PDA

View Full Version : when to go heavy and when to go long


matthew brewster
04-25-2010, 02:00 AM
Hi Folks hope your all well.
Im looking for some help with integrating conditioning with the strength training template laid out in the relative intensity article.
For those who aren't familiar with it, it lays out a strength training programme of percentages laid out over a week.

1 rep max
5x4 75 %
5x3 80%
3x3 85%
5x1 90%

My question with regards to mixing in conditioning workouts is when to go heavy and short and when to go lighter and longer.

Would i be correct in thinking that on light high volume days such as 5x4 @ 80%
im better doing something short and heavy in the 3 - 5 min range ? ie. 5 deadlift 10 burpee 4 rounds.

And on a heavy low volume day such as 5x1 @90% a longer body weight workout such as 15 mins of cindy or a tabata would fit nicely ?

or am i miles away ?

I may well be over thinking this as i do suffer from over analysis a lot of the time but I'm keen to maximise on the time i have in the gym.

many thanks

matt

Jay Ashman
04-25-2010, 05:58 AM
first of all your percentages are off with that rep range, you won't be working hard enough at all to get stronger. 90% of 1RM for 5 singles is easy. 75% of 1RM for 4 reps is simple.

2nd of all you are oversimplifying it with the conditioning. It is a lot more that just "heavy day, short metcon; light day, long metcon". It depends on the lift, the CNS hit you took, how you feel, what you are doing the next day/week, etc.

I have went into the gym with a plan and changed it entirely after I did my lift based upon how I felt after it.

I wouldn't call your problem overthinking, you just have to plan it out, and work on that strength program, those percentages with that rep range aren't going to cut it.

matthew brewster
04-25-2010, 09:22 AM
Hi Jay
thankyou for your reply.
My knowledge of strength and conditioning is very limited i was great at working out single body part splits years ago lol but this is still all pretty new to me.
I saw the layout of that programme and it seemed to mix things up nicely

in simple terms how would i be best having one lift a day followed by conditioning ? would i be better going with a linear progression on the core lifts followed by the crossfit wod scaled to my abilities?

The only problem i have with that is on CF there are many exercises that i cant do ie muscle ups, ghds etc and too be honest dont see the point in doing.

or is something like the max effort black box the way to go, one day of lifts at a heavy weight followed by a day dedicated to conditioning ?

many thanks
matt

Steven Low
04-25-2010, 09:33 AM
What are your lift numbers, weight, and height?

You may not need percentages and may be able to just use linear progression if you're not well into intermediate level of strength...

matthew brewster
04-25-2010, 10:09 AM
Hi steven thank you for replying

My stats are (im trying to convert this to imperial for you so may be a little off)

height 5 11
weight 16 stone - 98kg but very fat at the moment i think i should be closer to 90 where i was 12 months ago. diet has been taken in hand.

lifts as 1 rep max
back squat - 264 lbs - 120 kg
front squat - 225 ibs - 100kg
ohs 132 - 60kg as a 3 rep
bench - 225 - 100kg
deadlift - 330 - 150kg
c&j 154 - 70kg
clean 165 - 75 kg as a 2 rep
snatch 110 - 50kg
military press 160 -72.5
push press 198 - 90kg
real pull ups 6 on a good day
dips weighted 20kg for 5
dips unweighted 16

these are all recent numbers and despite not really training for 4 months i didnt seem to loose what little strength i had

previously i was training at a uk affiliate who also used to programme lifts as a percentage however their knowledge far out ways mine, but alas i can only drop in there once a month or so now.

My main concern at the moment is good conditioning although i require good strength and strength endurance for work.

i think basically i want to be a badass mofo lol

Jay Ashman
04-25-2010, 02:37 PM
you don't need percentages yet... hit the linear hard, you have room to grow.

Mark Fenner
04-25-2010, 04:13 PM
1 rep max
5x4 75 %
5x3 80%
3x3 85%
5x1 90%

My question with regards to mixing in conditioning workouts is when to go heavy and short and when to go lighter and longer.


To answer your stated question, I think your set-rep scheme is enough to support whatever you feel like for conditioning. If you feel good, go heavy. If you feel bad, go longer. You are already spreading out your fatigue throughout the week.

From my perspective, those are good strength-skill practice values. Jay has an alternate perspective below, but high frequency approaches (you are talking about lifting fives days a week, right?) require not going to failure or even to serious strain. With these approaches you are doing motor learning, not pushing hypertrophy.

first of all your percentages are off with that rep range, you won't be working hard enough at all to get stronger. 90% of 1RM for 5 singles is easy. 75% of 1RM for 4 reps is simple.


Did you notice that he is going five days a week? He might be better off doing linear progression five days a week (ala Power to the People 1 set of 5 every day), but you might agree that in the context of five session per week lifting, he would not want to do, say, 5 sets of 3 @ 90% the day after a more traditional recommendation at 85% (3-5 sets of 5 or something).

What are your lift numbers, weight, and height?


These are all great questions. I'd also like to know what your real age is, your training age (years of serious training without more than a month off), and if you've ever done anything that would have made you strong without weights (heavy labor, wrestling, etc.). I think all these additional questions drastically affect the Practical Programming "novice, beginner, intermediate" programming ideas and the tolerance of the trainees for different programming schemes.

Oh, where was the relative intensity article you mentioned?

Best,
Mark

Jay Ashman
04-25-2010, 04:41 PM
Did you notice that he is going five days a week? He might be better off doing linear progression five days a week (ala Power to the People 1 set of 5 every day), but you might agree that in the context of five session per week lifting, he would not want to do, say, 5 sets of 3 @ 90% the day after a more traditional recommendation at 85% (3-5 sets of 5 or something).

good catch, I didn't even notice that until now.

yea a 5 day a week program like that is odd for sure. I would recommend linear progression for him for sure, he isn't strong enough to be messing with percentages yet, unless he is doing 5/3/1

Júlíus G. Magnússon
04-25-2010, 04:58 PM
Another vote for linear progression.

Something like:

Mon:
Squat 3x5
Bench Press 3x5
Pull-ups

Tue:
Deadlift 1x5
Metcon

Wed:
Rest

Thu:
Squat 3x5
Press 3x5
Metcon

Fri:
Pull-ups
Metcon (or just a pull-up centric metcon)

Sat:
Power Cleans
Metcon

Sun:
Rest

Steven Low
04-25-2010, 08:58 PM
Something like what Julius wrote up would be good

matthew brewster
04-26-2010, 12:15 AM
These are all great questions. I'd also like to know what your real age is, your training age (years of serious training without more than a month off), and if you've ever done anything that would have made you strong without weights (heavy labor, wrestling, etc.). I think all these additional questions drastically affect the Practical Programming "novice, beginner, intermediate" programming ideas and the tolerance of the trainees for different programming schemes.

Oh, where was the relative intensity article you mentioned?

Best,
Mark

Hi Mark
im about to turn 31 and im a Taurus who likes .......... sorry wrong forum :D
ive trained with weights to some degree since i was 15, i started when i was playing football (soccer) with a typical health club machine based circuit,
At 19 discovered the world of spit and sawdust training with an aim to get HUGE!!! With single part body splits, high volume drop sets forced reps etc.
I Just copied what the big lads were doing and tried to put lots of weight on the bar and lift it lots, worked ok but i didn't have the decca or sus to help out, and did very little conditioning at this time bar 2 - 3 nights a week of goshin ryu ju jitsu under Steve Barnett, and working as a nightclub doorman.

About 4 years ago i left the weights for about 12 months to concentrate on my fitness for the FF entry tests and the biggest thing i picked up were 10kg dumb ells in circuits.

only came back to lifting when i trained at CF Manchester and they made me start again.

I found the article in the Performance menu journal shop its written by pierre Auge

Matt

Alex Bond
04-26-2010, 01:18 AM
Something like what Julius wrote up would be good

Agreed. I think there are actually lots of people out there on 5/3/1 who could make faster progress while maintaining conditioning on this sort of program.

matthew brewster
04-26-2010, 01:30 AM
Hi Julius
Thank you for that.
I like the look of that programme, still gives me 4 days to work on conditioning, the only fear i have is that as someone returning to training is two lifts a day plus metcon too much ? or am i being soft ?

As i have little clue as we have discovered with programming metcons, (im learning as quick as i can, there is just so much noise out there) how harmful is cherry picking anything i like the look of from Cf, ross training, pm menu, cosgrove etc ?

matt

Steven Low
04-26-2010, 03:14 AM
If you're worried then keep the volume lower for the work sets to like 1x5 each lift, and keep the metabolic work 5 minutes or shorter until you get up to speed.

Jay Ashman
04-26-2010, 04:45 AM
Agreed. I think there are actually lots of people out there on 5/3/1 who could make faster progress while maintaining conditioning on this sort of program.

yes indeed, I'm one case of that. I can tell you that the 5/3/1 program is fantastic to use with conditioning.... as long as you are smart about it and don't get wrapped up in the metcon game.

Mark Fenner
04-26-2010, 06:46 AM
My only slight difference with Julius' suggestion would be to move the Saturday Pwr Cleans to Friday (so Friday is Chins/Pwr Cleans/Metcon) and take Saturday + Sunday off. I like rest days.

Keep your form in check and if an exercise becomes a real struggle, reduce it by 10-15 pounds next work out and start up again. I'd also say commit yourself to it (or any sensible program) for 8 weeks (maybe with lighter week around week 4 ... maybe just do two or the four days, drop the DL and PwrCl days).

Of course, personally, I'd love to see how the high frequency approach treated your for 6-8 weeks. But, it is probably better advice to follow Julius' suggestions.

Best,
Mark

Dave Van Skike
04-26-2010, 09:30 AM
the chief shortcoming of 531 (lack of frequency on the squat and press) can be solved by doing overhead assit (5 sets of 10 light) after the bench work and light bench as assitence on the overhead press day.

same with squat. do your Squat assist on DL day and vice versa. frequency problem solved, recovery good, fewer assistance movements is better 80% of the time.

Mark Fenner
04-26-2010, 10:17 AM
the chief shortcoming of 531 (lack of frequency on the squat and press) can be solved by doing overhead assit (5 sets of 10 light) after the bench work and light bench as assitence on the overhead press day.

same with squat. do your Squat assist on DL day and vice versa. frequency problem solved, recovery good, fewer assistance movements is better 80% of the time.

I thought about this "swapped" version of Boring But Big also, but I didn't try it. Did you happen to give it a go yourself?

Best,
Mark

Dave Van Skike
04-26-2010, 10:31 AM
yup. i did back squats and the RDLs for 3 set sof 8

DL then front squats, timed 10 sets of 3.

Justin Algera
04-26-2010, 11:30 AM
Ive been doing what Dave suggests for about 6 months now (as has my wife) and its been working great for us... One issue was that after a while, the BBB squats done after the squat sets become murder and tough to recover from. But throwing them in either as a warm-up to the Deadlift or afterwards has been key for me. I have also played around recently with speed work with bands as well as box squats to see how they play out. Not sure how it will work on my squat as I dont lift in gear, but what the hell.

Mark Fenner
04-26-2010, 07:26 PM
yup. i did back squats and the RDLs for 3 set sof 8

DL then front squats, timed 10 sets of 3.

Man, we think along similar lines. As I read and responded to you ... I was literally thinking "and what if we went 3 of 8 instead of 5 of 10". I love the combination of rep schemes, different movements (but similar!), and twice a weeks. So, here's the kicker, did you feel like you made good progress on it?

Best,
Mark

Dave Van Skike
04-26-2010, 08:03 PM
Man, we think along similar lines. As I read and responded to you ... I was literally thinking "and what if we went 3 of 8 instead of 5 of 10". I love the combination of rep schemes, different movements (but similar!), and twice a weeks. So, here's the kicker, did you feel like you made good progress on it?

Best,
Mark

yes. i made good progress but the key for me was the rep progressions and the limited focus.

in the future i think i'd drop front squats. and do the 5x10 back squat very light. i've just got terrible leverage for the fsq and so it doesn't really drive my back squat and my pull uses very little leg drive at all.

if you are worried about losing ground on fsq's keep them in the warm up. a really good warm up for me has been 54321 press and 54321 front squat.

press 135x5,155x4,175x3,195x2,205x1 then front sq. 225x5,245x4,275x3,305x2,315x1 then hit an easy triple on the back squat or maybe even a 5'er..then i'm all warmed up and ready to go. hit your three work sets, then rdls. and done.

matthew brewster
04-28-2010, 05:23 AM
Thank you to everyone who chipped in and helped with my programme.
this has truly proved to be a great place to get advice that is specific to my needs and not just do the wod :) .

i have decided to give the plan laid out by julius a try and I've read up on linear progression so now I'm all set i think.
This is how I'm planning on laying my week out.

DAY 1
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pull ups 3x3 I'm really bad at these!

Day 2
Deadlift 1 x 5
weight based metcon 10 mins - magic 50, fran etc

Day 3
rest

Day 4
Squat 3x5
press 3x5
metcon short sprint

Day 5
pull ups - 3 x 3 or some density stuff, 2 on the min for ten mins etc
interval training - rower, sprints etc, ie 10 x 100m 4 x 400m 30 on 30 off etc

Day 6
Power clean 5 x 3
what ever i fancy depending on how i feel- metcon, complexes, nice run in the woods etc

ill be keeping everything in my log so all advice will be much appreciated

many thanks

matt