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Troy Kerr
06-30-2010, 09:15 AM
I am doing a guesstimation that I am somewhere around 8 percent body fat. Last time I had it measured it was 11.4 and since then I have gained a significant amount of muscle and lost a good amount of fat. I would really love to just knock the rest out as my goal has always been 5% bodyfat. I am just concerned if following a base zone would be
detrimental to my gymnastic training ( I am following a steady state cycle).
I typically follow an 80/20 paleo diet. I currently stand at 5"9, 185lbs, at less than 10% bodyfat. Is it possible to lose the fat without sacrificing my routine?

Derek Weaver
06-30-2010, 11:44 AM
I am doing a guesstimation that I am somewhere around 8 percent body fat. Last time I had it measured it was 11.4 and since then I have gained a significant amount of muscle and lost a good amount of fat. I would really love to just knock the rest out as my goal has always been 5% bodyfat. I am just concerned if following a base zone would be
detrimental to my gymnastic training ( I am following a steady state cycle).
I typically follow an 80/20 paleo diet. I currently stand at 5"9, 185lbs, at less than 10% bodyfat. Is it possible to lose the fat without sacrificing my routine?

I doubt it's likely. Certainly possible, although 5% bf is near bodybuilding contest lean.

Tough to perform in any way, if you get what I mean, at that level of bodyfat.

Donald Lee
06-30-2010, 12:11 PM
I just noticed that the Zone Diet category on this forum is gone.

The Zone Diet is too low in protein to get that lean while maintaining muscle mass, unless you're naturally lean. You should be eating anywhere from 1-2 g of protein per lb of LBM.

Getting to 5% bodyfat is extremely difficult for most, and you might not be able to do it on a simple Zone-type diet.

I'm also going to guess that you're underestimating your current bodyfat % and that you don't really know what 5% body fat looks like. 8% bodyfat is RIPPED, if you have some muscle. 5% body fat, as Derek said, is bodybuilder status. Even bodybuilders rarely maintain 5% body fat. Martin Berkhan is the only person I've actually heard of who maintains 5.5% body fat year around and is not an endurance athlete.

If you're going to try to maintain anywhere close to 5% body fat year around, you're going to have to implement frequent refeeds and some other nutritional strategies far more advanced than the Zone Diet.

Troy Kerr
06-30-2010, 02:54 PM
OK I appreciate that. As far as my body image goes, my iliac crest is quite visible but there is still some fat at the top of it and towards my low back. My guesstimation came from google images. I have a clear abdominal outlining as well. I am in the process of finding someone to test my body fat again.
My only other idea would be to follow a ketogenic diet based off of paleo selection. Any thoughts on this approach?

Derek Weaver
06-30-2010, 04:13 PM
OK I appreciate that. As far as my body image goes, my iliac crest is quite visible but there is still some fat at the top of it and towards my low back. My guesstimation came from google images. I have a clear abdominal outlining as well. I am in the process of finding someone to test my body fat again.
My only other idea would be to follow a ketogenic diet based off of paleo selection. Any thoughts on this approach?

My current take on ketogenic diets is that they're utterly stupid for athletes unless you have severe insulin resistance (unlikely if you're already lean) or have epilepsy.

A cyclical ketogenic approach may work well where the deletion of carbs on a low/no carb day would equal a pretty severe deficit. Carbs go high and you're at maintenance or a little below, carbs go medium and you're in a slight deficit etc. Protein and fat kept fairly constant the whole way.

You can definitely get very lean Zoning, but it sucks. If you want to get freaky lean, for whatever reason, just recognize you'll be hungry and pissed off at least some of the time.

Lyle's made mention that the biggest factor in maintaining lean body mass is intensity in the weight room where intensity equals the weight on the bar.

Check out this post by Martin on Stubborn Body Fat (http://leangains.blogspot.com/2010/06/intermittent-fasting-and-stubborn-body.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Leangains+%28Leangains%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher)

There's also a good one right before that one that I linked to in this forum (and nobody seemed to give a crap about it I guess) regarding Malcolm Gladwell on LC diets.

Like Donald said, refeeds help the issue. They're not necessarily required though. People have gotten very lean (including a lot of Crossfitters) without refeeds in the past. They are nice though.

Steven Low
06-30-2010, 04:45 PM
You might regress strength or plateau sooner.... but it shouldn't be a big deal

Donald Lee
06-30-2010, 06:24 PM
OK I appreciate that. As far as my body image goes, my iliac crest is quite visible but there is still some fat at the top of it and towards my low back. My guesstimation came from google images. I have a clear abdominal outlining as well. I am in the process of finding someone to test my body fat again.
My only other idea would be to follow a ketogenic diet based off of paleo selection. Any thoughts on this approach?

From that description, it sounds like you're at 10-12% bodyfat. And definitely have a look at the article Derek linked.

Troy Kerr
06-30-2010, 06:34 PM
I have read his article and the only problems I have are facts I should of mentioned in my first posting.

I am type 1 diabetic on an insulin pump. In this past any type of fat burner ( when I was in hs and experimented with them) jacked up my blood sugar. So I am weary of supplements like that.

I also work in a restaurant while home from school for the summer. So long hours on my feet without eating, and a less than optimal schedule.

Derek Weaver
07-01-2010, 12:14 AM
I have read his article and the only problems I have are facts I should of mentioned in my first posting.

I am type 1 diabetic on an insulin pump. In this past any type of fat burner ( when I was in hs and experimented with them) jacked up my blood sugar. So I am weary of supplements like that.

I also work in a restaurant while home from school for the summer. So long hours on my feet without eating, and a less than optimal schedule.

Ahhhh, I wasn't even thinking Type 1 diabetic. Gymnastics based strength work etc. is a good choice.

In that case, paleo-ketogenic stuff makes sense.

I would check in on Robb Wolf's page in that case. He's got a ton of stuff for the Type 1 diabetic.

That post of mine should have said something like keto diets are utterly stupid unless you're insulin resistant, epileptic or type 1 diabetic. I kind of acted up on that one.

Definitely Robb's page.

Troy Kerr
07-01-2010, 10:37 AM
Its all good man. Yeah I was fortunate enough to meet Robb at one of his nutrition certs 2 years ago. Since then the man has been nothing short of a life saver for me. Based on the zone calculator I'm at 19 blocks. I will roll with that for at least 3 weeks and see how things go.

In regards to that article, it mentions that some sort of activity during the fast will help things out. Now would this be the same as doing 20 minutes of "cardio" after waking up from a 12 hour fast?

Derek Weaver
07-01-2010, 12:03 PM
Yeah, just moving around.

Fasting though as a Type 1 diabetic... is that a good thing? What has Robb said on this subject?

Troy Kerr
07-01-2010, 12:21 PM
Never have spoken with him on the subject. As long as my bolus rates are fine it should prevent any dropping of my blood glucose rates. At least thats my theory on the matter.

Darryl Shaw
07-02-2010, 03:49 AM
I just noticed that the Zone Diet category on this forum is gone.

I hadn't noticed it had gone either. Does anyone know when it disappeared or why?

I'm also going to guess that you're underestimating your current bodyfat % and that you don't really know what 5% body fat looks like. 8% bodyfat is RIPPED, if you have some muscle. 5% body fat, as Derek said, is bodybuilder status. Even bodybuilders rarely maintain 5% body fat. Martin Berkhan is the only person I've actually heard of who maintains 5.5% body fat year around and is not an endurance athlete.

If you're going to try to maintain anywhere close to 5% body fat year around, you're going to have to implement frequent refeeds and some other nutritional strategies far more advanced than the Zone Diet.

How is it possible that you haven't heard of Clarence Bass (http://www.cbass.com/)?

The guys a legend in bodybuilding circles because he's been at ~5% BF since dinosaurs ruled the earth. More importantly he's done it without any of that low-carb, ketogenic semi-starvation, sorry "intermittent fasting", nonsense. The best thing about Clarence though is he's documented everything he's ever done and it's all available on his website or in his books.

Darryl Shaw
07-02-2010, 04:08 AM
I am doing a guesstimation that I am somewhere around 8 percent body fat. Last time I had it measured it was 11.4 and since then I have gained a significant amount of muscle and lost a good amount of fat. I would really love to just knock the rest out as my goal has always been 5% bodyfat. I am just concerned if following a base zone would be
detrimental to my gymnastic training ( I am following a steady state cycle).
I typically follow an 80/20 paleo diet. I currently stand at 5"9, 185lbs, at less than 10% bodyfat. Is it possible to lose the fat without sacrificing my routine?

First you need to follow your doctor or dietitians advice on healthy eating not some stupid fad diet you get off the interweb.

Okay with that out of the way here we go.......

There's no mystery to losing body fat, a small daily calorie deficit sustained over time will always get the job done. Here's the basics of how you do that without sacrificing your health or performance -

* Eat a wide variety of foods daily - no natural food or food group is off limits if you want to maintain long term health.

* Get adequate protein - 1.2 - 1.8g/kg/d.

* Get adequate carbs - 5 - 8g/kg/d. Adjust depending on training load and energy levels.

* Create a negative energy balance by reducing your fat intake to ~20% of total calories taking care to ensure that you get adequate EFA's.

The rationale for this is simple; eating an adequate amount of protein is a must if you want to avoid losing lean body mass, the relatively high carb intake fuels you workouts as well as having a protein sparing effect and creating an calorie deficit by cutting fat to 20% of total calories has no effect on health or performance providing adequate EFA's are consumed.

Troy Kerr
07-02-2010, 10:45 AM
Thanx for that info Darryl. However most dietitians as well as my own recommend high glycemic carbs as 65% of my foods and as little fat as possible. I have had much better results on paleo approach. If you read my previous post you would see that the paleo diet was recommended to me by Robb Wolf, I think we can all agree he's not some guy passing around stupid fad diets.

Donald Lee
07-02-2010, 01:24 PM
How is it possible that you haven't heard of Clarence Bass (http://www.cbass.com/)?

The guys a legend in bodybuilding circles because he's been at ~5% BF since dinosaurs ruled the earth. More importantly he's done it without any of that low-carb, ketogenic semi-starvation, sorry "intermittent fasting", nonsense. The best thing about Clarence though is he's documented everything he's ever done and it's all available on his website or in his books.

I have heard of Clarence Bass, but I didn't know he was at that low of a bodyfat percentage.

Darryl, I don't know why you're associating intermittent fasting with dieting nonsense. Withstanding any potential physiological benefits, intermittent fasting is useful for making it easier to eat less.

I have not read any of Clarence Bass' books and have only read a few of his internet articles in the past, but I don't think healthy eating, not dieting, and not counting calories will get most people to his physique. It can get most to 10-12% bodyfat with much patience, but merely tricking your body to eat less usually won't cut it to get a physique like his.

I can appreciate Clarence Bass' philosophy and passion for getting people healthy and strong, but much of his stuff is inaccurate in my opinion. For example, he's a big advocate of Carpinelli. But in the health and fitness world, even if you're not correct, you can still get results for people and for yourself by merely doing something.

Darryl Shaw
07-03-2010, 03:42 AM
Thanx for that info Darryl. However most dietitians as well as my own recommend high glycemic carbs as 65% of my foods and as little fat as possible. I have had much better results on paleo approach. If you read my previous post you would see that the paleo diet was recommended to me by Robb Wolf, I think we can all agree he's not some guy passing around stupid fad diets.

I think that ignoring your doctor and dietitians advice probably isn't the smartest decision you could make but it's your body so I'm not inclined to debate the issue if you've made your mind up already. I will suggest however that it might be worth you getting hold of a copy of Clinincal Sports Nutrition (4th ed.) by Louise Burke and reading the sections relating to diabetic athletes and weight loss for athletes.

Darryl Shaw
07-03-2010, 03:55 AM
I have heard of Clarence Bass, but I didn't know he was at that low of a bodyfat percentage.

Darryl, I don't know why you're associating intermittent fasting with dieting nonsense. Withstanding any potential physiological benefits, intermittent fasting is useful for making it easier to eat less.

If you eat les you lose weight so the only difference between eating a little less at each meal and IF is you're less reliant on gluconeogenesis for energy if you aren't starving half the time. Basically IF is unnecessary for weight loss although I do concede that it may be a useful strategy for some people.

I have not read any of Clarence Bass' books and have only read a few of his internet articles in the past, but I don't think healthy eating, not dieting, and not counting calories will get most people to his physique. It can get most to 10-12% bodyfat with much patience, but merely tricking your body to eat less usually won't cut it to get a physique like his.

Yet Clarence has shown that it can be done. He got ripped (the title of his old M&F column as I recall) and maintained that leanness for decades on a regime of regular exercise and healthy eating.

I can appreciate Clarence Bass' philosophy and passion for getting people healthy and strong, but much of his stuff is inaccurate in my opinion. For example, he's a big advocate of Carpinelli. But in the health and fitness world, even if you're not correct, you can still get results for people and for yourself by merely doing something.

I agree, Clarence isn't right on everything he says however it's always worth giving his opinion some serious consideration.

Wayne Riddle
07-05-2010, 03:23 AM
Yet Clarence has shown that it can be done. He got ripped (the title of his old M&F column as I recall) and maintained that leanness for decades on a regime of regular exercise and healthy eating.

I've only read a little about Bass, he could also be an outlier due to freaky genetics. I jnew a guy that never worked out, drank a 6 pack every day, was not in a physically demanding job but was built like a bodybuilder.

Darryl Shaw
07-05-2010, 05:29 AM
I've only read a little about Bass, he could also be an outlier due to freaky genetics. I jnew a guy that never worked out, drank a 6 pack every day, was not in a physically demanding job but was built like a bodybuilder.

True, but you could say the same about Martin Berkhan.

Donald Lee
07-05-2010, 07:26 AM
True, but you could say the same about Martin Berkhan.

Except Martin Berkhan grew up fat.

Darryl Shaw
07-06-2010, 03:30 AM
Except Martin Berkhan grew up fat.

I didn't know that......

Do we have to have one of those pointless nature vs. nurture debates now?

Troy Kerr
07-13-2010, 08:31 PM
I have been following a 19 block paleo zone for almost 2 weeks now and have seen great results. I am down from 185 to 180lbs. So far performance has been pretty good. Not sure what "activity level" to use for using a steady state training cycle, just used the calculator off robb wolfs site and it gauged me at 19 blocks so thats what im rolling with.