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Allen Yeh
04-16-2010, 10:08 AM
From this article:
http://www.tmuscle.com/issues/622/622.jsp#the_tao_of_boyle

As always Mike Boyle has his moments of "huh?" but IMO he knows his stuff even if I personally don't agree with some items.


Or the flipside, you have the Crossfit guys who are just going to shit kick you until you can't move. That's just as bad. We've got uneducated trainers who don't challenge their clients and uneducated trainers who try to kill their clients.

I just thought that comment was pretty damn funny.

The trap-bar deadlift is probably the best lower-body exercise. I think it's clearly the best bilateral exercise, since you're engaging your erectors and your traps much more than in a squat.

I end all my sessions with conditioning. TMUSCLE readers aren't doing enough of it, either. If you're comfortable, or are doing long, slow cardio you can pretty much conclude it's a waste of time. Any young, fit guy should finish his conditioning and have to lie on the floor thinking, "God, that was awful."

Grissim Connery
04-16-2010, 11:37 AM
The trap-bar deadlift is probably the best lower-body exercise. I think it's clearly the best bilateral exercise, since you're engaging your erectors and your traps much more than in a squat.

how do you guy's feel about this?

Why from a hang instead of the floor? Size differences. Olympic lifting favors shorter people. Suddenly when you're teaching the snatch to a football lineman, they have a hard time addressing the bar on the floor. It's also more practical to do it from the hang since it spares the back.

i have a somewhat stout build, and i find everything hang to be more draining. how do you guys feel about this?

The close-grip hang snatch is the best power movement you can do. But you have to do them with a clean grip to spare your shoulders. The only reason guys do it with a wide grip is to use more weight, since it decreases the distance the bar has to travel.

thoughts on this?

Derek Weaver
04-16-2010, 02:43 PM
Regarding trap bar, awesome. I really like them and wish I had one.

WRT the oly lifts from the hang, I also agree in terms of using them in a team setting. The tall guys may have more issues with a proper setup, but the bigger issue is execution and safety. It's easier to teach lifts from the hang than the ground.

Garrett Smith
04-16-2010, 03:44 PM
Any young, fit guy should finish his conditioning and have to lie on the floor thinking, "God, that was awful."
Screw that. That's what Mike Caviston referred to as "drama queens".

Robert Callahan
04-16-2010, 03:45 PM
Snatch grip is about flexibility not moving more weight at least for me and the people I have coached. I have had one or two athletes that could overhead squat with a clean grip, the vast majority, including myself, have to go wider.

Brian DeGennaro
04-16-2010, 04:07 PM
Any young, fit guy should finish his conditioning and have to lie on the floor thinking, "God, that was awful."


Sounds like CrossFit...

Steve Shafley
04-16-2010, 07:24 PM
There's a whole lot of crap associated with Boyle. I view him more as a marketer than anything else at this point.

Take the trap bar statement for instance.

I like them, no doubt. But "best lower body exercise"? I wouldn't necessarily argue with that statement, but I've got to ask "for what"?

Because, it's not the best lower body exercise if you want leg strength and hypertrophy. It's not the best lower body exercise if you need to beef your hips up. Or your lower back.

It's a compromise of an exercise, and that's OK, as long as you understand why, and know what you are trying to get at.

Brian DeGennaro
04-16-2010, 08:40 PM
Everything has its place in anyone's training, just depends on who and what.

I don't like clean grip snatches because you need to use your arms and shoulders to lift it overhead more than in a regular snatch, especially beginners. Only people i know who do them right are real lifters. If using a regular snatch grip is messing people's shoulders up, it's because you are teaching them the snatch wrong.

Kevin Perry
04-16-2010, 09:07 PM
Screw that. That's what Mike Caviston referred to as "drama queens".


Seriously, that's my biggest turn off about CF and any workout that says a person should be lying on the ground feeling like shit is a shitty workout that has no place in a persons training.

Derek Weaver
04-16-2010, 09:24 PM
Regarding conditioning, meh. People are so anti crossfit (I'm in this group) that they view any statement that's close to it as a problem.

Pushing the prowler, or sprinting up stadium bleachers will f-you up. Not very crossfitty, but still heave inducing. An intelligently designed suck fest certainly has its place if conditioning needs to be a focus.

Steve said it well noting that he's primarily a marketer. I actually like a fair amount of what he says, although maybe for different reasons than he does.

I remember a podcast with him a while back where he and the host were going over the successful hockey season they had at BU (I think Frozen Four in '09?) and the remarkably low number of games missed due to injury. He gets his guys in shape and injury free.

Kevin Perry
04-16-2010, 11:57 PM
Ok I took that as an opportunity to cap my haterade on Cf some. I'm open minded for smarter conditioning sessions that induce a pile of suck for specific goals.

Chris Forbis
04-17-2010, 06:25 AM
The close-grip hang snatch is the best power movement you can do. But you have to do them with a clean grip to spare your shoulders. The only reason guys do it with a wide grip is to use more weight, since it decreases the distance the bar has to travel.
thoughts on this?

Didn't Dan John say something of this nature one time?

Mike ODonnell
04-17-2010, 10:36 AM
I like his statements:

I wrote an article called "An Apology Letter to Personal Trainers." I've been telling them how to do their job for years and never trained a single non-athlete. Over the past few years I've started to, and it's hard work.

I think personal training is much more difficult than working with athletes. We've got 2 hours per week to counteract the other 166 hours of the week. It's not a good ratio to try and make changes.

and

All the guys who get mad at me on the Internet, I just want to say, come talk to me when you're 40.

Both so true.


Pushing the prowler, or sprinting up stadium bleachers will f-you up. Not very crossfitty, but still heave inducing. An intelligently designed suck fest certainly has its place if conditioning needs to be a focus.

There is definitely a personality mindset as well. Anything long, slow and steady is usually boring and torture for me to want to do. Put me on the ice for a shift and I want to skate hard for 60-90 seconds till I am about to puke, then come off and rest, and go again. It's just how I am wired.....but I can't do that 5x/week either. I do things now in life for enjoyment, not just for conditioning (although that comes with doing enough suck-fest hockey shifts or mountain bike hill sprints).

Then again...I'm not going to do anything that is going to injury me either when it comes to other training....as that is just stupid (as until you really suffer a bad injury that leaves you on the sidelines for months, you can't appreciate that factor enough).


I remember a podcast with him a while back where he and the host were going over the successful hockey season they had at BU (I think Frozen Four in '09?) and the remarkably low number of games missed due to injury. He gets his guys in shape and injury free.

"Injury free" should be the goal of any real professional S&C coach.....as needing to explain to a college or professional team how you f***'d up their athlete. is the quickest path to unemployment in that industry. Hence I would tend to listen to people who do train professional athletes for more than 5+ years....as they probably are doing it the smart way.


....and how Mike Boyle got an article published over there that didn't push taking Anaconda or Surge I'll never know.

Derek Weaver
04-17-2010, 05:23 PM
"Injury free" should be the goal of any real professional S&C coach.....as needing to explain to a college or professional team how you f***'d up their athlete. is the quickest path to unemployment in that industry. Hence I would tend to listen to people who do train professional athletes for more than 5+ years....as they probably are doing it the smart way.


....and how Mike Boyle got an article published over there that didn't push taking Anaconda or Surge I'll never know.

Regarding injuries, exactly. He has a few pro guys he works with I think, but to keep a hockey team that healthy speaks volumes. He is good at what he does with a successful team. Since I've never trained a high level athletic team, I am not going to argue with him.

I think he deserves the most credit for getting that article/interview published without a t-mag reference (at least in terms of products). Impressive feat these days.

Donald Lee
04-17-2010, 06:58 PM
Regarding injuries, exactly. He has a few pro guys he works with I think, but to keep a hockey team that healthy speaks volumes. He is good at what he does with a successful team. Since I've never trained a high level athletic team, I am not going to argue with him.

I think he deserves the most credit for getting that article/interview published without a t-mag reference (at least in terms of products). Impressive feat these days.

I've never played hockey, so that's my little caveat. I think with a lot of sports, the athletes are just so great and skilled already that good special strength training doesn't make or break them performance-wise. With such cases, injury prevention is probably the most important difference maker.

With more normal athletes, special strength training can probably make a bigger difference in performance.

Dave Van Skike
04-17-2010, 07:11 PM
i want to like mike boyle. i want to feel like i learned something. i don't and i didn't.

i'm one of the guys who wants to say say "screw the OL lifts"...worser even than blasphemy, I want to say the "squat ain't the end all and be all" ( more of my strongman buddies who are past their 40's find the squat is they thing they get the most of dropping)

sadly, a lot of this is shit stirring. the OL's work even if you are old and perform them poorly, the squat works, and the trap bar is a compromise that lets people load up a lot of weight and learn how NOT to deadlift. i could make a better case for doing farmers walk in place of the trap bar dl.

Grissim Connery
04-18-2010, 01:37 AM
( more of my strongman buddies who are past their 40's find the squat is they thing they get the most of dropping)
.

wait, what? grammar caught me there

Steve Shafley
04-18-2010, 06:40 AM
Will Heffernan, who owns/operates Informed Performance in Dublin, said something like this: "I don't know how these guys can make multi-disk DVD sets, write blogs and books, and keep answering questions on their paid forums. I have barely enough time to keep on top of my athletes' training and my own training."

With the huge upsurge in hiring assistance to put together material (as per Ferris' 4 Hour Work Week) I often wonder if any given guru's material is indeed their material, or the product of someone else and then given the guru's stamp of approval.

Garrett Smith
04-18-2010, 08:48 AM
Will Heffernan, who owns/operates Informed Performance in Dublin, said something like this: "I don't know how these guys can make multi-disk DVD sets, write blogs and books, and keep answering questions on their paid forums. I have barely enough time to keep on top of my athletes' training and my own training."

With the huge upsurge in hiring assistance to put together material (as per Ferris' 4 Hour Work Week) I often wonder if any given guru's material is indeed their material, or the product of someone else and then given the guru's stamp of approval.
In another field, for example, I have been told that Dr. Weil has tons of ghostwriters working for him.

Allen Yeh
04-18-2010, 09:40 AM
Regarding conditioning, meh. People are so anti crossfit (I'm in this group) that they view any statement that's close to it as a problem.

Pushing the prowler, or sprinting up stadium bleachers will f-you up. Not very crossfitty, but still heave inducing. An intelligently designed suck fest certainly has its place if conditioning needs to be a focus.



+1 on this statement about the conditioning. It seems that people have such a strong anti-CF bias that it colors their view about conditioning.

Mike ODonnell
04-18-2010, 12:08 PM
Will Heffernan, who owns/operates Informed Performance in Dublin, said something like this: "I don't know how these guys can make multi-disk DVD sets, write blogs and books, and keep answering questions on their paid forums. I have barely enough time to keep on top of my athletes' training and my own training."

With the huge upsurge in hiring assistance to put together material (as per Ferris' 4 Hour Work Week) I often wonder if any given guru's material is indeed their material, or the product of someone else and then given the guru's stamp of approval.

Get a group of professional million dollar athletes/actors as clients....train them a couple hours a day...charge them $300/hr and you have the rest of the day to do whatever you want. Or only train large groups like 15+ kids in some huge circuit for an hour charging them all $30/hr (paid for by parents or school).

Something tells Mike Boyle and other guys like him out there such as Juan Carlos Santana who pump out DVDs/seminars...their gyms are empty most of the day, and they are not doing the non-superstar 1-on-1 training, some dude getting paid $15/hr is. All the huge sport specific places here in Atlanta are typically dead until school lets out.

The more info/DVDs you put out ----> the more people assume you are an expert -----> the more you charge -----> gives you time to put out more DVDs ----> and the cycle continues on and on until you are a trainer on the biggest loser and have peaked.

Jay Ashman
04-18-2010, 12:29 PM
Regarding the trap bar statement he made....

the trap bar is great as an assistance lift to either deads or squats but not the "best" lift for lower body. Deadlifts create more power, squats create more overall leg power. Trap bar deads have your legs in a higher than parallel position and thus can't mimic a squat, and it isn't a true deadlift because you are essentially squatting from the floor.

I like trap bars for kids and young athletes because it is far easier to teach them first on that then move to proper deadlifts than start from the DL immediately. After a few weeks with that we usually move to deads and the learning curve is easier.

This is all my opinion so don't mind me. :)

As far as Boyle goes, I respect his knowledge but he is a marketer, bigtime and that is obvious...

Mike:Or only train large groups like 15+ kids in some huge circuit for an hour charging them all $30/hr (paid for by parents or school).

That is what I do on the weekends. Every Saturday I take two groups of young FB players out and drill them to get ready for camp. Its amazing how competitive parents are with youth sports.

Dave Van Skike
04-18-2010, 06:43 PM
wait, what? grammar caught me there

very likely i was drunk when i wrote that.

what i meant to say is this. I want to agree with Boyle specifically when he took on the back squat as holy grail in S&C. I know a lot of really really strong guys with high mileage knees who have dropped squatting in favor of other things and do quite well. I've gone months front squatting only and watched my other lifts go crazy...and I'm a shitty front squatter for my size. I know a number of masters strongmen who will only back squat from a box and with chains and bands and these are guys who are putting 300 overhead for reps, running with 7-800 pound yokes so you can't exactly call them weak.

OTOH, I've never seen a person who banged out sets of 5 on the back squat @ 405 who wasn't all around pretty strong. so i could be wrong about the squat. ymmv.

Derek Weaver
04-18-2010, 09:40 PM
I think that most people have a problem with Boyle because of his view on the back squat. I admit that I'm intrigued by the "bilateral deficit", but don't really know where I stand.

Regarding him being a marketer. Yeah, he is. He's found a way to make a nice living in addition to what I'm guessing is a well paying job at BU.

However, as I said before, he's gotten results with his athletes. Making a blanket statement about the trap bar being the best bilateral exercise is kinda stupid, because like Shaf said, "for what?". With your average, uncoordinated high schooler or immobile desk jockey, it's a great compromise between the squat and deadlift. For the competitive lifter, not so much.

His client base isn't PL or Oly men and women though.

I know that I tend to come off as a Boyle apologist, which isn't the case. I do think that he's got a lot of good stuff that people tend to brush off because of the delivery and his business model.

Allen Yeh
04-19-2010, 03:57 AM
Controversial, yep. Someone can be controversial and still know what they are talking about in certain aspects though right? Just look at a recent blowup with Lyle Mcdonald, does that make the information he had put out any less valid? Maybe less...palptable but not less valid.

Brian DeGennaro
04-19-2010, 06:24 AM
Controversy gets more people reading about him.

Nothing against Boyle at all myself, just a few raised eyebrows. You can't always agree with EVERYTHING people say, don't want to become a sheeple.

John Kimbrough
03-20-2014, 08:42 AM
thanks for the link. Another intersting read

Blake Barnes
03-21-2014, 11:29 AM
Will Heffernan, who owns/operates Informed Performance in Dublin, said something like this: "I don't know how these guys can make multi-disk DVD sets, write blogs and books, and keep answering questions on their paid forums. I have barely enough time to keep on top of my athletes' training and my own training."

With the huge upsurge in hiring assistance to put together material (as per Ferris' 4 Hour Work Week) I often wonder if any given guru's material is indeed their material, or the product of someone else and then given the guru's stamp of approval.

There's a whole lot of crap associated with Boyle. I view him more as a marketer than anything else at this point.



These pretty much sum it up. I think you have to take everything that guy says with a grain of salt. Especially if you watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYuQOijliac). If I remember correctly, he later went back to [bilateral] Squats and decided they were ok to do (maybe it was when his athletes were losing a lot of strength?).