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Kevin Shaughnessy
05-07-2010, 06:53 PM
I'm dropping deadlifts from my routine as its probably not a good idea for me to be doing them right now back health wise. I already do power cleans and plan to add power snatches to my routine, but need a slow lift for my back. The thing is though, I'm absolutely bored of pull ups, and arent interested in rows.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Steven Low
05-07-2010, 06:59 PM
Reverse hyperextensions

Kevin Shaughnessy
05-07-2010, 07:05 PM
Reverse hyperextensions

I actually already do reverse hyperextensions, but considered them more of a lower back excercise and am looking for a pulling exercise. I wonder if there is anything other then pull ups or row variations? What else could there be...

I've actually come up with a routine that looks like it might be fun and get my strong, so rather then make a new thread, I'll post it here and ask for a critique or thoughs on how it could be better organized. Thanks.

Monday

Squat 3x5
Press/Bench 3x5
Power Clean 5x3
Power Snatches 5x3
Reverse Hyperextension 3x10
Weighted Plank 2x1:00

Wednesday

Squat 3x5
Bench/Press 3x5
Power snatch 5x3
Power Clean 5x3
Weighted pull up 3x5

Friday

Squat 3x5
Press/Bench 3x5
Power snatch 5x3
Power Clean 5x3
Reverse Hyperextensions 3x10
Weighted plank 2x1:00

I would be increasing the lifts in a linear manner. Is that feasible working the olympic lifts 3 times a week?

Derek Weaver
05-07-2010, 07:15 PM
I'm dropping deadlifts from my routine as its probably not a good idea for me to be doing them right now back health wise. I already do power cleans and plan to add power snatches to my routine, but need a slow lift for my back. The thing is though, I'm absolutely bored of pull ups, and arent interested in rows.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

A) there is no substitute for deadlifts.
B) What else are you going to do other than pull ups and rows? They serve different purposes by the way
C) How is a power clean better or at least acceptable when a deadlift isn't?

I'm actually not trying to come off as a jerk, even though the above points certainly read like it. I'm just a little confused. There is only so much that can be done to work the back.

Kevin Shaughnessy
05-07-2010, 08:18 PM
A) there is no substitute for deadlifts.
B) What else are you going to do other than pull ups and rows? They serve different purposes by the way
C) How is a power clean better or at least acceptable when a deadlift isn't?

I'm actually not trying to come off as a jerk, even though the above points certainly read like it. I'm just a little confused. There is only so much that can be done to work the back.

Your right, theres only so much. I guess this post was just a vain hope for something fresh. And for C, deadlifts are a much larger load on the spine.

Dave Van Skike
05-07-2010, 08:30 PM
I'm dropping deadlifts from my routine as its probably not a good idea for me to be doing them right now back health wise. I already do power cleans and plan to add power snatches to my routine, but need a slow lift for my back. The thing is though, I'm absolutely bored of pull ups, and arent interested in rows.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

powercleans are not deadlifts...they are not even trap bar deadlifts. they aren't even RDLs...my god man...in the word of Jean Paul Sigmarsson

"There is no point in being alive if you cannot do the deadlift"

You're in deep trouble ...deep deep trouble if this is not crystal clear.

Derek Weaver
05-07-2010, 09:54 PM
Your right, theres only so much. I guess this post was just a vain hope for something fresh. And for C, deadlifts are a much larger load on the spine.

What's the matter with your spine? Back Squats also very likely to cause back screwed upped-ness (my term) if you've got issues.

Blair Lowe
05-08-2010, 03:56 AM
Front and Back Levers. :D

I will as well back the argument that the BS are just as likely to aggravate your back as DL, if not more. BTDT.

Kevin Shaughnessy
05-08-2010, 10:11 AM
I think back squats will be fine.

Now, if anyone could please take a look at my routine and tell me what they think? What I'm wondering the most about is if I can treat olympic lifts the same as I would a slow lift and progress by say 2.5# per workout until I cant do that anymore, reset, then work back up again?

Chris Butler
05-08-2010, 10:42 AM
New here but I've been training for over 30yrs.

IMO - I have always preferred to do high skill moves (Oly lifts) first in my training day and in my program.

Derek Weaver
05-08-2010, 11:58 AM
What Chris said. Power moves need to come first. That means the technical lifts.

Don't try and reinvent the wheel. Either work yourself into the ground ala the Boz post, or do something like th Catalyst workout or something else proven.

And yes, backsquats will blow up your back just as easily as deadlifts will.

Again though, what is the problem with your back health that you think squats and high skill, technical lifts are going to be fine, but a moderate to heavy pull won't be?

Robert Callahan
05-10-2010, 10:55 AM
I actually already do reverse hyperextensions, but considered them more of a lower back excercise and am looking for a pulling exercise. I wonder if there is anything other then pull ups or row variations? What else could there be...

I've actually come up with a routine that looks like it might be fun and get my strong, so rather then make a new thread, I'll post it here and ask for a critique or thoughs on how it could be better organized. Thanks.

Monday

Squat 3x5
Press/Bench 3x5
Power Clean 5x3
Power Snatches 5x3
Reverse Hyperextension 3x10
Weighted Plank 2x1:00

Wednesday

Squat 3x5
Bench/Press 3x5
Power snatch 5x3
Power Clean 5x3
Weighted pull up 3x5

Friday

Squat 3x5
Press/Bench 3x5
Power snatch 5x3
Power Clean 5x3
Reverse Hyperextensions 3x10
Weighted plank 2x1:00

I would be increasing the lifts in a linear manner. Is that feasible working the olympic lifts 3 times a week?

Two things.

First as has been said already, Squatting heavy and cleaning/snatching are just as likely to mess with your back, if not more so, than deadlifts.

Second your "program" is way to much. You expect to be able to squat heavy, press/bench heavy, snatch and clean heavy all for sets across?? Your workouts will take 3+ hours and you will over train yourself in short order.


Lets simplify this with 2 questions.

1) what is wrong with your back?
2) what are your athletic goals? Size + strength? Olympic lift proficiency? If you had to pick just one fitness/athletic related goal what would it be?


Based on your answers to these two questions we will be able to provide vastly improved advice :)

William Zelcer
05-12-2010, 09:03 AM
Can't speak for Kevin but i have a similar issue. Dead lifting aggravates my SI joint, while squatting does not.
Even when i had trouble walking, had to drag my right foot, i could still squat quite a bit without any pain.
i would like a substitute, but is there one ???
maybe i could get away with rather light ones (= to body weight) without it starting up again ????

Garrett Smith
05-12-2010, 10:12 AM
Russian KB swings as an alternative to DL.

William Zelcer
05-12-2010, 11:43 AM
Garrett,
would you do a lot of reps * light weight (i.e 24 k) or few reps * heavy weight (??)
thanks

Dave Van Skike
05-12-2010, 11:43 AM
Can't speak for Kevin but i have a similar issue. Dead lifting aggravates my SI joint, while squatting does not.
Even when i had trouble walking, had to drag my right foot, i could still squat quite a bit without any pain.
i would like a substitute, but is there one ???
maybe i could get away with rather light ones (= to body weight) without it starting up again ????

first, fix what is broken.
deadlifts are not broken.
something is funky. you might conclude after dilligent work at fixing your SI joint that the risk to reward is not there for deadlifting...but I'd take a run at fixing the dysfunction first.

Grissim Connery
05-12-2010, 01:48 PM
like garrett said, the only thing i would replace DL w/ is heavy kb swings.

but still i wouldn't use the word replace. i would do them instead, but they are very different. i use swings if my gluts are lagging and not activating right.

yeah like other people said, what's the back issue? i can deadlift very often and feel fine. if i backsquat twice in one week then my spine feels shitty immediately.

Kevin Shaughnessy
05-12-2010, 02:27 PM
I dont have a diagnosed spinal problem, I just tweak my back easily, especially when performing deadlifts and I dont want to develop a long-term problem. What prompted the question was I had hurt my back squatting and deadlifting aggravated the problem in a much more painfull way then squatting so I got nervous. I've decided to reset, let my back heal and continue trying with the deadlifts.

As for my goals, I would like to be able to squat, deadlift, press, bench, clean, and snatch decently while maintaining a good amount of conditioning while not being fat.

Jason Barrow
05-12-2010, 04:06 PM
Long time reader/lurker, super-infrequent poster! Sure some of the others will chime in again but thought I'd offer of my 2 cents...

Backing off for a while to let the back issue rest up sounds like a good idea. However, if you say you tweak your back "easily" when deadlifting, sound perhaps like there's an issue here? Maybe nothing big, could just be tightness, musclar imbalance, bad patterning...? Sure somebody else will have something to say in that regard.

With reference to your goals, quite a lot going on but if that's what you're shooting for, cool. I'd probably approach it one of 2 ways....


Get strong in the so called slow lifts first, before using using that strength in becoming better at the oly stuff. Simplifies your training days/week, less time spent in the gym, room to maybe add some conditioning along side the lifting...
Work everything at the same time but spread you training out more than in the suggested template. Daily/weekly volume would be less, you'd hit each lift less frequently and progress in each would no doubt be slower but you'd avoid over doing it and be able to enjoy doing a little bit off everything you want....

Kevin Shaughnessy
05-12-2010, 05:48 PM
Long time reader/lurker, super-infrequent poster! Sure some of the others will chime in again but thought I'd offer of my 2 cents...

Backing off for a while to let the back issue rest up sounds like a good idea. However, if you say you tweak your back "easily" when deadlifting, sound perhaps like there's an issue here? Maybe nothing big, could just be tightness, musclar imbalance, bad patterning...? Sure somebody else will have something to say in that regard.

With reference to your goals, quite a lot going on but if that's what you're shooting for, cool. I'd probably approach it one of 2 ways....


Get strong in the so called slow lifts first, before using using that strength in becoming better at the oly stuff. Simplifies your training days/week, less time spent in the gym, room to maybe add some conditioning along side the lifting...
Work everything at the same time but spread you training out more than in the suggested template. Daily/weekly volume would be less, you'd hit each lift less frequently and progress in each would no doubt be slower but you'd avoid over doing it and be able to enjoy doing a little bit off everything you want....


Thanks for the advice. Number 1 is actually the way I'm going to go. I'm doing SS first and then I'll implement snatches and prowler work into my routine.

As for why I tweak my back easily, I have theories. Basically I battered my lower back doing terrible form squats and deadlifts trying to do SS a couple years ago that I never properly rehabbing until recently. So I think my problem is weak joints.

Derek Weaver
05-12-2010, 07:24 PM
Weak joints? Or lack of stability? Weakness in the muscles and other tissues around the joint is possible.

Seriously, I would spend some time working fairly light (maybe 10 rm loads) and warm up with lifts that emphasize stability through the torso (also called midline stability in CF terms) like the overhead squat. Only once you're fairly certain you're flexible, mobile and stabile enough with a broom stick.

Chris Butler
05-13-2010, 05:48 AM
As for why I tweak my back easily, I have theories. Basically I battered my lower back doing terrible form squats and deadlifts trying to do SS a couple years ago that I never properly rehabbing until recently. So I think my problem is weak joints.Kevin, Have you been checked for an upslip? The pelvis can easily shift/rotate and quadratus lumborum will splint from shortening and hold it there. The hamstrings will lengthen to accommodate. The easiest way to tell is to lay prone and have someone put their thumbs on your ischial tuberosity on both side and see if their thumbs line up. You can also lay supine and have someone see if your heels line up.

Steven Low
05-13-2010, 06:12 AM
Would be a good idea to get a full lower body evaluation by a good chiro or PT.

Júlíus G. Magnússon
05-13-2010, 11:16 AM
I'm dropping deadlifts from my routine as its probably not a good idea for me to be doing them right now back health wise. I already do power cleans and plan to add power snatches to my routine, but need a slow lift for my back. The thing is though, I'm absolutely bored of pull ups, and arent interested in rows.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.
Done properly, deadlifts are actually a great idea, back health wise.

(Didn't read the whole thread and this has probably been said before but it's worth saying again.)

Edit: Unless there is already a problem with your back that you are aware of, in which case cleans and snatches are just as stupid (or more so) than deadlifts.

Gary John
05-13-2010, 11:59 AM
Try trap bar deads. You move serious weight and the position change might help.

Harry Munro
05-13-2010, 01:14 PM
Lighter deadlifts emphasising perfect form.

Kettlebell swings.

Kevin Shaughnessy
05-17-2010, 03:33 PM
OK, so it's been established. I can deadlift fine so long as I dont lose a hint of extension. And by a hint I mean, if you saw a video of me performing the lift you wouldn't be able to tell I had lost any but there would be pain. That doesn't sound normal to me. Might anyone know what could cause that? I'm going to visit a chiro as soon as I can afford it.

Dave Van Skike
05-18-2010, 10:25 AM
no. it does not sound normal. some amount of deviation from perfect form must be possible without injury.

possibilities:

1) you are extremely weak in the Dead and need to massively retune your expectations about weight selection.

2) you are injured

3) all of the above.

Derek Weaver
05-18-2010, 11:22 AM
OK, so it's been established. I can deadlift fine so long as I dont lose a hint of extension. And by a hint I mean, if you saw a video of me performing the lift you wouldn't be able to tell I had lost any but there would be pain. That doesn't sound normal to me. Might anyone know what could cause that? I'm going to visit a chiro as soon as I can afford it.

Like Dave said, something is likely very wrong. Perfect form is important but a slight deviation shouldn't injure you. If this is the case, you've already got a chronic problem that likely will require some sort of professional intervention to correct.

Chance Adams
05-19-2010, 07:08 AM
I had a very similar problem to the OP. Deadlifts and heavy cleans would leave my lower back (SI area) wrecked for several days. After consulting a PT, he said one side of my SI joints had "slipped" out of place, causing the pain my lower back/hips. He put them in place and told me I could do it myself by laying on my back, knees bent, and squeezing a basketball (or something similar) between my knees as hard as I can. I guess that pulls on and aligns the SI joints. Anyway, I did that through February and upped my fish oil dosages and haven't had any problems since.

Hope this helps.

Tyler Micheli
05-19-2010, 09:11 AM
Chance's SI fix sounds similar to what is talked about in these two short videos, which may be of help to your problem, Kevin. As stated by others, professional help is recommended, but I'm also a big fan of learning your own body and self-making minor repairs where/when possible.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo3DZrYW580

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkltzrvatlU