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Daniel Gam
12-17-2009, 07:33 PM
have you guys seen the louie simmons videos on the CF site? what do you guys think
he makes some pretty bold claims about the wide powerlifting squat and its usefulness. do you think that a wide stance/box squat would ever have any place in olympic lifting training?

it feels similar to doing good mornings except with a wider stance allowing a more vertical torso

Donald Lee
12-17-2009, 08:59 PM
have you guys seen the louie simmons videos on the CF site? what do you guys think
he makes some pretty bold claims about the wide powerlifting squat and its usefulness. do you think that a wide stance/box squat would ever have any place in olympic lifting training?

it feels similar to doing good mornings except with a wider stance allowing a more vertical torso

I don't think it has any place in OLW. You could argue that wide stance squatting is an effective variation for low bar back squatting to parallel. Louie Simmons is most likely correct when he states that wide squatting translates to narrower squatting but not vice versa. Wide squatting brings the adductors into play to a greater extent than in narrower squatting. But a relatively narrow powerlifting squat is way different from a full Olympic squat. If you want to work the hamstrings, glutes, and adductors, the wide squat could be useful. If you want more balance, you could utilize the high bar squat. Also, Louie Simmons is correct when he states that feet angle has been proven to show no effect on quadricep recruitment.

The below may provde useful to some people...or it may not:


Wretenberg P, Feng Y, Arborelius U High- and low-bar squatting techniques
during weight-training.
Med Sci Sports Exerc 1996 Feb; 28(2):218-24

National class weightlifters performed "high-bar" squats and national class
powerlifters performed "low-bar" squats, with a barbell weight of 65% of
their 1 RM, and to parallel- and a deep-squatting depth. Ground reaction
forces were measured with a force platform and motion was analyzed from a
video record of the squats.

The peak moments of force were flexing both for the hip and the knee.
The mean peak moments of force at the hip were:

1. Weightlifters 230 Nm (deep) and 216 Nm (parallel)
2. Powerlifters 324 Nm (deep), and 309 Nm (parallel).

At the knee the mean peak moments for:

1. Weightlifters were 191 Nm (deep) and 131 Nm (parallel)
2. Powerlifters, 139 Nm (deep) and 92 Nm (parallel).

The weightlifters had the load more equally distributed between hip and knee,
whereas the powerlifters put relatively more load on the hip joint. The thigh
muscular activity was slightly higher for the powerlifters.

Donald Lee
12-17-2009, 09:00 PM
Here's what Bud Charigna wrote on his site:

...Box squats. There is no such thing as box squat technique
because no one should do squats to a box or another rigid surface for
that matter. The illogic associated with this movement is connected
with the fact that its adherents mistakenly believe squats are hard
on the knees and back. Therefore, the thinking is that if the knees
are flexed less there is less stress on these joints. This is not
true.

In actuality, unless one leans greatly forward, there is more stress
on the knees in a half squat or bench squat depth because the
resistance arm relative to the knee joint is at or near its greatest
length, i.e., the moment on the joint is highest.

Leaning forward is also not a viable option in squatting. The weak
link here is the lumbar spine. Like the knee joints with a half
squat, leaning forward increases the moment on the lumbar area.
Keeping the back as vertical as possible is of course the best
technique in squatting, but squatting to a rigid surface places the
discs of the spine between "a rock and a hard place." This is not a
good idea.

One of the principal sources of misinformation in regards to the
perceived value of box squats, especially at the present time, comes
from the power lifting community in the USA. The reader is referred
to the web site of the International Power lifting Federation to
peruse the results of the worlds championships for the past ten
years. You will note that the American champions are very few and
far between, and, apparently, none come from Columbus, Ohio which is
a hotbed of box squat activity....

Donald Lee
12-17-2009, 09:01 PM
Here's Louie Simmons' response:

Response to Bud on the Value of Box Squats:

The first 800 squat was done by Pat Casey in 1970 at the Culver City
Westside.
The largest squat is 1250, by Vlad Alhazov who trained at Westside
Barbell in Columbus, Ohio before making this historical lift. How?
by doing box squats. It also pushed his deadlift up from 860 to 925.
How? By taking his stance out very wide to utilize the stronger hip
muscles that are involved in squatting and pulling of any kind.
Oh, by the way, in Columbus, Ohio we have two women Amy Weisberger,
who squatted 540 at 132 bwt and 590 record at 148 bwt and Laura
Phelps has done 740 at 165 and 770 at 181 bwt and both hold world
records . Remember Bud, these are women.

We hold the 181 world record for men at 905 which is Phil Harrington,
the 220 world record at 1025 lbs. and at 275 ,Chuck Vogelpohl has a
1150 at 264 bwt. We have the only teen to squat 1,000, Dave Hoff at
251 actual weight squatted 1005. We have 14 over 1000 and three over
1100 to go along with 15 men who pull over 800 lbs. We also have five
women who have pulled 500 or more the lightest 148 lbs.

I don't talk about things I don't know, but when it comes to box
squatting there are a lot of experts.
There is one way to box squat, you don't crash on a box, the box is
somewhat below parallel. We're not Bigger Faster Dumber, we are
Westside Barbell.

As far as crashing on the a box, how about the foam box? What's that
you say? We squat on foam about half the time, you know like sitting
on your couch.

You box squat to gain more kinetic energy. Your glutes and hamstrings
are much larger than your feet equaling more mass. When a sprinter's
feet contacts the track he is producing 4 or 5 times bodyweight per
step.We are not sitting on a box at that rate of speed . without
bands the eccentric phase is roughly nine tenths of a second with
bands adding in the overspeed eccentric phase, the time is reduced to
five tenths of a second. Does anyone in their right mind think a box
squat done correctly is more dangerous than crashing down into a full
front squat and bounce out of it? my reasoning is that the world's
best Olympic lifter is 20 to 25 years old the world's best
powerlifters are roughly 40 yrs old.

I have no idea why anyone would listen to an Olympic lifting coach
when I believe they placed 1st man 8th at the Olympics. This ,if you
look at the world ranking by Mike Soong on www.powerliftingwatch.com
and you will find the U.S. holds 7 of the 12 world total records so
please do a little research before you speak.

I squatted 920 at 52 yrs old at 235 bwt. It was the third biggest
that year in the world and 6th all time in 2000.

Why do I bring this up? In 1991, i had a complete rupture of my
patella tendon. I rehabbed it with sled pulling and box squats. I
started on a 17' box and worked my way down to a 10' box. I was full
squatting 500 in 6 months. When you box squat you sit back very far
to the point that the shin is past vertical. This places all the work
on the hamstrings and glutes. I don't put stress on the knees at all.
If you are worried about the quads, do leg squats or commonly known
as belt squats. I got this from the Soviets in 1975. All my methods
come from the eastern block countries. I took all their training
methods and intergraded them into powerlifting. Our Olympic lifter
for some reason has neglected to do the same. When doing Olympic
pulls, the shoulders must remain over the bar as long as possible yet
they squat with the torso erect as Bud suggests but with the body
inclined forward it simulates the exact pulling needed to pull
Olympic pulls. Have you ever thought about that? Bud was talking at
Wake Forest and stated that strength does not matter if from and
speed and technique are equal. If that was true, why wouldn't a 123
lbs. lift what a SHW does?

If you want to jump high, sit on a box and jump to a second higher
box. I have a 18 year old who is 6' 2' and 240 lbs. jump onto a 57
1/2' box.

I recall calling Bud in 1983 for all of his translations. He said but
these are like class books. I said that's exactly what I want. Later
on, I was talking to a group of people about training afterwards and
Bud said you know Lou, that wont work. I replied what do you do with
your book, read them then throw them in the fire? I find it strange
to have to defend myself with box squatting. When my friend from
Eskil was visiting the Polish weight lifting facilities and found box
squatting in their weight lifting journal dating back to 1950. I
would like to thank Bud for the books and how they influence my
training of not only NFL teams but Olympic gold sprinters and too
many to count, world record holders.

In the 1970s, Olympic lifters like Lowe, Nip, Picket, Cole and so on
did both Olympic and powerlifting. That's unheard of today and they
are loosing their absolute strength has killed our Olympic lifting
program. It has been said that Louie Simmons has never produced a
great Olympic lifter. I replied 'That's true, and neither has anyone
else except they are afraid to come here and train.' Bud and all the
rest have an open invitation to come visit me whenever they like.

Louie Simmons

Garrett Smith
12-18-2009, 03:54 AM
I did not like what I perceived wider squatting to do to the imbalances in my hips, but this is likely my fault. I was also turned out, so I wasn't straight ahead.

I would bet Louie would say that people need to squat more than once a week...oh well, there goes CF.

I'd love to see Louie's results with some OL lifters...it is too bad that may never happen.

Brian DeGennaro
12-18-2009, 05:19 AM
I don't know of any Olympic lifter in the world who utilizes anything but front and back squats, with pauses from time to time. Sometimes the foot placement is fooled around with but for what reason I do not know.

Louie has one thing right, American lifters can definitely be stronger, but that is not the only thing that holds us back I think.

Aaron Austin
12-18-2009, 05:58 AM
I'm not a powerlifter but I thought box squats were usefull to the powerlifter because they trained you sit sit back into your gear.

Michael McKenna
12-18-2009, 07:07 AM
Throwers use them, and have for decades. I have a copy of Ulf Timmerman's interviews/ postings on The Ring from 99/2000 and he talks about them. There's talk on The Ring the last couple of months about the "double spinal compression" being bad for you. I've also done box squats, with bands and chains, and to be honest, they were okay; I see a benefit from them for certain sports and for jumping. I did learn to finish hard and fast, but I don't think they should be a staple for Olympic lifters. But throwing them in once in a while won't hurt as an extra squat day or to replace something in the program for, say, six weeks at a time. But I still prefer to stick with Front and Back squats almost exclusively, and I haven't box squatted in six or seven years now. And when I plan my squats into my routines, I plan Fronts, Backs, some Overheads once in a while, and sometimes step-ups or single leg squats as extra leg movements. The box squat isn't in my training stable on a regular basis. Training athletes for other sports, though, I might add it, especially if I were working with an advanced shot putter or discus thrower.

Jay Ashman
12-18-2009, 07:15 AM
Goddamn, I love Louie. Of course PL and OL are two entirely different sports so comparing squat form in one as it works for the other is a moot point.

But its funny to read him rip apart Bud Charigna in that reply, and I do agree with him on one point, it seems that we have forgotten about raw strength and gotten too technical with the lifts.

Brian, can you shed some light on that since you are in the OL world? Don't necessarily speak from your point of view, how do you feel with what he says and its relation to your sport in general?

Dave Van Skike
12-18-2009, 08:09 AM
an unstoppable bombast meets and an immovable arrogance...

marshall white who's a pro strogman her in WA as wellas one other pro SM i know of have both said box squats,(high box squats low or regular and in briefs)have made the biggest difference in building strength for SM.

squatting wide and to a medium box paired and narrow front squats overloaded with chains at the top are currently a staple for me..but i'm a weak squatter. so what do i know. jeezus it's just squatting.

Garrett Smith
12-18-2009, 08:38 AM
Box squats + raw squatting = ?

Good, bad, what? I ain't buying squat briefs.

Brian DeGennaro
12-18-2009, 08:54 AM
The key issue is strength out of the hole. The bottom of the squat is a real weakpoint, and where a lot of missed cleans happen. The bottom of a squat is very easy to lose tension and you have to teach yourself to maintain tension there. Full squats build that strength and timing in the compromised position because heavy cleans will always be met at the bottom.

Regarding strength: yeah I know we ought to strive for technical efficiency (because we all want to be the Pis who can clean more than he can squat) but c'mon, there are light lifters who are squatting more than our heavyweights have. Chakarov and Idalberto Aranda have the most famous squat pictures. Chakarov squatted 270 for a pretty easy looking triple at 90kg and Aranda squatted 290 for a ridiculously easy double at 77. To my knowledge, our own Kendrick Farris squats 255 for a triple at 85 and it looked HARD.

That is my two cents.

Dave Van Skike
12-18-2009, 09:04 AM
Box squats + raw squatting = ?

Good, bad, what? I ain't buying squat briefs.

my experience is that yes, low box squats can really help but no more than a lot of other things. when this subj. comes up at PB there's a lot of variation in responses. one very good raw squatter over there (700 plus) says they work great, lot's of others say they didn't work as advertised. so YMMV. for raw squatting, i think pin squats (bottom up) and pause squats worked as well or better for me. but now i box squat for a totally different reason. i don't expect to see my raw max squat go up much and i don't really care.

wrt gear. i constantly berate everyone i can who lifts in gear, as i berate everyone who calls sumo deadlifting, current training partners, coaches, strangers on the street.....in order to give these unreasonable viewpoints some credibilty, i now squat at least once week in gear and i'll pull sumo every couple weeks....trying new things is important.

Robb Wolf
12-18-2009, 11:05 AM
Since I make up all my stuff just disregard this:
When I PL'd I had the good fortune of training under Rich Wood and Dany Thurman, two world champion PL'rs in the 80's. I also read EVERYTHING I could on the sport and was heavily influenced by Fred Harfield. here is how my week broke down:
Day-1 Monday.
Sqt- Ass to grass, narrow-ish stance, but not "high bar" placement. The loading and volume cycled between body-building reps and got higher intensity, lower volume as a meet approached. 6 weeks from a meet I switched to a wide stance, which is what I used in competition.

Power cleans-Fred Hatfield talked a ton about rate of force development (called it soemthing else...need to look at his Power: A scientific Approach book to get the exact working), I did 1's and 2's with weights ranging from 100kg-125kg. This makes me want to cry writing this...I have fallen so far.

Some body-building assistance work like curls, tricep extensions etc.

Day-2 Wed
Bench- pretty narrow grip, between sets of bench I did some nicky-nacker abb/low back work as my rest periods were 5 minutes. As I neared a meet I widened out my grip to my competition grip Easier on my shoulders, even at 18-20 YO.

DL assistance-Power rack work on my sticking point(s). Id set a pin to as close to where I stalled on the DL as I could, then loaded way mor weight than I could pull. Got tight and trid to move that thing for about 6 seconds. I only did about 4-6 rounds of that, again with long rest periods.

Heavy back and bench accessory work: chins, rows, incline bench, press. Body-building rep schemes, this stuff got dropped 3-4 weeks from a meet.

Day 3 Friday
DL- Same drill as sqt, narrow pulls most of the time, wider near a meet.

I think within the confines of PL'ing the wide stance is great. it shortens the travel of the load. I think a wide stance for OL seriously fudge your game up. Some dead-stop back or front squats at 40-50%RM for rate of force development...might be interesting.

A few observations:
1-I'm surprised by how "conjugate" my training was then. No bands or chains obviously, but if you are not wearing gear, not really an issue.

2-I'm always tickled by PL'ing folks who insist the US OL'er are weak. that is not the issue. The reason US PL'rs compete on par with other word powers is PL'ing is not particularly drug tested as compared to OL, especially in the US.

3-Because of the increased technicality of OL more of one's training must be specific to OL. OL for supplement to another sport...different story, we have some significant latitude.

it's my plan to get back into PL and old dude BJJ. 181 for PLg for 175 for jits. God help me. I'll be using a more moderate stance in competition as it is easier on the hips and a bib more athletic.

Alex Bond
12-18-2009, 12:06 PM
The response I think of when I hear "US Oly lifters aren't strong enough" is, so what do you want them to do? I bet Louie or Rippetoe would say, box squats or low bar back squats and deadlifts, respectively. But would that really help? Shane Hamman back squatted 1008#, albeit in gear, and when he got his ass toasted at the Olympics, they asked him after the meet "What was the difference between you and the gold medal?", and he replied "They were stronger than me." Stronger than a 1008# back squatter? It seems to me that if strength is indeed the issue, back squats are not the solution, as a 1008# back squat won't get you on the podium. Front squats are the solution. Oly lifting is a quad dominant sport, and maybe box/low bar back squats don't carry over all that well. We've all seen that short video of Reza front squatting 617# for an easy double, will back squatting get you that?

I'm weak as shit, but this holds in my experience as well. I did SS for a while, low bar back squats and everything. I decided I wanted to try olympic lifting for a while, and it just wasn't clicking. I couldn't do anything without leaning way far forward. It took quite a while until I developed the quad strength to be upright throughout the lift. That can't be developed by anything but front squats, in my experience.

I can't come up with a link for this right now, but I recall reading a discussion on IGX in one of the more tame threads about one of Louie's articles about how Oly lifters need to be stronger. Sig, who trains guys who have spent a lot of time at the OTC, said that when his lifters went to the OTC, they did tons of squatting and pulls, and they got a lot stronger, but their lifts didn't go up.

Maybe strength is indeed the issue (though I think the drugs and the potential lifters playing in the NFL instead are bigger ones), but if it is, I don't know that Louie's solution would solve it. Front squat 617# for an easy double, then let's see if that might help.

Yuen Sohn
12-18-2009, 12:24 PM
http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=207794

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-18-2009, 01:02 PM
My two cents worth on this topic.

I'm getting older. I, ocassionally, "tweak" a knee. When that happens, do I stop training - no, I train around it. I convert my dynamic movemetns from full to power. And Box squatting is how I can continue to train while I'm letting that knee heal up. I vary the stance from set to set. Just as I do when I do my regular back and front squats. I do this because I'm still very much a novice with OL and I never land the same way twice.

I powerlifted when I was younger and I train pretty darn heavy on squats and pulls. Ever since my weight training has been focused toward OL, I've found it very difficult to do a ultra wide stance (ala West Side in the Monolift) holding the bar in a low bar fashion.

I know Louie. I've known him for over 20 years. Met him when I was still a teenager and competing in Powerlifting. He's a great coach. He's very intelligent. He knows his athletes. Could he produce a champion OL - unlikley. Too many technical issues that need the watchful eyes and instruction of a Victor Gallego, Leo Totten, or David Miler.

Now, too me, the sport of powerlifting does not have the technical nuances of OL. But it does require more brute strength.

One of the things I don't like about comparing today's lifters to lifters during the 70s is that the 70s lifters were all juicers with access to the same juice. As time went on, the US got stricter with it's legislation and the quality available to athletes lessened. Further, the strength athletes began to focus or specialize instead of spreading themselves between disciplines. Further, Bodybuilding and "ego" training took off and those that dropped weights were often scuttled out the door. When that happened, the black market for juice exploded, but OLers weren't part of that "gym" craze - because dropping weights was prohibited.

I say, in time, the US will become competitive in OL lifting. It will take some time, but it will happen as crossfit gyms and strength coaches in high schools and colleges re-introduce OL to main stream athletes. Simply give it time.

All the best,
Arden

Jay Ashman
12-18-2009, 01:22 PM
Robb, that is a damn solid PL template and one I have seen used a lot with slight modifications.

I'm not sure how strong US Oly lifters are compared to the rest of the world, but it would seem that we have some ways to go, and I do think that the lifters need to be stronger in the US, whether westside or just plain lifting more heavy squats is the answer, who knows, I am not an Oly coach so I can't tell anybody what is right or what way works the best for Oly lifting.

But also, Alex, Shane's 1008# wasn't ass to grass like you need when you do an Oly Lift. Gear, low bar, going to parallel and not below... those are all factors that play into the fact that maybe he does need to get stronger, especially in the hole.

Brian DeGennaro
12-18-2009, 01:31 PM
You also have to take into account that no matter what, we don't put the time into lifting like other countries. Training twice a day,nearly every day, seems to be average for Bulgarians, Chinese, Polish, Russian. I think twice a day is the bare minimum they are training. These guys put a ton of work into their sport.

Other things to consider is many of our lifters are not as "fast" as the winners.

Jay Ashman
12-18-2009, 01:45 PM
Brian that is because for many lifters over in those countries they are paid to lift, not that way in America necessarily. They have the time to devote their lives to being in the gym 4-5 hours a day training.

Brian DeGennaro
12-18-2009, 01:47 PM
Exactly my point. I've spoken to some lifters, some coaches, they could never DREAM of having their lifters do the kind of workload others do. Goes to show you how high some people are aiming too.

Arien Malec
12-18-2009, 01:49 PM
I say, in time, the US will become competitive in OL lifting. It will take some time, but it will happen as crossfit gyms and strength coaches in high schools and colleges re-introduce OL to main stream athletes. Simply give it time.

I think CF helps awareness of Oly lifting (but awareness is much broader) but won't materially help competitiveness. Hassle Free Barbell is the right model - if you've read the last three articles in Milo, it's impressive stuff. Get oly lifting integrated into the sports programs at a high school level, require competition, co-opt, don't compete with the football program, and change high school kids' lives.

Jay Ashman
12-18-2009, 01:49 PM
Exactly my point. I've spoken to some lifters, some coaches, they could never DREAM of having their lifters do the kind of workload others do. Goes to show you how high some people are aiming too.
I'm sure they would love that, it would skyrocket our nation in Oly Lifting success for sure. But no, all the sponsorship dollars are reserved for "other sports"...

Alex Bond
12-18-2009, 02:00 PM
But also, Alex, Shane's 1008# wasn't ass to grass like you need when you do an Oly Lift. Gear, low bar, going to parallel and not below... those are all factors that play into the fact that maybe he does need to get stronger, especially in the hole.

What you just said is my point exactly. Louie says he'd make oly lifters stronger with a parallel box squat, I've heard Rippetoe talk about how oly lifters would be better served getting stronger doing parallel low bar back squats as opposed to A2G high bars. But if strength is indeed the problem, their solution (parallel low bar back squats) wouldn't solve it, since a guy with a very big low bar back squat wasn't strong enough. If strength is the problem (it isn't, drugs and the NFL are), low bar back squatting won't solve it, front squatting is more likely to.

Brian DeGennaro
12-18-2009, 02:31 PM
I think the powerlifters failed to look outside of the US with making our lifters better. Yes, doing box/low bar squats MAY make that lifter the best US lifter...but they would still place only 12th...20th...27th...bomb out at the Olympics.

Jay Ashman
12-18-2009, 02:52 PM
What you just said is my point exactly. Louie says he'd make oly lifters stronger with a parallel box squat, I've heard Rippetoe talk about how oly lifters would be better served getting stronger doing parallel low bar back squats as opposed to A2G high bars. But if strength is indeed the problem, their solution (parallel low bar back squats) wouldn't solve it, since a guy with a very big low bar back squat wasn't strong enough. If strength is the problem (it isn't, drugs and the NFL are), low bar back squatting won't solve it, front squatting is more likely to.

exactly, because coming off a box when at parallel is completely different when a 400# bar is crushing you down into a front squat position so deep your ballbag is on your heels.

Brian DeGennaro
12-18-2009, 03:57 PM
The other thing people forget is that squats down the way they were originally done and are done today by lifters, carries over to the lifts and the FS. As Louie states himself, box squats and wide squats make your deadlift bigger...but weightlifters don't give a damn about their deadlift.

I think I remember Glenn referencing Kyle Gulledge and Donnie Shankle in this. Here is the exact quote from the CF message boards:

"Donny Shankle and Kyle Gulledge are two of the strongest athletes I ever had the priveledge to coach or call friends. They are also two of the most "imbalanced" individuals I ever coached when it came to relative quad strength and hamstring/posterior chain strength. Here is how they differed.

First, when you look at them, the one thing you immedietly notice about Donny is that he had huge quads. I mean it was visibly evident that the guy had huge legs that were mostly quadricep, small hips, thin waist, etc. You could tell he was Quad dominant by looking at him.

Kyle, even though he squatted 964lbs in powerlifting competition and over 700lbs "raw" did not have excessively big legs, did not look overly impressive in shorts. He did have the adductor mass, and upper hamstring and glute development that is readily apparant if you have a singlet on, but looking at his quads around the knee, it was nothing special.

Here are some performance differences. Keep in mind Donny usually weighted around 220lbs to 230lbs, Kyle was more like 260lbs.

Donny could front squat 500+ pounds for reps, if he missed, he usually sunk back into the hole and dumped from the bottom. Hes back squat was MAYBEE 600lbs at the time period I am talking about... the time period when they were training together and directly comparable.

Kyle could not front squat 500lbs, and when he missed during the attempt, he missed because in trying to get up, he had kicked his hips so bar back and leaned so far over that the bar dropped off his chest. At this time, he could squat "raw" or belt only, over 700lbs, and had done 964lbs in a powerlifting competition.

Kyles best clean was 418lbs. Donnys at this time was 440lbs. Donny had never, at this time, been able to deadlift much over 500lbs. (I think at a later date he did 600lbs). Kyle was the first teenager in history to go over 800 in the deadlift, doing 830 as a 19 year old. He was able to do 750lbs while concentrating on the OL lifts, and doing no steady deadlift training.

When you watched Kyle pull, he started with the hips fairly high, and generated a lot of speed off the ground... He was using his posterior chain to lift the bar... with not so much on the second pull. When you watch Donny pull, his hips start quite low, the bar comes off the ground slowly, and the second pull is where he gets most of his pull from. You can tell by watching him lift the bar that his is lifting it in such a way as to use his quads all he can."

Nail in coffin? I think so.

Dave Van Skike
12-18-2009, 04:00 PM
There are only 2 political discussion more retarded than OL vs. PL.

1) discussions about where the bar goes on your back and
2)discussions about where to put your feet.

put the bar where you want, put your feet where they go and squat more.

Jay Ashman
12-18-2009, 04:10 PM
There are only 2 political discussion more retarded than OL vs. PL.

1) discussions about where the bar goes on your back and
2)discussions about where to put your feet.

put the bar where you want, put your feet where they go and squat more.

Dave, that is all great if you are just a guy who is lifting for general purposes, but if you are competing in a sport like PL or OL, you kinda have to figure out which one is best to use for your needs.

And let me clarify, that just because a guy does the occasional C&J does NOT make him an Oly Lifter, it means he does it occasionally, so when I see that debate by a guy who is cleaning and jerking 150# and calling himself an oly lifter, I almost shit myself and want to yell "JUST SQUAT MORE!!!!!!!"

Jay Ashman
12-18-2009, 04:13 PM
Brian, a quick fix (and maybe something for all CrossFitters and people who Oly lift on occasion and not as a sport) is to get a big squat using any method you desire and do plenty of proper, deep front squats as well. That means squatting twice a week at least. Which I advocate for my clients and in my programming anyway.

Brian DeGennaro
12-18-2009, 04:20 PM
I think everything should be cycled out routinely (every 6 weeks) if you are a generalist or a Crossfitter. When I was doing track and gymnastics in high school, I varied the stances on squats as well as the squats used, same with deadlifts. It was a lot of fun, showed me what weaknesses I do and do not have.

Jay Ashman
12-18-2009, 04:24 PM
when it comes to back squat, you are probably right, now I am in the middle of a low bar cycle and its working out for me great for me and my current needs. I'll probably do some high bar work after this is over for variety. Can't hurt at all...

Dave Van Skike
12-18-2009, 04:30 PM
Dave, that is all great if you are just a guy who is lifting for general purposes, but if you are competing in a sport like PL or OL, you kinda have to figure out which one is best to use for your needs.

And let me clarify, that just because a guy does the occasional C&J does NOT make him an Oly Lifter, it means he does it occasionally, so when I see that debate by a guy who is cleaning and jerking 150# and calling himself an oly lifter, I almost shit myself and want to yell "JUST SQUAT MORE!!!!!!!"

i gently suggest that no one figures it out from reading the interweb.

i believe in the first person narrative.tell me what you did or what you saw done and why you think it worked or didn't.

nearly everyhting else is lies, repeated lies or exagerrated political positioning.

squat politics are sofa king we todd ed.

Brandon Oto
12-18-2009, 07:36 PM
edit: I'm dumb, ignore