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Joe Hart
03-14-2010, 10:06 AM
So I have been reading Joel Jamieson's book...


If you were to train the to things together how would you do it? When I say together I mean the same week. I know these two ideas do not compliment each other. I also understand there is a hormone thing from heavy lifting that lasts 24-48 hours and that as the CNS gets better at recruiting more fibers in a contraction you get stronger and it is not just big muscles. LSD after lifting screws up the hormone thing. So am I understanding this right?

If I read it right. Joel's stance is that if you do your aerobic conditioning and heavy lifting you get stronger and not bigger because the CNS will take care of the strength part (recruitment) and the hormone thing will not be as effective because of conditioning.

So would it beneficial to

1. run in the AM and lift in the PM
2. Lift and then run 24 hrs later
3. Have multiple lifting days together (Lift M, T Rest W, Aerobic TH F SAT)

So a side question to those versed in physiology (sp?) Does the hormone release from heavy lifting just aid in muscle repair and growth (non-sarcoplasmic) and nothing for CNS recovery? When it comes to the CNS the hormones don't do much to aid in its job to make you stronger (sleep and good recovery do that)?

Yeah its long and convoluted. Thats what you get when a non-science person tries to understand science.

Allen Yeh
03-14-2010, 10:37 AM
Anecdotally I wasn't having problems with 5/3/1 in the afternoons and PT in the early AM which usually was runs consisting of 4+ miles. I was dropping weight and getting stronger of course my feet were killing me from all the running but other than that!

Jay Ashman
03-14-2010, 12:06 PM
I'm going to start separating lifting and conditioning days for a few reasons. Recovery and time.

I expect to have better results across the board since I will be able to hit conditioning workouts harder instead of worrying about doing one after pulling 15 reps with 405# in the deadlift or after doing a higher rep set of squats (I'm doing 5/3/1)

I'm not an athlete (anymore) so this may be the best thing for me, at 35, to maintain my long-term fitness and strength and to maximize my recovery ability.

Donald Lee
03-14-2010, 01:45 PM
By aerobic conditioning, do you just mean steady state running-type stuff?

If that's what you mean, then it should not interfere with strength gains or even mass gains, as long as you're eating enough. Preferably, cardio a few hours before or after strength training or on a separate day is ideal. You could still do it right after strength training, if that's all the time you have.

This article might be of help:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-part-1.html

As long as intensity is kept low and volume is set at a reasonable amount, steady state running will not interfere with strength gains. It will mostly train your heart and slow twitch fibers and a few other things. It won't interfere with the fast twitch fibers, esp. if you follow Joel's advice of keeping HR in the 120-150 range.

Some of the other things Joel does, like High Intensity Continuous Training (HICT) could potentially have negative effects on strength and muscle mass, just like CrossFit metcons, but steady state runs at 20 min - 1 hr shouldn't if you're eating at maintenance or surplus calories.

Steve Shafley
03-14-2010, 06:09 PM
Vladimir Issurin, in his "Block Periodization" says that pairing heavy resistance training with low intensity cardiovascular work afterwards is fine.

Note: NOT neuro-based ME work, but heavy training, as more exemplified by 531 or 5x5...that sort of work.

The other thing he couples that with is flexibility training.

Some shit he recommends against pairing that type of work with:

-anaerobic conditioning
-maximal speed work
-maximally explosive work
-neuro-based max effort work

James Evans
03-15-2010, 07:16 AM
Is this ignorant or are we not serving two masters here? That's a lot more fuel you're consuming when you're doing both things.



Joe, as someone who isn't Donald it would be interesting to hear your opinions on the book when you're done reading it.

Donald that's not a dig at you by the way.

Pat McElhone
03-15-2010, 11:37 AM
Why do you want to train both? Next, why can't you train both? Finally, what are you concerned about by training both?

You can do anything you want. Look at Triathletes. They are not very good cyclists, runners, or swimmers, but they are good at all 3. The reverse is true too, you can be a great cyclist and an okay runner, think Lance Armstrong running a marathon.

Joe Hart
03-15-2010, 06:54 PM
Okay. So my intent is not running but CV conditioning. I want to see if what Joel says is true/works. I enjoy trying to get stronger. I would like to do both. I understand that strength gains will be as good doing CV (aerobic) stuff.

Steve- So what you are saying is that the various forms of cleans and snatches would not be profitable venture on CV days or at all in the week. (Checked to see how much those books you talked about cost...ouch!) But doing 5/3/1 and LSD or rowin, biking at the proper HR would be ok?

What I was doing before was some cleans or snatches and then 5/3/1 with assistance exercises.

I will post my thoughts on the book next...

Joe Hart
03-15-2010, 07:21 PM
So I have read Joel Jameison's book "Ultimate MMA Conditioning"

Overall, I thought it was good. There were some things that I would have liked to seen.

He breaks down the various aspects of conditioning into terms that a non-hard science / non-S&C coach person can understand. Most of the sections I read 3-4 times to make sure that I understood it. There are a few places that he leaves stuff out that he goes over in the blue print section and then it makes sense. He explains how the systems interact and how a good base of aerobic conditioning will help with all of your other conditioning endeavors.

He recommends putting down a general strength and general endurnace blocks during the time that you are not getting ready for a fight. If those two blocks are at the proper level then he recommends working on the other aspects of conditioning. He points out often that S&C should really be secondary to MMA skill and technique training. He likes it better if you can use the MMA drills and skill for the conditioning parts. Two birds with one stone.

He gives you testing recommendations to figure out where you are so you can figure what you really need to work on.

He does not tell you exactly how to set up your program because he figures everyones program will be different and have different needs. Which is good. He is more concise with the 8 weeks of fight prep, which is what should be expected.

So of the things that would be nice...
Some of the regmines explain sets reps time...and that you can do sprints, or lunges or what ever. That works for some, because it obvious. Other regimines there is no exercise recommendation and it is difficult for me (atleast) to think of an exercise that would work well with what I have. Sure I could run on everything but that gets real boring. It would seem that KBs would fit in real well with some of the stuff he suggests, but there is no real comment on KBs. Other than doing lunges or jumping squats (if I remember rightly)

Joel has some machines that he likes alot. Versaclimber spin bikes and endless rope. That is great if you have the $$$. What there needs to be is better examples to take these machines place in certain regimines.

All in all I found the book helpful. I am still re-reading it and doing general endurance and strength blocks.

James Evans
03-16-2010, 04:00 AM
Joe, I understood what you meant.

Donald will be a bit more clued up on this because I know he reads a lot of the 8weeksout stuff but a few things I've noticed:

Joel seems a little ambivalent towards kettlebells. I can't remember the name of the method but he has those intervals where you hammer it for 12 seconds then recover for as long as it takes to get your heart rate back down. It hinges around his view that everyone has different recovery rates and therefore something like Tabata (or indeed any other interval protocol with fixed recovery time) becomes cookie cutter. He favours the spin bike on high resistance. Someone asked if kettlebells would be appropriate (say swings, Russian or American depending on your like see my tedious posts elsewhere :) ). If I recall he didn't think you would get HR up high enough, quickly enough in the time frame.

I've also seen him asked about C2s and he said he had little to no experience with them. I feel there is a lot you can do with a C2 if you want to tune up your engine. On the other hand Rob Shaul of Mountain Athlete/Military Athlete disagrees and feels they have little carry over for his guys.

So we have a few ideas that cost $$$$. Something that can be overlooked with Ross Enamait is his very firmly set low tech approach to training using equipment that is relatively available. And despite what many say Ross is not all out, balls to the wall every time you train by any means. I really like a lot of what I've seen from Joel and it's good to see aerobic work promoted again. Some of us aren't Rich Franklin though, are we?

Just to clarify on my two masters comments: we can get all funky with the hormonal impact of training but a big element is going to be how the fuel gets used. It's perfectly possible to get stronger and run, it's just not optimal for size gains or massive increases in strength. But that's not what you're looking for so go for it.

Donald Lee
03-16-2010, 09:45 AM
Joel seems a little ambivalent towards kettlebells. I can't remember the name of the method but he has those intervals where you hammer it for 12 seconds then recover for as long as it takes to get your heart rate back down. It hinges around his view that everyone has different recovery rates and therefore something like Tabata (or indeed any other interval protocol with fixed recovery time) becomes cookie cutter. He favours the spin bike on high resistance. Someone asked if kettlebells would be appropriate (say swings, Russian or American depending on your like see my tedious posts elsewhere :) ). If I recall he didn't think you would get HR up high enough, quickly enough in the time frame.

I've also seen him asked about C2s and he said he had little to no experience with them. I feel there is a lot you can do with a C2 if you want to tune up your engine. On the other hand Rob Shaul of Mountain Athlete/Military Athlete disagrees and feels they have little carry over for his guys.

So we have a few ideas that cost $$$$. Something that can be overlooked with Ross Enamait is his very firmly set low tech approach to training using equipment that is relatively available. And despite what many say Ross is not all out, balls to the wall every time you train by any means. I really like a lot of what I've seen from Joel and it's good to see aerobic work promoted again. Some of us aren't Rich Franklin though, are we?

Just to clarify on my two masters comments: we can get all funky with the hormonal impact of training but a big element is going to be how the fuel gets used. It's perfectly possible to get stronger and run, it's just not optimal for size gains or massive increases in strength. But that's not what you're looking for so go for it.

Joel has said the C2 doesn't provide enough resistance for the High Intensity Continuous Intervals. I'm positive he would not be against using it for cardiac output stuff.

Regarding kettlebells, it doesn't seem like the way kettlebells are used in America are used in the former Soviet Union. According to Joel, they were used mostly for throwing (i.e., explosive work) or for working the muscles around the ankle (i.e., sticking your foot through it and working your tibialis anterior). Besides those uses, I think kettlebells were used for shows. All the snatching, swinging, and clean and jerking kettlebells seem to have come from that.

Regarding the two masters thing, doing almost daily steady-state work doesn't really take away from strength or muscle mass, as long as it's manageable. Many bodybuilders do a ton of steady-state work. When you start pushing the intensity and/or duration, that's when you start getting problems.

James Evans
03-16-2010, 10:19 AM
Regarding the two masters thing, doing almost daily steady-state work doesn't really take away from strength or muscle mass, as long as it's manageable. Many bodybuilders do a ton of steady-state work. When you start pushing the intensity and/or duration, that's when you start getting problems.

Are we talking walking on the treadmill? Because I don't think that's the kind of conditioning Joe is on about. Going shopping is walking.

Ryan Hagenbuch
03-16-2010, 05:48 PM
As long as you stay with the cardiac output work, you shouldn't see any loss of strength. If anything your recovery will improve, both between workouts and between sets during the workout.

I wrote an article for eliteFTS regarding my experience with the cardiac output method. Just stick with his recommendations (duration, frequency and especially heart rates) and you'll be fine. When you start getting into some of his other aerobic methods (threshold, HICT, etc.), you might start running into recovery problems if you don't plan properly.

My cardiac output article (http://www.elitefts.com/documents/cardiac_output_training.htm)

Donald Lee
03-16-2010, 09:51 PM
Thanks for writing the article Ryan. I'm wondering, do you think your left ventricular volume would have stretched further if you were not lifting weights?

James,

I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but steady state work usually refers to jogging. If you're out of shape or are carrying Brock Lesnar-like muscle mass, then you'd be walking. I cannot get my heart rate very high by walking unless I exert myself a lot (i.e., speed walking) or am wearing a heavy pack.

Allen Yeh
03-17-2010, 04:34 AM
Ryan,

Interesting article, I haven't read up on Joel Jamison or his method at all so I'll take a look at the website you mentioned.

A synopsis of your method for the 9 weeks, lifting and then:
2 days of 1 hour walking or stair climbing getting up to 120
Added 1 day jogging to get up to ~140 and then walking until 120 and repeating. eventually pushing this to 150 and walking until 135

I'm curious what type of exertion you had for those time periods? Was the walking a very fast paced walk? When you started doing the 140 BPM jog do you have any mile/minute estimations? i.e. 8min/mile pace during the jogs...etc

Ryan Hagenbuch
03-17-2010, 05:33 AM
Thanks for writing the article Ryan. I'm wondering, do you think your left ventricular volume would have stretched further if you were not lifting weights?

Possibly, but it's hard to say for sure. Most of the LV improvement comes after the first few months of training, but I'm pretty sure my years of weights and high intensity intervals probably decreased the elasticity to some degree.

Ryan Hagenbuch
03-17-2010, 05:45 AM
Ryan,

Interesting article, I haven't read up on Joel Jamison or his method at all so I'll take a look at the website you mentioned.

A synopsis of your method for the 9 weeks, lifting and then:
2 days of 1 hour walking or stair climbing getting up to 120
Added 1 day jogging to get up to ~140 and then walking until 120 and repeating. eventually pushing this to 150 and walking until 135

I'm curious what type of exertion you had for those time periods? Was the walking a very fast paced walk? When you started doing the 140 BPM jog do you have any mile/minute estimations? i.e. 8min/mile pace during the jogs...etc

I lifted 2x/week followed by cardiac output work and did a third, longer day of just CO work.

I started by walking and then started jogging until I hit upper limit of heart rate and then walked until I hit lower limit of heart rate, repeating until I put my time in. Eventually I would run/walk.

The exertion level was not very high and if I had to do the workout again right after, I would have been able to.

Unfortunately when I did this, I was using a cheap HR monitor that only gave HR and time. I had no idea what my pace was, but like I said, the exertion level wasn't very high and this work was/is very refreshing. Since then I got a Garmin GPS HR monitor and in about an hour I usually cover about 5 miles.

Since I have no interest in becoming an endurance athlete, I have since cut back on this doing 30-45 minutes 3x/week using either my airdyne or jogging after my weight training since this is what my schedule allows.

For the cadiac output work, it doesn't matter what activity you do, as long as you keep your heart rate at 120-150. At times I did bodywt exercise circuits, kettlebell work, or stairs if the weather wasn't nice or I didn't feel like walking. Most of my work was walking/jogging.

A simpler method I now use to stay in the aerobic range is the Maffetone formula.
180 - your age, (for me 142 HR). Don't go above that HR.

Again this is just for my goals. Different goals would require different planning obviously.

Joe Hart
03-17-2010, 07:46 PM
Ryan,

Thanks for posting the article. It was interesting and helpful to figuring out what I was thinking.

Ryan Hagenbuch
03-18-2010, 10:56 AM
Joel wrote 2 articles about the importance of cardiac output training that you may want to check out. He said his heart rate recommendations from the article (second one) were meant for the general population, not athletes.

Understanding the Cardiovascular System, Part 1
(http://www.elitefts.com/documents/cardiovascular_system.htm)
Cardiovascular System Training Principles, Part 2 (http://www.elitefts.com/documents/cardio_training_principles2.htm)

Anton Emery
03-18-2010, 01:18 PM
I have been reading Joel's book, and asked him about KB's on his board. Dont have a sled right at CF Portland, no spin bikes, etc. I forget his protocol, the one where you get your HR up as high as you can for 12 sec, then recover. I figured HR is HR, so i used a 70lb kettlebell for swings. Seemed to work well enough, according to my HR monitor.

At the moment i finished the general endurance block and am about to move onto general strength. I have been trying to incorporate this all into my BJJ practice, which is 3x a week. Does anyone know if Joel suggests 3x additional S&C workouts along with combat sport practice, or should one mix some of these modalities in with your sporting practice? I probably need to go back and look at the book.


Anton

Donald Lee
03-18-2010, 07:04 PM
Does anyone know if Joel suggests 3x additional S&C workouts along with combat sport practice, or should one mix some of these modalities in with your sporting practice? I probably need to go back and look at the book.


Anton

He writes that your MMA training and S&C should be integrated, as in they should be complementary. If you have a tough workout day, then your MMA training that day should be light. As you get closer to a fight, you can use your MMA training as your S&C. I'm not sure if what I wrote is very clear, so if you don't understand what I wrote, let me know.

Joe Hart
03-18-2010, 07:10 PM
So to add to Donald's post.

Joel recommends using MMA technique drills and training (one example sparring) to do your conditioning. So if you can keep your HR in the CO range doing shadow boxing do that. See where take down drills would work. Many of Joel regimines are just HR and time based so if you can keep it there doing MMA stuff all the better. Hopefully I didn't say what Donald said and or made it worse.

Anton Emery
03-18-2010, 11:01 PM
Got it, thanks guys. So basically if i can incorporate one of my aerobic sessions in my Jits practice then i should do that. Sounds good.



Anton

Gant Grimes
03-19-2010, 07:40 AM
A simpler method I now use to stay in the aerobic range is the Maffetone formula.
180 - your age, (for me 142 HR). Don't go above that HR.

If you're doing HR-based training, you really need to find your MHR. I used MHR=(220-age) for awhile until I decided to actually test it out one day. It was off by about 14 BPM, which really skewed my training.

Ryan Hagenbuch
03-19-2010, 08:23 AM
If you're doing HR-based training, you really need to find your MHR. I used MHR=(220-age) for awhile until I decided to actually test it out one day. It was off by about 14 BPM, which really skewed my training.

I'm not interested in that. As I said, I have no desire to become an endurance athlete, just doing the minimum to derive the benefits from this training without effecting my strength training.

If you read my article, you would see I have my master's in ex. phys specializing in cardiopulmonary disease. I am quite aware that the formulas used are just estimates used as guidelines, but for my purposes they will suffice. I have no desire in finding my lactate threshold, VO2 max or any of that other crap (I did those tests at my old job).

I can tell from my body if I am pushing my pace too far/fast and getting into the anaerobic zones. I don't stick to that HR exclusively and if you read up on Maffetone, you would see that the formula changes based on individual situations (training history, etc.).