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Jay Cohen
03-19-2010, 01:47 PM
I know this isnít the optimum forum to post this question, but I value the high level of expertise that residues here. I have also posted over on the Elite Fitness boards under Jim Wendlerís Q&A section?

Iíve followed the SS/PP program for two years, really enjoyed the gains. Currently Iím in my 4th month of the 5/3/1 program and again, enjoying the progress.

Have also added in a 5K training program as I like that distance and going relatively fast, compared to Ĺ and Marathon distances. I also know that this running program hinders my gains somewhat, not sure how much.

Well, I have a friend that has been competing in the Arnold Pump n Runís the last 4 years and really enjoys the training along with the ďpumping and runningĒ. While I have the running program down pretty well, the idea of increasing my bench to the point of being able to do 30 reps at 80% of BW, is somewhat new. BTW, Iím at 170ish, need to Bench 140sih 30 times for maximum bonus deductions. I know that isnít a lot of weight, but Iíve not trained for high reps, nor is my bench my strong suit.

My question is, will following the basic 5/3/1 program get me there, or should I incorporate all the accessory exercises. The program calls for just 1 day of Bench.

Thanks for any and all feedback.

Donald Lee
03-19-2010, 02:21 PM
You have about a year to train, right?

Jay Cohen
03-19-2010, 02:48 PM
You have about a year to train, right?

Yes if I want to nail the Arnold next March, less if I decide to enter some local events to either train or test my conditioning.

Garrett Smith
03-19-2010, 03:04 PM
Initial ideas:

Get some technique training from a PLer on proper benching.

What training program(s) has your buddy done well on?

Wendler's recent article on T-Nation about benching suggests a "narrower" (not close-grip though) width of hands for long-term joint health with benching.

I personally want to bench as little as possible, so I'm doing 5/3/1 with presses, weighted dips, and several higher-rep sets of chest-to-floor pushups.

5/3/1 for bench, maybe working in your actual competition weight on your "5" day for a rep max test once a month.

Donald Lee
03-19-2010, 07:23 PM
With a year to train, all you probably need to worry about for the most part is developing maximal strength. Then, starting maybe 6-8 weeks out you could put maximal strength on maintenance and start doing very high rep work (20+ reps or timed) to develop the capillaries and mitochondria and all that stuff. Then, maybe a week or two later, you could start doing medium high rep work. Looking at some of the articles on Joel's www.8weeksout.com website might give you some ideas (specifically the articles that talk about the Tempo Method and Explosive Repeat Method). He also has a sample 6-week Muscular Endurance program on his forum.

Garrett Smith
03-19-2010, 09:22 PM
What is your bench max now? Or a rep max?

Jay Cohen
03-20-2010, 04:24 AM
Don;
Thanks for the advice and website link.

Garrett, as to your first post, agree about getting my technique down. Local PL guy in town runs a solid gym, plan to pay him a visit.

Current max bench is appx 205, that's what my spreadsheet calculates, have not lifted that much.

Thanks again guys.

Jay

Derek Simonds
03-20-2010, 04:54 AM
That is a really interesting competition. I am focused on my pressing, both bench and overhead and Gant had suggested that for my accessory work on 5/3/1 I do hypertrophy sets. So on press days I do sets of 10-12 on bench, on bench days I do sets of 10-12 on press. He had made a great point that the tricep is a limiting factor in a lot of pressing movements. I have made the most gains ever using this method. I don't do any other accessory work at all.

I have been using the more narrow grip on the bench for almost 2 years now and it has made a huge difference. I would say that I bench as close as I can come to how Wendler teaches it without him actually training me. It has made a ton of difference in how I feel.

This week I benched 165 for 10 on Monday after setting a press PR and then yesterday I benched 215 X 5 another pr and pressed 95 X 12, 10. It just kind of flows with the 5/3/1 stuff. You can ask Gant about it or check my log to see my progress using it. I would bet that you could easily adjust it as Donald suggested starting about 8 weeks out to the really high rep ranges 20+ but I would start working 10+ into my program now.

Dave Van Skike
03-20-2010, 09:20 AM
try a density training block and see how you do. have had recent success using this progression.

two weeks of density work
two weeks of ladders
two weeks working up to a new 1RM... for your high rep goal, i'd think

density block
ladder block, 3*(3,6,9)
531, three weeks but set your % to hit something more like 20,15,10.

or...do the smart thing and get your 1rm to about 275-280 and then do 4 weeks of specific rep work and rule...

also. this is a very old thread from dragon door.

http://appliedstrength.blogspot.com/2007/11/here-is-original-density-training-post.html

I've used to get my pullups out of the basement, went from a 5 reps max to 18reps in about a month and a half at a flubbery 220 bodyweight

Derek Weaver
03-20-2010, 06:09 PM
First, that's a good blog post from Dave.

Second, nothing to add per se, but I think it has some carryover to what guys have to do to prepare for the Bench Test at the NFL Combine.

I remember Dave Tate saying something to the effect that if you have 225 on the bar, press it like it's 225. Don't go crazy attacking it like it's 365, you'll burn out too quickly.

More of a mention on proper mindset when the rep test actually happens.

Jay Cohen
03-21-2010, 06:04 AM
Derek/Dave;
Appreciate the feedback and I'll check out the Applied Strength article, btw, Brett Jones lives in Pittsburgh, we've chatted on the phone, great guy.

Derek, interesting you mentioned that type of assistance work, here is a paste for part of the 5/3/1 program:. I do not do the leg curls, db rows, but try to get in the other stuff, are you suggesting that I should switch up and do standing press assistance work on bench day and bench assit work on press?

Here is the "Strength" template assistance work from the book:

Squat Day
Squat: 5x10x50%
Lug Curls: 5x10

Bench Press Day
Bench Press: 5x10x50%
DB Rows: 5x10

Deadlift Day
Deadlift: 5x8x50%
Hanging Leg Raises: 5x12

Mil. Press Day
Mil. Press: 5x10x50%
Chins: 5 sets to failure.

Matt Wichlinski
03-21-2010, 07:11 AM
after your pressing work, do weighted ring pushups, with chains around the neck, for max reps and maybe go for a short run between sets

another assistance exercise i like to do is hanging a kettlebell from my waist via chain or belt and do pushups in the rack with hands on the bar and feet elevated high enough to not let the bell hit the ground.

you'll get a ton of trunk stability here as it feels like someone is standing on your back while doing pushups, don't sag at all

Donald Lee
03-21-2010, 07:30 AM
Derek/Dave;
Appreciate the feedback and I'll check out the Applied Strength article, btw, Brett Jones lives in Pittsburgh, we've chatted on the phone, great guy.

Derek, interesting you mentioned that type of assistance work, here is a paste for part of the 5/3/1 program:. I do not do the leg curls, db rows, but try to get in the other stuff, are you suggesting that I should switch up and do standing press assistance work on bench day and bench assit work on press?

Here is the "Strength" template assistance work from the book:

Squat Day
Squat: 5x10x50%
Lug Curls: 5x10

Bench Press Day
Bench Press: 5x10x50%
DB Rows: 5x10

Deadlift Day
Deadlift: 5x8x50%
Hanging Leg Raises: 5x12

Mil. Press Day
Mil. Press: 5x10x50%
Chins: 5 sets to failure.

I like mixing up each day's work. For example, if I have a lower body day, I'll do Back Squat, Deadlift Assistance, and Back Squat Supplemental. Or, Deadlift, Back Squat Assistance, and Deadlift Supplemental. If I were training the Military Press and Bench Press, I'd do a similar setup. I haven't read 5/3/1 in a while, but I'm assuming you train something like M, T, Th, Fri. Although you train some of the same muscles twice per week, IMO, you get better progress with something like my setup vs. blasting each movement once per week. BTW, my setup is taken from Reactive Training System.

Assistance work is generally a low-rep variation, while supplemental work is high rep stuff. For supplemental work for the upper body, I tend to like more isolation exercises. I've done JM Press, Bradford Press, and BB Curls. Since recovery may be an issue, I'd choose at least one assistance or supplemental exercise per workout. I like Derek's idea.

Derek Simonds
03-21-2010, 12:25 PM
It's really Gant's idea I just have ran with it and had the best results of my life on pressing.

On Bench day I do whatever the set / rep scheme is required and then do sets of press with 10 reps. On press day just the opposite whatever the set / rep scheme is then bench with 10 reps.

Here is last Mondays training

Press 45 X 5, 5, 75 X 5, 105 X 5, 115 X 3, 130 X 3 (Freaking Huge PR!)
P/U 6, 6, 6, 5, 5

Bench 45 X 10, 10, 95 X 10, 135 X 10, 155 X 10, 165 X 10
DB Rows 50 X12, 65 X 12, 12, 20

Whenever I press I always superset it with a pulling movement.

Hope that explains it.

Dave Van Skike
03-21-2010, 01:26 PM
after your pressing work, do weighted ring pushups, with chains around the neck, for max reps and maybe go for a short run between sets

another assistance exercise i like to do is hanging a kettlebell from my waist via chain or belt and do pushups in the rack with hands on the bar and feet elevated high enough to not let the bell hit the ground.

you'll get a ton of trunk stability here as it feels like someone is standing on your back while doing pushups, don't sag at all

i like your style matt. i'm gonna steal these ideas.

donald, i echo your comments re: the mixing it up i.e. more frequent practice.

i had a good run doing a 531thing two days a week with press/sq then dl assist, tricep movement, then floor press/dl/sq assist &oh assist..very similar. made easier by splittign into two workouts a day.

Jay Cohen
03-22-2010, 05:14 AM
Thanks Guys.
I'll keep ya posted on my progress.
Jay

Mike ODonnell
03-22-2010, 08:56 AM
Check around sites like DeFranco who trains guys for the combine where they have to do 225lbs for reps. May find specific workouts listed there. Also the Pavel GTG thing may come in handy.

Jay Cohen
03-22-2010, 10:23 AM
Check around sites like DeFranco who trains guys for the combine where they have to do 225lbs for reps. May find specific workouts listed there. Also the Pavel GTG thing may come in handy.

Thanks Mike, I have looked at Franco's site, and Pavel is always interesting.
Jay

Jay Cohen
03-23-2010, 10:33 AM
Reply from Jim Wendler, nice that he took the time to reply.

3/23/2010 11:47:04 AM - Jay Been following your program for 4 months, plan to follow for many months to come. Plan to enter some pump and runs, need to bench 80% of my weight, 30 times. Current weight 170, I know 137 isn't much, but as of now, I can get 10-15,depending who's screaming at me. If I just follow the program will that be enough? Thanks very much.

Jay,

Id make sure to practice the test (or at least high reps) to get the timing, breathing, feel and cadence down.

But even if you don't do it, you'll be fine. Just concentrate on getting cock strong and in shape