PDA

View Full Version : Ditching the clean and jerk


Collin O'Neill
05-24-2010, 07:15 PM
I feel a little sandy in my nether regions, but after my injury from clean and jerking a few weeks ago, I have started to think about ditching it from my routine. I will continue to jerk. Heh.

My workout routine is taken almost verbatim from Gant's original hybrid program. Before it looked like:

M: C&J, Back Squat, WOD (Complexes, tabata, cardio, etc...)
T: Snatch, Overhead Squat, Bench, WOD
Th: C&J, Front Squat, Deadlift, Weighted Pullups
Fri: Snatch, Back Squat, Shoulder Press, WOD

My biggest concern with taking the snatch out of the equation, and only jerking (heh. heh heh) is that I won't be working my back and traps as much. Also I am concerned I will be missing out on training the ever controversial "explosive power" from cleans.

In the course of my several WODs throughout the week, I make a point to do certain things I want to improve, eg I always do some ab work, dips, pull-ups, etc...so the plan is to augment trap work with things like bent over rows.

Anyway, I am pretty set on this course of action. I am through with the clean for now. My questions are:


Should I train explosive jumping exercises, such as hex bar jumps, at the same place in my schedule I used to clean or add them to my WODs?
Can I still effectively target my traps by doing support work such as bent over rows, etc...?
What are more exercises that are good for upper back and trap development? Bent over rows are on my radar.


Thanks for your input. Rest assured, I have searched this site and several others, gleaning relevant info from them to help with my own informed decision. I would just like the input of board members for my specific situation.

David Boyle
05-24-2010, 07:21 PM
What was your injury?

Collin O'Neill
05-25-2010, 02:28 AM
I just tweaked my back a bit, nothing big. It kept me from lifting heavy on my lower body for about two and a half weeks though.

It was the straw that broke the camel's back. I had been thinking about making a change for a while now.

Steven Low
05-25-2010, 06:16 AM
Maybe it was a wake up call to work on your technique or improve your mobility or something... instead of actually just removing a good exercise from your routine?

Chris H Laing
05-25-2010, 07:20 AM
Are you keeping the deadlift in your program?

Collin O'Neill
05-25-2010, 09:43 AM
Maybe it was a wake up call to work on your technique or improve your mobility or something... instead of actually just removing a good exercise from your routine?


Now, now, now, let's not get rational here. ;)

You bring up a very good point. I have been cleaning and jerking for a couple of years now, with no ill result up until I tweaked my back. While my form is not perfect, my pull (which is where I hurt myself with a form break) is usually pretty good. If anything, my form and mobility need to improve in the rack department, which is not where I was injured.

I have been thinking of phasing it out of my routine for a while now, and who knows, perhaps I will miss the hell out of it, or not see acceptable results from not doing the exercise. That said, it will go, at least for a cycle or two.

Thanks though Steve, any other input would be greatly appreciated.

Collin O'Neill
05-25-2010, 09:50 AM
Are you keeping the deadlift in your program?


Absolutely.

Steve Shafley
05-25-2010, 12:50 PM
Are you an olympic lifter, Collin?

Collin O'Neill
05-25-2010, 03:31 PM
Are you an olympic lifter, Collin?

Not dedicated, no. I have dabbled with it for several years, and had been dedicating more time to C&J and snatches in the last year or so.

Call me fickle, but it just doesn't trip my trigger right now.

Dave Van Skike
05-25-2010, 04:06 PM
what was the question? should you do something you don't want to do?

UmmmNo.

Should you do something elses you do like to do?

UmmmmYes.

Chris H Laing
05-25-2010, 04:59 PM
If you can deadlift without back pain, maybe power cleans would be useful substitute.

Collin O'Neill
05-25-2010, 06:04 PM
what was the question? should you do something you don't want to do?

UmmmNo.

Should you do something elses you do like to do?

UmmmmYes.

I would recommend going back and reading my initial post, where I clearly list my questions.



Anyway, I am pretty set on this course of action. I am through with the clean for now. My questions are:


Should I train explosive jumping exercises, such as hex bar jumps, at the same place in my schedule I used to clean or add them to my WODs?
Can I still effectively target my traps by doing support work such as bent over rows, etc...?
What are more exercises that are good for upper back and trap development? Bent over rows are on my radar.




Now, if you can answer these questions or help contribute to this thread in any way, please do.

If you can't, I guess you can continue bringing nothing of substance to the table.

Collin O'Neill
05-25-2010, 06:06 PM
If you can deadlift without back pain, maybe power cleans would be useful substitute.

Pain is not the issue now, I am just looking to move away from cleans in general. My main concern is getting enough trap and back work from supplemental lifts, and whether or not I should dedicate time to other explosive lifts (eg trap DL bar jumps) in place of cleans in the schedule.

Chris Butler
05-25-2010, 06:36 PM
Should I train explosive jumping exercises, such as hex bar jumps, at the same place in my schedule I used to clean or add them to my WODs?
I would add some type of explosive lower body movement. Where to add them is based on movement choice.


Can I still effectively target my traps by doing support work such as bent over rows, etc...?
Bent over rows won't target your Trapezius the same the same way a clean will.


What are more exercises that are good for upper back and trap development? Bent over rows are on my radar.
I would add high pulls, DB/KB single hand snatches, swings, etc...

Andrew Wilson
05-26-2010, 06:07 PM
Pain is not the issue now, I am just looking to move away from cleans in general. My main concern is getting enough trap and back work from supplemental lifts, and whether or not I should dedicate time to other explosive lifts (eg trap DL bar jumps) in place of cleans in the schedule.

Just to shoot this out there but cleans aren't really trap and back lifts, may want to check on that technique.

Collin O'Neill
05-26-2010, 06:12 PM
Just to shoot this out there but cleans aren't really trap and back lifts, may want to check on that technique.

I have always gotten a good trap workout from cleans, and have heard others espouse similar results.

Power cleans perhaps more-so than traditional cleans.

Chris Butler
05-27-2010, 06:56 AM
I have always gotten a good trap workout from cleans, and have heard others espouse similar results.

Power cleans perhaps more-so than traditional cleans.I agree

John Alston
05-27-2010, 07:39 AM
Pain is not the issue now, I am just looking to move away from cleans in general. My main concern is getting enough trap and back work from supplemental lifts, and whether or not I should dedicate time to other explosive lifts (eg trap DL bar jumps) in place of cleans in the schedule.

It's not clear to me why you want the trap work, but have heavy surgs even been suggested here? Snatch grip power surgs work your tarps like mad. Load the bar up.
Higher back - chinese dumbell rows, see the other back thread.

Chris Butler
05-27-2010, 02:23 PM
Just to shoot this out there but cleans aren't really trap and back lifts, may want to check on that technique.
I present Dave Rigert

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_U__RVEGy-Vg/S8m0_uKzncI/AAAAAAAABpI/6Ghbr9Br4Po/s400/rigert1-vi.jpg

Andrew Wilson
05-29-2010, 01:17 AM
I present Dave Rigert

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_U__RVEGy-Vg/S8m0_uKzncI/AAAAAAAABpI/6Ghbr9Br4Po/s400/rigert1-vi.jpg

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/images/shoes/Rigeret_Bare_foot_snatch.jpg

Chris Butler
06-01-2010, 01:44 PM
Just to shoot this out there but cleans aren't really trap and back lifts, may want to check on that technique.

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/images/shoes/Rigeret_Bare_foot_snatch.jpg

OK, so you believe that abduction of the humerus doesn't require elevation and retraction of the shoulder girdle? :confused:

Daniel Gam
06-01-2010, 08:53 PM
are you going to stop snatching as well? that's an explosive movement

any overhead lift uses the traps which is necessary for proper upward rotation of the shoulder blades which is necessary for you to be able to lift your arms straight up.

deadlifts work the traps cause the arms attach to the shoulder blades which only connect indirectly to the backbone via the traps.

if what you care about specifically is trap and upper back development do rows and shrugs. i hear that snatch grip deadlifts are good for the upper back

Shane Skowron
06-21-2010, 11:49 AM
My main concern is getting enough trap and back work from supplemental lifts


Are jerks not enough trap work for you? Seem to me to be a much better trap exercise than cleans.