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Kevin Scott
05-08-2010, 11:49 PM
I train BJJ anywhere from 4-6 days per week. I train 2 hours a day most days and sometimes 3. I try to keep the intensity up and take very few breaks when training. My goal is to find a strength and conditioning program that works to enhance my grappling. I have goals of eventually getting to adcc world sub championships. I currently am a purple belt in bjj and working on progressing quickly to black. What suggestions do you guys have.

I am currently 225 and about 13% BF and 26 years old. I box squat 400lbs, deadlift 300, bench 250, overhead press 165, and power clean 185 (technique still needs work. Almost landed a 220 pound power clean but couldn't quite get technique). I am cutting my weight down to 210 for upcomming grapplers quest and I will be dropping to a walking weight of 190# permanently over the next few months. I know I could do with a better metabolic conditioning. My pressing strength could use improvement. I also feel my posterior chain could do with strengthening. I thought about crossfit football or crossfit but was unsure if it would be to general. I currently train 1 day with a powerlift focus on a pushing movement and a squat/deadlift variation. The powerlifting day I perform 15 sets of 1 rep with 1 min between each set. If I can complete all 15 sets with same weight I add 5% to the next workout. Every 4 weeks I change the two lifts. The rest of the week consists of crossfit type workouts. Usually only managing to do 3 crossfit workouts in a week and usually only do metcons.

Chris Butler
05-09-2010, 06:04 AM
Your training looks good. Are you doing any hill sprints or sled work?

How's your diet? If drop down to 190 you are going to have to drop lean tissue as well. Your LBM is 195.75lbs.

Joe Hart
05-09-2010, 08:46 AM
Its good that you have a goal and a reason to do all this work.

It seems like you have the strength nailed down. The question is "Are you being overpowered by your opponents?" If not I would stick with what you have. When you get done with a bout are you worn out to the point you couldn't go another round? What I am asking is what is your weakness?

Your technical skill seems to be up there and you roll quite a bit. I am 40 if I did all that you do, in a week, I would be worn out and divorced. Do you recover ok with everything you do?

I would check out Joel Jamieson's book and website (8weeksout.com). He is pretty systematic about S&C. His view is more about improving weakness and staying technically proficient. He gives a baseline for strength and conditioning.

So sorry that I am all over the place.

Kevin Scott
05-09-2010, 05:08 PM
I have been recovering fairly well. I am starting to take my blood pressure manually every morning and resting HR to check for overtraining. I usually notice after about 3 weeks I start to feel soreness in all my joints and difficulty sleeping so the fourth week I generally have to back down a bit to recover. Usually the fourth week seems to be a half volume week and I feel as good as new. I haven't been injured and have been feeling overall better.

I still want to improve all aspects of my fitness for grappling. I can usually go 3x6 minute rounds pretty hard grappling with no rest between and after that I start to fizzle a little and I am only saved by having pretty decent technique. I want to be able to go 5x6 minute rounds since most big tournaments you end up with 5 matches. I am pretty obsessed with becoming the best. My squat strength is good but my deadlift strength needs to also be double my bodyweight. I also want the bench press to be 300 and my overhead press to be around 225. I feel the additional strength will help and I think my posterior chain needs more strength to help with throws and takedowns. I also need some type of grip training program. My pinching grip sucks and I have a low finish rate with gi chokes because of grip strength. I am open to ideas on integrating grip strength.

Based on this what do you think would be better; the program I am following now with the powerlifting 1x per week and 2-3 crossfit metcons or following crossfit football with the daily powerlifting and short metcons. I have never really tried crossfit football so I am unsure about it. Also I know Gant had an interesting hybrid program that some people seem to like. I am also open to non crossfit conditioning. I am just looking to be the best.

Kevin Scott
05-09-2010, 05:14 PM
I haven't really been doing hill sprints. I have been doing a strongman metcon type day on saturdays a lot of weeks with tire flips, sled drags, sandbag work, and sledge hammer stuff. I have a pretty good sprint program but didn't know if it was better to sprint stuff or couplet/triplet metcons. I'll post the sprint program below. I got it a long time ago from a guy called Taku and many people have enjoyed it.

Week 1
Monday & Friday:
10 X 20 seconds work + 10 seconds recovery.
Wednesday:
5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 3 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 2 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Week 2
Monday & Friday:
10 X 20 seconds work + 10 seconds recovery.
Wednesday:
5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 5 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 5 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Week 3
Monday & Friday:
10 X 20 seconds work + 10 seconds recovery.
Wednesday:
5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 5 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 10 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Week 4

Monday:
5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 5 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 5 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.
Wednesday:
4 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 6 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 10 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.
Friday:
5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 8 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery 12 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Kevin Scott
05-09-2010, 05:34 PM
8weeksout.com looks pretty good. Anyone here have any experience using there programs. I also have looked at zach even-esh's stuff and I have read most of the articles on his undergroundstrengthcoach.com. I am just looking for as many as opinions as possible to create a good program for myself.

Chris your right about having to cut lean bodymass to reach 190. I am okay with that though because if I later decide to fight it'll be easier to cut to 170.

Joe Hart
05-09-2010, 06:13 PM
Ross Enamit's site has some good stuff. I have done his Infinite Intesity and it has taken the starch out of my britches quite a few times. CF Football would seem to serve you more since you want to get stronger. I will try and post more later.

Chris Butler
05-09-2010, 06:14 PM
Grip strength- Towel pull ups and farmer's walks

Throws - Over the shoulder boulder throws, like kbell swings but let it fly.

Grissim Connery
05-11-2010, 12:54 AM
the big thing that really jumps out at me is the deadlift @ 300#. IMO your pulls should be pretty legit, especially if you play with the gi. you should probably focus there for a while, along with weighted pullups. if you're concerned with grip strength, that should be complementary.

rope work would be nice. aside from climbing, you can tie it to something heavy and preferably with a lot of friction, like the tire. you can then stand your ground and row it in.

for more grip work, i actually think the captains of crush grippers are nice. when i use them, i notice a big part is not so much closing the fingers to the palm, but instead pushing the heel of the thumb up to the fingers. when you're cocking your wrists at different angles for chokes, a lot of times if you press this part of your thumb forward (in a supinated grip) it sinks chokes deeper both on the gi and slides the blade of your arm nicely on the proper spots.

IMO if you wanna increase strength for throws, you need to focus on rotational motions along with mixed push and pulls with the hands. one little motion that i think is actually pretty valuable is renegade rows. i think alternating them between strict ones facing the floor and heavy ones with big trunk rotations can have a lot of benefits in both of these categories. if i had to choose one, i would honestly choose the heavier weight one with a huge trunk rotation so that your facing sideways and your feet point in the direction you're now facing. the added support press that your bottom hand gives is very good. if you do a lot of leg sweep takedowns, then these would be very applicable.

in terms of over the shoulder throws w/ boulders, i think you could get those benefits more easily with OL....that is unless you're looking to suplex somebody....in which case go forth...i am all for suplexes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOZg7eDSbf0

Mark Joseph Limbaga
05-11-2010, 07:43 AM
One approach you can also consider:

5/3/1 for your main lifts
timed sets for assistance
complexes/strongman/metcon for GPP

Chris Butler
05-11-2010, 10:13 AM
in terms of over the shoulder throws w/ boulders, i think you could get those benefits more easily with OL....that is unless you're looking to suplex somebody....in which case go forth...i am all for suplexes...
I've found the explosiveness of being able to let the stone fly very beneficial. Similar to Vasily Alexeev Snatching and letting the barbell fly over his head or kettlebell tosses. It's just about follow through of acceleration.

Gant Grimes
05-12-2010, 09:37 AM
Kevin, I'm just popping in. You're in a good position right now. I agree that pulling strength could come up. So could pressing. Don't get too caught up in strength, though. I'm a lot stronger than Derek Simonds, but I give him little trouble on the mat. Look at his log. And look at Grissim's stuff.

Also, if you're going to play with weight classes, do it as a purple belt (not as a brown or black).

8weeksout is great (I have the book), but BJJ is not MMA. So be selective.

At this point, your S&C should complement your mat work. The object of your conditioning is to allow you to roll at high intensity the entire class. Get extra sparring sessions in if you can.

5/3/1 is great for grapplers because it's so flexible. I have put several people on this program:

Mon: power snatch, squat*, press*; Tabata Airdyne
Tues: Barbell complexes, sprints
Thurs: power clean, bench*, deadlift*
Fri: plyo work, prowler or sprints
Sat: odd object conditioning- tires, sledge, boat rope, sandbag, etc.

*5/3/1

You can tweak it or go to one-a-day. I wouldn't get bogged down with assistance exercises unless it's bodyweight stuff.

If you want a better grip, you need to practice grip fighting in the gi. Few BJJers do this. It will improve your grip strength and endurance, and it will put you in a better position to throw.

IMO, you don't need any extra rotational work for throwing. You need to practice throwing. It's a matter of footwork, coordination, elbow position, placement, and hip rotation. I get uchi mata or harai goshi regularly on the 250+ guys in our club. Getting your opponent off-balance is far more important than rotational strength (which you'll get plenty of if you practice throwing). Position before submission applies to standup, as well.

I don't see the utility in over-the-shoulder throws over the Olympic power variants unless you're one of the 90+kg players that likes to throw a high amplitude double-leg (see Rhadi Ferguson in Abu Dhabi). Also, you don't suplex somebody (at least not B2Back) by throwing them over your shoulder. You do it by moving their center mass (~hip) from your hip to your shoulder (basically a hang power clean). If you can "rack" a guy's back/hip at chest level and put your shoulders on the mat with some velocity, his back and shoulders will follow in violently spectacular fashion. I knocked a guy out a year ago with a belly to back; guy landed on his upper back. It's all mechanics.

This isn't to say over-the-shoulder or throwing stuff is bad. You could do quite well only working on the second pull (hang power versions). But the third pull comes in handy on kata guruma, seoi nage, some some sode makikomis. You won't do much with the first pull unless you're Karelin.

Derek Simonds
05-12-2010, 11:02 AM
Kevin I just read through all the posts and I agree with Gant completely. In fact so much that I might change my current 5/3/1 routine to one that matches what he laid out.

I have been on 5/3/1 for the last year, the flexibility of it keeps my strength high and going higher all the time and it lets me adapt to how I am training. This week I am training for 2 to 2:30 a night plus a tournament on Saturday all as prep work for my big tournament of the year on the 22nd. I did FS and Press on Monday with no assistance work and I will bench and DL tomorrow. Other than that it is all about BJJ.

I came at this whole deal from a triathlon background and was weak as circus lemonade. I did have some serious work capacity though and that is what got me through my first year grappling. I am back to thinking that I need to add back in LSD after ignoring it for the last couple of years.

Where do you train? I fought in Grapplers Quest a couple of weeks ago here in Orlando. It was truly F'ed up and I hope that your tourney doesn't have the same problems this one did!

Grissim Connery
05-12-2010, 01:58 PM
Also, you don't suplex somebody (at least not B2Back) by throwing them over your shoulder.


i was just messing around. the only time i could really think of maybe letting somebody fly over my shoulder is in a suplex, and then i just wanted to post that video up.

one of these days i'll actually go for a suplex, and it will be awesome! one of these days.....

luckily i only do BJJ tournaments, so most people have bad takedowns anyways. :D people sometimes think i have good takedowns, when the bitter truth is that mine are just kinda bad, while other people's are really bad.

Gant Grimes
05-12-2010, 03:06 PM
i was just messing around. the only time i could really think of maybe letting somebody fly over my shoulder is in a suplex, and then i just wanted to post that video up.

one of these days i'll actually go for a suplex, and it will be awesome! one of these days.....

luckily i only do BJJ tournaments, so most people have bad takedowns anyways. :D people sometimes think i have good takedowns, when the bitter truth is that mine are just kinda bad, while other people's are really bad.

From what I've seen, you (BJJ guys) could get a real advantage in the standup game just by working on gripfighting. I worked a bit with Derek on this, so he'll have a better opinion. The guy I do BJJ with (when I do it) is a judo brown belt, and all his guys start their matches with a throw and transition into a dominant position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl5l-YELUls

You probably don't get that many opportunities to suplex people in BJJ (although you could do a Karelin Lift).

I made the distinction on the over-the-shoulder stuff because a lot of bigger guys finish their double by just flinging the other dude (smaller guys pinch the legs and get the low takedown to avoid their opponent turning out).

Here's what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGDKed0c3WE

Grissim Connery
05-12-2010, 03:55 PM
this actually looks like a really good summer project for me. i was planning on developing my omoplata setups, but this could be more valuable.

Kevin Scott
05-14-2010, 12:10 AM
I am not that familiar with 5,3,1 program. Do you mean 5 reps, 3 reps, 1 rep? I followed a program close to that a few years ago and was having good success. Did 5,3,1 of an exercise adding 10 pounds after each set. The next time I did the same exercise I did 7 reps, 5 reps, 3 reps with the same weight. The next time I did the workout I would be back at 5,3,1 but start at 10 pounds more than I did the first time doing 5,3,1.

I honestly don't worry a ton about gi grips because I am not into gi competition. I do it to help me get better at no gi. I am way more successful at no-gi competition. It is more natural for me and I just enjoy it more. That is why I want to compete in the ADCC Championships eventually. I am not against competing in the Mundials I just really like no gi.

I am not to worried about cutting down to 190. I have been there before and I tend to only get better at bjj when I get towards that weight. I am able to move a little quicker and my gas tank gets even better.

I am have wrestling experience as well so I don't worry that much about the stand up part. I have wrestled with some really high level guys and held my own. If someone is a lot better I transition to the good old but scoot attack. My butterfly guard is one of the best parts of my game so I do just fine if I but scoot and eliminate the chance of getting taken down by extremely good stand up guys.

Derek I train at The Lab in Glendale Arizona. Ben Henderson fights out of our camp and Efrain is training here for his next fight. I have competed in grapplers quest before and have had tons of problems with the way they ran it but it has all the best no gi grapplers so I have little choice. The Grapplers Quest will be in vegas so we will get a lot of good competitors from california, and I know Mark Laimon's guys usually come up.

Gant I am certain I need more pulling strength. I don't care to suplex people because it generally takes more energy than it is worth but strong deadlifts help with finishing most takedowns. I have shorter legs and a longer torso which makes my deads lower than my squats. I do agree though that I don't want to be super into strength. I need to make sure I am conditioned enough to continually use my strength. I also need a lot of help with building explosive power. I am more of a grinding competitor because I don't do well with explosive movements. I don't own bumpers which makes olympic lifts more difficult. I built a olympic lift platform similar to this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rvPYabrD_A and it works decent for dropping metal plates. I also have difficulty with snatches because I find they put a ton of stress on my wrists and when combined with my grappling schedule I start to develop tendonitis and pain all over the wrist area.

Chris Butler
05-14-2010, 04:45 AM
Jim Wendler's 5/3/1

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

Greg Davis
05-23-2010, 02:50 AM
Hey guys what are your thoughts on fitting the 5/3/1 workouts in around BJJ training as far as timing?

I prefer to go in for a separate session but as far as scheduling it is sometimes super convenient to hit a heavy weight and then go to a class. I go to 1 hour morning BJJ classes at my gym which thank god are more focused on technique and not running around doing a million high rep sets for "cardio".

Of course it depends on how intense the class is so that can be an unpredictable variable, but IMO as long as you aren't overdoing it, a 5/3/1 session on the brief side then a BJJ class can work out well.

Thoughts/experiences?

Derek Simonds
05-23-2010, 04:39 AM
I started to type that I have never done it that way but I do quite often. If I am working out on Saturday morning I will train 5/3/1 and then go to BJJ. Saturday is most often DL day and after a 5/3/1 DL session I am not the quickest on the mat.

I would like to try it and see how it worked for me but no week day morning classes are available.

Greg Davis
05-24-2010, 04:48 AM
Geez forget that idea.. went back in to my BJJ gym after a bit of a hiatus and was not impressed to see they ripped out the weight room section to make more room for muay thai classes..

Erg!

Mark Joseph Limbaga
05-28-2010, 06:00 AM
Hey guys what are your thoughts on fitting the 5/3/1 workouts in around BJJ training as far as timing?

I prefer to go in for a separate session but as far as scheduling it is sometimes super convenient to hit a heavy weight and then go to a class. I go to 1 hour morning BJJ classes at my gym which thank god are more focused on technique and not running around doing a million high rep sets for "cardio".

Of course it depends on how intense the class is so that can be an unpredictable variable, but IMO as long as you aren't overdoing it, a 5/3/1 session on the brief side then a BJJ class can work out well.

Thoughts/experiences?

I always preferred to lift before training...

the #1 rule: listen to your body

Grissim Connery
06-03-2010, 09:38 AM
I always preferred to lift before training...


if i can lift several hours before training, then i prefer this. if it's lifting and then going straight into class, then i don't like this at all. if that's the case, then working out after class is fine too. in general i find that i have less pressure to condition after class since i feel like i probably already conditioned just by training. therefore, i can just focus on strength and skill work. granted though, i normally don't expect great performance cause i'm probably tired.

i do feel though that after working on strength and skill after training for a while does make me much more capable when i do come into a fresh workout session without training beforehand.

it's more reasonable to me to train after class because most people are training at the 6-8pm times anyways, and if you have a normal workday, then there's no good free time beforehand. that is unless you workout in the morning, but that just makes my back hurt.

if you train at noon or so, and then workout in the evening, that would probably be ideal. although my guess would be that if you feel up to it, you should train both at noon and in the evening and only workout if you don't have the energy (although that may sound weird).

Robb Wolf
06-20-2010, 09:06 AM
Great thread. Wanted to ask folks, why a 531 template (sticking with base moves for long-ish duration) vs a MEBB approach of rotating the strength work. Let's say something like Gant's program, but in lieu of 531, a rotating battery of ME moves?

Grissim Connery
06-22-2010, 10:53 AM
I've been more wiped out recently after training. This has made S&C after class harder. i'd still like to work out after class, but need to find a way to put forth the energy. anybody have tips other than trucker drugs and blow?

i thought of drinking a dextrose drink and waiting an hour. the only problem is that waiting starts to push later into the night, and then i start to impinge on my girlfriend's patience.

Grissim Connery
06-22-2010, 10:56 AM
Great thread. Wanted to ask folks, why a 531 template (sticking with base moves for long-ish duration) vs a MEBB approach of rotating the strength work. Let's say something like Gant's program, but in lieu of 531, a rotating battery of ME moves?

i think 531 just takes less thinking. i'm not saying it's dumb, but more of the fact that when you're worn out from training, switching exercises seems oddly fatiguing on the mind.

Derek Simonds
06-22-2010, 01:30 PM
Great thread. Wanted to ask folks, why a 531 template (sticking with base moves for long-ish duration) vs a MEBB approach of rotating the strength work. Let's say something like Gant's program, but in lieu of 531, a rotating battery of ME moves?

I agree with Grissim about the simplicity and not having to think about it. I program a month in advance, post the excel spreadsheet in my gym and I am done other than showing up.

The other part is three-fold. I get a real clear indication of my level of overtraining / underrecovering from the workouts. With very linear numbers on the same lifts week over week I know exactly how I am tracking and can compensate accordingly. If I feel I am starting to push too far I will cut out the accessory work. If I need to I will only strength train 2 days a week. Lots of flexibility for me to work within this framework without having to give it too much attention. Secondly I am truly a linear person, Knowing up front every day what lifts and numbers I need to hit for the set and rep scheme just works for me. The last part is that I have had the most significant gains ever using this protocol so my own little 5/3/1 BB has definitely passed.

I know that there is a ton of flexibility in the MEBB approach. I watch Coach Rut in my google reader all the time and like the MEBB approach. I am sure if I programmed it a month in advance with actual numbers I could get the same results, just haven't been that motivated to try it since I have been having good success with the 5/3/1

Robb I thought about my reply a lot and hope that it is clear enough.

Robb Wolf
06-30-2010, 01:21 PM
Guys-
I really appreciate the time, and yes, Derek, very clear.

it's funny, I program for others all the time but now that I'm rolling again and looking towards tournaments I need a handle on my own training. I'll sketch out what I'm up to and get y'alls input.

Gant Grimes
06-30-2010, 02:32 PM
Robb, I like 531 for the reasons others mentioned. There's nothing to overthink, so you can cut the trainee loose. It's useful for novices or intermediates, and the use of one heavy workset doesn't burn you out like sets across in a linear program. The AMRAP set also dovetails into other conditioning work better than a limit strength program does.

I'd do something different if I was coaching and programming for a specific trainee (assuming I was also familiar with his technique work). It would look more like my old stuff or like Rut's. But there is a lot of wiggle room, which means a lot of opportunities for an ignorant trainee to screw up the program. Not as much with 531.

For the spring season, I toyed with a combination of 531 (which I nixed closer to tourney time), timed sets on the KBs, Dan John's barbell complexes, and prowler work. I liked it a lot.

Also check Joel Jamieson's stuff.

Anton Emery
07-01-2010, 11:20 PM
Good thread. I think all the approaches mentioned are valid, depending on the individual. After some starting and stopping I am back to following Joel Jamieson's program laid out in his book. I figure he coached most of the Pride roster, so its at least worth a shot and i can see how i respond. The aerobic phase has been interesting, basically just keeping the heart rate between 120-150 for 30-90 min. For that I have been mostly been doing various things around the gym, practicing wrestling shots, BJJ drills, some gymnastics stuff, anything to keep my HR up for the allotted amount of time.

Hopefully i can stick to this. In the past i have tended to jump from one fitness goal to the other, as i see fellow gym members become better O-lifters, or get better at gymnastics. I see them do it and i want to do it too, when in reality i need to train for my sport of juijitsu.


Anton

Grissim Connery
07-09-2010, 12:42 PM
Hopefully i can stick to this. In the past i have tended to jump from one fitness goal to the other, as i see fellow gym members become better O-lifters, or get better at gymnastics. I see them do it and i want to do it too, when in reality i need to train for my sport of juijitsu.


if you're still chokin them out, then i wouldn't worry too much about how much better their snatch is. that's just me though

if they're better in both categories, then you should slash their tires.

Eric Cady
01-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Kevin Scott - same one that used to train at Saunders BJJ? Seems familiar?

As I've trained for training sake and for competitions throughout the years I am only now figuring out what is working best and getting the results I want. The first step ( in my opinion) would be to assess yourself (or have a professional asses you) to find out where your strengths and weaknesses are. Once you know that then you can figure out what your initial priorities are for your training. It's never an all or nothing scenario. EX: prioritize strength for a set period of time so that your power can in turn increase... I think template programs have a place and are benefit but for the best gains possible everything must be based off the individual since we are all so unique.
Glad I found this forum! Oh yeah Robb, paleo is working great for me!

Yael Grauer
01-06-2011, 09:13 AM
if you're still chokin them out, then i wouldn't worry too much about how much better their snatch is. that's just me though

if they're better in both categories, then you should slash their tires.

:D

That's awesome.

Yael Grauer
01-06-2011, 09:14 AM
Good thread. I think all the approaches mentioned are valid, depending on the individual. After some starting and stopping I am back to following Joel Jamieson's program laid out in his book.

I wanted to do that but I just couldn't understand his programming. Maybe I'm just not smart enough or maybe it's poorly laid out but a sample program would've been awesomesauce.

Kevin Scott
01-11-2011, 08:45 AM
Thats me Eric. How are you doing? I heard you got your black belt, congratulations.

Eric Cady
01-29-2011, 01:32 PM
Hey Kevin!

Cool.Things are good, and yes I did get my black belt - thanks. How have you been? - Looks like your revving up for some serious competitions. Check us out at www.crossfit585bjj.com, we have a great crew forming. Let me know what's up and if there is anyway I can help you best prepare!
Eric