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View Full Version : Fred Hahn of Slow Burn(TM) takes up OL at LBH


Steve Shafley
02-13-2007, 06:47 AM
http://p075.ezboard.com/fseriousstrengthfrm1.showMessage?topicID=1289.topi c

This is the account.

It's quite interesting, as Fred Hahn comes to the realization that slow machine training doesn't really leave you "functional"

It's almost a comedy of ignorance.

Steve Shafley
02-13-2007, 07:00 AM
Actually, I take it back. Fred never seems to make that realization. And he feels his arms are "too short" to snatch, and that the snatch requires "hypermobility" in the shoulders, and his are too strong and stable for the snatch.

I commend him for trying it out.

Allen Yeh
02-13-2007, 07:28 AM
Steve,

Your username ins't Sumo is it? Heh He seems to have it in for this Fred guy.

Anyway, wow that thread is kind of nuts this guy seems a bit stuck on himself in terms of physical appearance I think every other post was on how muscular he is compared to others. From what he was saying on the thread he had me thinking he was huge, but then I googled him and definitely not anywhere as large as his claims are in there.

Another thing is the whole "hypermobile" shoulders arguement. Say what? So he's saying snatching is hard because his joints are in such excellent condition and then says how everyone else there was rubbing icy hot on themselves along with wearing knee/elbow sleeves. In fact it seems like he's just making excuses for everything. "oh well I can't do this because of this or that...."

Maybe this is me being an ass but for all the things he talks about he seems to be very clueless and ignorant about a lot of things. At first I thought maybe he was a beginner but according to his bio he's been training people for 20 years...etc but he doesn't know how to test a vertical jump? He's not even sure what a front squat is? huh?

Steve Shafley
02-13-2007, 07:32 AM
No, Sumo is a guy named Juan from the U.K.

Blobert is a good friend of mine. Lincoln is the Lincoln from Crossfit Sedona.

I am just an observer, I don't like participating there.

Elliot Royce
02-13-2007, 08:07 AM
This is pretty hilarious, and I can't believe Lincoln is so patient with the guy: he usually is pretty black/white on CF. I can relate to the guys comments since he seems to have many of my limitations. Of course, he finds an even better way to rationalize them: "not hypermobile shoulders"!

I also loved the comment by the guy who said that O lifters don't do bicep curls because it would get in the way of the rack position. That's hilarious!

He obviously has some sense of humor about himself since he mentions the coach calling him "puffy".

His ignorance is a little scary: "the bar weighs 40lbs", "what's a front squat", "how to you measure vertical jump"

Also, his sidekick asks him to test himself in a few weeks to see whether O lifting is all it's cracked up to be for vertical jump. It really is a comedy of ignorance.

Allen - I think what it comes down to is that we've been exposed to O lifting via different routes and have picked up some knowledge. I think for most bodybuilders they have no idea what's involved. The guy may be a bit self-absorbed but isn't that a requirement for bodybuilding?

Robb Wolf
02-13-2007, 06:13 PM
WOW. I talked a bunch with Fred after Dr' Eades posted a link to the Metabolic Control Analysis article we did with Dr. Seyfried. Fred had a slew of question pertaining to intermittent fasting and training in general. Fred is a good guy but I'd put him in the camp of the Last HIT Jedi's. SlowBurn (Fred's 'system") is better than sitting on the couch but in comparison to Devany's old stuff, CrossFit, Kettbells, Ross's work...Olifting...shoveling gravel!

I don't know, to each their own I guess but it is eerie to see someone SO focused on aesthetics when there is a 60 year old woman in the house that can wax your ass. Hang around some lifters and fighter long enough and you make few assumptions based on appearance...although i think Fred WAS int TaeKwanDo....

Yuen Sohn
02-13-2007, 09:01 PM
I remember seeing Fred last Wednesday, but at the time I did not know who he was. I'll admit I'm not familiar with either him or his training methodology, so I'll withhold any judgment. Anyway, I'm sure it would be more productive to have a friendly debate in-person.

There is one point I would like to clarify where he states being the 'ONLY' person in the room not using linament, braces and wraps. I certainly wasn't, and neither were my teammates John, Jimmy, David, Meegan or Dennis.

John: if you're reading this, who the heck snatched 125 on Wednesday????

Jonas Lind
02-14-2007, 12:37 AM
Thanks for that. Very funny.

John Alston
02-14-2007, 06:14 AM
Hey, guys
Another LBH guy here. I can't access the thread linked at top while at work, so I will withold some comments.
Yoon is right, not everyone uses linament or sleeves.
Snatched 125? Was that Oskar? I think he told me he had a big lift I missed. I am not sure.
I will have to check out the thread tonight after training. We'll see if he's there tonight.

Yuen Sohn
02-14-2007, 06:53 AM
I guess I was just a bit taken aback by some aspects of his report. Among other things, you'd think he was the only healthy person in a room full of cripples.

Whatever the case, like Steve said, he did make the effort to go and try it out. I do hope he stays with it.

Robb Wolf
02-14-2007, 07:32 AM
I guess I was just a bit taken aback by some aspects of his report. Among other things, you'd think he was the only healthy person in a room full of cripples.

Whatever the case, like Steve said, he did make the effort to go and try it out. I do hope he stays with it.

Yoon-

Good Point. Fred is super passionate about all this stuff which is of course good and it takes guts to step out and really do something new. Was it Biosiato who talked smack about bodybuilders for years and then was challenged to get ready for a show? He said it was some of the most grueling and brutal training he has ever done...but he was doing back squats with 300+lbs for sets of 30!

Jonas Lind
02-14-2007, 07:48 AM
Just read thru a second time. Its probably one of funniest threads ever.

John Alston
02-14-2007, 06:47 PM
Yeah, I am glad to have impressed Fred as one of the young guys leaping the other night but am not impressed by his lack of beginner mind.
I mean, just admit you need to work on shoulder ROM already. Just admit your leg presses haven't prepared you for real ass to grass squats, let alone the overhead squat.
I wonder what he'll write tonight. I'll wonder what he thinks about my one-handed snatch practice.
Though I did see his jerk last week and I will say it looked good. But even fully upright he holds the bar forward. If you look at his resume, you see a lot of schooling but not a lot of work with athletes. I think that says something about the type of training he works in.

Neal Winkler
02-14-2007, 08:34 PM
Rob, what do you mean by DeVany's old stuff?

James Evans
02-15-2007, 04:57 AM
Utterly inspired comedy.

Lincoln's patience is commendable.

I love the side battle going on as those two guys step in and complain about Sumo's comments (which seem to have gone over Fred's head anyway) and ask for him to be banned.

Thanks for posting that Steve.

Dave Van Skike
02-15-2007, 09:15 AM
Rob, what do you mean by DeVany's old stuff?

Yeah, what's up with that? I thought he has always been a nutter. white teeth and all that.

Robb Wolf
02-15-2007, 11:29 AM
Neal-
Some of Art's old Wo's-
20 squats with an empty bar (apparently 40lbs in Fred land), throw 45's on the bar as quickly as you can and perform 20 squats with 135, another set of 45's quick as you can, perform 10-12 reps with 225, another set of 45's quick as you can 3-5 reps with 315, step outside squat racks and perform jump squats to failure.

3-4 sets of incline DB press W/similar rep scheme

3-5 sets of pull-ups, a rep or two shy of failure.

2-3 days later Warm up deadlifts...then 5-10 reps with 2x+ BW on DL...8-10 seconds between each rep.

Medicine ball throws and some sprint work...something like 3-10sets of 50-100m sprints.

A couple days later a long hike wearing 40lbs of scuba weights. Other days playing basket ball, hitting softballs, or riding motocross.

I followed a "schedule" like this for...oh about 2 years. I added in some Olifts, gymnastics and KB's as I became familiar with them but it was quick, easy and produced nice results with regards to performance.

Looking back this is an interesting mix of almost HIT-esque metcon-ish WO's mixed with a bit of legit strength training...and all typically with full body movements like sprinting, DL's squats, Pcleans etc.

Limitations? One is not going to produce elite levels of either strength or metcon on this type of training...but one CAN produce some damn good results. One might make the argument that this type of training produces a remarkably high return on investment, perhaps not surprising considering Devany's background. It's tough to imagine many sports that necessitate more than a 2.5-3.0 BW DL to have a strength base that is sufficient. One can certainly achieve this level of strength on a schedule like this.

Alternately, if one needs more metcon, just do more CrossFit or Ross Enamait type work.

About a year or two ago a number of people were really giving Art a mountain of crap about his programming...that no elite strength athletes train the way he recommends. That may be the case but it's tough to argue with the minimalist approach given the obvious results.

Sorry, kinda rambling...

R. Alan Hester
02-15-2007, 11:42 AM
Neal-
Some of Art's old Wo's-
20 squats with an empty bar (apparently 40lbs in Fred land), throw 45's on the bar as quickly as you can and perform 20 squats with 135, another set of 45's quick as you can, perform 10-12 reps with 225, another set of 45's quick as you can 3-5 reps with 315, step outside squat racks and perform jump squats to failure.

3-4 sets of incline DB press W/similar rep scheme

3-5 sets of pull-ups, a rep or two shy of failure.

2-3 days later Warm up deadlifts...then 5-10 reps with 2x+ BW on DL...8-10 seconds between each rep.

Medicine ball throws and some sprint work...something like 3-10sets of 50-100m sprints.

A couple days later a long hike wearing 40lbs of scuba weights. Other days playing basket ball, hitting softballs, or riding motocross.

I followed a "schedule" like this for...oh about 2 years. I added in some Olifts, gymnastics and KB's as I became familiar with them but it was quick, easy and produced nice results with regards to performance.

Looking back this is an interesting mix of almost HIT-esque metcon-ish WO's mixed with a bit of legit strength training...and all typically with full body movements like sprinting, DL's squats, Pcleans etc.

Limitations? One is not going to produce elite levels of either strength or metcon on this type of training...but one CAN produce some damn good results. One might make the argument that this type of training produces a remarkably high return on investment, perhaps not surprising considering Devany's background. It's tough to imagine many sports that necessitate more than a 2.5-3.0 BW DL to have a strength base that is sufficient. One can certainly achieve this level of strength on a schedule like this.

Alternately, if one needs more metcon, just do more CrossFit or Ross Enamait type work.

About a year or two ago a number of people were really giving Art a mountain of crap about his programming...that no elite strength athletes train the way he recommends. That may be the case but it's tough to argue with the minimalist approach given the obvious results.

Sorry, kinda rambling...

So you would workout 3 days a week with the above layout?

Neal Winkler
02-15-2007, 12:46 PM
Robb, I think know what you're talking about now. This is in contrast to his "new" stuff where I believe he opts for exercises like leg presses instead of squats, ect.

John Alston
02-15-2007, 01:19 PM
Now here's a question for Lincoln, Sumo and Blobert.
Coach has said like 40 times to me "Freedo - your a
strong guy..." "Freedo your a thick powerful guy..."
on and on.

Since he's coached world class lifters, does that mean
I'm strong now?
From Fred's recent post.

Man, if you know coach, if you know any coach...
I go back to an earlier comment- sports seem like a change in venue for him.
Seriously, it's kind of amazing. This guy is so out of his element. It's kind of sad. Has he never ventured into something new? I mean, getting to OLY, and things as challening as oly, are great because you enter into an area where your old standards disappear and you need to adopt the new ones. That's part of the challenge. But that's part of learning, admitting your ignorance and inexperience and opening yourself up to the new world. Shut your inner critic and listen. Listen to the people who have been doing it for years. Stick around and you'll see, you'll eventually get the jokes, you'll laugh at how silly your ideas were in the beginning, and become a bigger person for it all. But this guy, at least in his posts, and from his weird manners on the platform, is having real trouble adjusting. That this world is quite foreign to him and he lacks reference points for his really seems to be an issue. Just suck it up, listen, admit you know nothing, and keep at it.

John Alston
02-15-2007, 01:24 PM
Robb, I think know what you're talking about now. This is in contrast to his "new" stuff where I believe he opts for exercises like leg presses instead of squats, ect.

Art's focus, as far as I can tell, seems to be more on health than max performance. He has said a number of times that most competitive top athletes are overtraining/wasting away, and uses the figures of post career disabilities as evidence. See how bball pros loose muscle mass throughout the season, for example.
For Art, that level of activity isn't healthy, and I can see his point.
Art is a man who prides himself on decades without any illness. I feel like as I get older my training will move more in line with his methods, but for now I am oly focused.

Don Stevenson
02-15-2007, 03:19 PM
I can't wait until I earn their respect with some decent lifts and then feel I have the rigth to talk to them about slow training for enhancing the strength they already have.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at THAT conversation!

Yuen Sohn
02-15-2007, 03:39 PM
Coach doesn't strike me as someone who would give a rats @#%$ about me quitting. And he's already got my 50 bucks.

AND I'll ignore the innuendo.

Funny - there is only ONE guy there with a kickbutt physique and he is not the strongest lifter but close. There are three other guys who to look at are average. Andrew Shortt would ridicule their physiques for sure. But the one guy 5'6 and 130 cleaned 190 - his personal best yesterday.

Does he look strong? Not at all. Is he?

I can't wait until I earn their respect with some decent lifts and then feel I have the rigth to talk to them about slow training for enhancing the strength they already have.

Just to clarify: the 5'6" guy weighs 67 kgs/~147 pounds. Not to take anything away from Jimmy's great accomplishment, but I'm not a fan of misrepresentation.

Also, in Coach Joe Triolo's defense, he may not in fact care that Fred never shows up again, but to think that money is Joe's primary motive is pretty offensive. For 100 dollars A YEAR (50 of which is for the Olift program), I'd like to see him find a better deal.

Then again who am I to judge, since I've got a physique worthy of ridicule ;)

Ron Nelson
02-15-2007, 03:40 PM
Re: The Fred Thread.

Comedy at other people's expense is good comedy.

Steve Shafley
02-15-2007, 03:46 PM
Holy Christ I got 4 stars!!!! My homie gregg is going to be so jealous.

Yuen Sohn
02-15-2007, 03:55 PM
Only 4? I think you got low-balled...


...there, I fixed it.

Ron Nelson
02-15-2007, 03:58 PM
That's nothing, Yoon's workout log got like a hundred stars.

Wonder who's been dipping into the star bucket?

Yael Grauer
02-15-2007, 10:30 PM
Now here's a question for Lincoln, Sumo and Blobert.
Coach has said like 40 times to me "Freedo - your a
strong guy..." "Freedo your a thick powerful guy..."
on and on.

Since he's coached world class lifters, does that mean
I'm strong now?

That's kind of sad. Actually reading the whole thing makes me feel sorry for him, especially because he's blaming stuff on his shoulder and height but I'm guessing probably realizes on some level that he's making excuses. And I felt bad reading about his knee. :(

In teaching theory they always say you're supposed to use as many or more positive statements than negative statements, and I know it makes a huge difference for me... knowing whoever is helping me (in anything from Olylifting to punching straight to making cordage, or fixing bikes, or whatever) has enough respect to find some things I don't suck at even when I'm messing up a lot of things. It must be really hard for coaches to find the balance, where if you're too nice people write things like "I'm as strong as world class lifters" and if you're too mean they never come back.

Yuen Sohn
02-16-2007, 06:02 AM
That's nothing, Yoon's workout log got like a hundred stars.


I do appreciate whoever did actually rate my log :)

Maybe it's from someone who also hopes to be physically 'ridiculous.' :D

Ron Nelson
02-16-2007, 09:02 AM
I do appreciate whoever did actually rate my log :)

Maybe it's from someone who also hopes to be physically 'ridiculous.' :D

Or they love that avitar. I'm partial to prune Tang, myself.:eek:

Steve Shafley
02-19-2007, 12:36 PM
This thread got so goofy that I couldn't resist replying.

Allen Yeh
02-19-2007, 01:59 PM
This thread got so goofy that I couldn't resist replying.

This guy (Fred Hahn) seems to be seriously deluded.

I read through the updates in the thread and he goes off on what strength is in his definition and on how Olympic and power lifting should be re-labeled.

Steve Shafley
02-19-2007, 02:10 PM
The comment I'm referring to:

If I add 100 pounds to my squat, leg press, hip extension, leg ext and leg curl I'll be a better O lifter

Freaky deaky. First off, the skill level difference between the back squat and the clean is quite large, not to mention the snatch. Even so, building a big squat gives you a tad bit of slop to work with your technique, right?

But, leg press, hip extension, leg ext, and leg curl?

There's going to be a significant amount of integration to be done for those to improve any kind of real world movement. I could see hip extensions and leg curls done as part of an accessory regimen for a generalized leg strength program, but, would, in no way, expect them to do anything but strengthen a localized deficit.

It's best to start with integrated movements, and then, as you need, hit the localized deficits that will almost always occur at some point in time as you progress.