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Steve Shafley
02-08-2007, 08:17 PM
I thought they are pretty interesting and illustrate the demoed lifts well, except the deadlift.

All of the deadlifts in the Crossfit deadlift video showed extremely light weights.

That's fine, but if you are programming stuff like "Deadlift: 5-5-5-3-3-3-1-1-1" then you are going to see a complete and utter breakdown in this kind of form.

A quick search on YouTube reveals a lot of competitive PL deadlifts, and you'll see very few of them, if any, that look like that perfect "clean" style deadlift on the CF video.

Mike ODonnell
02-08-2007, 08:22 PM
Wow.....there was one tall lady in there.....the heavy DL was not built for tall people.

Jesse Woody
02-09-2007, 05:22 AM
A quick search on YouTube reveals a lot of competitive PL deadlifts, and you'll see very few of them, if any, that look like that perfect "clean" style deadlift on the CF video.

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at...are you saying that since people striving for competitive totals have a breakdown in form that it would be better to give that as a demonstration for the movement? I've always held my clients to a very high level of proper form, especially during maximum efforts. If any of those individual points begins to deteriorate the lift stops and we drop weight until we fix it. The only place where my own deadlift changes when I get near maximal weights is I use a switch-grip, but otherwise the movement remains the same.

Jonas Lind
02-09-2007, 05:44 AM
Hmm. I actually think this is interesting. I have (almost) never seen anyone lift an extreme amount of weight (near max)with the form used in the CF video. The strong PL's "all" look like they are straightening or rounding their backs.
Myself, I like to use the form in the video because my lower back does not hurt the day after. So, it must be something to strive for, no? Even if I can't lift as much using it. (When I go heavy my back seems to straighten out too, wanting to round out.)

Whats the deal with this? Back arched, straight or rounded? Is it depending on bodytype? Enlighten me!

Steve Shafley
02-09-2007, 06:15 AM
If you look at many competitive deadlifts, you'll see that the lower back, or lumbar region is still neutral, but there's a rounding of the upper back.

This is innocuous when it occurs, and if the lifter is aware of it, and it also serves to shorten the ROM somewhat.

I think Rippetoe's treatise on proper deadlift form nails it, that can be found in the CFJ section of the website. Thats something we should all strive for even in maximal lifts. However, if you look at the best in the world, this isn't how it goes.

This will occur even when the best form pullers, i.e. Olympic lifters, pull a maximal deadlift. You will see how their form changes from the one optimal for OLs to one similar to the competitive PL form.

It's ludicrious to hold up a 95-135# deadlift as a proper demonstration of form for ALL deadlifts. It doesn't happen that way in real life.

Mike O'Donnell had a great point...some people aren't well suited for a lift.

And, when they talk about "health lift" way back in YE OLDE DAYES OF IRONE LORE, they are talking about a handful of people, most of whom were very well suited for lifting in general who were doing it. The "deadlift" as show in the video isn't "in our genes". That's la goofy statement. What we've done evolutionarily is bend over and pick things up. These things very rarely had handles, or were balanced on each side. We instinctually try to get our hands under it, and to get the object as close to our body as possible. That's the primal movement pattern.

Jesse, It'd be very educational for everyone if you filmed a deadlift workout where you hit a maximal deadlift and toss it up on YouTube. I'm sure that's something everyone would appreciate seeing. I've got some there, and if people want to comment about my shitty form, portruding gut, or frequent use of the word "um", feel free to do so.

And, I'm not saying maintaining form is bad. If you have the trigger that you've reached your max when you lose that form, then that's probably a valuable thing, especially for those with tricky backs, given that you are using the clean grip deadlift as a training movement, and not as a competitive lift. However, that trigger almost always needs to come from an external observer, and not the person performing the lift.

Jesse Woody
02-09-2007, 07:21 AM
Steve, sounds like a plan. I totally agree about a shift towards neutral/flat as being relatively innocuous, but only in highly trained individuals who have an awareness of the degree of difference between this position and one that could be potentially harmful. Before somebody reaches that point, I feel it more-responsible to stop them short of their "potential" for the sake of reinforcing the most-safe form I can possibly teach them.

You know, I also happened to think, perhaps even if a deadlift performed with a lighter weight isn't necessarily an exact demonstration of the form that will be present with higher loads, if one strives for this form while lifting heavier weights they will be less likely to injure themselves. That is, if you shoot for neutral lower back, chest up, shoulders back, your musculature will function more effectively as a support structure. Just a thought.

Steve Shafley
02-09-2007, 08:19 AM
I don't think I'm refuting that.

Greg Everett
02-09-2007, 08:32 AM
I'm certainly not one to defend CF exercise demos--I've had beefs with lots of them. I agree with pretty much everything said to this point--maximal, particularly competitive, deadlifts will not resemble this ideal form. However, I would absolutely say that in training the typical client (i.e. not competitive lifters), there's no need to take a DL or any other lift beyond the point at which that ideal form is compromised. So really what you're willing to accept in terms of form depends entirely on the lifter in question.

Greg Everett
02-09-2007, 08:33 AM
PS - Steve. Don't think I didn't notice your new signature. Maybe you should run for governor instead.

Jonas Lind
02-09-2007, 08:52 AM
Then again. If you are going to demonstrate DL's in this manner(Video) to the "unknown" masses, its probably a good idea to utilize good form.

Steve Shafley
02-09-2007, 09:13 AM
Normally my sig is a link to the P&B, after reading the Lord Humungous' bid for governor, I found it irresistible.

Steve Shafley
02-09-2007, 09:20 AM
The prevalence of bad deadlift videos is illustrated remarkably well by those two doofuses from bodybuilding.com who made an instructional video for the deadlift.

I was both agast and highly amused while watching this.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/liftrite2.htm

This is a big waste of your time, so be forewarned.

Allen Yeh
02-09-2007, 09:48 AM
The prevalence of bad deadlift videos is illustrated remarkably well by those two doofuses from bodybuilding.com who made an instructional video for the deadlift.

I was both agast and highly amused while watching this.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/liftrite2.htm

This is a big waste of your time, so be forewarned.

holy cow these 2 guys are really irritating and the video is badly edited.

Ok I commented before I watched all of video #2....even worse than number 1. This is on bodybuilding.com for instructional purposes????

Dave Van Skike
02-09-2007, 09:51 AM
It woudl be a lot more honest to say that round back stone lifting, strongman style, rounded back off the floor up to a zercher type position and then braced on the top of the thighs from a partial squat is the only "lifitng" in our DNA.

Mike ODonnell
02-09-2007, 11:53 AM
Rip had a picture up there once long ago showing 2 body types and the starting position for each....both extremely different...and then went into a long explanation of lever length, etc.....basically some have better builds for the DL...some do not....Me...tall....small joints....not the man who was meant to put the canon ball in the canon....however I can skate like the wind...which basically serves to no known evolutionary purpose other than an artic messenger.....

Great kickbacks in the video...I knew my form was off....Ummmmmmm.....yeah...

Elliot Royce
02-09-2007, 12:48 PM
Two points:

a) As someone who has really long femurs, I use a trap deadlift bar. If it helps me to maintain good form, who's to quibble?

b) I also have wondered about the CF 21-15-9 135lb power cleans or the like. I guess I'm a wimp because I can't maintain perfect form with that number of reps done right away. Since I'm trying to learn the O lifts and possibly do a masters' meet at some point, I'm careful about blowing my technique to h-lll with 45 imperfect reps. I also think it's a recipe for rotator cuff tendonitis.

Jesse Woody
02-09-2007, 01:43 PM
I don't think I'm refuting that.

Then that's where I misunderstood you. I thought you were originally criticizing the videos for showing perfect form, when perfect form becomes slightly subjective at higher loads. My only point was that perfect form should be the benchmark, no matter what the effort, especially when demonstrating movements to a widely unknown audience, as Allen pointed out.

Ron Nelson
02-10-2007, 12:23 PM
Two points:

a) As someone who has really long femurs, I use a trap deadlift bar. If it helps me to maintain good form, who's to quibble?


Being 6'3" and all legs, I'm ill suited for DL's and fast motorcycles. What I've found helpful is using, and I'm not kidding here, the Hammer Strength seated shrug contraption. It has two sets of handles, high and low, and is plate loaded at the fulcrum, so you are lifting the weight, not half of it. I used it to bring my DL back from the dead (old max was 225# after I hurt my back; went up to 270 after I retrained). Now, I mix it in to finish off a set or warm up the DL.

What I'm saying is this; it approximates the trap bar as well as anything when you don't have a trap bar.

As for the videos on CF: I like the multi screen approach to demonstrating movements. Worked for the clean, thrustrer, and box jumps.

OK, I just watched the video and had two comments: 1. the audio was terrible. I couldn't hear half of what was said, but what I could hear was somewhat off of what I was seeing. 2. I liked seeing taller people using the form I use; almost straight legged just to get down to the floor. Again, I like the split-screen.

Not sure what Shaf means about the amount of weight used.

Elliot Royce
02-10-2007, 12:41 PM
Ron:

At 6'3" myself I understand tho I did use to ride a Ducati 748 around the track pretty fast. The long legs came in handy when putting my knee down and once or twice I'd swear I saved the bike by pushing up with the knee. Still, I looked like one of the circle clowns riding the really small bike. Most of those cool racer types stand about 5'8" with a few exceptions.

Nick Cummings
02-11-2007, 09:44 AM
Are you guys kidding? Tall guys are built to deadlift. We (relatively) suffer a bit in the squat. Pulls are where it is at for tall guys. Also, regarding the CF videos, if you have beef with the comentary more power to you. There is nothing wrong with the form displayed in those videos and I failed to notice where they claimed those were max effort lifts.

Chris Forbis
02-11-2007, 11:09 AM
My experience follows what Nick said.

Dave Van Skike
02-11-2007, 11:57 AM
Bar too far out, early hip rising, ass not far enough back, weird shoulder rolling at lockout, plus head craning and shoulder peering over.

Not represented as max efforts but add load to most of those examples and you've got some real problems. That said, it's pretty hard to demo a light DL because unless you've got enough on the bar to counter BW, it just looks weird.

Jonas Lind
02-11-2007, 12:18 PM
I'll just add that I really like the videos. I think they serve not only as instructional, but inspirational as well. I hope they keep at it every day.
Deadlifts seems to be one of the harder excercises to demonstrate on video though.

Steve Shafley
02-11-2007, 01:37 PM
OK, I think I've figured out my biggest concern.

I pull a damn deadlift in the gym. A max deadlift.

Some joker who's watched the XF deadlift vid will be compelled to tell me that my form was wrong, and I'm going to hurt myself or something like this.

I don't know why this happens, but it's almost a urban myth. Once I did a zercher squat from the pins with ~450, and this kid comes up to me and says "I think you're supposed to use your hands when you do that."

Nick Cummings
02-11-2007, 03:05 PM
I view the deadlifts in the CF video as "Rippetoe's form" if you will. I say this because they closely resemble what he describes in his book starting strength. In the past I have found that I tend to do better with a more stiff legged approach once I get to higher weights. I have found that since doing them how he suggests that I feel I have more pull off the floor, I have not maxed recently. For sake of discussion, how do your deadlifts differ Steve?

Mike ODonnell
02-11-2007, 03:57 PM
Are you guys kidding? Tall guys are built to deadlift. We (relatively) suffer a bit in the squat. Pulls are where it is at for tall guys.

How does pulling a weight a farther distance than a smaller person make it easier? Plus a longer legs-trunk length ratio will require a different style of lift than someone who is smaller.

I do agree though that I would like to see a heavy DL form (compared to 115lbs on a bar) as that is real life application for me....not doing sets of 21....I stay in the rep ranges of 3-5, so that is where I live.

Ron Nelson
02-11-2007, 04:11 PM
Tell it MOD.

I squatted today, and had a much better time than when I DL. Again, my form tends to be with less bend in the leg than the shorter lifter.

Nick Cummings
02-11-2007, 04:23 PM
Mike, biomechanically I have no idea why. Possibley due to better leverage. I am 6'3" and find the deadlift to be my strongest lift. I also train with five people over 6' two of which find the deadlift to be one of their stronger lifts. That answer might not impress you but my good friend Dave Tate says, "Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers." http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459744

Dave Van Skike
02-11-2007, 05:05 PM
Mike, biomechanically I have no idea why. Possibley due to better leverage. I am 6'3" and find the deadlift to be my strongest lift. I also train with five people over 6' two of which find the deadlift to be one of their stronger lifts. That answer might not impress you but my good friend Dave Tate says, "Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers." http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459744

Lever length.

Taller people tend to be proportionally longer limbed with only a small percentage of additional height from trunk length.

Long femurs-short trunk= sick leverage for DL, crap leverage for squat.
even dead average height guy with longish legs and arms are well suited to DL.

Robb Wolf
02-11-2007, 06:37 PM
Stealing the thread a bit...and showing my obvious bias towards Ol'rs. Case in point:Mikhail Koklyaev (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65jovqRDaDs&mode=related&search=) 6'4"...I think that is taller than everyone moaning about their lever disadvantages. In this video we see him pull almost 900lbs on the DL. Absolutely no back round. He does use some straps...not too worried about that. +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65jovqRDaDs

I'm kinda late to the thread but I think that flat back, unrounded form is both possible and highly desirable. Also agree that rounded back lifting has its developmental purpose.

Not a fan of the trap bar DL. Turns a posterior chain movement into more quad work IMO.

Jonas Lind
02-12-2007, 03:29 AM
That is a beautiful lift.

Mike ODonnell
02-12-2007, 06:48 AM
Case in point:Mikhail Koklyaev (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65jovqRDaDs&mode=related&search=) 6'4"...I think that is taller than everyone moaning about their lever disadvantages. In this video we see him pull almost 900lbs on the DL.

ok now I want to complain I am not tall enough after seeing that video....damn....

I do agree the trap bar is more a squat movement than a DL pull.

Allen Yeh
02-12-2007, 09:11 AM
Wow nice video.

150 kg muscle snatch....I couldn't get that amount of weight overhead at all. Sheesh.

Elliot Royce
02-12-2007, 10:38 AM
I'm kinda late to the thread but I think that flat back, unrounded form is both possible and highly desirable. Also agree that rounded back lifting has its developmental purpose.

Not a fan of the trap bar DL. Turns a posterior chain movement into more quad work IMO.

Unless one is anally competitive (or a powerlifter) I suppose it really doesn't matter whether my lever advantage at 6'3" and very long femurs is better or worse than someone else. However, just for the academics of it, it would seem to me that a longer lever length will require more effort but will produce more force. As Mike points out, the lever is travelling through a much longer arc than a shorter one. In effect, taller lifters are stronger given the same weight lifted because they are lifting the weight through the greater distance (they are producing more force). Is this not correct (I'm not an engineer)?

As for the trap bar, it's an accommodation to allow me to keep a flat back. I'm getting better in flexibility but not quite there yet. And I certainly feel my glutes on every lift I do. If you don't need a trap bar to get a level back, then I agree completely, why bother?

Ron Nelson
02-12-2007, 11:02 AM
OK, I'm going out on a limb here, but bear with my inexperience and take it as my conclusions about me. I have a feeling that most of the complaints from us "tall" lifters (6'3" and up) come from a lack of foundation strength in our mid-section. Again, maybe this is just me, but my deadlift used to kill my back. That was until I tried out Rippetoe's suggestions on bar placement, and stepped up in my assistant lifts (RDL's, good mornings, rack pulls). Also, using the God-forsaken Hammer Strength shrug as a DL trainer upped my bar DL.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: we tall lifters do have an advantage if we use our long, monkey arms to get down to the bar. We just need to be strong in the middle to build the adequate support pressure to get the pull all the way up. So, in retrospect, maybe we are better pullers than I first thought.

By the way, my max DL is about 50lbs more than my max squat. Sad, I know.

Elliot Royce
02-12-2007, 11:11 AM
Fair point, Ron. One thing my O lifting coach is working on with me is scapular retraction and keeping that hard across the back as I lift. Over the years I've learned to use my long arms (36") to reach for things rather than moving the body. The consequence is that I overuse my arms rather than the strong back muscles. What he has me doing now is to do a T stretch and then drop the arms directly down to the side, then bend over at the waist to the bar. That helps to prevent the curl the shoulders approach I had before.

Actually for me, my max deadlift is like 100lbs above my squat, but that only goes to show how low both are.

Greg Everett
02-12-2007, 12:56 PM
if you're using a high-hipped DL (as you should if you have long legs), DLing won't be too bad--that relatively short torso means a smaller mechanical disadvantage for the muscles moving it.

the tall people = tough squats and DL line of thinking is focused on those long legs. first, the long legs make getting into what most people would condsider a proper DL starting position pretty much impossible--the knees have to be pushed way over the bar to get the hips low and chest up--but to move the bar, the knees must come back, therefore the hips must rise, therefore that starting position is pointless. if you're ok with something closer to a stiff-legged DL (which you should be), then DLing will be fine.

squatting with long legs is just going to suck no matter how you do it, though. longer bones means the muscles moving them are operating under greater mechanical disadvantage. the better mechanics of shorter lifters is primarily responsible for their ability to far outlift their taller counterparts relative to bodyweight. same reason gymnasts tend to be short--shorter levers = less mechanical disadvantage.

Eva Claire Synkowski
02-12-2007, 02:14 PM
squatting with long legs is just going to suck no matter how you do it, though.

you said it. granted - im still hampered by lack of flexibility, but i jerk more than i back squat. (yes, i know thats pathetic)

and im all about the stiff-legged dl - only way i can dl pain free.

Elliot Royce
02-12-2007, 02:25 PM
well, it's not all bad, right? Unless your end product is a DL or a squat, the taller lifter should in many cases get the advantage in the end. Take crew, basketball or hockey. Long lever arms....tough for the exercise....but loads more extension in the sport movement, no?

Eva Claire Synkowski
02-12-2007, 02:36 PM
Take crew, basketball or hockey. Long lever arms....tough for the exercise....but loads more extension in the sport movement, no?

no, youre right. being tall isnt fun in the gym, but its good on the golf course.....

Chris Forbis
02-12-2007, 03:36 PM
no, youre right. being tall isnt fun in the gym, but its good on the golf course.....

...and in most facets of life. That I've found, at least.

Ron Nelson
02-12-2007, 04:15 PM
Good post, Greg.

My middle name should have been "can you get this for me."

Also, people with 8' ceilings: Do not install ceiling fans in the middle of the room. Please place them over tables only.

Thank you.

Allison Barns
02-12-2007, 04:35 PM
[QUOTE=Ron Nelson;4633]OK, I'm going out on a limb here, ...../QUOTE]

Ron, you crack me up! From what you said, you're going out on a LONG limb! :D

(At 5' 11" I am actually feeling short amongst all of you!)

Ron Nelson
02-12-2007, 05:38 PM
Allison, I assure you any pun was unintentional. In other words, I really have to work at the funny.

My daughter, Alison, is only 4'2". Of course, she's only 7. My 12 year old is 5'8" and rising. I'd love for her to top out at 5'11" or even 6ft.

Robb Wolf
02-12-2007, 05:38 PM
[quote=Ron Nelson;4633]OK, I'm going out on a limb here, ...../QUOTE]

Ron, you crack me up! From what you said, you're going out on a LONG limb! :D

(At 5' 11" I am actually feeling short amongst all of you!)

Maybe I'm just pissed I'm 5'9"?

Ron Nelson
02-12-2007, 05:39 PM
[quote=Allison Barns;4657]

Maybe I'm just pissed I'm 5'9"?

Did you guys hear something coming from down there?

Ken Urakawa
02-12-2007, 07:25 PM
I got your back, Robb--I was just going to post something about how I never seem to have a problem getting into deadlifting position.


Ken
*5'6+, 5'7+ w/O-Lifting shoes*

Mike ODonnell
02-12-2007, 07:31 PM
Maybe I'm just pissed I'm 5'9"?

Who the hell just punched me in the knee cap????

Allison Barns
02-12-2007, 09:48 PM
Allison, I assure you any pun was unintentional. In other words, I really have to work at the funny.

My daughter, Alison, is only 4'2". Of course, she's only 7. My 12 year old is 5'8" and rising. I'd love for her to top out at 5'11" or even 6ft.

Well, it was a pretty good almost-water-through-the-nose moment for me...but my brain seems to seek such things out.

Nice name for your younger daughter. And there's hope for your older daughter! I was 5'8" at age 12 too! I towered over all the kids and a few teachers too! :D I wanted to get to 6' but, alas, it was not to be...

Allen Yeh
02-13-2007, 03:58 AM
Maybe I'm just pissed I'm 5'9"?


Ditto....

Mike ODonnell
02-13-2007, 05:35 AM
*5'6+, 5'7+ w/O-Lifting shoes*

couldn't help but just think this when I read that:

"Playing for the Lakers....Irwin Fletcher....He's 6'3"...6'9" with the Afro"
Fletch

Eva Claire Synkowski
02-13-2007, 05:42 AM
so greg - or others - ive been accused of extending my legs too much pre double knee bend for the snatch....isn't this the way its going to be for the tall, longer-legs-than-torso-folk? there is no other way to get the bar off the floor, correct?

Mike ODonnell
02-13-2007, 05:56 AM
found this good explanation of lever length and DL positioning by Rip
http://www.crossfit.com/journal/2006/11/a_new_rather_long_analysis_of.html

Ron Nelson
02-20-2007, 08:52 AM
Allow me to go "Frankenstein" on this thread and resurrect it.

The recent CF videos have once again featured Annie Sakimoto as the ideal for many movements. I have to give my props to CFSC for getting her back in after her maternity leave. She is nothing short of "wow."

Disclaimer: As rush chairman for the Annie Sakimoto Fan Club, my opinion may have obvious bias. We are having a rush mixer soon; watch for details.

Mike ODonnell
02-20-2007, 09:09 AM
I'm guessing Ron has a crush.....who knew?? "Rush Chairman"....oh dear...that brings back so many memories...or lack thereof....

As for the recent DL vids....I like the all women approach myself being a sexist man pig....but I would advise that the one girl not be chewing gum while doing the lift....doesn't give the perspective of it being a hard lift she is doing....as it probably wasn't....

Scott Kustes
02-20-2007, 11:18 AM
Maybe I'm just pissed I'm 5'9"?
Ahh yeah, I'm a good 1/2" taller than Robb! Now to find something else that I can beat him at. *wanders off to ponder the impossible question for a few weeks*

Robb Wolf
02-20-2007, 11:41 AM
Ahh yeah, I'm a good 1/2" taller than Robb! Now to find something else that I can beat him at. *wanders off to ponder the impossible question for a few weeks*

Heh...I have grade 1 seperated left shoulder from helping Glen get ready for his MMA bout...you could wax my fanny at ANYTHING!

Ron-

You may have to duke it out with Hacklemen for top Annie Sakamoto fan...no offense, but I'm afraid you are a dead man...

Ron Nelson
02-20-2007, 11:49 AM
Crush you say? Never. Crushes are for schoolboys and teen pop stars.

I have a healthy respect for her athletic prowess. The fact that I watch her videos on a constant loop changes nothing.
I met Annie at a CF seminar two years ago. She is really nice and very fit (I had the honor of doing Tabata B2B squats next to her. . .I looked really weak).

She's also half my height.

I'm Ron Nelson, Rush Chairman; damn glad to meet you.

Ron Nelson
02-20-2007, 11:52 AM
Heh...I have grade 1 seperated left shoulder from helping Glen get ready for his MMA bout...you could wax my fanny at ANYTHING!

Ron-

You may have to duke it out with Hacklemen for top Annie Sakamoto fan...no offense, but I'm afraid you are a dead man...

That's why he's the president of the club by default. He ran unapposed and made The Iceman Sgt. at Arms.

I was relegated to Rush Chairman when I found out there was no treasury to be the treasurer of. I've put way too much thought into this little fantasy world.

Yael Grauer
02-20-2007, 12:13 PM
Heh...I have grade 1 seperated left shoulder from helping Glen get ready for his MMA bout...you could wax my fanny at ANYTHING!


Who's he fighting, anyway?

Robb Wolf
02-21-2007, 11:26 AM
Who's he fighting, anyway?
uhhh...I keep forgetting the guys name...fights out of Fairtex and Cesar Gracie's place i think...fairtex for sure. The dude is good and I think it's going to be a damn good fight to watch.

Yael Grauer
02-21-2007, 12:43 PM
uhhh...I keep forgetting the guys name...fights out of Fairtex and Cesar Gracie's place i think...fairtex for sure. The dude is good and I think it's going to be a damn good fight to watch.

Oh, c'mon Robb, get me a name! I wanna look him up on fightfinder!

Robb Wolf
02-21-2007, 07:31 PM
Oh, c'mon Robb, get me a name! I wanna look him up on fightfinder!
Yael-
You need to spend less time oggling dudes online...

Yael Grauer
02-21-2007, 07:34 PM
Yael-
You need to spend less time oggling dudes online...

I look up just as many chicks on fightfinder, I'll have you know! :mad:

That's a nice cover for your memory problem, though. :p

http://familydoctor.org/124.xml

Robb Wolf
02-21-2007, 07:59 PM
Ok, ok...here you go:
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=12477

Dan Marks. Looks tough and well conditioned...its going to be good!