world. So I am venting to heal myself and help others see the light of reality.

Thanks to Greg for giving a place to vent and I hope I my venting did not cause him any harm.

Mike ODonnell
12-19-2009, 02:49 PM
It is only dishonest if you are dishonest about it. The CFHQ acts like they give us the WOD for free because they want to help people. They use it market their product at a very low cost.

Even the CrossFit Journal is nothing more than a marketing tool. At least 80% of the material in the Journal is marketing material. In other words they just give the Journal Client just enough information to get the client to spend more money on another CrossFit product. I ended up paying CrossFit to market their courses to me. What a waste of money. Yes CFHQ is smart but honest no.

I don't think a free giveaway is dishonest at all (even if there is a company behind it). Everyone does it....personal trainers, massage therapists, chiropractors, restaurants.....give something away for free for a limited/full time and then see if you can get more customers because of it for another service/product (after all, it is a business....not a charity). The internet and all the information that is free on it nowadays has made that a necessary evolution for online business as well (who doesn't give away free content of some sort to draw attention at first?).

I don't shun people helping others and still wanting to make a living at it, that is not immoral nor dishonest in principle. The client/customer has the personal choice to take the free stuff and just walk away....or buy something else.

However...it is how things are sold that determines the honesty and fairness of a company. Using tactics such as false advertising, deceptive marketing, bait and switch, promoting an inferior product as something else, purposely taking advantage of the consumer, overcharging, passing off unsubstantiated information as fact inorder to just sell something or just not delivering what is promised are all dishonest practices. That determines the morality of a company and it's product/service. Every company will have a motive to make money and that is just reality, it's just how they go about doing it that should be examined.

....as there is always more than one company that sells razors out there...so you can always switch it up.

Steve Romer
12-19-2009, 03:10 PM
I don't think a free giveaway is dishonest at all (even if there is a company behind it). Everyone does it....personal trainers, massage therapists, chiropractors, restaurants.....give something away for free for a limited/full time and then see if you can get more customers because of it for another service/product (after all, it is a business....not a charity). The internet and all the information that is free on it nowadays has made that a necessary evolution for online business as well (who doesn't give away free content of some sort to draw attention at first?).

I don't shun people helping others and still wanting to make a living at it, that is not immoral nor dishonest in principle. The client/customer has the personal choice to take the free stuff and just walk away....or buy something else.

However...it is how things are sold that determines the honesty and fairness of a company. Using tactics such as false advertising, deceptive marketing, bait and switch, promoting an inferior product as something else, purposely taking advantage of the consumer, overcharging, passing off unsubstantiated information as fact inorder to just sell something or just not delivering what is promised are all dishonest practices. That determines the morality of a company and it's product/service. Every company will have a motive to make money and that is just reality, it's just how they go about doing it that should be examined.

....as there is always more than one company that sells razors out there...so you can always switch it up.

I have no problem with CFHQ making money but when they tell us they are above criticism because of all the free stuff they give away, I feel they are being dishonest.

Mike ODonnell
12-19-2009, 03:46 PM
I have no problem with CFHQ making money but when they tell us they are above criticism because of all the free stuff they give away, I feel they are being dishonest.

We are on the same page...although technically that is not so much dishonest as it is delusional.

Patrick Donnelly
12-19-2009, 05:41 PM
Exactly. On that note, Gillette sent me a Fusion razor for my 18th birthday a few years ago. How they got my birthdate -- I do not know and was quite disturbed by that. But it was great marketing on their part because three years later I'm still buying blades for that thing.
How long do your Fusion blades last? I was able to make the one that I got in the mail for my birthday last nine months before replacing it. (Granted, this was only shaving once every 2-3 days, not daily.) I've since bought a package of replacement razors - something like 18 replacements for $35 - which wasn't cheap, but if the rest of them hold up as long, that's still a few years' worth of blades. It's a quality product, IMO.

Steve Romer
12-19-2009, 06:33 PM
We are on the same page...although technically that is not so much dishonest as it is delusional.

I accept your correction.

Shane Skowron
12-19-2009, 07:49 PM
How long do your Fusion blades last? I was able to make the one that I got in the mail for my birthday last nine months before replacing it. (Granted, this was only shaving once every 2-3 days, not daily.) I've since bought a package of replacement razors - something like 18 replacements for $35 - which wasn't cheap, but if the rest of them hold up as long, that's still a few years' worth of blades. It's a quality product, IMO.

I usually go 2 months before I have to replace the blade. I usually have to shave every other day. But yeah, it's a good product.

Garrett Smith
12-20-2009, 05:17 AM
Shaving...bah. Hair clippers, shortest setting.

Shane Skowron
12-20-2009, 11:55 AM
New post from RW's blog:
http://robbwolf.com/?p=1100

Tom Woodward
12-20-2009, 03:46 PM
He could teach a hell of a character assassination certification if he wanted to.

Steve Romer
12-20-2009, 06:50 PM
Well the Cult Leaders of CFHQ speak again and lied again. How surprising.;)

peace warson
12-20-2009, 07:15 PM
so confident that he doesn't care anymore?

Derek Weaver
12-20-2009, 08:13 PM
I think that at this point, one of the key questions that should be asked is... where is the footage of the "totally rad meltdown" from the Black Box Summit?

I understand that those who have the footage may not be all that excited about releasing it, but considering what's gone on with Greg and Robb being slandered by Couch and some of his other cronies.... I mean, isn't it a question of integrity?

I guarantee that if the " CF Community" actually sees any of this that things may change. I'm sure that Dear Leader will try to find a way to spin it, but who really has that kind of damage control capability?

Steve Romer
12-20-2009, 08:29 PM
I think that at this point, one of the key questions that should be asked is... where is the footage of the "totally rad meltdown" from the Black Box Summit?

I understand that those who have the footage may not be all that excited about releasing it, but considering what's gone on with Greg and Robb being slandered by Couch and some of his other cronies.... I mean, isn't it a question of integrity?

I guarantee that if the " CF Community" actually sees any of this that things may change. I'm sure that Dear Leader will try to find a way to spin it, but who really has that kind of damage control capability?

Well Said

George Mounce
12-20-2009, 09:57 PM
Man, I've been enjoying the popcorn on this one. Just makes me smile.

peace warson
12-20-2009, 10:43 PM
getting so big so fast, can see cfhq not giving a crap about damage. they can absorb it.

James Evans
12-21-2009, 05:23 AM
Greg, Aimee, Gant

Fair points all round and I totally respect your position.

I apologise for calling Barry a prick.

But not about Glassman and the kittens.

For many of you who are new to the 'being upset and outraged club' do you now see why Garry has been so pissed off for so long about what was said about his brother?

Let's all get back to talking about:

1. Training
2. Eating
3. Guinness
4. UFOs

Jamila Bey
12-21-2009, 06:37 AM
I too love it Ganine. I had stepped away from here (and long before from CF)for a while, am back and see the shit has hit the fan in that other world! Glad my repetitive injuries taught me a lesson. My lifting coaches are the best...

Yeah... get into cloth diapers and wool covers and the world falls apart while you're planning for potty training!

Garrett Smith
12-21-2009, 06:46 AM
Yeah... get into cloth diapers and wool covers and the world falls apart while you're planning for potty training!
SHE SPEAKS!!! :D

Now Jamila, I'm doing cloth diapers and baby duty too...you don't see me falling behind! :p

Steve Shafley
12-21-2009, 07:03 AM
"Cloth diapers and co-sleeping have ruined life for many men."

Jamila Bey
12-21-2009, 07:18 AM
I'm just a godless heathen loudmouth who fancies herself a journalist. I ain't the smartest (paleo) cookie you're ever gonna meet, but I work the sh*t out of the few brain cells I have and I ask a lot of rather good questions.

I get really suspicious of people who won't answer a straight question- especially when it's posed in a pointed way. I noticed this really early on with the higher ups...

I never got along with girls in elementary school because I didn't do the game play well. "You're friends with them and they said something mean and you didn't defend me so all of my friends will be mean to you!" I'm good at recognizing that schoolyard tactic- and when this was used against one of the most giving and knowledgeable coaches I've ever had the chance to meet, I was on high alert.

I saw the groupthink and the coercive belief systems on that politics front page and I don't know of anyone or any collective that can be so rigid and closeminded in one part of his/her/its existence and be "open source" anywhere else.

But I took my tubby ass elsewhere and knew that the chickens would be home roosting soon enough.

Cluck cluck cluck.

Not to speak poorly of chickens.

Mike ODonnell
12-21-2009, 08:48 AM
+1 to keeping it real, sticking to the facts, no personal attacks, less ranting, more moving forward and past the old crap, and much love with Guinness and UFOs.

when in doubt....just remember the motto:
http://www.dmbosstone.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/stay_classy.jpg

Now back to planning the BeerFit Games....which will involve feats of strength much like Festivus and of course....das boot!

Justin Arnold
12-21-2009, 08:49 AM
Brilliant post, that one. (Jamila's) Bravo

Garrett Smith
12-21-2009, 10:00 AM
"Cloth diapers and co-sleeping have ruined life for many men."
Cloth diapers are no problem...co-sleeping, never done it. Small business + baby = tough for any life to take.

Thanks to my buddy for apprising me of the study where they found mothers who take enough fish oil during pregnancy have babies that sleep through the night earlier. Heck, my baby girl slept until 9 freakin' AM the other day.

Quackery, I tell you. :D

Andy Robinson
12-21-2009, 10:03 AM
Cloth diapers are no problem...co-sleeping, never done it. Small business + baby = tough for any life to take.

Thanks to my buddy for apprising me of the study where they found mothers who take enough fish oil during pregnancy have babies that sleep through the night earlier. Heck, my baby girl slept until 9 freakin' AM the other day.

Quackery, I tell you. :D

my kids love 2 mg of valium just before bed!
its one of the few things we have in common.

Steve Shafley
12-21-2009, 10:24 AM
Nice.

I had to lay on the bedroom floor by the crib until my daughter fell asleep. And then I would have to crawl out on my hands and knees so the floorboard wouldn't squeak.

That quote's from the P&B, where a brother was contemplating suicide due to not having sex or a full night's sleep in over a year.

Ganine Vanalst
12-21-2009, 10:46 AM
I'm just a godless heathen loudmouth who fancies herself a journalist. I ain't the smartest (paleo) cookie you're ever gonna meet, but I work the sh*t out of the few brain cells I have and I ask a lot of rather good questions.

I get really suspicious of people who won't answer a straight question- especially when it's posed in a pointed way. I noticed this really early on with the higher ups...

I never got along with girls in elementary school because I didn't do the game play well. "You're friends with them and they said something mean and you didn't defend me so all of my friends will be mean to you!" I'm good at recognizing that schoolyard tactic- and when this was used against one of the most giving and knowledgeable coaches I've ever had the chance to meet, I was on high alert.

I saw the groupthink and the coercive belief systems on that politics front page and I don't know of anyone or any collective that can be so rigid and closeminded in one part of his/her/its existence and be "open source" anywhere else.

But I took my tubby ass elsewhere and knew that the chickens would be home roosting soon enough.

Cluck cluck cluck.

Not to speak poorly of chickens.

Sounds like you saw it sooner than I did. I was telling a friend of mine this experience with CrossFit was unsettling in part because I realized I'm a bit more susceptible to being drawn into a cult then I thought. The desire to be a part of something meaningful (and to make a living through it as well) can be so strong it can blind you to some very obvious realities.

In reference to the schoolyard tactic. It is hard enough going through it yourself as a kid, but as a parent it is excruciating to watch it happen to your own kid. I am very happy that part of parenting is well behind me.

I can understand what James Evans above is saying in reference to Gary John and his brother (although I don't know any of the particulars of the situation); it can be much harder to watch a child/sibling or other person you care about being mistreated than it is to take the mistreatment yourself.

my kids love 2 mg of valium just before bed!
its one of the few things we have in common.

I nominate you for father of the year! If you run out of valium, a bit of whiskey in the bottle works wonders as well (if you have the will power to spare any).

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-21-2009, 10:50 AM
Mike,

You should common to Meatfest this year. It's hosted by Jay Cohen and me. Good food, throws, sprints and heavy lifts and good beer.

Gant Grimes
12-21-2009, 11:18 AM
I can understand what James Evans above is saying in reference to Gary John and his brother (although I don't know any of the particulars of the situation); it can be much harder to watch a child/sibling or other person you care about being mistreated than it is to take the mistreatment yourself.

Ganine, search a couple years ago (whenever the movie '300'--the greatest CF marketing tool in history--came out). Then search for Couch, Mark Twight, and Dan John. Knowing what you do now, it will come as no surprise.

All that came down right as I was handed my first cup of kool-aid, and it's what caused me to say no-thanks to the bigger operation. It was pretty clear that two of the players were legitimate athletes and coaches and that the other one was...a little less classy. The whole thing was unnecessarily ugly and uncalled for.

I don't follow Twight's programming, but there are two things I love about the guy, that he is willing to experiment on himself and that he commits 100% to a program.

As for Dan John, he is as solid as they get with regard to knowledge, training, and actually having accomplished something. He responds personally to questions, no matter how stupid they are, and I have yet to see him act unprofessionally, even when he is entitled to do so.

Still pisses me off.

Jonathan Yoon
12-21-2009, 11:28 AM
Ganine, search a couple years ago (whenever the movie '300'--the greatest CF marketing tool in history--came out). Then search for Couch, Mark Twight, and Dan John. Knowing what you do now, it will come as no surprise.

An easy shortcut to the info is to check out the in-depth article on Mark Twight and Gym Jones in Outside Magazine.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200811/hell-on-earth-fitness-plan-1.html

Craig Brown
12-21-2009, 12:54 PM
Dan is rock solid, as is Mark. The humor in the whole thing is that BOTH of them are or have been actual elite athletes.

Both are great guys, no question, and work what they teach themselves.

Craig

Ganine Vanalst
12-21-2009, 01:06 PM
NOTE: I edited out the screen shot I originally posted because I was uncertain about copyright infringement where these things are concerned so wanted to err on the side of caution.

Just to throw one more thing out there for those who might still question the use of peer pressure, coercion, and veiled threats. Below is a quote from the affiliate blog on May 5, 2009 that refers to the RRG and a picture that was posted:

"Without it, we are all like the young lady in the photo above; a bit out of synch with her peers and about to draw some unwanted attention and correction."

Maybe you can argue that what was meant is that "unwanted attention and correction" is going to come in the form of being singled out and targeted for a lawsuit by people outside CrossFit, but I don't think that was the intent. And if it was the intent it could have been stated a lot more clearly and with less ambiguity as to the meaning. Look at the tone of the sentence as a whole with the reference to being out of synch with "peers" immediately followed by language suggesting that the ramification for being so will get you "unwanted attention and correction." In particular the word "correction" is very telling.

Jamila, going back to the schoolyard tactics thing, bullies piss me off, and that's my motivation with my posts instead of just moving on. I can forgive a lot, no one is perfect and we all make mistakes, but I don't like bullies. So, Gant, I understand why you're still pissed.

Oh, thanks for the link, Jonathan!

Steve Romer
12-21-2009, 01:07 PM
+1 to keeping it real, sticking to the facts, no personal attacks, less ranting, more moving forward and past the old crap, and much love with Guinness and UFOs.

when in doubt....just remember the motto:
http://www.dmbosstone.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/stay_classy.jpg

Now back to planning the BeerFit Games....which will involve feats of strength much like Festivus and of course....das boot!

I too would like to move on but Glassman keeps attacking Robb. And I feel I need to cover his back because of all the help he has given me.

I posted this Robb's site:

I believe Melissa Urban is a Student of yours and she is the one who taught me the benefits of the Paleo Diet. The following is what I wrote at her place.
” Steve said…

I am away from home and will not return until my 30 Day Challenge is over on this Tuesday. But it is no longer a challenge rather it is a way of life for me now. So my first chance for a legal cheat is this Tuesday and I am not really looking forward to cheating this Tuesday. Nothing is special about Tuesday just another day in my life. In fact the first day I see a reason to cheat is not until the following Saturday when I go to a social event. My cheat will be some wine. I mean some really good wine. I meant to say some great wine.

I have no desire to eat beard, rice, potatoes, candy or any other junk food. This lifestyle is allowing me to lose inches off my waist without going hungry. This lifestyle is saving my life. For about 25 years I have been getting fatter and fatter. I joined weight watchers and I was able to starve myself down 40 pounds, but the weight slowly came back. Before I found the 30 day challenge my weight peaked to 305.

I stood looking at the scale in disbelief. How I did I allow myself to reach 305? I tried eating less but I didn’t lose a pound until I got a really bad stomach virus that didn’t allow me to eat for three weeks and my weight during this illness dropped to 285. I thought to myself this is the jump start I needed to get my weight under control, but three weeks later in spite of starving myself I was back up to 292 and rising. So I brought a subscription to the CF Journal and started to read the nutrition articles. One of the articles I read was Melissa Byers article “Zone Gone Bad”. I thought to myself here is interesting person.

Then I searched the CF boards and I found out Melissa had her own blog and I decided to check out her blog. At the top of her blog as everyone reading this knows is a linked called “Change your life in 30 Days.” I knew I needed to change my life in order to save my life. With the direction of my weight I had serious doubts that would live another ten years. I am only 50 and I doubted I would make to sixty or live long enough to see my Grandchildren or see my son get married. So I took the challenge and it saved my life. At my last weighing I was down to 279. To many that may sound awful to weight 279, but I haven’t been that light for over five years. I am down to 279 without being hungry. Each day I feel better, have more energy and become leaner. Why would I want to trade that for potatoes, corn, pasta or any the other junk I used to believe was healthy food?

Melissa Byers and her “30 Day Challenge” not only changed my life, it saved my life. I was on a path to an early death and now I am going live long enough to see my son get married and to see my Grandchildren. I can’t thank Melissa enough for saving my life.
So I will end this long post by just saying Thank You Melissa for saving my life and I really do mean it when I say “Saving.”
September 12, 2009 4:45 PM ”

Without you Robb there would not have been a Melissa to save me and I am now down 46 pounds and counting. I was dying until I was saved by Paleo. So guess who side I am on; “the max profit side or the side which gives out life saving information for free?”

Robb's advice saved my life, so I cannot just stand on the side lines while Glassman lies and smears him.

Ganine Vanalst
12-21-2009, 01:13 PM
I too would like to move on but Glassman keeps attacking Robb. And I feel I need to cover his back because of all the help he has given me.

I posted this Robb's site:



Robb's advice saved my life, so I cannot just stand on the side lines while Glassman lies and smears him.

Congratulations, Steve! Enjoy your glass of wine!

Mike ODonnell
12-21-2009, 02:14 PM
I too would like to move on but Glassman keeps attacking Robb. And I feel I need to cover his back because of all the help he has given me.

Honestly are the majority of the CF community really buying into the attacks on persons anymore? Who finds that professional and positive? With each attack...more and more people will just walk away. Robb is moving on with his book, that is all the positive support he needs. (that and there will always be IGX for the people who really want to vent...most of ours secret little online reading indulgence)

Ironically more attacks on him will just get more people interested in what he has to say, and therefore probably drive more book/seminar sales. If I were him I would send you know who an autographed copy and thank him for his support. :)

BTW congrats on your progress Steve, that is awesome!

Blair Lowe
12-21-2009, 03:23 PM
Previously before the BBS, I had taken a dismal stance on MT because of everything I could find on CF.

Now, I'm having to rethink everything regarding him. I still don't like the GymJones website much, but more than likely I was false in my beliefs against him.

This really pisses me off because more than likely I feel wrongfully informed against MT by CF/Glassman.

Allen Yeh
12-21-2009, 05:52 PM
I don't follow Twight's programming, but there are two things I love about the guy, that he is willing to experiment on himself and that he commits 100% to a program.

As for Dan John, he is as solid as they get with regard to knowledge, training, and actually having accomplished something. He responds personally to questions, no matter how stupid they are, and I have yet to see him act unprofessionally, even when he is entitled to do so.

Still pisses me off.

Yep. DJ is first rate and an all-around class act, I had the pleasure to meet him a few years ago and he will still entertain the occasional "stupid question" email from me.

Only interacted with Mark T. once when he was still a mod at the CF forums (I wonder how many people know that little tidbit) and the experience was less than delightful. However that being said my personal feelings for him didn't have me buy into this whole Gym Jones versus CF thing that people were trying to sell. Ridiculous.

Jamila Bey
12-21-2009, 07:53 PM
Thanks to my buddy for apprising me of the study where they found mothers who take enough fish oil during pregnancy have babies that sleep through the night earlier. Heck, my baby girl slept until 9 freakin' AM the other day. Quackery, I tell you. :D

I took 1.5g of fish oil a day for my whole pregnancy (once I found out at about 5 weeks). Carlin sleeps through the night and pretty much has since we brought him home. Thing is- he naps twice a day for 20 minutes each time! And the kid is go go go from the time he's up at 0800 until he goes down at 21-2200. Our pedi says he is just fine and since we're really doing a lot to keep him down, that's all the sleeping of him we should expect. My mom says that was MY sleep/nap pattern too...

We're evil co-sleepers- and good thing too- the kid's Amby baby hammock bed was just recalled! Carlin has a crib that we put him in when we want to have child-free evening time, but he wakes in the night wanting to nurse. He's nearly 19 months.

We use a cloth diaper service, but I'm addicted to wool pants and shorts... don't tell hubby but someone spent $65 on one pair of pants for the baby. But shipping was free!

WHO AM I?

Jamila Bey
12-21-2009, 08:15 PM
I was telling a friend of mine this experience with CrossFit was unsettling in part because I realized I'm a bit more susceptible to being drawn into a cult then I thought. The desire to be a part of something meaningful (and to make a living through it as well) can be so strong it can blind you to some very obvious realities.


And Ganine, welcome to the realization! I gave away quite a bit of my time and expertise to CF FOR FREE as a writer/producer with CrossFit Live some years back. Radio production/writing/reporting is how I make my living, and my gratis service to CF caused some distress in my new marriage at the time. And rightfully so. Hubby said I was being taken advantage of. I thought he was mistaken and way out of line to get between me and my greater mission of service to CF... I believed I'd be "taken care of."

As a lifelong outcast and outsider, I'm really sensitive to the ways of exclusion and I can see them a mile away... We all know the stories... As people started being excommunicated one by one and there were public displays of "X got too big for his britches," I gotta be honest, I was back on the playground as an 8 year old again.

I'm not calling names, I'm just asking the question, who gains cult followings? At least nobody died or got driven into literal war before the cracks in the foundation began to show.

I feel for the folks with businesses tied up in CF. I can only imagine what you are dealing with!

Jason Tanner
12-21-2009, 08:41 PM
I've only been aware of recent events today but I would like to note several laws of physics, mainly the 2nd law of thermodynamics, Godel's Theorem, Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and Plancks Constant. Each of these laws combined equate to when a closed system stays closed eventually disorder, chaos, and ultimately becoming paralyzed will ensue.* Interesting.....


*Theory by John Boyd in his paper: The OODA Loop

James Evans
12-22-2009, 02:17 AM
I don't follow Twight's programming, but there are two things I love about the guy, that he is willing to experiment on himself and that he commits 100% to a program.

I'm always amused when people say that they do follow Twight's programming or that they DO Gym Jones.

Really? How?

http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=43

Not really a surprise Rob Shaul was opening a few people's eyes with an actual day to day programme. Until he decided to charge and people decided he was a hustler.

Steve Shafley
12-22-2009, 05:31 AM
It's a proximity bias, I know, but it still makes me snicker when people throw up some random, or not so random shit, as a workout, then then other people think that it's got some deeper, dedicated purpose behind it. Educate yourself on the principles being training and then you can look behind the curtain.

I look at the XF WOD and yawn. Great at making people tired, supposedly good for work capacity.

Then I look at the stuff GJ puts out. Only slightly more focused on the needs of whatever particular athlete is doing it. It's great for Athlete X, who's manager at JC Penney by day and a skilled BJJ competitor at night, but it's not appropriate for you.

Mtnathlete is the same way, but he's constrained even more by the types of clients he works with, and his general structure is based around his clientele. I find a lot of the stuff he does a bit silly.

I get ideas, sometimes good ones, but I'm not overall impressed, because it's still guessing.

The CA OL programming is the closest thing you're going to see online that is actual focused programming for a specific goal. There are specific patterns of loading and unloading that elicit the best exercise response from most individuals.

The average trainee isn't going to get stronger, faster, or bigger at random, although the vague category of "work capacity" can be improved.

Wade Smith
12-22-2009, 05:58 AM
Add me to the growing list of those unhappy that CrossFit has jumped the shark.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q168/sisario/misc%20used%20blog%20pix/Fonzie_jumps_the_shark.jpg

James Evans
12-22-2009, 06:03 AM
Mtnathlete is the same way, but he's constrained even more by the types of clients he works with, and his general structure is based around his clientele. I find a lot of the stuff he does a bit silly.

I get ideas, sometimes good ones, but I'm not overall impressed, because it's still guessing.

I like Rob's stuff. I like that he places considerable importance on strength. I think you said the following:

Rob Shaul does not fear the bench press. Which is fucking refreshing.*

I've found it interesting how his programmes have evolved. I can't take the indoor ski training particularly seriously but then I'm not a skier. Think he may be underestimating the value of the C2. But surely he is trying to find out what works? I guess I just enjoy watching the process.


*I'm quoting Shaf, don't get upset Donald.

James Evans
12-22-2009, 06:04 AM
Only interacted with Mark T. once when he was still a mod at the CF forums (I wonder how many people know that little tidbit)

Yes, this is funny:

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=341

Steve Shafley
12-22-2009, 06:29 AM
Shaul is a student. I'm sure his programming changes over time, like anyone's might.

The sport-specific stuff you mentioned, is the stuff I mind silly. Sports are sport-specific.

Doing squats in your ski boots? Silly (this is just an example, I don't know if Shaul's ever done that with his clients).

I will admit this, I will tend to push against stuff that everyone is admiring and crowing about because I'm contrary by nature. A big surprise to everyone, I'm sure.

James Evans
12-22-2009, 06:35 AM
Shaul is a student. I'm sure his programming changes over time, like anyone's might.

The sport-specific stuff you mentioned, is the stuff I mind silly. Sports are sport-specific.

Doing squats in your ski boots? Silly (this is just an example, I don't know if Shaul's ever done that with his clients).

I think they've done jump squats and lateral jumps in ski boots.

I've seen mountain bikers advocating jump squats while holding onto their bikes. I thought that was silly.

The student element is key - as I said, I enjoy watching it evolve. He also pays full dues to everyone that has influenced him.

Steve Shafley
12-22-2009, 06:40 AM
Very true. In the wacky little industry that is 'microgyms', so few people do give credit where credit is due.

Jonathan Yoon
12-22-2009, 07:25 AM
Shaul is a good cat. Always willing to listen and learn from everyone and pick out the best stuff that works for him and his athletes. Although I wish his site didn't turn fee-based, but he's gotta get money somehow.

Justin Arnold
12-22-2009, 07:38 AM
And he would, through paying clientele.

Mike ODonnell
12-22-2009, 08:45 AM
We all have to make money somehow

Steve Shafley
12-22-2009, 08:57 AM
I keep wondering if Castro will be charged with anything for his actions at the Black Box Summit.

There's significant law on the books about hostile workplaces, and his actions certainly crossed into their jurisdiction that weekend, since he was there as a representative of the XF corporate entity.

At the very least, using physical "crowd control" methods to maneuver someone somewhere would also be considered an assault in most cases.

peace warson
12-22-2009, 09:30 AM
rw/ge/someone waiting until their ducks are in a row? don't see how you could do what dc did and get away scot free..

Jay Cohen
12-22-2009, 09:45 AM
The Couch Tread over at Irongarmx is a friggin howl.

http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5075&start=13525

Gant Grimes
12-22-2009, 01:20 PM
I'm always amused when people say that they do follow Twight's programming or that they DO Gym Jones.

Really? How?

http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=43

Why are you amused? I think a number of people have the sense to understand that the postings don't represent consecutive day programming for the same athlete. I also think plenty of people have read and understand that article.

It's a simple matter to look the blog over and piece together programs for various types of athletes. I've done this, and I don't subscribe to his theories. The endurance folks he has do well with the stuff, but it doesn't translate well for GPP programming or power-based athletes.

Then again, people still do that dumb ass "300 workout," so you may have a point.

Chris Klein
12-23-2009, 06:10 AM
The Couch Tread over at Irongarmx is a friggin howl.

http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5075&start=13525


Thanks for posting the link - I've been enjoying that thread for the past hour!

Derek Weaver
12-23-2009, 06:24 AM
I have lurked over at igx for a few years now, bit that thread has gone to the next level. I couldn't tell you the last time I laughed so hard at something on the interweb

Jonathan Yoon
12-23-2009, 06:36 AM
The endurance folks he has do well with the stuff, but it doesn't translate well for GPP programming or power-based athletes.

You know, I don't think that Mark Twight ever said that his stuff was aimed towards GPP programming. As for power-based athletes, what are we talking about? Olympic Lifting? Powerlifting? Strongman? Football?

Derek Weaver
12-23-2009, 07:09 AM
I know Twight had an MMA guy training with him. Fought in the UFC a couple times and was a Ring of Fire (or some other regional promotion) champ. But yeah, I'd agree his stuff wouldn't translate as well as Chaimberg (so?) or Dewey Nielsen's stuff.

Gant Grimes
12-23-2009, 08:48 AM
You know, I don't think that Mark Twight ever said that his stuff was aimed towards GPP programming. As for power-based athletes, what are we talking about? Olympic Lifting? Powerlifting? Strongman? Football?

This is true for the most part. And, to be clear, I have nothing against MT. I think he's an excellent trainer, writer, and coach.

Tom T Nguyen
12-23-2009, 09:28 AM
I'm curious why everyone thinks it's going to be different this time around. The slandering and character assasination has happened before and Glassman and CF thrived in the 2-3 years since the whole Mark Twight/Dan John episodes.

It would seem that they are more immune to any possible ill-effects this time around as most people involved with Crossfit are now involved at the local affiliate level rather than the .com/online level. Many (most?) of those people have no idea about the BBS incident or subsequent "statements" made by Glassman.

Unfortunately, I doubt much will change with CF or Glassman as result of all of this.

peace warson
12-23-2009, 10:58 AM
agreed, that igx thread is freaking hilarious. lots of vulgar language and pics, but it's a lot of fun.
nothing's going to happen to cf, other than making tons more cash. oh and they'll continue to dominate other athletes in the random nonsense modal domain.

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-23-2009, 12:26 PM
That banner from the games was complete and utter bullshit. It's a GPP program and a pretty good one. But it will not turn you into a superstar at least not on it's own.

That and 700-750 deadlift piss me all kinds of off.

Gant's right though. Unlike what happens over at IGX, I thnk the hate should be reserved for the assholes, not the followers. Unless of course the follower is an abz obsessed narcissistic metro sexual who is a dedicated kool aid drinker. In that case, give them both barrels.

Most CFers just want to be in better shape, stronger, fitter, etc. They found a program that works for them.

Wait until next month, the board will be filled with new years resolution assholes. God they piss me off.

Kevin Perry
12-23-2009, 12:43 PM
That banner from the games was complete and utter bullshit. It's a GPP program and a pretty good one. But it will not turn you into a superstar at least not on it's own.

That and 700-750 deadlift piss me all kinds of off.

Gant's right though. Unlike what happens over at IGX, I thnk the hate should be reserved for the assholes, not the followers. Unless of course the follower is an abz obsessed narcissistic metro sexual who is a dedicated kool aid drinker. In that case, give them both barrels.

Most CFers just want to be in better shape, stronger, fitter, etc. They found a program that works for them.

Wait until next month, the board will be filled with new years resolution assholes. God they piss me off.

but what about all the people who post 500 pound squat and 600 pound feats in the main page comments? Surely they are elite athletes created by the incredible sophisticated Program developed by the only gin master himself couch. known as @fit. Wait... That doesn't make sense. Oh snap... Gin attack

Jay Cohen
12-23-2009, 01:11 PM
Wait until next month, the board will be filled with new years resolution assholes. God they piss me off.

Jamie, come on bud, you like responding to those newbs. It's the sos day in, day out. You really should consider moving on.

There are some real quality boards out there, PM being one, Rips being another, Elite Fitness is interesting, but CF, strictly low grade anal stuff.

MeatFest is going to lean more to PM/Strongman/misc stuff as opposed to CF WODS.

Garrett Smith
12-23-2009, 01:51 PM
MeatFest is going to lean more to PM/Strongman/misc stuff as opposed to CF WODS.

That's what I'm talkin' about!!! :D

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-23-2009, 02:01 PM
Kevin,

I don;t read the comments on the mainpage, so I'm guessing thats sarcasm. I've never met a CF with a 600+ deadlift.

Jay,

I read Pmenu and StartingStrength, but I don't post much over hear, mainly for the reasons you suggest I move on. I don't think I have much to add over here yet, but I'm learning alot. This is by far one of the better places I've been to.

I still post over at CF because I like making jokes and to try to keep the newbies on course. I'd hate to see a promising athlete start over at CF and then decide to become worried about his abz, bf% and if he looks good in his affiliates video than the weight on the bar or his form.

I didn't get in the FBI this time, so I will be around for the meatfest. Anton and I will be working on the events.

peace warson
12-23-2009, 02:54 PM
happy for the cf grunts that found something that works for them. but the "elite" and "dominate other athletes" stuff? comedy.

Tom Rawls
12-23-2009, 08:00 PM
I still post over at CF because I like making jokes and to try to keep the newbies on course. I'd hate to see a promising athlete start over at CF and then decide to become worried about his abz, bf% and if he looks good in his affiliates video than the weight on the bar or his form.

That sounds paternalistic and grandiose.

And I am not aware of athletes--individuals who compete in recognized sports--who do x-fit.

Jay Cohen
12-24-2009, 05:03 AM
That sounds paternalistic and grandiose.

And I am not aware of athletes--individuals who compete in recognized sports--who do x-fit.

^^^^^ and there you have it.

Jamie, let's talk near future, we need to nail a date and theme, and I don't trust you and Anton(does he have his Green Card yet), as you'll design events that are tooooo friggin weird, dangerous and whacked out, wait, that's XF and we are definitely distancing ourselves from XF and there will no Kool Aid, but rather good beer, Tequila and what ever else anyone wants to bring.

George Mounce
12-24-2009, 06:55 AM
That banner from the games was complete and utter bullshit. It's a GPP program and a pretty good one. But it will not turn you into a superstar at least not on it's own.

That and 700-750 deadlift piss me all kinds of off.

Gant's right though. Unlike what happens over at IGX, I thnk the hate should be reserved for the assholes, not the followers. Unless of course the follower is an abz obsessed narcissistic metro sexual who is a dedicated kool aid drinker. In that case, give them both barrels.

Most CFers just want to be in better shape, stronger, fitter, etc. They found a program that works for them.

Wait until next month, the board will be filled with new years resolution assholes. God they piss me off.

Next month the board will be filled with more injuries from doing CrossFit after a large layoff of not working out and binging on sugar. :D

George Mounce
12-24-2009, 06:58 AM
That sounds paternalistic and grandiose.

And I am not aware of athletes--individuals who compete in recognized sports--who do x-fit.

True statement. Athletes in sports train to be better at their sport. XF is bad for them, as paid people getting hurt puts them in a bind as they could lose their job.

After 10 years of being a pilot now, I can tell you I don't do anything that could damage my eyes, ears, hands, and feet. While yes, I did XF for almost 2 years, I did not ever, ever, ever give into bad form. I knew that was asking for trouble.

These idiots who are hurting themselves use the intensity mantra nonsense to put themselves into a painful place that seems to tell me - how really functional is pain and injury? Hurt people can't run away from danger, nor fight it.

Wayne Riddle
12-24-2009, 08:30 AM
After 10 years of being a pilot now, I can tell you I don't do anything that could damage my eyes, ears, hands, and feet. While yes, I did XF for almost 2 years, I did not ever, ever, ever give into bad form. I knew that was asking for trouble.

That is one thing that gets me over on the cf boards at times, time over technique/proper form. Nothing wrong with going for time, but I won't do it at the expense of correct technique. Like you i want to be stay functional.

peace warson
12-24-2009, 09:24 AM
but injuries are a modal domain, so they're actually top-class functional!

Gant Grimes
12-24-2009, 09:25 AM
These idiots who are hurting themselves use the intensity mantra nonsense to put themselves into a painful place that seems to tell me - how really functional is pain and injury? Hurt people can't run away from danger, nor fight it.

Not everybody can be strong, fast, and athletic. But anyone can tear up their hands and puke in the parking lot, which is their perception of the "blood, sweat, and tears" of real sport.

It's sad because some of these people just want to improve themselves and have no clue that injury isn't necessary.

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-24-2009, 10:14 AM
Jay,

He doesn't yet. Actually, Anton is much more calm than me, he would just have max snatch, C&J, squat, bench, dead, press. I think sandbags, kbs and sled again though different events. I really like sandbag shoulders. I'm also thinking some basic tumbling; forward rolls and such.

I hung out with Dan Thompson last night, he said he was sorry for not getting back to you, but he's been super busy.

Donald Lee
12-24-2009, 01:27 PM
Is it sad that I had a dream that I was banned from the CrossFit Boards?

Steve Romer
12-24-2009, 01:32 PM
Is it sad that I had a dream that I was banned from the CrossFit Boards?

Are you sure it was a dream?

peace warson
12-24-2009, 01:33 PM
it's sad if you were sad about it.

Steve Romer
12-24-2009, 01:39 PM
Congratulations, Steve! Enjoy your glass of wine!

Honestly are the majority of the CF community really buying into the attacks on persons anymore? Who finds that professional and positive? With each attack...more and more people will just walk away. Robb is moving on with his book, that is all the positive support he needs. (that and there will always be IGX for the people who really want to vent...most of ours secret little online reading indulgence)

Ironically more attacks on him will just get more people interested in what he has to say, and therefore probably drive more book/seminar sales. If I were him I would send you know who an autographed copy and thank him for his support. :)

BTW congrats on your progress Steve, that is awesome!

Ganine and Mike Thanks for your support and I am down 50 pounds as of today using the Paleo Diet w/o WAM. But what does Robb know?

Jay Ashman
12-24-2009, 02:28 PM
Jay,

He doesn't yet. Actually, Anton is much more calm than me, he would just have max snatch, C&J, squat, bench, dead, press. I think sandbags, kbs and sled again though different events. I really like sandbag shoulders. I'm also thinking some basic tumbling; forward rolls and such.

I hung out with Dan Thompson last night, he said he was sorry for not getting back to you, but he's been super busy.

Jamie, when is that Meatfest, that sounds like a hell of a good time.

Tom Rawls
12-24-2009, 02:30 PM
Is it sad that I had a dream that I was banned from the CrossFit Boards?

It is sad that you dream about x-fit

Aaron Austin
12-24-2009, 02:36 PM
It is sad that you dream about x-fit

It is sad if you dream about anything other than driving a Lamborghini with Allison Stokke feeding you bacon from the passenger seat.

peace warson
12-24-2009, 05:55 PM
info from someone who knows, via igx:

Any discussion about Crossfit should probably begin with deciding what exactly Crossfit is. It uses a lot of concepts like circuit training, interval training, calisthenics, Olympic lifting etc. yet none of these are unique to Crossfit. Just using these activities in your training doesn’t automatically mean you are doing Crossfit, though Crossfit has claimed some prominent athletes are “Crossfitters” because they do some of the things that Crossfitters also do, even if those athletes spend most of their time doing endurance training for sports like triathlon or rowing. On the other hand, I’ve met people who describe themselves as “Crossfitters” even though what they do doesn’t really seem to match what I’ve seen on the Crossfit web page. So when I talk about “Crossfit”, understand that I’m talking specifically about the training described at Crossfit.com and their “Workouts of the Day”, which may be different from what you think of as Crossfit or what you might be doing if you work out at one of their affiliate gyms doing affiliate programming.

Recognize also that my comments about Crossfit are directed towards guys preparing for BUD/S, and the SEAL & SWCC communities, not people in the general public with different needs or interests. I don’t recommend Crossfit as prep for BUD/S, although it does have some merits. Intensity is the single most important factor related to adaptation, but intensity must be used properly. Variety is good, but variety must be balanced with consistency. A willingness to push the envelope and think outside the box is also good, but within reason. I have several criticisms which I will explain directly. Also, Crossfit promotes ideas on nutrition (Zone diet) which directly contradict sports science research on performance, and ideas about running (POSE technique) that have not been validated by empirical research and should be approached cautiously. Here are links to some of my previous comments on these topics:

http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=30#post-78
http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=87
http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=106
http://sealswcc.com/blog/index.php/archives/10

One of my criticisms of Crossfit for BUD/S candidates is a lack of specificity, and while they say up front their program is about general fitness and that they specialize in NOT specializing, that is not the right approach for BUD/S. BUD/S is an event with known physical demands, and these should be addressed with a program specifically designed for BUD/S. The random nature of Crossfit programming will not adequately address the major events in BUD/S or mentally prepare you for its hardships. The idea that performing randomly selected activities or modes of exercise will somehow condition you for Hell Week is at best naive. The concept of Mental Toughness and what defines the successful BUD/S student has been thoroughly studied by some very smart people at NSW. Mental Toughness is taught to BUD/S students, and it has nothing to do with the random challenges approach.

Other criticisms of Crossfit include:
• Illogical combinations of exercises (such as pre-fatiguing exercises before heavy dead lifts)
• Prescribing the same workouts (including the same weight) for everybody regardless of personal history of training or injury
• Arbitrary goals (such as using 50 or 100 reps for multiple exercises)
• Prescription of exercises that require specialized skills and baseline conditioning and are not appropriate for beginners under high-intensity conditions (Olympic lifts, kettle bells)
• Use of exercises of questionable safety if done rapidly or while fatigued (glute-ham sit-ups, muscle ups, Turkish get-ups)
• Exclusion of useful exercises (such as leg curls or biceps curls) as being “nonfunctional”
• Formats that reward poor technique, such as shortening the ROM to get more reps in less time (despite the lip service Crossfit gives to technique, it is rarely observed in practice)
• Too many formats that blend strength and endurance activities such that the effectiveness of both are diluted (better to perform strength and endurance activities independently most of the time)

Some of the key physiological adaptations necessary for BUD/S not adequately addressed by the Crossfit methodology include endurance, eccentric conditioning, and strengthening in multiple planes. Eccentric conditioning means properly emphasizing the negative (downward) portion of movements, which is necessary for developing resistance to injury as well as the ability to control heavy weights (such as logs and boats), and is not addressed by high-speed reps or by lifting weights up and then dropping them. Strength in multiple planes requires movements that utilize hip abduction, trunk rotation, and shoulder internal/external rotation.

Crossfit has been criticized for risk of injury, a legitimate concern for any conditioning program, certainly not only for Crossfit. Preparing for BUD/S (or to deploy as a SEAL) is serious business and requires serious training. It is unrealistic to expect training to be injury-free. But the benefits of training should always outweigh the potential risks. Preparation for BUD/S should leave you strong and healthy and free of damage, not carrying the baggage of any training-induced injuries or complaints that may pop up again under the heavy demands of BUD/S. For a SEAL, statistics show he is more likely to be injured while in the gym or doing recreational activities than doing anything else related to the job (including completing a mission). It is appropriate and obligatory to scrutinize a training program for the potential to cause injury. In the past I spent years working with doctors, athletic trainers, and physical therapists who treat Division I and Olympic athletes in many sports, and now I work with the medical personnel who treat BUD/S students and SEALs, collaborating to develop conditioning routines that enhance and complement operational training, not hinder it. (Physical training refers to conditioning activities like running and weight lifting, while operational training refers to developing specific warrior skills like weapons, breaching, CQD, etc.) For example, there have been incidences of students or operators left unable to properly handle a weapon after tearing up their hands or tweaking their elbows or shoulders while doing some high-rep high-speed routine involving pull-ups, kettle bells and Olympic bars. Guys have also been treated for rhabdomyolysis following such routines. Such routines are also associated with the type of overuse repetitive stress injuries that can plague a guy for his entire career. As an aside, it is instructive to talk to SEALs in different age groups about their training history. Guys in their 20s still think they’re bullet proof and all that talk about injury just means you’re a wuss. Guys in their 30s are a little more cautious. Guys in their 40s and 50s are wishing they could go back and do things differently.

Another criticism of Crossfit is a lack of reliable evidence to support its effectiveness or safety. Despite frequent use of phrases such as “empirically driven” and “measurable, observable, repeatable”, there is no publicly available data concerning Crossfit. Anecdotal accounts and testimonials on the Crossfit web site aren’t acceptable because they are unverifiable and represent a self-selected sample. Perhaps someday comparisons of Crossfit WODs with other training programs will be conducted on matched sample groups (age, experience, initial fitness, etc.) by unbiased and independent researchers to determine the effects on measures of health and performance, and if those comparisons are favorable I will be glad to recommend Crossfit among the training options available to BUD/S candidates.

Regarding the statements made here:
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=42448&page=3
Crossfit is definitely NOT part of the official curriculum at BUD/S. Some BUD/S Instructors have been interested in Crossfit and have had their students perform PTs that are clearly influenced by or copied from Crossfit. For example, a recent class during the eight weeks of Second Phase did six PTs that included the following:
• 50 reps each of slam ball, wall ball, pull-ups, burpees, and box jumps
• Every minute, do 5 pull-ups, 10 push-ups, and 15 air squats (20 rounds)
• Do a round of pull-ups, knees to elbows, and dips for 10 reps, then 9 reps, then 8 reps and so on down to 1 rep (sprint over the berm after each round)
• 21 reps, then 15 reps, then 9 reps of push press (75lbs), box jumps, and wall ball
None of those workouts were timed, and students were able to keep good form while still maintaining intensity. There were no complex lifts or heavy weights for time. In addition to those half dozen PTs over eight weeks, students ran and swam dozens and dozens of miles (one evolution is a 5.5 nautical mile ocean swim which takes several hours to complete). Overall, that isn’t much like what Crossfit describes as its methodology and in fact sounds a lot like what they tell people not to do. There is certainly no basis for the statement that Crossfit has resulted in better performance and fewer injuries among BUD/S students. In fact, recent trends such as better PST scores, fewer performance failures/rolls/drops, fewer medical drops, and especially, more Hell Week successes – can all be attributed in part to the structured approach to training promoted in the Physical Training Guide and the NSW Prep Course. Among the SEAL Teams, the established training model is the Tactical Athlete Program (TAP), an evidence-based program developed in conjunction with research at the University of Pittsburgh’s Human Performance Laboratory and in collaboration with the National Strength and Conditioning Association. TAP provides training methods for developing strength, speed, and endurance to meet the needs of today’s SEAL. (It is true, some SEALs including BUD/S Instructors elect to pursue Crossfit or other training methods for their non-group PT, but those are individual choices.)

The web site NavySEALs.com is often mistaken for an official NSW page, but it is commercially owned and operated and the SEAL Fit program is not endorsed by NSW. There are many people participating on their training forum who have been to BUD/S and even some former or current SEALs, so you can get some first-hand information there, though sometimes it may be a little out of date. Also, NavySEALs.com is affiliated with Crossfit, and some of the people who post are there to promote Crossfit. As for Crossfit Endurance, I don’t recommend it for BUD/S candidates. (Again, I am not commenting on its value for the general public.) For my recommendations regarding the most effective use of interval and LSD training, see the Physical Training Guide as well as my recent Training Blogs on SEALSWCC.com: http://www.sealswcc.com/blog/

I will be criticized by Crossfit for not “understanding” the program or for not having given it a proper chance. I’ve sat in on a couple Certifications, I’ve followed the web site for the past couple years and read many documents found there, I’ve interacted with many people active in the Crossfit community, I’ve observed plenty of people doing Crossfit workouts, and over the years I’ve experimented with many of the techniques found in their programming. So I “get” Crossfit, I just don’t endorse it. I actually prefer to avoid giving negative advice (telling people what NOT to do), and would rather tell them what characterizes good training and let them decide for themselves if something like Crossfit satisfies those requirements. When preparing for BUD/S I strongly encourage a structured, methodical, organized approach. The key to effective training is to identify the necessary adaptations and to systematically and progressively work towards developing them. Remember that the nature of training means it will not always be fun or glamorous or exciting, but you have to be willing to do what needs to be done. As for other points of view, I support the right of any fitness program to promote itself and pursue customers, but I also encourage the public to educate themselves and make informed choices from the many options available. From where I stand, I wouldn’t care if BUD/S candidates trained by following Crossfit, Gym Jones, P90x, Zumba, or Sweatin’ to the Oldies as long as it prepared them for what lies ahead. I put out the best information I can and make recommendations I hope you will follow, but ultimately it’s your life and your responsibility.

Mike Caviston
Director of Fitness, NSWCEN

http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=150

George Mounce
12-24-2009, 07:06 PM
I just copied that and I'm going to post it in our AF gym.

Especially the part about:

It is appropriate and obligatory to scrutinize a training program for the potential to cause injury.

Jay Ashman
12-24-2009, 07:16 PM
George, it isn't the program that causes injury, its the irresponsible handling of it by coaches, trainers and clients/athletes that cause it.

I've seen numerous injuries involved in strongman training (I can attest to that personally), powerlifting, sports training and many others.

It would be akin to blaming guns for violence.

There are some workouts on the mainpage of CF that no novice should attempt at all, but if they are under the eye of a trainer, the trainer should know better and know how to adapt the workout to fit the needs and the limitations of the client.

Any fitness program can be harmful if not done responsibly, but unfortunately people usually ignore common sense when they are trying to get better...

George Mounce
12-24-2009, 07:23 PM
George, it isn't the program that causes injury, its the irresponsible handling of it by coaches, trainers and clients/athletes that cause it.

I've seen numerous injuries involved in strongman training (I can attest to that personally), powerlifting, sports training and many others.

It would be akin to blaming guns for violence.

There are some workouts on the mainpage of CF that no novice should attempt at all, but if they are under the eye of a trainer, the trainer should know better and know how to adapt the workout to fit the needs and the limitations of the client.

Any fitness program can be harmful if not done responsibly, but unfortunately people usually ignore common sense when they are trying to get better...

Jay, would you ever tell someone to do Turkish Get-Ups for time on the main page of your website, knowing that people would do it? (Albeit very stupid people?)

You've seen numerous injuries by people testing themselves way beyond the limits of what you and I will ever achieve? I highly doubt it. You've seen people being stupid and getting hurt in a normal training program by not following protocols. These people didn't get told by a bunch of lamebrains with a 2 day cert to go do something so ridiculously stupid that it may potentially kill them.

Stop lacing your kool-aid. Intensity for intensity's sake isn't reason enough to do something. Training programs should help people to not only get stronger but maintain health, not destroy it.

Jay Ashman
12-24-2009, 07:31 PM
Jay, would you ever tell someone to do Turkish Get-Ups for time on the main page of your website, knowing that people would do it? (Albeit very stupid people?)you may have missed me posting about the TGU workout on the CF webboard...

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=709737&postcount=419

You've seen numerous injuries by people testing themselves way beyond the limits of what you and I will ever achieve? I highly doubt it. You've seen people being stupid and getting hurt in a normal training program by not following protocols. These people didn't get told by a bunch of lamebrains with a 2 day cert to go do something so ridiculously stupid that it may potentially kill them.
I've hurt myself strongman training, I've seen a few guys tear pecs doing powerlifting, I've seen blown out knees from doing drills for FB... numerous, maybe that is a big number, but I have seen them. I'm not here to blast CF, I am here to say that if someone is being stupid and careless (or a trainer for that matter) they will get hurt eventually.

Stop lacing your kool-aid. Intensity for intensity's sake isn't reason enough to do something. Training programs should help people to not only get stronger but maintain health, not destroy it.
and I agree with you 100%. Which is why programming needs to be smart and structured and not randomly assigned or haphazard. too many people do workouts for the sake of it without any real direction of what they want to accomplish.

Like I said, I like CF, I think its a good program overall, but..... you have to be smart about it and the programming in order to have a good result from it. You can't be a retard about it and program 100 jumping pullups and 100 GHD situps in a workout, that is begging for disaster.

If you look at the way I structure my workouts I have a definite goal in mind, that is to create stronger, faster, more explosive athletes. It is working so far, everyone that is following my workout programming has been getting better so far and I am happy for that. I don't program insanely high numbers of exercises nor do I program long runs followed by heavier lifting. Sure I do a lot of CF training but it is my interpretation.

With my personal clients it is a lot different, I have a few who are training for sports and my workouts for them involve a lot of traditional sport-specific drills instead of AMRAP's or CF workouts. And if I do a CF-style workout for them it is geared towards what they need for their sport and not just random.

Steve Shafley
12-24-2009, 07:47 PM
It isn't bad "coaching" though that's part of it.
It isn't bad "form" though that's part of it.
It isn't that they aren't ready for it, though that's part of it.

It's simply Crossfit itself.

The sheer number of casual reports of injuries on the XF.com injury forum doesn't even scratch the surface.

Jay Ashman
12-24-2009, 07:51 PM
It isn't bad "coaching" though that's part of it.
It isn't bad "form" though that's part of it.
It isn't that they aren't ready for it, though that's part of it.

It's simply Crossfit itself.

The sheer number of casual reports of injuries on the XF.com injury forum doesn't even scratch the surface.

how about the people that have success with it though, that is the bad side... there are always two sides to it. I'm playing devil's advocate here with this.

yes, the injury forum is filled with stuff, but that isn't the majority of people who follow it.

Garrett Smith
12-24-2009, 07:53 PM
Jay,
I'd say the problem with XF is laid out by Caviston in his post. XF is everything and nothing at the same time, which really means it is nothing.

You obviously don't do XF ("as Rx'd") with your trainees. Once in a while you do a metcon with them, which is hardly XF.

XF = giving a gun to a really dumb person with no training and no cautionary statements.

A situation with a gun, a dumb person (college kids, for example), and no proper knowledge or preparation (for example, a Level I "cert") will result in injury/death without any need for violent intent. This is the situation that XF creates.

You are an affiliate of XF, you obviously don't use mainpage WODs, your defense of the mothership has become wholly unnecessary. You shoot holes in your arguments every time you say you change the mainpage programming because it isn't suitable for all of your fitness clients...remember the whole "differs by degree, not kind" BS???

peace warson
12-24-2009, 07:59 PM
seems like success is going to come with hitting anything hard and staying with it, just like with dieting. but at any rate, like bill starr says in his latest article, something's better than nothing for the majority of fat assed slobs out there. just stop with the "dominating other athletes" nonsense.

and can't prove underreporting injuries, but..

Jay Ashman
12-24-2009, 08:00 PM
Jay,
I'd say the problem with XF is laid out by Caviston in his post. XF is everything and nothing at the same time, which really means it is nothing.

You obviously don't do XF ("as Rx'd") with your trainees. Once in a while you do a metcon with them, which is hardly XF.

XF = giving a gun to a really dumb person with no training and no cautionary statements.

A situation with a gun, a dumb person (college kids, for example), and no proper knowledge or preparation (for example, a Level I "cert") will result in injury/death without any need for violent intent. This is the situation that XF creates.

You are an affiliate of XF, you obviously don't use mainpage WODs, your defense of the mothership has become wholly unnecessary. You shoot holes in your arguments every time you say you change the mainpage programming because it isn't suitable for all of your fitness clients...remember the whole "differs by degree, not kind" BS???

well actually, I never use mainpage programming, so I can't say that I ever change it.

and I've said numerous times to many people over the course of my CF experience that a L1 doesn't make you a trainer, it just gives you basic skills. Programming, knowledge and intelligent training comes with education and experience.

And I am not defending the "mothership", I am defending those CF affiliates who program properly and use the right methods to do the best for their clients.

I'm hardly a follower, Garrett. I had a great experience at my L1 but it doesn't define my training knowledge whatsoever.

peace warson
12-24-2009, 08:22 PM
but holy crap, i do love me some jolie..

http://www.crossfitrevolution.com/.a/6a010534aeaaad970b01127943043f28a4-800wi

George Mounce
12-25-2009, 05:50 AM
This isn't IGX, we don't go around posting pictures here. :p

Martin Bonn
12-25-2009, 08:16 AM
Hi all,

wow, this is one hot thread! Here in the UK, CF isn't that big (yet) and I don't know a lot of the stuff that's been going on behind the scences.
I've used CF a bit (3xweek, aside form my other training) for a while, but I'm just doing Oly now (and MA when I have the time).

Here's my 0.02$ as they say:

1.) CF, when I first found it was better than anything I had done before (which was bodybuliding, which I wasn't very good at). I realise this doesn't mean anything.
2.) CF introduced me to Mark R and SS, which was the first time I made real progress!
3.) I also found Oly lifting through CF, which is my main sport now.
4.) CF certainly beats the machine based gyms that I was used to.

That's the +ve

1.)On the other hand I agree with a lot of things that have been said here before:
The way GE, RW, MR, DJ etc have been treated is disgraceful and I find it rather disturbing.
2.)I'd also like to see this data that CFHQ keeps talking about (it's the same with the zone): people keep on saying how 'studies' showed this and that....but I've never actually seen any of this.
3.) I'm really not happy with the superiority complex CF seems to have. Surely we are all grown up enough to appreciate what the other can bring to the discussion.
Being a Jack of all trades makes you a master of f*** all in my experience.
Doesn't mean you can't do a 'generalists' programme, but it doesn't give you the right to look down on everyone else! Or in fact speak with authority on every 'fitness' subject.
4.) Just a thought: There seems to be the notion that specialists are not rewarded, surly this is rubbish, every niche is occupied by specialists! To take a simple example: if I can run ok and I'm 'ok' at strength stuff, then that means I'm not gonna beat anyone at anything...and in the wild that would mean I couldn't run away from a predator of fight for my food...great!
I realise this is oversimplified, but I've heard this in the CF community and it's just rubbish.
5.) anyone can make a programme that makes people puke and exhausted, doesn't mean you've achieved anything.
Also don't we usually train with a 'submaximal' effort most of the time in order to improve (generally speaking)? Surly no-one can always go all out and expect to get better...
6.) On the whole form issue: I agree a lot of these movements need to be taught properly...and even then: a lot of them rely on good technique to be safe, and technique will suffer at maximal repeated efforts and when AMRAP are the goal and so they become unsafe again! Is it wise for people to attempt max DL after 30 reps of something else? I don't hink so! A CF might argue that you can't pick this in 'real world'....that is true, but shouldn't our training prepare us for such eventualities (if you are interested in this kinda stuff), so that we can pull it off when required? This doesn't mean I have to do it ALL the time in training! Rounded back training has its place, doens't mean I need to lift max loads like this 24/7.
We don't shoot life rounds at soldiers during training (all the time anyways) just because it's more life-like!

Rant over!

Steve Romer
12-25-2009, 08:54 AM
This isn't IGX, we don't go around posting pictures here. :p

Yep

Jay Ashman
12-25-2009, 09:03 AM
This isn't IGX, we don't go around posting pictures here. :p
yeppers

Andy Robinson
12-25-2009, 09:04 AM
Is it sad that I had a dream that I was banned from the CrossFit Boards?

just gay.

Gary John
12-25-2009, 09:09 AM
Give it a rest, its Christmas.

I remember having my R&R in Hong Kong so I wouldn't be in Viet Nam for Christmas.
41 years later, I still believe in a Christmas truce.

Jay Ashman
12-25-2009, 09:10 AM
seems like success is going to come with hitting anything hard and staying with it, just like with dieting. but at any rate, like bill starr says in his latest article, something's better than nothing for the majority of fat assed slobs out there. just stop with the "dominating other athletes" nonsense.

and can't prove underreporting injuries, but..yea the whole dominating other athletes thing is wrong...

once CF produces professional level talent in explosive sports (screw BJ Penn, he was a great fighter even before he ever touched CF, and I don't think Welbourn used CF when he was playing in the NFL) then they can say something like that.

And I don't count sports like skiiing, surfing, rock climbing or triathlons in the equation... I mean sports like football, baseball, hockey, soccer, rugby, etc..

CF is fitness, it doesn't necessarily translate to the field.

Jay Ashman
12-25-2009, 09:13 AM
Give it a rest, its Christmas.

I remember having my R&R in Hong Kong so I wouldn't be in Viet Nam for Christmas.
41 years later, I still believe in a Christmas truce.

Merry christmas to you and your family, Gary. Waiting on dinner is boring... but at least "A Christmas Story" is on nonstop to keep me company :D

peace warson
12-25-2009, 09:52 AM
merry xmas, mofos! and don't front, igx or not, jolie is bangin, son!
martin, good questions and observations..hopefully i'll observe spurs taking the points this festive season ;)
jay, that's what i'm saying. penn and welbourn "elite" before cf, and i'd bet that most, if not all other truly dominant cfitters were as well..going to be hard for cf to create an "elite" athlete in any sport because that'd mean specializing, and everyone knows they only specialize in not specializing..

peace warson
12-25-2009, 09:54 AM
..and to my pop, gary, and all other vets, thanks for your service!

Steve Romer
12-25-2009, 12:42 PM
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.:)

Steve Shafley
12-25-2009, 06:58 PM
once CF produces professional level talent in explosive sports

There's your issue right there.

The WOD is Crossfit. For a long, long time it was Greg Glassman's direct vision of what Crossfit should be. It may still be, for that matter.

The WOD has never produced an Olympian. The WOD has never produced more than 1 top 3 finisher in their own games, if even that.

The WOD is not what Kelly Starrett used on the rowers he's been so successful with, nor is the WOD what Welbourn uses for his CFFB programming.

The WOD is Crossfit.

Why?

Because circuit training isn't CF.
Olympic lifting isn't CF.
Gymnastics training isn't CF.
Combining any of those into some unholy faggotry isn't CF.

Yet, that's what CFHQ and the kool aid drinkers want to believe and want you to believe. I look at your own programming, Jay, and that's not Crossfit either. You might throw in a named workout directly from Glassman's list, but it's not the only thing you do.

Jay Ashman
12-25-2009, 07:16 PM
There's your issue right there.

The WOD is Crossfit. For a long, long time it was Greg Glassman's direct vision of what Crossfit should be. It may still be, for that matter.

The WOD has never produced an Olympian. The WOD has never produced more than 1 top 3 finisher in their own games, if even that.

The WOD is not what Kelly Starrett used on the rowers he's been so successful with, nor is the WOD what Welbourn uses for his CFFB programming.

The WOD is Crossfit.

Why?

Because circuit training isn't CF.
Olympic lifting isn't CF.
Gymnastics training isn't CF.
Combining any of those into some unholy faggotry isn't CF.

Yet, that's what CFHQ and the kool aid drinkers want to believe and want you to believe. I look at your own programming, Jay, and that's not Crossfit either. You might throw in a named workout directly from Glassman's list, but it's not the only thing you do.

well I can't argue against that point at all... but part of the beauty of being an affiliate is the ability to run your programming and your gym how you see fit.... my vision of what CF is to me is a lot different than what mainsite is.

Steve Shafley
12-25-2009, 07:22 PM
But, you see, that just ain't Crossfit despite that little piece of paper saying you're an affiliate.

And now, since I would rather indulge myself in a few beers rather than beat this dead seal cub flat, I wish you and everyone else reading this a Merry Christmas and bid you good night.

Jay Ashman
12-25-2009, 07:24 PM
But, you see, that just ain't Crossfit despite that little piece of paper saying you're an affiliate.

And now, since I would rather indulge myself in a few beers rather than beat this dead seal cub flat, I wish you and everyone else reading this a Merry Christmas and bid you good night.

merry christmas to you as well, I'm turning in soon myself... it was a great day of food, fun and drink.

Scott Kustes
12-26-2009, 11:57 AM
MeatFest is going to lean more to PM/Strongman/misc stuff as opposed to CF WODS.
Don't forget the sprints. If I recall, your street is long enough to run out to at least 75m. Find a local track and we can kill ourselves with max 400s. ;-)

peace warson
12-26-2009, 12:50 PM
400s and 800s=f'n torture..but a great workout.

Jay Ashman
12-26-2009, 01:06 PM
400s and 800s=f'n torture..but a great workout.

oh yes....

got a 40# weighted vest for xmas, so I'll be doing some 100m sprints with it on Monday :D

Alex Bond
12-26-2009, 01:29 PM
You can't be a retard about it and program 100 jumping pullups and 100 GHD situps in a workout, that is begging for disaster.

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/004456.html

Five rounds for time of:
30 Glute-ham sit-ups
25 Back extensions

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/004656.html

"Hansen"

Five rounds for time of:
2 pood Kettlebell swing, 30 reps
30 Burpees
30 Glute-ham sit-ups

Blair Lowe
12-26-2009, 02:46 PM
Hmm, I do dig on the Jolie. I heard she was going to my friend's affiliate a bit because her bf was going to their parkour class. In fact, one of the guys there was pretty smitten about Jolie-hahah. Ok, it wasn't me...really.

Some of my local friends call me their CF friend, especially when one of them found out one of the founding members of the SuicideGirls has become a CF junkie. And I do something like CF maybe 1x a week or every other and generally when I'm at home and too lazy to go to the gym. Something in that 5-15m range so I can be done fast and not feel too guilty about staying at home.

George Mounce
12-26-2009, 06:12 PM
Don't get me wrong, I've met Jolie, she's a very nice and attractive woman. But that doesn't mean we need to do that in this forum IMHO.

Jane Michel
12-26-2009, 07:06 PM
Five rounds for time of:
30 Glute-ham sit-ups
25 Back extensions


This reminds me of the first and last time I tried it lol. I got so dizzy after the first round from going up and down that I had to stop. There were other people posting in the comments section about dizziness too.

peace warson
12-26-2009, 07:32 PM
Don't get me wrong, I've met Jolie, she's a very nice and attractive woman. But that doesn't mean we need to do that in this forum IMHO.

not habitually. but once in a while..

peace warson
12-26-2009, 08:27 PM
a cfitter's response:

"Mr. Caviston's critique is neither thoughtful nor important.

He says he has studied CrossFit extensively and has sat in on seminars. Yet he writes that CrossFit prescribes the same weights for everyone. He also believes that leg curls and bicep curls are useful.

Given those statements, sensible people will know how much importance to attach to Mr. Caviston's other views: none.

What role CrossFit can play in BUD/s prep and training is an interesting topic. But Mr. Caviston's critique does nothing to advance the dialogue."

wow. the arrogance and level of disrespect is shocking. wow.

Gavin Harrison
12-26-2009, 11:57 PM
I don't think Welbourn used CF when he was playing in the NFL) then they can say something like that.

I believe Welbourn attended a crossfit l1 cert (first exposure to cf) between seasons and got cut before the next.

Jay Ashman
12-27-2009, 01:48 AM
I believe Welbourn attended a crossfit l1 cert (first exposure to cf) between seasons and got cut before the next.

interesting, but I don't think that would determine him getting cut, maybe it was just his time to get cut.

Welbourn was a good player for several years though, he definitely lasted longer than the average player does in the NFL

Edward Flood
12-27-2009, 06:37 AM
a cfitter's response:

"Mr. Caviston's critique is neither thoughtful nor important.

He says he has studied CrossFit extensively and has sat in on seminars. Yet he writes that CrossFit prescribes the same weights for everyone. He also believes that leg curls and bicep curls are useful.

Given those statements, sensible people will know how much importance to attach to Mr. Caviston's other views: none.

What role CrossFit can play in BUD/s prep and training is an interesting topic. But Mr. Caviston's critique does nothing to advance the dialogue."

wow. the arrogance and level of disrespect is shocking. wow.

Hmmm, remembered this dude's name from somewhere

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/004644.html

look at Comment #77 and the vid

Now strangely enough, there were some journal vids recently of guys demonstrating proper stone-lifting techinique, which also involved some rounding. Is that "dishonest and unprofessional conduct" too?

Just thought it was interesting. Carry on!

George Mounce
12-27-2009, 07:14 AM
While some like Welbourn, I think his past is the reason people are continually saying the top performers are doing something more than CF.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/chiefs/2005-09-03-welbourn-suspension_x.htm

The fact he had to do that in his past (probably for recovery issues), tells me he was done way back when.

Gavin Harrison
12-27-2009, 08:01 AM
interesting, but I don't think that would determine him getting cut, maybe it was just his time to get cut.

Welbourn was a good player for several years though, he definitely lasted longer than the average player does in the NFL

Right.. my only point was that he never got a chance to apply his CF ideas to himself at the highest levels before cf football was released.

Jay Ashman
12-27-2009, 08:47 AM
While some like Welbourn, I think his past is the reason people are continually saying the top performers are doing something more than CF.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/chiefs/2005-09-03-welbourn-suspension_x.htm

The fact he had to do that in his past (probably for recovery issues), tells me he was done way back when.

steroids are almost a fact of life in professional sports, its a shame but its true...

peace warson
12-27-2009, 09:36 AM
old(er) news from igx, but here ya go:

"I asked Mike to introduce himself, and while he covers most of it, I think he does so modestly. He doesn't mention below his three CRASH-B wins, his 1988 World Record for lightweights or his 2002 6:18.2 World Record for the 40-49 lightweights which still stands. I'm sure I've missed a few things but suffice it to say Mike isn't just reporting scientific theory - he has lived his research and the results speak for themselves!

"My name is Mike Caviston and I have long had an interest in the physiology of training and racing for many sports but especially rowing. I have a master’s degree in Kinesiology from the University of Michigan, where I have been a Lecturer since 1994, primarily teaching courses in Exercise Physiology and Sports Biomechanics. I compete in indoor rowing (40+LW category) and for more than 20 years have been involved off and on as a coach with the U of M’s men’s and/or woman’s rowing programs. My last stint was as conditioning coach for the women’s team from 2000-2004, when I designed a training program called the Wolverine Plan"

i'm listening to the guy that has evidence that he knows what he's talking about. ya know, stuff that's been observed, tested, and recorded, or whatever that part of the mantra is. oh yeah, and who's lived it as well as learned it.

Ganine Vanalst
12-27-2009, 11:13 AM
old(er) news from igx, but here ya go:

"I asked Mike to introduce himself, and while he covers most of it, I think he does so modestly. He doesn't mention below his three CRASH-B wins, his 1988 World Record for lightweights or his 2002 6:18.2 World Record for the 40-49 lightweights which still stands. I'm sure I've missed a few things but suffice it to say Mike isn't just reporting scientific theory - he has lived his research and the results speak for themselves!

"My name is Mike Caviston and I have long had an interest in the physiology of training and racing for many sports but especially rowing. I have a masterís degree in Kinesiology from the University of Michigan, where I have been a Lecturer since 1994, primarily teaching courses in Exercise Physiology and Sports Biomechanics. I compete in indoor rowing (40+LW category) and for more than 20 years have been involved off and on as a coach with the U of Mís menís and/or womanís rowing programs. My last stint was as conditioning coach for the womenís team from 2000-2004, when I designed a training program called the Wolverine Plan"

i'm listening to the guy that has evidence that he knows what he's talking about. ya know, stuff that's been observed, tested, and recorded, or whatever that part of the mantra is. oh yeah, and who's lived it as well as learned it.

I was reading the thread concerning Caviston and someone mentioned that they didn't see how curls/isolation work would be useful for SEALs training. Caviston in his post concerning CF mentions them as being a useful part of training and is being criticized for this opinion. I have no clue what is involved with SEALs training, but I am open-water dive certified and have gone on some day/night dives. I was also nicknamed Beluga by my school volleyball team when I was a teenager because they said I dived for the ball like a whale (wasn't a pretty sight). And that is the extent of my qualifications on the matter.

That said, I was thinking about when I was diving (scuba, not for a volleyball) and had to hold on to the boat with one hand and grab a piece of equipment floating in front of me, off to the side, or right below the water with the other and bring it towards me. Your legs are taken out of the equation and provide no leverage, so it seems like in those conditions you are essentially doing a bicep curl. When completely submerged with nothing to hold onto with the other hand you have absolutely no leverage and again if you need to grab something (person, equipment, etc.) and bring it towards you it seems to me you are doing a strict curl. I prefer compound movements in general, but I can see where a good argument can be made for isolation work being useful in this context. What am I missing?

Mike ODonnell
12-27-2009, 12:17 PM
Everyone's a critic....especially when they think their way is the most superior one ever invented....which usually means they lack experience in understanding/implementing other programs in the first place.

Sad some people just need to keep putting down anything different just to float their own need to be better than everyone else. You are ether insecure or trying to sell something.

Joe Hart
12-27-2009, 12:19 PM
I can't remember where I read it. I think it was a Russian coach that would have his lifters do some curls and Tris to stabilize the elbow joint. Now whether that really works or not I don't know. Remember the OLY guy in the Olympics that had his elbow come unglued on a SN. It was nasty.

peace warson
12-27-2009, 12:22 PM
i hear ya, i prefer compound movements in general, too, ganine. but as we all know (and some of us are willing to admit) there are those things called assistance exercises that have been observed to be useful in strengthening one's ability to do the compound movements (among other things). just because you do isolation exercises doesn't mean you don't understand/do "functional" training.
and as for your diving experience, you're obviously a specialist, so, um, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Jay Ashman
12-27-2009, 12:23 PM
Everyone's a critic....especially when they think their way is the most superior one ever invented....which usually means they lack experience in understanding/implementing other programs in the first place.

Sad some people just need to keep putting down anything different just to float their own need to be better than everyone else. You are ether insecure or trying to sell something.

exactly, what it comes down to is finding what suits your athletic needs. Some people just need CF-type programming for general fitness and average strength, some people want more strength, some people want more endurance, some want to train for a sport.

Everyone wants to criticize everyone else's training style and say their way is gospel. I say who cares, as long as you are safe, smart, technically/fundamentally sound and educate yourself, train how you want for the results you need.

Jonathan Silverman
12-27-2009, 02:03 PM
you know im not allowed to post on the cf messageboard without my comments first get moderator approval. thsi happened after i expressed displeasure at the letting go of Rob Wolff. really crazy.


look at this old post on the cf mesageboard:

The CrossFit community and message board have grown tremendously in the past year and that growth has spawned some of the best discussion on fitness and nutrition anywhere on the Net.

Our community here has reached the point in size and complexity where help is needed to control and manage this board so that it can continue to support discourse that is honest, civil, and useful.

The board's value derives from the contributions of the community, so Lauren and I have decided that the community should guide this board, not us. With that in mind we have chosen twelve people from among your numbers to manage the CrossFit.com message board in everyoneís trust.

There is little that could portend better for the CrossFit family than to have the judgment of these fine CrossFitters guiding and representing all of us:

Lynne Pitts
Brian Mulvaney
Mark Twight
Kelly Moore
John McCracken
Dave Werner
Dan John
Nick Nibbler
Ryan Atkins
Mike Minium
Robb Wolf
Dave Wood

Thank You,

Greg and Lauren Glassman

George Mounce
12-27-2009, 02:08 PM
I sure hope they are paying someone to moderate all those posts.

Jonathan Silverman
12-27-2009, 02:23 PM
I sure hope they are paying someone to moderate all those posts.

it really sucks, they disabled my acct basically. no posting no viewing profiles of other users.

i have no recourse it seems.

Tom Rawls
12-27-2009, 04:19 PM
Are those hurt feelings?

Man up or get thee to the Oprah forum.

Jonathan Silverman
12-27-2009, 04:55 PM
Are those hurt feelings?

Man up or get thee to the Oprah forum.

thanks man, your right.

i do feel hurt and icky inside. really.

i will be ok, i just shouldn't go back to that forum

Derek Weaver
12-27-2009, 05:53 PM
I sure hope they are paying someone to moderate all those posts.

Cults don't work that way. I'm guessing those with "Crossfit Staff" on their profile collect a modest wage. The rest are likely true believers volunteering their time for the good of the community.

Mike ODonnell
12-27-2009, 06:21 PM
i just shouldn't go back to that forum

Move onward and go forward, why keep looking back? No hard feelings and just leave it in the past like an old ex-girlfriend.

George Mounce
12-27-2009, 07:12 PM
it really sucks, they disabled my acct basically. no posting no viewing profiles of other users.

i have no recourse it seems.

I'd say, uh welcome to the club? Have you ever looked at what is under my name on the CF forums?

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=11567

Man, I wasted a lot of time posting over there. Funny how I'm leaner, stronger, and barring doing stupid things to hurt myself (recent back injury due to leaning while pulling Gs), can do a lot more. Feeling great now, can't wait for tomorrow morning to get into my program again.

Jonathan Yoon
12-29-2009, 07:30 AM
I'd say, uh welcome to the club? Have you ever looked at what is under my name on the CF forums?

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=11567

Man, I wasted a lot of time posting over there. Funny how I'm leaner, stronger, and barring doing stupid things to hurt myself (recent back injury due to leaning while pulling Gs), can do a lot more. Feeling great now, can't wait for tomorrow morning to get into my program again.

I still laugh when I read "Banned for Ethical and Integrity Violations" under your name and often think Ethical...Integrity...Pot...Kettle...

peace warson
12-30-2009, 02:04 PM
(via igx) a very mature and eloquent response from mr. caviston, after being called out:

John, thanks for taking the time to share your views. You are clearly using an alias (not surprising for a SEAL) since there is no record of anyone named “Dixon” with either first or middle name “John” or any related name having gone through BUD/S. I would be interested in knowing what class you were in and what people we both know. You can get my contact information in the Global so feel free to drop me a line or give me a call, especially if you want to talk over any of my comments in more detail. I’m going to quote a few of your comments and address them.

‘They have started a program at Bootcamp that specifically prepares men to go to BUD/S. The first class to go thru this program showed up last year and they were touted as "The Immortals" because of how they looked w/ their shirts off and the numbers they were producing during runs, swims, etc. Hellweek came around and guess who went running for the bell?’

I recently answered a question on this board about the NSW Prep Course. The first class to go through the program got only half the planned training, and you are right, at BUD/S they performed statistically below average. Historically there has been plenty of individual variation from class to class, with few classes performing right at the statistical mean. BUD/S Prep has been modified and updated since its inception, and averaged over the past ten classes or so performance during BUD/S has improved significantly compared to historical records. Better PST scores, better performance on timed evolutions, fewer performance failures, fewer med drops, and most importantly, about a 50% increase in Hell Week completions. And any skeptic who says “BUD/S got easier” doesn’t know what he is talking about.

‘Mike what I am getting at is that CF teaches elements of being "hard". Hard is really w/o definition but when you witness it, you know it.’

Actually, it turns out “hard” does have a definition. Some truly groundbreaking work has been done at BUD/S by a psychologist who has spent years in the SOF community. The concept is Mental Toughness, it can be defined and quantified, has been measured in BUD/S candidates, and has been used in conjunction with PST scores to predict success at BUD/S with a very high degree of accuracy. Mental Toughness techniques are currently being taught in Pre-BUD/S and BUD/S, and they don’t parallel Crossfit. As with physical training, mental training can’t turn a geek into a superstar. The personality traits that determine success are probably established well before someone is old enough to do Crossfit or any other program. I’m sure you’ve heard the phrases “SEALs are born, not made” and “BUD/S doesn’t make SEALs, it finds them”. Recruiting efforts are being made to find the guys with the right mental qualities, and then steps are taken to provide them with the physical tools necessary for success. Now I’m editorializing, but what I’ve seen of Crossfit doesn’t teach hardness, it teaches ways to simulate hardness. In my rowing days, we called the rowing ergometer a Truth Machine, because you could make all the pained expressions and ugly faces you want but the numbers didn’t lie. We called people who collapsed on the floor after an erg test Drama Queens. In Crossfit, there can be no discussion of whose Fran time is faster without a debate about who got their butt lower and locked out properly on thrusters and got their chin closer to the bar on pull-ups. So much for measurable, observable, repeatable. And collapsing on the floor afterward is mandatory.

‘You say CF presents a distorted percentage of guys in the Teams doing the workouts? Mike, really, what is your basis for this? "Asking around" to a couple guys in the lounge on your breaks does not constitute that. The Teams is rife w/ avid CF'rs. Walk into any gym and during the high traffic hours and I would bet my paycheck there is someone doing one. I know I always see someone doing them where I work out. Again, I do some of the workouts. I think it is flawed in alot of ways but it is 80% there. If you exercise some caution in your abilities and learning the moves, it will do amazing things for you.’

My basis for my comment about the percentage of guys in the Teams using Crossfit is my interaction with new Instructors at the Center during a three week orientation course during which I give classes on physical training, motor skills, and nutrition. I touch base with the Instructors in the different BUD/S phases on a regular basis. I live in Coronado and see guys from the Teams around town and we talk. From time to time I hear from a recent SQT grad getting integrated into his first Team. None of this gives me total knowledge about what goes on across all of NSW, but it’s a more accurate picture than the typical reader of the Crossfit message board is going to get from the regulars who post there. As for your comment about walking into any NSW gym and seeing a Crossfit workout going on, that is true enough. Is doing a Crossfit workout the same as “doing Crossfit”? My original post on the topic was clear on the issue of what I am calling “Crossfit”. Do you know any SEALs who train only by following the main page WOD? Did you see anybody do all three days of that 1-10-1-20-1-30 format? Anybody do that rowing/Turkish get-up with 60lb. dumbbell routine for time? Anybody do that one arm thruster, one arm pull-up thing with the 60lb. dumbbell? I didn’t either.

‘Mike, you are a rower. A gut wrenching sport, no doubt where pain and suffering is synonymous. But you don't lift heavy weight, you don't do 150 sit ups on hot asphalt till a huge wound shows on your back You don't do rope climbs till you have burns on both your ankles b/c you burnt down trying to get your boat crew to win. You don't do your class number in pullups for a workout b/c damnit that is just what is done. Doing sprints up a berm in wet cammies covered in sand isn't easy no matter what you do. You don't "get some". You're one of "them" in the white lab coat and a clipboard.’

I don’t get offended at any challenges to my physical abilities by people in the SOF community. It goes with the territory. But since you brought it up I’m going to indulge myself and do something I wouldn’t ordinarily do, and brag about myself a little bit. Yeah, as a rower I learned a lot about pain and suffering. When I was the age of the typical BUD/S student, I was up in the mornings at oh-dark-thirty putting my shell in the water with my teammates. In early spring we carried the boats from the racks to the beach in bare feet through the snow and waded into the ice-filmed water since the dock hadn’t yet been installed. Not even the Eskimo have a name for the kind of cold you feel in your feet and hands on days like that. Nothing can beat the chafing scars and Grinder Reminders that I’ve seen on BUD/S students, but rowers are no strangers to blisters and abrasions, especially in equipment from the 70s. In recent years I’ve shown a fair level of commitment to achieve some success in indoor rowing. But I’m hardly a one trick pony, and I don’t have any need to live in the past.

Currently I’m working at the Center and I’m 48 years old but I can do anything people do around here that involves running or lifting just as well as the students or Instructors. I don’t spend my time in a white coat holding a clipboard. I get in and do it with the guys. I’ve done PTs and conditioning runs with BUD/S classes and finished a helluva lot closer to the front than the back. I’ve worked out with Instructors many times, even sometimes doing (gasp!) Crossfit workouts. I’ve done multiple workouts in the same day when guys have needed another body for some kind of relay involving tire flipping, kettle bell swinging, slam balling, box jumping, etc. Once I did a challenge where we did 5 pull-ups, 10 push-ups, and 15 air squats every minute for as many minutes as our age. I was the oldest guy and the only guy to finish. When I lift I don’t spend a lot of time on the Big Three (in fact I don’t squat at all), but I can dead lift more than twice my body weight and bench my body weight multiple times. I can do more than 20 slow dead hang pull-ups on a bad day and well over 30 if I speed things up (still without kipping). I’ve run the O-course in under 10 minutes, hardly a record but exceeding the minimum BUD/S standard. Just a few days ago I rowed 20K on the Concept2 in under 75 minutes (calculate that pace and compare it to the times you see reported on Crossfit for the 5K rows), got off the machine, grabbed a 100lb. bar, and cranked out 45 thrusters in about two minutes. Just because I could. One of my favorite activities is flipping the logs used for Log PT, an exercise that is popular with a lot of Instructors and Team guys. I can crank out more flips in less time than most, and follow it with a brisk 5-mile run and then berm sprints. I do all of these things in full view of the many NSW employees and BUD/S students, so I defy anybody to say I’m exaggerating.

‘Mike, you and I know Castro knows EXACTLY what your job is. Just be honest. There are PLENTY of former and Current SEALs that are plugged into what is happening at CF.’

Dave Castro, former SQT Instructor and now one of the main employees of Crossfit, knows almost nothing about my job. In over two years, we spoke maybe 3-4 times. Yes, there are plenty of former and current SEALs plugged into Crossfit. It is unfortunate you don’t recognize the conflict of interest when it comes to these people making recommendations to BUD/S candidates.

I’m sure the debate about my comments will go on, here as well as on several other internet forums. Having nothing more to add, I bow out and wish everyone well.

Mike Caviston
Director of Fitness, NSWCEN

http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=162

Steve Shafley
12-30-2009, 07:11 PM
To call Welbourn out on steroid use in the NFL is like calling out a pilot for stimulant use on a long flight.

Let's be real here, the vast majority of you have no idea on how the addition of painkillers and anabolics can ease the burden of competing at legitimate professional levels of sport, and you're opinions are based on the opinions of individuals whom have no understanding of the medical properties of anabolic steroids.

Steroids are one of those "best practices" you never hear about because of the stigma associated with their use, but rest assured that many, many, many people you might admire for their physical prowess, including LEOs, specops types, athletes, both professional and recreational, and even that buff older dude at the gym, are using them in intelligent ways and probably with low doses that minimally impact the HTPA.

Why aren't PED testing results available at the XF games? Because they were probably never done, just lip service was paid to "testing" and the whole thing was faked, because nobody 'in the know' really gives a shit.

Nowadays, HRT is gaining in popularity. I have numerous friends who are on HRT and it's been an almost miraculous turn around for them. I am pretty sure Mike Rutherford wrote an article on this for an early issue of the Pmenu, and I believe it was pretty balanced.

The fact remains that intelligent use of anabolics is essentially less dangerous that taking OTC anti-inflams or painkillers on a regular basis.

Ganine Vanalst
12-30-2009, 07:29 PM
I am pretty sure Mike Rutherford wrote an article on this for an early issue of the Pmenu, and I believe it was pretty balanced.

I think you are referring to "Boy Problems: A Look at Male Hormone Replacement Therapy" in Issue 19 August 2006 (if anyone is interested).

Jay Ashman
12-30-2009, 07:43 PM
To call Welbourn out on steroid use in the NFL is like calling out a pilot for stimulant use on a long flight.perhaps, but it is still a banned substance in the NFL. Whether it is a fact of the sport or not, you get caught you get suspended.

Let's be real here, the vast majority of you have no idea on how the addition of painkillers and anabolics can ease the burden of competing at legitimate professional levels of sport, and you're opinions are based on the opinions of individuals whom have no understanding of the medical properties of anabolic steroids. Some of us have vast experience at a pretty high level of sports. I disagree with that statement, maybe not the entire board, but a lot of us do.

Steroids are one of those "best practices" you never hear about because of the stigma associated with their use, but rest assured that many, many, many people you might admire for their physical prowess, including LEOs, specops types, athletes, both professional and recreational, and even that buff older dude at the gym, are using them in intelligent ways and probably with low doses that minimally impact the HTPA.Agree there.
Why aren't PED testing results available at the XF games? Because they were probably never done, just lip service was paid to "testing" and the whole thing was faked, because nobody 'in the know' really gives a shit.then how come no Games athlete came out and said "I wasn't tested". I believe they were, even if the tests weren't that good, I believe they were. Whether or not anyone tested positive is a different issue entirely, but we will never know for sure...

Nowadays, HRT is gaining in popularity. I have numerous friends who are on HRT and it's been an almost miraculous turn around for them. I am pretty sure Mike Rutherford wrote an article on this for an early issue of the Pmenu, and I believe it was pretty balanced.

The fact remains that intelligent use of anabolics is essentially less dangerous that taking OTC anti-inflams or painkillers on a regular basis.

HRT is very safe when under the proper care and supervision and done correctly for sure, no argument there. I believe low test is the new male epidemic and a lot more men will be on TRT in the near future for legitimate reasons.

George Mounce
12-30-2009, 08:43 PM
I believe low test is the new male epidemic and a lot more men will be on TRT in the near future for legitimate reasons.

The only legitimate reason is something abnormal.

If men need therapy to be a man, they need to turn in their man card.

John C Carter
12-30-2009, 10:20 PM
then how come no Games athlete came out and said "I wasn't tested". I believe they were, even if the tests weren't that good, I believe they were. Whether or not anyone tested positive is a different issue entirely, but we will never know for sure...

Just cause you piss into a cup doesn't mean the cup goes anywhere but the trash can.

Besides, drug testing is expensive, even more expensive than gin, and you know what the priority is.

George Mounce
12-31-2009, 05:46 AM
Just cause you piss into a cup doesn't mean the cup goes anywhere but the trash can.

Besides, drug testing is expensive, even more expensive than gin, and you know what the priority is.

"Drug" testing isn't that expensive at all (hell you can get mass produced $2 kits).

PED testing is, around $100 a person. It also involves an independent lab in most cases for the purposes of security and integrity (cough).

So if they did do it, they probably did it using something like this, http://www.craigmedical.com/Steroid_Testing.htm and never releasing the results.

Plus don't get me wrong, I've been no shit drug tested for over 10 years now by the military, and to do it right, you use their methodology and security, which involves an observer who has to watch the stream come out and the collection cup never leaves the sight of the observer at any time (well in a perfect world, some guys are a bit hesitant to view another man's junk, so they prefer the "just the stream" method, still better than nobody being there). Not some go behind a flap and take a piss.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 06:02 AM
The only legitimate reason is something abnormal.

If men need therapy to be a man, they need to turn in their man card.Low Test is abnormal. Its something that happens for a myriad of reasons.

Garrett Smith
12-31-2009, 06:05 AM
The only legitimate reason is something abnormal.

If men need therapy to be a man, they need to turn in their man card.
George, you might educate yourself on things like "endocrine disruptors" and "xenoestrogens", for legitimate reasons why men might need TRT.

Then again, wait 10-20 years and your feelings on the subject might be quite different.

"The Disappearing Male" (http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/). This is real and scary stuff.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 06:07 AM
George, you might educate yourself on things like "endocrine disruptors" and "xenoestrogens", for legitimate reasons why men might need TRT.

Then again, wait 10-20 years and your feelings on the subject might be quite different.

agree 100%. I bet a lot of us know men on it, without even realizing that they are on.

I'm sure G agrees with me in saying that this will become a bigger and bigger problem for me as time goes on.

Jonathan Silverman
12-31-2009, 07:31 AM
I saw a yellow newspaper article on a bulletin board in the science wing of a community college once, which spoke of the dangers of pregnant women using makeup!

There is some bad chemicals in makeup that affect the devlopment of the male fetus. The scientists used this metric: the distance between the scrotum and the anus. It was a shorter distance in men whose mothers wore makeup during their pregnanacy.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 07:39 AM
I saw a yellow newspaper article on a bulletin board in the science wing of a community college once, which spoke of the dangers of pregnant women using makeup!

There is some bad chemicals in makeup that affect the devlopment of the male fetus. The scientists used this metric: the distance between the scrotum and the anus. It was a shorter distance in women who wore makeup during their pregnanacy.

Not surprised at all...

Environmental stress, chemicals, hormones in foods, phytoestrogens, etc. are all contributing to the decline of testosterone in men by generation

check this .pdf out for some more info. It is badly formatted
http://www.musculardevelopment.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1387

and this: http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/newscience/reproduction/2006/2006-1210travisonetal.html

it will only get worse, and TRT/HRT will become an answer for those men.

Mike ODonnell
12-31-2009, 08:04 AM
How this thread got on to hormones I will never know....but it is a massive gray area much like any kind of "supplement". You can get HGH prescribed by a doctor esp if your levels are low or coming off surgery, but then again.....everyone's declines after their 20s. The FDA did their job to slow this down several years back in the raids of compounding pharmacies to shut down the supply of HGH to many clinics/Drs "prescribing" it esp for "anti-aging" treatments.

Personally I don't see how low dose test/HGH under doctor supervision to improve health in the later years (not performance) is much any different than spending $100s on supplements for the same results (esp when many supplements may be useless in the first place). Like anything, if abused will lead to more problems than solutions.

Compared to all the crap modern medicine is ok with dumping in our bodies, HGH seems like the lessor of most evils.

That is not to say that one can not be healthy without needing it as well though, it just seems to be used more when "performance" or "muscle" is the goal vs real health reasons.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 08:18 AM
How this thread got on to hormones I will never know....but it is a massive gray area much like any kind of "supplement". You can get HGH prescribed by a doctor esp if your levels are low or coming off surgery, but then again.....everyone's declines after their 20s. The FDA did their job to slow this down several years back in the raids of compounding pharmacies to shut down the supply of HGH to many clinics/Drs "prescribing" it esp for "anti-aging" treatments.

Personally I don't see how low dose test/HGH under doctor supervision to improve health in the later years (not performance) is much any different than spending $100s on supplements for the same results (esp when many supplements may be useless in the first place). Like anything, if abused will lead to more problems than solutions.

Compared to all the crap modern medicine is ok with dumping in our bodies, HGH seems like the lessor of most evils.

That is not to say that one can not be healthy without needing it as well though, it just seems to be used more when "performance" or "muscle" is the goal vs real health reasons.

this thread took so many different directions it is amazing...

those compounding pharmacies that got shut down were doing it in a shady fashion. What would happen is this:

you would call an anti-aging clinic (often FL based), the person would refer you to a doctor to go to for a physical (they have doctors all over), he would write you a script to get filled at a compounding pharmacy that you could mail out or have filled at a local compounding pharmacy. A lot of these doctors and clinics operated in the gray area, not being totally legit but having a legit sounding front to it, which is why a lot of pro athletes that got caught used them, and why some were shut down.

Most states require blood work every 3-4 months to check progress and if your numbers are above the limit for free test and testosterone the doc is legally bound to lower your dose, some of those shady anti-aging clinics don't do blood work at all, they just do a "physical" and ask questions.

There is a big difference between legitimate TRT and supplementation. Testosterone is a vital hormone and if it is low it can cause a myriad of health problems, of which I am sure you are aware. So if a man in his 30's (and up) is low in that hormone, I have all the understanding in the world in his decision to go on TRT.

Plus, some people abused steroids and pro-hormones and they ruined their production of that hormone and they will need to be on TRT once they get their blood work done by a reputable doctor.

As long as it is done for health reasons and not for performance reasons it is a good thing and can make a man feel like himself again. But, if a guy goes on TRT just because he wants to increase his performance or look better, and doesn't really need it, he is causing himself more problems than he realizes.

George Mounce
12-31-2009, 08:40 AM
George, you might educate yourself on things like "endocrine disruptors" and "xenoestrogens", for legitimate reasons why men might need TRT.

Then again, wait 10-20 years and your feelings on the subject might be quite different.

"The Disappearing Male" (http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/). This is real and scary stuff.

I've waited 100,000 years of human males to find out that all the sudden when someone calls something by a name, it all the sudden exists?

Don't make shit up based on a test of the weak.

The pussification of men is based on not allowing kids to be winners and losers, giving a damn trophy to everyone who plays, people going to a market to get their food rather than killing it, people playing video games all day instead of going to a gym and getting an hour of exercise, and basically doctors and big pharma wanting to make money off of overly perceived problems with people.

Its silly BS and needs to stop being spread.

Go out and hunt some shit. Do things to RAISE it naturally like having sex everyday and lifting heavy stuff.

You guys sound like Bayer or Johnson and Johnson now. Lets supplement people! Seriously?

Ugh, again another thread ruined by silliness.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 08:55 AM
I've waited 100,000 years of human males to find out that all the sudden when someone calls something by a name, it all the sudden exists?

Don't make shit up based on a test of the weak.

The pussification of men is based on not allowing kids to be winners and losers, giving a damn trophy to everyone who plays, people going to a market to get their food rather than killing it, people playing video games all day instead of going to a gym and getting an hour of exercise, and basically doctors and big pharma wanting to make money off of overly perceived problems with people.

Its silly BS and needs to stop being spread.

Go out and hunt some shit. Do things to RAISE it naturally like having sex everyday and lifting heavy stuff.

You guys sound like Bayer or Johnson and Johnson now. Lets supplement people! Seriously?

Ugh, again another thread ruined by silliness.

yea, George, god forbid people have medical problems that need attention, the doc should just tell them to lift heavy shit and it will all go away.

Garrett Smith
12-31-2009, 09:00 AM
George, did you watch the video? Do you think the "pussification" of human males is also affecting animals?...Because this is being very thoroughly documented through research. Animal genitals are not shrinking because we're giving every little boy a trophy and letting them play video games.

Most TRT is being done outside of the conventional pharmaceutical world.

Don't military pilots get pretty heavily "supplemented"? Stimulants, etc.?

What you call silliness is another person's quality of life.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 09:07 AM
George, did you watch the video? Do you think the "pussification" of human males is also affecting animals?...Because this is being very thoroughly documented through research. Animal genitals are not shrinking because we're giving every little boy a trophy and letting them play video games.

Most TRT is being done outside of the conventional pharmaceutical world.

Don't military pilots get pretty heavily "supplemented"? Stimulants, etc.?

What you call silliness is another person's quality of life.

even done through a doctor, the cost of testosterone as a raw material is incredibly cheap, when done via injections it is very cheap, only when you go into the Androgel/Androderm realm does it get expensive because of their patented delivery system.

compounding pharmacies can often make a superior product than Androgel for a fraction of the cost.

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-31-2009, 10:08 AM
I played rugby for ten years as a started for d2 and d3 (broke my collar bone in my second season), I dead lift, squat, press and compete in the Oly lifts, eat lots of meat, veggies and fruit and I'm a novice judo player (coming in second in my first tourny). My free test is also well below average for my age group let alone for 25 year old and my estrogen is also high. Now I'm on HRT.

Are you going to call me a pussy?

Garrett Smith
12-31-2009, 10:14 AM
I'm guessing Coach Rut might be on TRT too.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 10:19 AM
I played rugby for ten years as a started for d2 and d3 (broke my collar bone in my second season), I dead lift, squat, press and compete in the Oly lifts, eat lots of meat, veggies and fruit and I'm a novice judo player (coming in second in my first tourny). My free test is also well below average for my age group let alone for 25 year old and my estrogen is also high. Now I'm on HRT.

Are you going to call me a pussy?

hear hear...

Rugby player here for 10 years myself (D2 and D1, started as a #3), played FB for 5 years, competed in strongman and highland games and I ended up on TRT because my levels ended up low because of OTC pro-hormones (superdrol, M1T, 1AD, halodrol, orastan-e, etc. before the ban) and not coming off of them correctly at all... basically shut my own body down using legal supplements.

I know a lot about this subject because of my own history with it and I will say that TRT essentially is giving me my life back. Its a godsend and I know a lot of people on it and they have similar success.

I'm sure this will end up being fodder for the "gossip boards" but that's ok, I have nothing to hide about it and everything I do is by the book and under medical supervision and treatment.

For someone to say, "its the pussification of men", that is an idiotic statement and they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

I never had a video game system growing up, I played outside. I played a lot of sports in my youth and got into lifting at an early age. I learned to win and lose, and we didn't get trophies when we lost.

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-31-2009, 10:28 AM
I play video games, but this is the first time I've taken any kind of hormone. My low test is probaly related to chronically bad sleep (I had a UP3 surgery last year).

Jay,

Just saw your "fun" work out. Dear lord man.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 10:32 AM
I play video games, but this is the first time I've taken any kind of hormone. My low test is probaly related to chronically bad sleep (I had a UP3 surgery last year).

Jay,

Just saw your "fun" work out. Dear lord man.

yea man, that makes sense. I regret taking those pro-hormones but I was naive and didn't do enough research into them first.

Oh yes, that workout.... the 12-9-6 deadlift/squat/bench press/400m run one?

Not bad for a "CrossFitter" eh? ;) guess my training hurts me so I can't pull 400# and squat 300# for reps like that, eh? :D

Jonathan Yoon
12-31-2009, 10:48 AM
Are you going to call me a pussy?

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/128340504491406250charismaiha.jpg

No comment. :D

Jamie J. Skibicki
12-31-2009, 10:55 AM
Fair enough. I also has humor.

And the Meatfest.

Jay Ashman
12-31-2009, 12:12 PM
Johnathan, best... comeback...ever ha

Steve Shafley
12-31-2009, 12:47 PM
OK. That was my last rant of 2009.

Every year I turn loose the hatred and give everyone a free pass until they say enough stupid things for me to allow myself to be provoked into hate.

Mounce...you're a pilot, right? So you've never used stimulants on flights, have you? Stimulants that are illegal for me to possess without a prescription?

Anyway.

I believe that XF Games competitors were told they were being tested, but really were not.

Dave Van Skike
12-31-2009, 01:24 PM
all of the self righteousness in this thread is making me want to stock up on anabolics, take off my shirt and do some kipping pullups.

John C Carter
12-31-2009, 02:30 PM
"Drug" testing isn't that expensive at all (hell you can get mass produced $2 kits).

PED testing is, around $100 a person. It also involves an independent lab in most cases for the purposes of security and integrity (cough).

Nothing like arguing over semantics when the semantics weren't even in question, is it?