PDA

View Full Version : Once a week o-lifting


Jason Brown
01-31-2010, 11:09 AM
Hello Catalyst forum, long time lurker, first time poster. I am working on programming a combo of powerlifting and o-lifting. I am planning a monday wednesday friday schedule where monday is max effort upper body + dynamic effort lower body, friday is max effort lower body + dynamic effort upper body. Wednesday I want to be O-lifting day, but I am not sure how to structure it. Can anyone here give me some Ideas. My thoughts are to work up to a heavy single on a particular lift and then back off to 70 to 80 something percent for sets and reps according to Prilepin's chart. Am I looking in the right direction?

Alex Bond
01-31-2010, 11:50 AM
I liked "work up to a heavy single, take off 15-20%, do 3-5 more singles", "do 10-18 reps across on the minute at a light weight", and "5 singles across". I'd snatch and C&J on the same day, doing one heavy and one medium/light, switching up which was heavy, just choosing one of those three set/rep combos for each one. It was okay for maintenance or slow progress, but to really get better you need to do the Olys more than once a week.

Kevin Perry
01-31-2010, 12:07 PM
Jason,

That's similar to what I have done in the past and it has worked out pretty well.

Jason Brown
01-31-2010, 12:36 PM
Thank you Alex. There will always be trade offs cross training like this, but I am seeking the optimum balance so I can progress in both disciplines at the same time. How would you add more o-lifts into my program. Maybe another day dedicated to o-lifts?

Garrett Smith
01-31-2010, 02:22 PM
Are you more interested in the full or power versions?

I'm currently doing just 5/3/1 with power cleans (among several other things), but I usually full snatch one day a week.

Arien Malec
01-31-2010, 02:53 PM
What are your goals? And what's your current level of o-lifting?

Ideas for getting more practice: throw in 5 singles of a snatch or c&j movement, focusing on your weakness before each PL workout.

Ideas for structuring your oly day: if you have excellent, consistent form, go for the "work to max, back off for some singles" approach. If you don't, go for 80-85% for 10-20 singles or something like Mills 20/20.

Jason Brown
01-31-2010, 03:18 PM
I don't really have a preference. I have been rotating between the power and full versions of both snatch and clean after 3 weeks, and doing this once a week on my total body day(3 day MEBB template). These have been done working up to a heavy triple(week 1) and heavy singles (week 2 and 3). Recently I added the dynamic effort tier to this program( Coach Rut's advanced template). I am concerned that I am not allowing 72hrs. between the DE and the ME lifts(per Westside's recommendations). Also I am beginning to believe that the template may not be the best structure for the o-lifts. After considering this I am playing around with changing it to this: Monday ME upper / DE lower, Wednesday ME O-Lifts / DE O-lifts (total body day in MEBB speak) ,Friday ME lower / DE upper. I haven't heard o-lifters talk about ME and DE, so this is where I need some guidance. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, I suppose I would work up to a max single then back down to the 70 to 80 something range for the DE work. For the powerlifts I would never do ME and DE the same day, but this seems to be the norm for o-lifts, although not really described in that terminology.

Jason Brown
01-31-2010, 03:28 PM
My current level of o-lifting: best snatch 240, best C&J 300, front squat 475, overhead squat 365, push press 365. As you can see I have a strength base, but am relatively new to o-lifts. My goals are to become more explosive for the highland games ( I am new to this) and also compete in local powerlifting competitions.

Alex Bond
01-31-2010, 04:37 PM
Your situation, being very strong and not very technically proficient, sounds a lot like what Arden Cogar was dealing with a while ago. He's on the boards here, maybe send him a PM or post in his log, and he might give you advice better suited for your particular situation.

Matt Foreman
02-02-2010, 05:54 PM
My personal advice would be to attend the seminar on March 13-14, where you will learn a legitimate cornucopia of helpful information on combining PL and OL:)

Arden Cogar Jr.
02-04-2010, 01:30 PM
Jason,
I compete in Lumberjack Sports, not highland games, but I intermingle my event training with my gym work. Given that I'm concentrating on explosion and maintaining as much strength as I can (if not improving), I do the traditional power lifting movemetns after I do the explosive movemetns. Like you, my main focus is becoming more explosive and quick for my sport.

My current template is
Day 1- Block Power Snatch, Overhead Squat, Back Squat, Snatch Pulls, 4 board, abs
Day 2 - event train
Day 3 - Block Squat Clean, Push Press, Front Squat, Clean Pulls, 2 board, abs
Day 4 - event train
Day 5 - snatch, clean and jerk, back squat, deadlift, ring push ups,abs
Day 6 - rest or event work
Day 7 event work or rest or resume Day 1.

I've committed to increasing my front squat, so I've dropped the back squats in favor of front squats (Day 1 - 5 sets 3 75%, Day 3 - heavy heavy 1/4s and 1/2s Day 5 - 5,4,3,2,1 with the 1 ranging from 85% to 95% depending upon my wave % for that week). My Coach has me waving my weights between 70% and 90%, but never higher than 90% as there's no need. There's no need because the real focus is the event work. I can back squat in the 6s and my front squat is in the low to mid 4s. I think that's off, so I'm going to front squat more.

I slept funny on my left shoulder on Monday night and I can't do overheads this week, I'm so pissed. I had hoped to set a PR based upon my last workout that was really strong.

How much do you weigh? That 365 OHS is ungodly. I know that Mario Lopez once OHS 212kgs after Krastev set the WR Snatch back in the 80s. That 365 is not far from it. Holy crap.

Hope that helps a bit?

All the best,
Arden

Jason Brown
02-05-2010, 05:49 AM
Arden,
Thanks for the information. My post-holidays weight is hovering around 300. I was pleasantly surprised with my PR for overhead squat as I have never tried to max out on that before. Up until a few weeks ago my record was 275 for 5. I did a 3 week cycle of max effort work and it shot up tremendously. I posted a video of it on my training blog. (http://matanuskabarbell.blogspot.com/2010/01/max-effort-overhead-squat-week-3-3-3-3.html)

Arden Cogar Jr.
02-05-2010, 09:47 AM
Very impressive!!! Love it. Nice and deep too.

How tall are you? I'm guessing about my height - 5'11"? Thick as a brick too. Lots of heavy weights in your back ground. That will serve you well.

I am finally getting comfortable with those kind of weights overhead. I was stuck on 145 kilos for ever until I did for a triple last week.

I've found that the secret to learning how to handle heavier weights is by handling heavier weights.

But to answer your original question on this thread, I would like to see you do some form of dynamic movement at the beginning of every gym session. It will help with the explosive power you're wanting to generate for HG. Even if it's just power cleans and power snatches. No need to do the full movements given your goal, IMO. However it would be sweet to see what you could snatch. I gotta be frank, with that OHS and some serious coaching you could probably get close the American snatch record for the 105+. That was impressive.

Good luck and go heavy.

All the best,
Arden

Arden,
Thanks for the information. My post-holidays weight is hovering around 300. I was pleasantly surprised with my PR for overhead squat as I have never tried to max out on that before. Up until a few weeks ago my record was 275 for 5. I did a 3 week cycle of max effort work and it shot up tremendously. I posted a video of it on my training blog. (http://matanuskabarbell.blogspot.com/2010/01/max-effort-overhead-squat-week-3-3-3-3.html)

Jason Brown
02-05-2010, 11:47 AM
Arden,
I am doing some dynamic effort stuff every workout (presses, bench, or box squat)
for speed strength. I am thinking adding some technique ( full clean and jerks and full snatches) reps into my warm up. My sport interest being divided between powerlifting and the highland events, I don't want to take away too much from my slow lifts.

Again thanks for the help,
Jason
BTW. I am 6'1"

Arden Cogar Jr.
02-05-2010, 12:32 PM
Jason,
Sorry, I mispoke. My apologies.

I consider the power cleans and power snatches to be dynamic movements. They have to be performed explosively (maximum speed) or they are useless. They also need to be performed at the very beginning of each session when you are your freshest.

I know that Louie and others have dynamic effort speed days with the exercises that you mention, but those movements aren't necessarily optimally performed at maximum speed. For example, yes you can bench press 500, but you are not going to move the barbell as fast as you would if your were moving 200.

With the cleans and the snatches, optimal speed must be attained when you get near optimal weights (240snatch/300+ clean) for you. Otherwise, you don't get the weight and no amount of strength is going to get it up. Some muscle snatches or muscle cleans can be performed by us "retard strong" folk, but even that has it's limits. As an asside, but highly related, My Coach is happy to see me moving weights I can't curl.

The inclusion of dynamic events (power clean and power snatch) would not take away form your power movements because the weights you would be moving would likely be 1/3 to 1/2 of what you can deadlift. That's a warm up.

That's the reason my sessions go from dynamic movement to absolute strength movements.

Again, my personal opinion is that you would not be properly served in including full squat cleans and full squat snatches into your training if your focus is powerlifting and highland games. The technical nuances of getting good at those movements requires countless #'s of repetitions and exposures to certain weights. Given that you only plan to do them one day a week, it really is not enough exposure to become technically proficient in those movements. I speak to that fact as I struggle with technique now that I'm nearing my limits in performing the movements based upon my physcial strength. Yes, they would, and are, fun to perform and move big weights, but given your goals, it doesn't add up. I've considered dumping them from my own training regiment, but given tht my sport is predicated upon timing and flawless execution, I decided to stay the course in order to maximize my own body mechanics. My thought was I needed to use my body in the most appropriate manner in order to put as much force behind the axe head as I could; the speed element comes into play when getting the axe out of the wood. The same holds true with the Olympic lifts in as much as you apply maximal force on the way up to get the bar off the ground, then maximal speed to get under the barbell to recieve it.

Force/Speed/Timing between the two.

Powerlifting is about maximal force - no speed. HG events have some events that are maximal strength like strongman. But some of the throwing events require the application as i've depicted it above.

personally, I would evaluate your events in HG - see which ones you are weak at, and train them more. If there is a relationship between Force/Speed then consider more gym movements that may have carryover to what you are requiring. (For example weight for height and throwing - power cleans and power snatches are perfect examples of exercises with dramatic carry over).

Just my thoughts and opinions.

all the best,
Arden
Arden,
I am doing some dynamic effort stuff every workout (presses, bench, or box squat)
for speed strength. I am thinking adding some technique ( full clean and jerks and full snatches) reps into my warm up. My sport interest being divided between powerlifting and the highland events, I don't want to take away too much from my slow lifts.

Again thanks for the help,
Jason
BTW. I am 6'1"