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Ryan Dell Whitley
03-31-2010, 07:42 AM
I searched a bit...didn't see exactly the question I was wondering about.

My eating window is from 12:00OPM to 8:00PM. However, I workout around 5:00 AM. Do I need to eat something after working out, and if so what should I eat?

Thanks.

Adolfo Riveron
03-31-2010, 06:13 PM
I searched a bit...didn't see exactly the question I was wondering about.

My eating window is from 12:00OPM to 8:00PM. However, I workout around 5:00 AM. Do I need to eat something after working out, and if so what should I eat?

Thanks.

I can imagine lifting before noon...mornings are for sleeping.

I eat postworkout if my workout is centered around strength/lifting/muscle building...etc which is 85-95% of my workouts. Or I will eat immediatly pre-workout when I workout at night and start a fast after that meal. Those fasts are usually shorter though, 14-15 hours. I think I remember Lonnie Lowery citing a study which suggested a preworkout meal/protein is just as or more anabolic than a postworkout meal or something similar on an episode of Iron Radio. ( I optimally wouldnt do this but i can only snatch and CJ at night in my gym or i get kicked out. If i am not doing these then i will try to lift during the window, schedule premitting.)

If it is a more fat loss based workout, then I will go by how my body feels. If im not hungry then I dont sweat it. If im hungry then I eat.

In summary:
-Depends on the workout
-My suggestion would be to only fast on non workout days unless you start training at night.

Hope my opinion helps, Mike will probably chime in with better advice.

Derek Weaver
03-31-2010, 09:14 PM
What does your workout schedule look like?

Donald Lee
03-31-2010, 11:06 PM
Take 10 grams of BCAA pre-workout.

http://leangains.blogspot.com/2009/12/fasted-training-boosts-muscle-growth.html

http://leangains.blogspot.com/2009/12/pre-workout-protein-boosts-metabolism.html

Ryan Dell Whitley
04-01-2010, 03:43 AM
What does your workout schedule look like?

I lift 4 days a week and am currently training for my first Olympic Weightlifting meet. I am in the Army, so afterwards I do PT with my company, but it isn't very strenuous.

Donald Lee
04-01-2010, 11:26 AM
Oh man, I didn't realize how funky your workout and eating schedule was.

Are you unable to do something like a 8 am - 4 pm schedule?

Ryan Dell Whitley
04-01-2010, 11:57 AM
That would be better...but it is important for me to eat dinner with my wife and daughter every night. That is why I lift in the morning...after work I to just do family stuff.

IF might not be the best fit for me, and if so that's OK. I have just recently been doing IF for about two months because of some training I was doing where I couldn't eat all morning. I'll just have to experiment.

Derek Weaver
04-01-2010, 06:08 PM
What's the purpose of implementing IF? Simplicity? Health?

Willem Koster
04-01-2010, 11:47 PM
What's the purpose of implementing IF? Simplicity? Health?

Some people claim health.

For me it's just a simple strategy to make dieting easier. Any potential health benefits are just bonus.

Derek Weaver
04-02-2010, 12:25 AM
Some people claim health.

For me it's just a simple strategy to make dieting easier. Any potential health benefits are just bonus.

Sorry, I should have meant what is the OP's purpose or intent. I'm well experienced with IF.

Tend to be a bigger fan of Eat Stop Eat than the other options, although I do tend to skip breakfast nearly every day and eat a big lunch and 2-3 times after work.

Ryan Dell Whitley
04-02-2010, 07:08 AM
I like it because it keeps me relatively lean without feeling hungry or having to really geek out about my diet.

Allen Yeh
04-02-2010, 07:23 AM
I'd definitely look into BCAA's, Derek posted the links to the leangains blog and while not an Oly guy he's definitely a fasting guy.

If you still aren't recovering well enough perhaps you should consider alternating the fast days. On really hard days have a regular day, on light/rest days fast as you already do.

Last year I typically just fasted until lunch, PT isn't too strenuous. Then again I wasn't training before PT either. I did the vast majority of my training in the afternoon.

Donald Lee
04-02-2010, 10:02 AM
I just thought of an idea, Ryan.

Why don't you try 10 grams of BCAA's pre and post workout. BCAA's are not supposed to effect your fasted state for some reason. They don't get digested.

Derek Weaver
04-02-2010, 10:13 AM
The cortisol issue after intense workouts could be tough though. Vitamin c after a workout is supposed to blunt this I think.

Allen Yeh
04-02-2010, 10:14 AM
I meant Donald posted the links. Sorry about that.

Donald Lee
04-02-2010, 11:26 AM
The cortisol issue after intense workouts could be tough though. Vitamin c after a workout is supposed to blunt this I think.

Carbs blunt cortisol. If you're fasting, you can't get around it.

Mike ODonnell
04-02-2010, 11:54 AM
I'm doing my drive-by points on IF...as many were already covered:

- IF is just a tool and not a diet, make it work to your lifestyle ...and it doesn't need to be everyday
- Make sure you are getting in enough protein everyday
- Many do IF on non-workout days and eat bigger meals of mostly protein (and less calories than workout days)
- You will of course need to gauge performance and body composition and whether you need to adjust IF days, calorie intake, etc.
- You can take weekends off too and just eat more flexible
- You can also do Warrior diet style on workout days and eat light all day and a bigger meal at night

As for fasted workouts and cortisol, try the brand "Chained Out" BCAAs pre and during the day...as it is supposed to have a cortisol blocking agent (of course I can't verify this...but talking to someone who works for them and knows his sh*t, people are seeing results using it...and doing no other changes to their diet/workouts).
http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=15691

On a side note...unless you are a bodybuilder, I think many worry too much about cortisol...as it is a natural process and has a half life of like 2 hours (unless you are one stressed out person). Much like autophagy, where you recycle proteins (especially damaged ones) is a factor in longevity/health. There are also theories of protein pulsing and how the body can upregulate protein synthesis when needed to over 24 hours if you have the protein to use. So in a sense....making sure you get enough protein in every day is still your top priority. Then dump some BCAAs in a big water jug and carry it around all day to sip on it. Adjust all other macronutrients/calories around it to meet you performance/body comp goals. It's really not all that hard, just need to keep it simple and know when things need to be changed up.

Mike ODonnell
04-02-2010, 12:01 PM
Carbs blunt cortisol. If you're fasting, you can't get around it.

Fasting will also increase GH, which has a protein sparing effect. As long as you are still eating enough protein each day, I don't see this being a major concern for most people (of course there are exceptions for every rule such as people looking to go into bodybuilding or have an extremely high activity level...like athletes).

Donald Lee
04-02-2010, 04:10 PM
I don't see acute elevations in cortisol as a problem either. This is something Matthew Perryman wrote:

Diet is the first key regulator of protein balance. Even in the presence of catabolic hormones, we’ve seen that the anabolic effects of amino acid (AA) intake can help to counteract protein breakdown, with and without carbohydrate (CHO) intake (Hammarqvist et al, 1994; Rankin et al, 2004; Bird et al, 2006b; Baty et al, 2007).

The issue is that fasting is also catabolic.

I suggest you try the BCAA pre and post workout and see how it goes.

Derek Weaver
04-02-2010, 05:51 PM
Didn't Martin Berkhan have a post a while back about BCAA's being fairly insulinogenic (sp? Is this a word?)

I have heard various people on the interwebz make mention that insulin is as much an anti-catabolic hormone as it is a storage hormone.

If the primarily goal of fasting is to (VERY GENERALLY SPEAKING) a) give the body a break from digestion and b) to cause a temporary drop in insulin, doesn't the presence of BCAA's mess with at least half of the equation?

I'm too lazy to look right now, but I thought that Martin noted that if a workout was done fasted, BCAA's pre-WO were a good idea assuming adequate PWO nutrition in a reasonable time frame was implemented?

/hijack

Donald Lee
04-02-2010, 07:25 PM
From my understanding, this is Martin Berkham's reasoning for fasted training + pre-workout BCAA intake.

1. Fasted training upregulates myogenic transcription factors, with the greatest effect being on p70s6 kinase, versus fed training. This means that amino acids ingested post-workout will be shuttled into the muscles faster. This may have to do with high carb intake pre-workout or high insulin levels interfering with gene expression necessary for anabolic adaptations.

2. Fasting is catabolic. At about the 16 hour of fasting mark, through gluconeogenesis your body is oxidizing 50% fat and 50% protein. As a compensatory mechanism though, protein synthesis is upregulated per #1.

3. "Pre-workout protein blunts cortisol throughout the day, which is another effect not seen fasted or with carbs only. In this context, lower cortisol could boost metabolic activity of muscle protein synthesis by allowing it to go on unscathed (cortisol increase protein breakdown and decrease synthesis)."

4. "Older studies show that consuming pre-workout protein increase protein synthesis far more effectively than pre-workout carbs. This effect is due to shuttling amino acids to the working muscles, which in turn may increases protein synthesis for up to 48 hours. It goes without saying that if no dietary amino acids are present at this time, the effect would be blunted, which is what occurs if one would work out completely fasted or with carbs only."

5. "I argued that the need for pre-workout protein intake was due to this being a case where the benefits (increased protein synthesis) simply outweighted the negatives (insulin increase; low insulin being a determinant of the fasting state). It's also known that BCAAs independently affects the same myogenic pathway through which fasted training may increase protein synthesis in response to post-workout nutrition." ***This is the double whammy p70s6 kinase he talks about in one of the links I posted.***

"With BCAA you get the aminos needed for protein synthesis without the insulin and caloric load brought on by whey protein. Low insulin = the fasted state. You pretty much answered your own question in that you would have to consume 40 g of whey to get the same amount of BCAA I recommend (a recommendation based on a study where 10 g elicited the maximal effect). Then again, one could question what the real world implications would be in comparing whey and BCAA in this context. I hardly doubt this is a deal breaker in any way. Then again, if you wan't to optimize everything, BCAA is the way to go."

6. "The higher REE observed in the protein-supplemented experiment can be explained by increased muscle protein synthesis, which is a metabolically costly process." ***REE = Resting Energy Expenditure***

Garrett Smith
04-02-2010, 08:31 PM
I'm doing my drive-by points on IF...as many were already covered:

- IF is just a tool and not a diet, make it work to your lifestyle ...and it doesn't need to be everyday
- Make sure you are getting in enough protein everyday
- Many do IF on non-workout days and eat bigger meals of mostly protein (and less calories than workout days)
- You will of course need to gauge performance and body composition and whether you need to adjust IF days, calorie intake, etc.
- You can take weekends off too and just eat more flexible
- You can also do Warrior diet style on workout days and eat light all day and a bigger meal at night

As for fasted workouts and cortisol, try the brand "Chained Out" BCAAs pre and during the day...as it is supposed to have a cortisol blocking agent (of course I can't verify this...but talking to someone who works for them and knows his sh*t, people are seeing results using it...and doing no other changes to their diet/workouts).
http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=15691

On a side note...unless you are a bodybuilder, I think many worry too much about cortisol...as it is a natural process and has a half life of like 2 hours (unless you are one stressed out person). Much like autophagy, where you recycle proteins (especially damaged ones) is a factor in longevity/health. There are also theories of protein pulsing and how the body can upregulate protein synthesis when needed to over 24 hours if you have the protein to use. So in a sense....making sure you get enough protein in every day is still your top priority. Then dump some BCAAs in a big water jug and carry it around all day to sip on it. Adjust all other macronutrients/calories around it to meet you performance/body comp goals. It's really not all that hard, just need to keep it simple and know when things need to be changed up.
Just a couple of things. Cortisol is a natural process. The way us "modern" humans have figured out ways to keep it high nearly all day long is the problem, and many lifestyles and workout choices only contribute to the problem.

Two. I was interested in that Chain'd Out until I found out it had not one, but TWO different artificial sweeteners in it. I'll let other people have the headaches, I'll pass.

Lastly, in regards to the OP post. I did just fine with NO PWO (in particular, sometimes not eating for hours afterward) until I decided I wanted to gain weight. Now I need to change my approach. I was doing fine strength-wise with no particular PWO nutrition...but now I want to gain some muscular BW, and I don't think that approach will work with my particular brand of IF at this time, so I'm eating more often.

Greg Davis
05-13-2010, 03:02 AM
I don't think that approach will work with my particular brand of IF at this time, so I'm eating more often.

Doc, as always, interested to hear any thoughts you have on what is/has worked for you in your quest to move up in BW.

Andy Foster
02-27-2011, 04:20 PM
Howdy, hope its ok to ask a related question here (didn't want to create a new thread)

I feed from 12noon-8pm, but often engage in physical activity after that. This is typically jogging or squash, usually between 9pm-11pm.

I don't pretend to really understand IF theory so I'm a little uncomfortable about going into a fast straight after exercise (in the case of squash, fairly intensive). My question is, is this post-feed exercise detrimental behaviour, and if so do I have any options to mitigate it?

I experimented with trying to move my feed phase to 4-12 or thereabouts, but was not able to maintain it as I'd get very hungry at work, and do normally enjoy grabbing lunch with colleagues (yeah, lifestyle sacrifices and all that)

Arien Malec
02-27-2011, 07:21 PM
My guess is that, if you eat from 12-8, you've got a ton of digestion feeding protein and such into your bloodstream during your exercise.