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Tim Luby
02-04-2010, 09:13 PM
So I'm on my second cycle of 531 and I've begun to wonder whether the number of reps is too high on my 5+, etc. sets. For instance, this week I got 11 reps on the bench and squat for the +5. Pretty sure my starting weight was not underestimated. Anyway, I'm enjoying the challenge of these high-rep sets, but I'm wondering whether they're conducive to strength gains

Donald Lee
02-04-2010, 09:22 PM
I think 5-3-1 is a funky form of linear periodization. It works for some and doesn't work for others. Is it optimal? No. Is it simple? Yes. Many like simple and go that route.

Edit: It obviously also has weekly undulating periodization.

Ryan Secor
02-04-2010, 10:19 PM
For 5/3/1 11 reps on a 5+ day doesn't sound super crazy high to me. Did you increase all your workload maxes in your 2nd cycle?

I know 5/3/1 has been getting some hate from Welbourn and I think Wolf said he tried it at his gym with bad results. I'm running my second month of it so I'm kinda still testing it myself, but here's the thing... (and I have nothing but love for John and Robb both and I'm not sure how long or extensively they tested it).... Jim Wendler has talked about how the point of 5/3/1 is consistent long-term goals. It quite apparently works too for strength gains - Jim has lots of anecdotal evidence up on EliteFTS of both advanced and beginner lifters making some pretty awesome gains with it. Jim and Dave both talk about how much time it takes to get strong and they've very anti 8 or 12 week programs. In fact they typically run long training blocks (at least 16 weeks). Read their new article on t-nation here (http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/tag_team_with_tate_and_wendler). My point being that maybe you're knocking a ton of reps out right now but in a month or two (or more) that will probably slow down pretty significantly. Enjoy it while you can.

This is probably stuff you've already heard or know and like I said I'm still working on forming my overall opinion about it. From what I've seen and done - I like it. It's simple, but effective. I feel good and plan on running it for a while before I make any judgment calls. I really don't see how you're not going to get stronger doing it. On an semi-unrelated topic maybe if John or Robb read this they can expound on what happened with their 5/3/1 experiment.

Donald Lee
02-04-2010, 11:10 PM
I think they tried mixing it with metcons. There's a thread on the CrossFit board with Jim Wendler answering some questions about mixing metcons with 5/3/1.

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=55257

Garrett Smith
02-05-2010, 04:47 AM
11 reps isn't outlandish on a 5+ day, especially if you pushed hard and felt good that day.

I've done 12 reps before on a 5+ DL day, that was pushing a bit hard and messed up two DL max attempts I had to do in the next month after that.

I just started a cycle of 5/3/1 with power cleans. I originally estimated my max at 87 kg (80% of my 108kg C&J max, but I can likely clean more than this). I did an easy 10 reps on my 5+ day, and 10 reps again on my 3+ day (with a bit more in the tank). So yesterday, I decided to use my "5/3/1" day to test my real PC max. It came out to be 100kg.

So, this next cycle I'll be basing my numbers on that.

Derek Simonds
02-05-2010, 04:52 AM
Tim, I think that I am in my 8th or 9th month. I am a big proponent of 5/3/1 for the simplicity and flexibility that it gives me. During my first run through I reached a point where I was not hitting my required reps on the last set so I reset my numbers. I reset them down a lot on press to work on some shoulder issues and 10 percent on everything else. My first month of my reset I was doing the same thing so I moved up 10 LB's across all exercises.

I told Gant that I felt like 5/3/1 was a self limiting hypertrophy to strength program if followed the way it is laid out. How many reps did you get on your last set during your 3 week and 1 week? Are you moving up 10 LB's each month?

Chris H Laing
02-05-2010, 05:16 AM
I think Wolf said he tried it at his gym with bad results.


Actually Robb said he got great results from it.

http://robbwolf.com/2009/10/12/my-training-and-adrenal-fatigue/

Júlíus G. Magnússon
02-05-2010, 05:50 AM
It was Welbourn who said that Wolf didn't get good results from it. I'm guessing he's talked to Robb about it since he wrote that blog post.

Garrett Smith
02-05-2010, 05:58 AM
Kelly Moore loves it too.

My guess is that the intermediate and up folks like it, while beginners and some intermediates still do just fine on linear progression.

Steve Shafley
02-05-2010, 06:31 AM
In the little critique Welbourn wrote, it sounded like he had no idea of what the program consisted of. I've been trying to lay off criticizing his stuff, since Robb respects his opinion, and I respect Robb's opinion, but there's a significant number of things that he has been unable to sell me on and it's often because he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, or he reverts to that "I wuz a pro and I know how proz train!" attitude.

The Crossfit Football stuff is, in my opinion, too random and, while it's barbell based, I'd need about 3-4 weeks of run up time to make sure any high school kids who did it could do the lifts skillfully enough to get any benefit from it.

I did the strength program for a small school last summer, and it was a bit of a nightmare and a clusterfuck due to varying skill levels, strength levels, and a very minimal weight room.

Adam Gagliardi
02-05-2010, 06:36 AM
Those numbers sound about right if you're just starting. As others have said, this wont last long or for many cycles. Remember JW has been running this or variations of it for about 2 years I believe. Stick with it, it works.

Steve Shafley
02-05-2010, 07:02 AM
As with any program, there's a certain amount of buy in necessary to make it work.

If you don't agree with the program, or hate reps, or whatever, then chances are you aren't going to be able to make it work very long.

Scott Kustes
02-05-2010, 07:05 AM
Doesn't sound outlandish to me. I did 3 cycles of 5/3/1 and usually put up 8-10 reps on the 5 days. I'd guess that'll taper off the longer you run it.

Matt Edwards
02-05-2010, 07:24 AM
People are always looking for quick fixes. But the thing is, strength is a long-term plan. Stick with the program, you have a lifetime to get strong.

Kevin Perry
02-05-2010, 07:27 AM
I'm basing my next cycles off if 5/3/1 with mixed Metcon according to what Robb wrote in his blog. Rob said he got good results from it. I did about 2.5 cycles with 5/3/1 before and liked it a lot as it gives enough volume but you need to mix the right assistance work with it.

I saw welbournes post on 5/3/1 he didn't know what he was talking about. Then again, he has to market crossfit football right?

Jay Ashman
02-05-2010, 07:56 AM
I just started 5/3/1 and so far I have gotten 10, 11, and 12 reps on my last set for reps. From what I hear it is pretty common in the first couple months of it to have numbers like that.

As far as Welbourn goes, I lost a lot of respect for him in that thread with the way he handled himself. I could care less that he was a pro, 5/3/1 works and if you use it right you will see results.

CFFB isn't better than 5/3/1, furthermore I cannot wait until 5/3/1 for football comes out... that should be killer.

Steven Low
02-05-2010, 08:00 AM
You SHOULD have numbers like that when you start out. At least Wendler says you want to be putting up the high reps because starting low will give the best results for progress as you ramp.

Same thing with people starting too heavy on Starting Strength. You tend to stall out faster...

Chris Forbis
02-05-2010, 10:13 AM
I've done 12 reps before on a 5+ DL day, that was pushing a bit hard and messed up two DL max attempts I had to do in the next month after that.

I've wondered some about that. Doing a AMRAP set on the DL every week seems like it might be a bit extreme. Is that addressed in the e-book at all? I'm almost certainly going to be buying it, but haven't done so yet.

I think I saw Gant post that he doesn't do AMRAP in week 2 of each cycle. Any other info out there on this?

Gavin Harrison
02-05-2010, 10:37 AM
I've used 5/3/1 with pretty good success. I've done 4 days per week triumvirate and 2 days per week almost no supplemental work. That looked like:

Day 1 -
Press 5/3/1
Squat 5/3/1
Pull Ups

Day 2 -
Bench 5/3/1
DL 5/3/1
Pull Ups

Both worked for me, though my bench/press started to stall on this setup, I thought it might have been a lack of extra pressing.

Here's a bunch of notes from a seminar with Wendler for people interested in how he sets up training for different goals:

http://stronglifts.com/forum/jim-wendler-seminar-some-interesting-points-t19803.html

Also, at the start of a cycle I've gotten around those numbers, 11 bench, 9 squat/dl, etc. It works well for me to come close to maxing out on almost every attempt, but for stronger people it's probably smarter to just get the reps or a few extra without coming close to maxing out.

Ian Gallimore
02-06-2010, 10:15 AM
As others have said, 10 reps is pretty much par for the course for week 1, and I've done as many as 20 on a couple of occasions. Last week I pulled 205kg having not pulled any heavier than 170x3 for the last 8 months.

Frrom my experience, having done 8 cycles so far, double the target reps for the day is usually a decent number to hit, although I usually hit more.

I'm not sure where this "adding" metcon to 5/3/1 talk comes from though. It's already a part of the program - it's called Moving North of Vag and is in the book.

Derek Simonds
02-06-2010, 11:29 AM
As others have said, 10 reps is pretty much par for the course for week 1, and I've done as many as 20 on a couple of occasions. Last week I pulled 205kg having not pulled any heavier than 170x3 for the last 8 months.

Frrom my experience, having done 8 cycles so far, double the target reps for the day is usually a decent number to hit, although I usually hit more.

I'm not sure where this "adding" metcon to 5/3/1 talk comes from though. It's already a part of the program - it's called Moving North of Vag and is in the book.

Agreed and I think that is probably my favorite part of the book!

Donald Lee
02-06-2010, 01:02 PM
I've wondered some about that. Doing a AMRAP set on the DL every week seems like it might be a bit extreme. Is that addressed in the e-book at all? I'm almost certainly going to be buying it, but haven't done so yet.

I think I saw Gant post that he doesn't do AMRAP in week 2 of each cycle. Any other info out there on this?

Mike Tuscherer, the founder of RTS, has stated that the Deadlift is no more stressful on the body than the Back Squat. He says he's done tests to prove it. He seemed to say that we tend to train the Deadlift differently from the Back Squat, which may make it seem to be more stressful.

Kevin Perry
02-06-2010, 02:44 PM
So besides sprints and interals what kinds of metcons do you guys feel compliment 5/3/1? It would likely have to be less than 10 min and be related to the specific exercise for that day.

Júlíus G. Magnússon
02-06-2010, 06:34 PM
Mike Tuscherer, the founder of RTS, has stated that the Deadlift is no more stressful on the body than the Back Squat. He says he's done tests to prove it. He seemed to say that we tend to train the Deadlift differently from the Back Squat, which may make it seem to be more stressful.

Well... The deadlift isn't more stressful than the back squat when your max back squat is a couple of hundred pounds higher than your max deadlift.

Ryan Secor
02-06-2010, 07:08 PM
Actually Robb said he got great results from it.

http://robbwolf.com/2009/10/12/my-training-and-adrenal-fatigue/

It was Welbourn who said that Wolf didn't get good results from it. I'm guessing he's talked to Robb about it since he wrote that blog post.

I stand corrected... not sure how I missed that on Robb's blog.

Donald Lee
02-06-2010, 09:19 PM
Well... The deadlift isn't more stressful than the back squat when your max back squat is a couple of hundred pounds higher than your max deadlift.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about raw training.

Derek Weaver
02-07-2010, 05:03 PM
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/sucker_punch_jason_ferruggia

The first two questions apply to this discussion, I think.

RE: CF Football. I think Welbourn has a vested interest in protecting the brand he was charged with creating. I'm a little perplexed why he would comment on Robb's experience when there's a freaking blog post to the contrary.

edit: The majority of that article applies to the question at hand.

Jay Ashman
02-07-2010, 05:39 PM
Derek, 5/3/1 for football is coming out soon, maybe that leaves a sour taste in his mouth....

Steve Shafley
02-07-2010, 07:30 PM
Ferruggia has issues. Legitimate mental health issues. Poor bastard.

Derek Weaver
02-07-2010, 07:56 PM
Yeah, he's definitely a different dude.

I'm interested to see what this 5/3/1 for football is going to be. How can it really be different? Lift: 5/3/1 scheme. Play football.

Jay Ashman
02-07-2010, 08:44 PM
Yeah, he's definitely a different dude.

I'm interested to see what this 5/3/1 for football is going to be. How can it really be different? Lift: 5/3/1 scheme. Play football.

playing football doesn't get you ready for football, Derek.

I suggest buying the book when it comes out and see for yourself.

it will be 150 pages of stuff for football players, coaches and S&C coaches to use year round to prepare their athletes for the sport.

I know one of the authors of this book personally and he has a ton of experience coaching and training FB players and coached/trained one of the Saints players in tonight's Super Bowl.

Gant Grimes
02-08-2010, 08:03 AM
Mike Tuscherer, the founder of RTS, has stated that the Deadlift is no more stressful on the body than the Back Squat. He says he's done tests to prove it. He seemed to say that we tend to train the Deadlift differently from the Back Squat, which may make it seem to be more stressful.

LOL at tests to prove it. How does this work? If someone can get through a program of 3x5 deadlifts three days a week I'll start to listen.

To answer the question about me, yes, I dropped the AMRAP in 3's week. I did with DL first because pulling heavy twice a month works fine for me. I dropped it in squats on 3's week because I was flying that day and didn't want to sit on a plane after AMRAP squats. I found out I liked it, so I kept it.

I talked to Welbourn about the 531 thing. He said he was running 531 on one group and linear progression on another, with which he got better results. That shouldn't come as any surprise to anybody as linear progressions works well for anyone who can do it. I don't want to misquote him because we moved onto other things from here, but it seems like his testing had to do with 531 vs. linear progression for new trainees.

Jay Ashman
02-08-2010, 08:49 AM
when it comes to new trainees, linear is the way to go, period... so of course he will get better results that way.

Donald Lee
02-08-2010, 11:29 AM
LOL at tests to prove it. How does this work? If someone can get through a program of 3x5 deadlifts three days a week I'll start to listen.

To answer the question about me, yes, I dropped the AMRAP in 3's week. I did with DL first because pulling heavy twice a month works fine for me. I dropped it in squats on 3's week because I was flying that day and didn't want to sit on a plane after AMRAP squats. I found out I liked it, so I kept it.



He seems to be using some form of technology to monitor stress levels. I could ask him how he tested it if you like. He might be willing to share the data.

Steve Shafley
02-08-2010, 03:59 PM
531 is not necessarily a program I'd recommend to a beginner, simply for the reason that linear progression is more appropriate to the gains a beginning lifter gets.

I wouldn't recommend XFFB to a beginner either.

In my own lifting in the bench press:

It took me 2 years to bench 225.
It took me 5 years after that to hit 315.
It took me 2 years after that to hit 385.

And I haven't pushed that lift again hard until now, and it's going to be a while before I hit my previous bests.

Now, training a friend of mine last year, I took him from a all time PR of 225 to 295 in 3 months with a simple linear periodization coupled with Tuchsherer's basic blocks.

Derek Weaver
02-08-2010, 06:01 PM
playing football doesn't get you ready for football, Derek.

I suggest buying the book when it comes out and see for yourself.

it will be 150 pages of stuff for football players, coaches and S&C coaches to use year round to prepare their athletes for the sport.

I know one of the authors of this book personally and he has a ton of experience coaching and training FB players and coached/trained one of the Saints players in tonight's Super Bowl.

I never said playing football gets you ready to play football. However, I would say that it gets you more ready than lifting weights.

I'm just curious how the program is going to be any different than any other well thought out program integrating specific skill work and drills with strength training.

Jay Ashman
02-08-2010, 07:51 PM
I never said playing football gets you ready to play football. However, I would say that it gets you more ready than lifting weights.

I'm just curious how the program is going to be any different than any other well thought out program integrating specific skill work and drills with strength training.

well being an ex-FB coach and player I know it takes a lot of off-field work to really excel at it.

It will be different being that the book is going to outline a yearly plan not only for individuals but it will be team ready for any football coach/S&C coach to put in place for his school/team right from the book. That way an individual player can use it on his own or a coach can use it for his entire team.

I know it will be about 150 pages in length which makes it a pretty comprehensive e-book on the subject.

I'm excited for its release.

Many HS football programs are horrible in their S&C work. when I coached, the school's strength coach had a program right out of a bodybuilding magazine; pec decs, leg extensions, tricep kickbacks, etc... I went into the gym, took it off the wall and ordered our players to not follow that but stick to the basics of barbell training. They went from 1-9 to 7-3 in one season. Its amazing what a solid program does for a young team.

Derek Weaver
02-08-2010, 10:46 PM
well being an ex-FB coach and player I know it takes a lot of off-field work to really excel at it.

It will be different being that the book is going to outline a yearly plan not only for individuals but it will be team ready for any football coach/S&C coach to put in place for his school/team right from the book. That way an individual player can use it on his own or a coach can use it for his entire team.

I know it will be about 150 pages in length which makes it a pretty comprehensive e-book on the subject.

I'm excited for its release.

Many HS football programs are horrible in their S&C work. when I coached, the school's strength coach had a program right out of a bodybuilding magazine; pec decs, leg extensions, tricep kickbacks, etc... I went into the gym, took it off the wall and ordered our players to not follow that but stick to the basics of barbell training. They went from 1-9 to 7-3 in one season. Its amazing what a solid program does for a young team.

At the risk of completely hijacking this thread. All I can say is, no argument here. I'm well aware of what it takes to be competitive in a tough, physically demanding sport. Getting high school athletes stronger will, in general make them better athletes.

However, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Why would this be any better? Take a program that's not optimal for beginners and apply it to beginner, novice athletes? I question whether it would be better than say, Starr 5x5 or a variation of sorts. Why not Westside for Skinny Bastards? Recovery can be an issue, but for the high school athlete who doesn't have a job, or if he/she does, it's not a very taxing and stressful one, all they do is sleep and eat in the off season. With the juvenile growth that's possible along with their novice status why would a slower approach to strength, no matter what else is involved regarding conditioning and sport specific drills/skill work, be preferred?

I'm just growing tired of all the "Insert Program/Philosophy" for "Insert sport" programs.

And for the record, I like 5/3/1 and consider Wendler to be wholly legit. Also, my opinion doesn't matter, and it's just that, an opinion.

Jay Ashman
02-09-2010, 05:41 AM
well I think we just have to wait for its release to see how they approach it...

Steve Shafley
02-09-2010, 05:41 AM
Many high schools just have crappy weight rooms. Often, well meaning donors give them useless machines that just take up space and don't do anything for a team.

High school football programs need, in my opinion:

Low skill movements
Clear progression guidelines
Competitive events

Jay Ashman
02-09-2010, 07:37 AM
Many high schools just have crappy weight rooms. Often, well meaning donors give them useless machines that just take up space and don't do anything for a team.

High school football programs need, in my opinion:

Low skill movements
Clear progression guidelines
Competitive events

damn right about that... the HS Kerry Collins went to (our rivals in sport) got hooked up by him for a million dollar training facility. Went there a few times to work out when I still lived in that area, and it rivals some college gyms. Impressive stuff... bumpers, platforms, racks, oly bars, not too many machines. Is it any wonder why that program is a state power?

you are right about that for HS football...

I look at it like this:

Player: I need to be a better player, coach.
Coach: Ok, let's get you stronger
Training: move weight, run fast, do some basic drills to work on acceleration, explosiveness and lateral movement
Player: Holy hell, coach, I am starting this year!!!

Its not rocket science with a HS kid.

Gant Grimes
02-09-2010, 07:58 AM
He seems to be using some form of technology to monitor stress levels. I could ask him how he tested it if you like. He might be willing to share the data.

I'd like to see it if he'll divulge it. It seems like a measurement nightmare. I assume we're talking about the regular back squat and deadlift and not speed pulls, box squats, etc. I would be interested to see that study.

Derek Weaver
02-09-2010, 02:05 PM
damn right about that... the HS Kerry Collins went to (our rivals in sport) got hooked up by him for a million dollar training facility. Went there a few times to work out when I still lived in that area, and it rivals some college gyms. Impressive stuff... bumpers, platforms, racks, oly bars, not too many machines. Is it any wonder why that program is a state power?

you are right about that for HS football...

I look at it like this:

Player: I need to be a better player, coach.
Coach: Ok, let's get you stronger
Training: move weight, run fast, do some basic drills to work on acceleration, explosiveness and lateral movement
Player: Holy hell, coach, I am starting this year!!!

Its not rocket science with a HS kid.

exactly. Which is why I'm so skeptical about 5/3/1 for football. Get the kid stronger using the simplest movements and progressions possible. Then have them practice/play their sport. Squat, press, pull, play- repeat.

Jay Ashman
02-09-2010, 02:28 PM
when I get a copy of it, I'll post my opinion of it... then again with 150 pages worth of info, I bet they will take into account a novice athlete, guess we will see.

Blake McCarthy
02-09-2010, 03:59 PM
Jay,

I just did a quick search for info on the 5/3/1 for football and couldn't find anything. Do you know when it is supposed to come out? It sounds like something I definitely want to read.

Gavin Harrison
02-09-2010, 07:03 PM
Jay,

I just did a quick search for info on the 5/3/1 for football and couldn't find anything. Do you know when it is supposed to come out? It sounds like something I definitely want to read.

I believe both Angry Coach and Jim Wendler of EFS have said that it's top priority for them and slated to come out soon in the Q&A. As a side note, 5/3/1 for powerlifting is Jim's next edition of the book to come out (and be a top priority) after 5/3/1 for football.

Jay Ashman
02-10-2010, 01:15 AM
I believe both Angry Coach and Jim Wendler of EFS have said that it's top priority for them and slated to come out soon in the Q&A. As a side note, 5/3/1 for powerlifting is Jim's next edition of the book to come out (and be a top priority) after 5/3/1 for football.

You are correct. They are finishing it up now and will be out as soon as the edits and formatting is done.

Angry Coach is a hell of a trainer and knows a ton about training for football.

Steve Shafley
02-10-2010, 07:10 AM
James Smith aka the Thinker, has an Iron Radio podcast where he goes into a little bit of what he does for the skill positions at Pitt.

It sounds like they (the football coaches) let him and Buddy Morris do their thing without interfering, and it really seems that they've got the programs dialed in.

Steve Shafley
02-10-2010, 07:17 AM
And, Derek, I essentially agree with you. You just need to have a high school athlete do something to get stronger, etc.

What a set program like Bigger, Faster, Stronger or The Strongest Shall Survive, or Starting Strength, or 531 provides is a framework for this. You cannot expect a high school athlete to just squat, press, and pull by himself unless you have an exceptionally committed and intelligent kid.

A kid needs to be able to walk into the weight room, look at a piece of paper or something, and then have at it. I printed out copies of what they were supposed to do on each day and put them on a bulletin board.

The AMRAP final set in 531 provides a nice mini-competition with high school athletes that will help keep them interested and focused.

Jay Ashman
02-10-2010, 08:19 AM
Got that right, Steve.. even then some kids have to be prodded.

Derek Weaver
02-10-2010, 10:17 AM
Definitely. I wouldn't just set a kid in a weight room and tell him to have at it. However, I wouldn't have them do 5/3/1. I would think that there are plenty of other ways to set up a competition. Farmers walks, sprints, playing time. At my old high school there was a wall of strength so to speak. Supervised one rep mazes at the end of the summer and again in spring, the highest maxes went on the wall. In some cases there were records up there for years.

As far as strength goes, a high school kid, of all trainees, has the potential to benefit the most from a more aggressive approach to adding weight to the bar and in turn his frame.

If this new approach is targeted for more advanced athletes like college and pros then great. That makes more sense to me.

Dominic Sirianni
02-10-2010, 11:05 AM
when I get a copy of it, I'll post my opinion of it... then again with 150 pages worth of info, I bet they will take into account a novice athlete, guess we will see.

I'm sure there will be some filler content that doesn't differ much from the 5/3/1 original, like how to do the lifts, how to do the assistance lifts, some log tables, some success stories. I doubt it will be 150 pages of tightly spaced dense information.

Jay Ashman
02-10-2010, 06:07 PM
I'm sure there will be some filler content that doesn't differ much from the 5/3/1 original, like how to do the lifts, how to do the assistance lifts, some log tables, some success stories. I doubt it will be 150 pages of tightly spaced dense information.

I think you will be surprised how much info is in it... :)

Derek, case in point. I have a high school baseball player I am training now. He is a decent player, from what his coach says, but he is weak and needs to be stronger. He has good contact but for his frame he has little power.

I started with him 9 sessions ago. Took him from hardly being able to stabilize a 45# bar on the bench to doing 75# for 8 reps. I have him doing box squats because he has knee problems and doing weighted squats are a major issue. His first day under the bar he had problems with a 55# bar off the box, yesterday he did 155# for 5 reps.

First day he was horrific with bodyweight squats, pushups, body rows. Now he can bust out 50 air squats with no problem, 15 pushups from only doing 2, and about 10 body rows from doing zero.

He came from square zero to this in 9 sessions so far. Basic strength program, and we are doing some sled pushes for conditioning, shuttle runs for movement, sledgehammer strikes on the tire for swing power and a fair amount of core work.

His coach called me the other day and said he won a hitting prize at practice for farthest ball hit and he has seen a noticeable difference in his speed and bat speed.

Like you said, it is not hard to train a high school kid, you just have to prod him in the right direction.

Gant Grimes
02-11-2010, 06:48 AM
These are strange stories you guys tell. Here in Texas, motivation isn't a problem, at least at the larger high schools. Regardless of UIL "rules," if you don't show up, you're off the team. If you show up but don't work hard, you won't get to start.

The most frequent problem I see here are logistics and eating. Logistically speaking, the basic programs work because they're simple, specific, and most schools can throw together 3-4 stations and have 4-5 of everything. Of course someone is going to have to bench before they squat, but whatever. The next problem is getting the damn kids to eat enough.

Jay Ashman
02-11-2010, 07:02 AM
These are strange stories you guys tell. Here in Texas, motivation isn't a problem, at least at the larger high schools. Regardless of UIL "rules," if you don't show up, you're off the team. If you show up but don't work hard, you won't get to start.

The most frequent problem I see here are logistics and eating. Logistically speaking, the basic programs work because they're simple, specific, and most schools can throw together 3-4 stations and have 4-5 of everything. Of course someone is going to have to bench before they squat, but whatever. The next problem is getting the damn kids to eat enough.

at the larger schools you have insane competition, plus in Texas HS sports (esp football) are a religion. Here on Long Island it isn't quite the same.

There is so many things kids can do here to occupy their time, plus the demographics are different. We have areas here that have incredibly wealthy families and with that seems to come the kid who wants it given to them. Even in the poorer areas the direction seems to be lacking.

Its a shame but its true. Not many kids are self-motivated to hit the gym and bust out a set of heavy squats, they are more content with trying to look good for the clubs and look like a bodybuilder. Its the culture here, its different...

In the schools that have a tradition (St Anthony's high school) it is different but that is only because the parents send their kids there to excel, and the kids are expected to work hard to play sports there.

Even Lacrosse programs here are behind the times in strength work. You have a tradition of great lacrosse players and coaches here, but more often that not in the offseason they train like something out of a Flex magazine.

The ones that don't train that way, excel.

Allen Yeh
02-11-2010, 07:35 AM
at the larger schools you have insane competition, plus in Texas HS sports (esp football) are a religion. Here on Long Island it isn't quite the same.

Being from LI I can attest to that! Where in LI are you again Jay? Next time I visit my parents up there I'd like to check out your setup.

Jay Ashman
02-11-2010, 08:16 AM
Being from LI I can attest to that! Where in LI are you again Jay? Next time I visit my parents up there I'd like to check out your setup.

Nice...

Babylon. You?

I don't have my own place, I won't for a while. Rent is expensive as shit here. At the best I can get 1000 sq ft for 7 bucks a sq ft and that is in an industrial park with no visibility other than word of mouth and advertising. That would be 7 grand a month and I'd have to pay all my own utilities and maintenance. Upwards of 8000 a month for just rent and utilities... minus what I need to make out of that to pay my personal household bills I would need to have about 65 fulltime clients at $125 a month just to pay my bills. That is difficult to do.

I honestly don't know how CF boxes make money here, I've been to several and a couple of them are in high traffic areas and I know the rent has to be about 15-30 dollars a sq ft there...

I'm not into committing financial suicide at this stage of my life so I work out of World Gym in West Babylon. I'm an independent trainer for them and they have everything I need. Strongman, powerlifting, sports performance equipment, some incredible athletes/lifters there so I have a supply of face-to-face knowledge if I have a question. We are the last gym on the Island that has a setup like we do that is "public". The others are Catz, CF gyms and some place in Stony Brook that is appointment only. So I am lucky.

If you come back up, let me know, you can use my place for your training for sure.