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Daniel Gam
07-31-2010, 07:47 PM
does supplementing with whey protein help with mass gain if i'm already eating 1g of protein / lb of BW? i'm looking for other alternatives to help gain weight without eating uncomfortably large quantities of solid food.

Donald Lee
07-31-2010, 09:45 PM
Nope.

If you do want to supplement though, a casein/whey mix is better. You can get milk isolate from trueprotein.com.

And, most people only really need to eat about 20% more than normal to gain mass.

Darryl Shaw
08-02-2010, 05:29 AM
The protein requirements of strength athletes in regular training are 1-1.4g/kg/d which is only slightly greater than that of the general population and is easily met by almost any diet that provides adequate calories. Protein in excess of this amount is oxidized and used as fuel so in most cases protein supplements are just an expensive source of calories.

If you're having trouble eating enough to gain weight then peanut butter, honey and banana smoothies (or similar) would be a cheaper and healthier alternative to supplements.

Derek Weaver
08-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Darryl,
Where do you get your values from? I've seen everything from a similar range that you suggest, being closer to .6-1 gram per pound, all the way up to .8 as a minimum up to 1.5 grams/lb (closing in on 3.5 g/kg/day).

The two better sources I've seen are Lyle and Martin. Lyle researched an entire book on the subject of protein intake, and Martin is pretty meticulous with his research and writing on his site, and I'd assume on the book that's coming out someday.

To address the OP though, excess protein intake, regardless of health, tends to show diminishing returns. Through anecdotal evidence only, it seems that most do well around 1 gram/lb, occasionally a touch more.

You will only put on mass/weight through eating more and lifting progressively heavier weights.

Donald Lee
08-02-2010, 03:47 PM
From what I have gathered here and there, as I don't have a formal education in this stuff yet, the technology for determining totally accurate minimal protein requirements or recommended optimal intake is not there yet. Based on the evidence, some people throw out numbers like Darryl's and some people throw out numbers like Lyle's. There isn't much wrong with erring on the side of eating a bit too much protein (if at least 1 g/lb LBM/day is really too much), unless it's costing you a ton of money.

If you really feel like it, you could just test it out on yourself.

Derek Weaver
08-02-2010, 05:49 PM
Agreed. Brad Pilon notes that it's possible to build muscle without large amounts of protein, but still prefers diets a bit higher in protein than the recommended daily amounts we get here in the U.S. from the government.

From an enjoyment factor, as well as satiety, I prefer higher protein intakes. Higher carbs second, enough fat last.

Darryl Shaw
08-03-2010, 05:52 AM
Darryl,
Where do you get your values from? I've seen everything from a similar range that you suggest, being closer to .6-1 gram per pound, all the way up to .8 as a minimum up to 1.5 grams/lb (closing in on 3.5 g/kg/day).

The two better sources I've seen are Lyle and Martin. Lyle researched an entire book on the subject of protein intake, and Martin is pretty meticulous with his research and writing on his site, and I'd assume on the book that's coming out someday.

To address the OP though, excess protein intake, regardless of health, tends to show diminishing returns. Through anecdotal evidence only, it seems that most do well around 1 gram/lb, occasionally a touch more.

You will only put on mass/weight through eating more and lifting progressively heavier weights.

Most of the popular sports nutrition books such as Anita Bean's and Nancy Clark's recommend a protein intake of 1.2-1.8g/kg of LBM/d which covers the needs of pretty much every athlete. The heavyweight texts like Exercise Physiology: Human Bioenergetics and it's Application by Brooks, Fahey and Baldwin, Exercise Physiology: Energy Nutrition and Human Performance by McArdle, Katch and Katch and Clinical Sports Nutrition by Louise Burke give the same basic recommendation but break things down into more detail.

The two studies they all cite on this are Tarnopolsky et al (1988) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3356636) and Tarnopolsky et al(1992) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076) which show that nitrogen balance is maintained in strength/power athletes with protein intakes of 1-1.4g/kg/d and that endurance athletes have the greatest protein requirements.

In practice you don't need to be too concerned with your protein intake though because any reasonably varied diet will contain all the protein you need without the use of supplements providing your calorie intake is adequate. I underlined that last part because it's important to remember that calories are the most critical ingredient in any weight gain program because a negative energy balance will always result in a negative nitrogen balance regardless of how much protein you eat.

Gant Grimes
08-12-2010, 02:02 PM
The correct answer is it depends (on you). The typical baseline is 1g/lb/bw. Don't just titrate up to this, though. A lot of people--myself included--need a BIG increase in protein to move the needle up. Once you're on the move, then you adjust downward.

I'm a lot less concerned with what some skinny researcher who synthesizes studies says than what has worked for me. Be your own experiment. Aim for 1.5g/lb/bw and titrate downward.

The whey-casein thing is also overstated IMO. If you're not getting your protein, shoot some whey and move on.

Dave Van Skike
08-12-2010, 03:16 PM
you know what i just had?...whey protein and oj. YUM.


I think my neck just went up a size.

Allen Yeh
08-13-2010, 04:38 AM
hope it's vanilla......the thought of chocolate and OJ turns my stomach....

Darryl Shaw
08-13-2010, 05:56 AM
In my opinion the recommendation that weightlifters eat 1-1.5gPRO/lb/d, which is 2.2x more protein than required, comes from the supplements industry who rely on people used to thinking in pounds not calculating their protein requirements correctly to sell product.

An athlete weighing a convenient 100kg (220 lbs) for example would have a protein intake of 100-140g/d, which is an amount that can easily be obtained by diet alone, if they based their intake on the correct 1-1.4g/kg/d. That same athlete eating 1-1.5g/lb/d would have a protein intake of 220-330g/d which would be impractical to obtain through diet alone unless they were willing to eat a whole chicken or two per day. Supplements therefore become the only practical way for that athlete to achieve a protein intake of 1-1.5g/lb/d on a daily basis so the supplements industry clearly benefits from people getting mixed up over whether protein intakes should be based on g/lb or g/kg.

Finally, I'm well aware of anecdotal evidence from weightlifters and bodybuilders who claim that eating large amounts of protein and using supplements lead to increased strength and size but protein in excess of 1.8-2g/kg/d is oxidized to provide energy so all those protein supplements are doing really is providing the extra calories required for growth.

John Alston
08-13-2010, 06:56 AM
Depending on the meat you can get 90-130g of protein per pound. If a 100kg/220lb lifter can't eat +2 pounds of meat (upto ~260g) during times of hard training then they aren't trying. Even I can do that and I'm sub 85kg.

Steve Shafley
08-13-2010, 12:19 PM
Pilon massages a lot of shit around to get his lowball number.

Darryl Shaw
08-14-2010, 04:55 AM
Depending on the meat you can get 90-130g of protein per pound. If a 100kg/220lb lifter can't eat +2 pounds of meat (upto ~260g) during times of hard training then they aren't trying. Even I can do that and I'm sub 85kg.

Okay, I concede that you can get 1-1.5gPRO/lb/d from your diet alone if you're prepared to eat 2+ lbs of meat per day but that's still far more protein than you actually need.

Kevin Perry
08-14-2010, 10:35 AM
Depending on the meat you can get 90-130g of protein per pound. If a 100kg/220lb lifter can't eat +2 pounds of meat (upto ~260g) during times of hard training then they aren't trying. Even I can do that and I'm sub 85kg.

stupid comment removed.

Geoffrey Thompson
08-14-2010, 06:46 PM
What? 1lb of meat is easy.

Kevin Perry
08-14-2010, 07:11 PM
What? 1lb of meat is easy.

stupid comment removed again.

Derek Weaver
08-14-2010, 09:54 PM
Yea if your metabolism is geared for it. Otherwise, the majority of people will find eating 2 lbs awfully difficult. You ever try eating one of those 26 oz steaks to try and get it for free at the local grill?...

I don't get this statement. What does metabolism have to do with it? Additonally, eating 2 lbs. at one sitting to try and get a steak for free is different than over an 8 hour window if you're IF'ing, or a 12-16 hour window if you're not.

Eating 2 lbs of meat in a day, if you can afford it, is not hard. The hardest part is cooking it and taking the food with you if you're busy.

To the OP:
My personal opinion on the whole whey protein thing basically comes down to this.

If you're not getting enough food down, shakes are fine. I'm going to disagree with Gant a little here and note that if someone needs a lot of protein to get things rolling, my opinion is they're likely not getting enough food to begin with.

Carbs and fat are protein sparing, meaning if you're in a surplus and eating enough of both, you shouldn't need a huge hit of protein. You will likely need less than if leaning out. As calories go up, protein needs begin to drop. Calories drop, protein requirements go up. If your BMR works out to 2500 calories/day and you're eating 3500 calories per day, the scale will move and you'll get plenty of protein assuming you actually eat dead animal flesh.

Whey is fine, a casein/whey mix, like I think Donald noted is better in most cases. If it doesn't make you break out, milk is likely the best.

Kevin Perry
08-14-2010, 11:26 PM
it was a sarcastic statement.

but really, I can barely stomach a pound of meat I can't imagine most normal people being able to handle that much either.

Blair Lowe
08-15-2010, 04:26 PM
2lbs of meat per day of hard training?

Now your being delusional, even an average joe is going to have a difficult time putting down 1 lbs of meat.

32oz of meat? I can inhale 1/2 to 3/4lb of lunch meat in one sitting and I'm possibly under 170 now.

Drink 1/2 gallon of milk a day (which is easy with 4 glasses of 16oz milk-1 in the morn and before bed and 2 during the day).

My biggest obstacle is preparing and affording that much meat. I can eat a shitload of meatballs but since that's ground meat, it's not all just protein.

John Alston
08-16-2010, 01:13 PM
Just had +1lb of chicken thighs. No problems.

Gant Grimes
08-16-2010, 01:54 PM
I'm going to disagree with Gant a little here and note that if someone needs a lot of protein to get things rolling, my opinion is they're likely not getting enough food to begin with.

What's there to disagree with? I said "a lot of people--myself included." Let's put the white papers down and talk real people. My experience comes from several gaining cycles in my lifetime, including one a year ago where I moved from 195 to 230 in a few months. I'm also including the guys I train with who are already 200+ and need to move up. When you're starting with big, strong guys and try to make them bigger or stronger, adding 10-20g protein per day won't cut it. Adding 50-70 grams a day is more helpful (that's only adding 1/2 - 2/3 pounds of meat).

I still think casein is way overrated. If you're trying to gain and you want to some timed-release crap, drink whey post workout, eat .75 lb. chicken breast 30 minutes after that, and eat a 1/2 pound burger and a couple slices of meat lover's pizza an hour or two after that.

Blair Lowe
08-16-2010, 02:49 PM
I've noticed for a long while or got into a pattern of that I would take my whey and/or snack post workout (perhaps a bit of fruit, fishoil) and then end up hungry 45m-1h later and eat a general meal. My friend has the same habit by coincidence and I've heard a lot of people do this as well.

Really the PWO would just get me back to the point I could start coaching my classes but I would find I would need to eat something ASAP after about an hour.

Derek Weaver
08-16-2010, 03:17 PM
What's there to disagree with? I said "a lot of people--myself included." Let's put the white papers down and talk real people. My experience comes from several gaining cycles in my lifetime, including one a year ago where I moved from 195 to 230 in a few months. I'm also including the guys I train with who are already 200+ and need to move up. When you're starting with big, strong guys and try to make them bigger or stronger, adding 10-20g protein per day won't cut it. Adding 50-70 grams a day is more helpful (that's only adding 1/2 - 2/3 pounds of meat).

I still think casein is way overrated. If you're trying to gain and you want to some timed-release crap, drink whey post workout, eat .75 lb. chicken breast 30 minutes after that, and eat a 1/2 pound burger and a couple slices of meat lover's pizza an hour or two after that.

Fair enough, I think in hindsight I was more or less picking on semantics.

I have a tendency to get caught in the nuances of food/nutrition, primarily because I enjoy it.

Geoffrey Thompson
08-16-2010, 06:13 PM
I still think casein is way overrated. If you're trying to gain and you want to some timed-release crap, drink whey post workout, eat .75 lb. chicken breast 30 minutes after that, and eat a 1/2 pound burger and a couple slices of meat lover's pizza an hour or two after that.
That definitely sounds like birthday party.

Darryl Shaw
08-17-2010, 05:32 AM
What's there to disagree with? I said "a lot of people--myself included." Let's put the white papers down and talk real people. My experience comes from several gaining cycles in my lifetime, including one a year ago where I moved from 195 to 230 in a few months. I'm also including the guys I train with who are already 200+ and need to move up. When you're starting with big, strong guys and try to make them bigger or stronger, adding 10-20g protein per day won't cut it. Adding 50-70 grams a day is more helpful (that's only adding 1/2 - 2/3 pounds of meat).

I still think casein is way overrated. If you're trying to gain and you want to some timed-release crap, drink whey post workout, eat .75 lb. chicken breast 30 minutes after that, and eat a 1/2 pound burger and a couple slices of meat lover's pizza an hour or two after that.

I think you're missing the point Derek and I are trying to make here. Sure adding 1/2 - 2/3 lbs of meat to a eucaloric diet will result in weight gain, to deny that would be stupid. However as protein in excess of 1.8-2g/kg/d is oxidized to provide energy all that additional meat is doing really is providing the extra calories required for growth. In other words if your diet already provided sufficent protein you'd get exactly the same results, at least in terms of weight gained, if you met your increased caloric needs with Twinkies or table sugar.

Allen Yeh
08-17-2010, 07:07 AM
I think you're missing the point Derek and I are trying to make here. Sure adding 1/2 - 2/3 lbs of meat to a eucaloric diet will result in weight gain, to deny that would be stupid. However as protein in excess of 1.8-2g/kg/d is oxidized to provide energy all that additional meat is doing really is providing the extra calories required for growth. In other words if your diet already provided sufficent protein you'd get exactly the same results, at least in terms of weight gained, if you met your increased caloric needs with Twinkies or table sugar.

If someone ate the equivalent of 400 calories of sugar rather than 400 calories chicken....assuming that they already their protein needs for the day in your opinion...they would get the same results?

Darryl Shaw
08-17-2010, 07:41 AM
If someone ate the equivalent of 400 calories of sugar rather than 400 calories chicken....assuming that they already their protein needs for the day in your opinion...they would get the same results?

The different thermic effects of protein and carbohydrate would make a small difference, a few grams perhaps, but yes, for all practical purposes the change in body mass would be the same.

Derek Weaver
08-17-2010, 05:33 PM
I think you're missing the point Derek and I are trying to make here. Sure adding 1/2 - 2/3 lbs of meat to a eucaloric diet will result in weight gain, to deny that would be stupid. However as protein in excess of 1.8-2g/kg/d is oxidized to provide energy all that additional meat is doing really is providing the extra calories required for growth. In other words if your diet already provided sufficent protein you'd get exactly the same results, at least in terms of weight gained, if you met your increased caloric needs with Twinkies or table sugar.

I think you and I are on more common ground that I had previously realized.

Ideas on enough protein may be a little different, but I just realized that 2g/kg/d is damn near to 1g/lb/day.

I would still suggest people aim for a little more protein, cause they'll likely end up lower than their goal. Track carbs as necessary. Shoot for less fat, as passive over-consumption is a legit issue, and actual fat needs are quite low with the exception of n-3 intake. It's not hard to get a substantial amount of fat in the diet from protein sources alone.

John Alston
08-17-2010, 06:15 PM
The different thermic effects of protein and carbohydrate would make a small difference, a few grams perhaps, so yes, for all practical purposes the change in body mass would be the same.

This fails the sniff test.

Derek Weaver
08-17-2010, 06:53 PM
This fails the sniff test.

How so?

John Alston
08-17-2010, 07:25 PM
Look at what you were responding to. Adding x amount of calories of sugar vs x amount of calories via [healthy protein].
So adding extra crap is the same as adding extra good for your stuff? Not so likely.

Derek Weaver
08-17-2010, 09:21 PM
In general, in a healthy individual, the energy balance equation holds true.

Each nutrient has a slightly different thermic effect, but his statement is generally accurate.

The key term is healthy individual.

Donald Lee
08-17-2010, 10:41 PM
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/hormonal-responses-to-a-fast-food-meal-compared-with-nutritionally-comparable-meals-of-different-composition-research-review.html

Justin Arnold
08-17-2010, 11:35 PM
What about sugar (fructose) vs protein's effect on the liver?


Wouldn't that much sugar more quickly make a healthy individual less healthy than one taking in the same calories in protein?

Derek Weaver
08-18-2010, 01:00 AM
I don't think anyone is talking about adding 100 grams of straight fructose. That's awful hard to do without hitting up HFCS. Nobody would say that's a good idea. Honestly, I would say that such an example holds little to no application to the discussion. Even if the hypothetical sugar in this discussion were to be sucrose, you'd still get 50 grams of fructose, and 50 grams of fructose making up the 400 calories. If I'm reading this right that would fill, at most half of the potential space that the liver has for glycogen, assuming a depleted liver:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen

Sugars in fruits: http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/fruits_table.html

Just a quick glance at that table shows that most fruits are ~50% fructose, with glucose making up the remainder. Except for maltose, which I admit I have no knowledge of at all.

Regardless, to answer the question. I'd be shocked if a single occurence, or even intermittent occurrences of such high fructose consumption would cause any serious negative affects on health.

By the way, insomnia sucks and leads to discussions on sugar consumption at odd hours. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Darryl Shaw
08-18-2010, 03:55 AM
Look at what you were responding to. Adding x amount of calories of sugar vs x amount of calories via [healthy protein].
So adding extra crap is the same as adding extra good for your stuff? Not so likely.

I'm not suggesting that anyone swap whole foods of any kind for table sugar. I'm just using sugar to make the point that once protein requirements have been met additional protein is nothing more than a source of calories.

Allen Yeh
08-18-2010, 04:24 AM
What I was saying is that it seems silly to me that Darryl was advocating the "calorie is a calorie" idea after meeting 1.8/2g/kg of protein. Especially if you are talking about on a daily basis and not just a one shot deal.

So if a 200 lb guy was training hard and met his protein needs with 164 grams of protein. which is 1.8g per kg. I can't possibly see him getting the same results as adding 400 calories from a chicken breast as adding 400 calories of straight up sugar. Especially if we are talking about for months on end. This is assuming the rest of his diet stays the same and the only thing is changing is taking away his extra protein and adding in 400 calories from sugar.

Darryl Shaw
08-18-2010, 05:25 AM
What I was saying is that it seems silly to me that Darryl was advocating the "calorie is a calorie" idea after meeting 1.8/2g/kg of protein. Especially if you are talking about on a daily basis and not just a one shot deal.

So if a 200 lb guy was training hard and met his protein needs with 164 grams of protein. which is 1.8g per kg. I can't possibly see him getting the same results as adding 400 calories from a chicken breast as adding 400 calories of straight up sugar. Especially if we are talking about for months on end. This is assuming the rest of his diet stays the same and the only thing is changing is taking away his extra protein and adding in 400 calories from sugar.

It may seem silly but as far as body mass is concerned a calorie is a calorie so adding 400 kcals of either chicken or table sugar to a eucaloric diet that already meets requirements for essential nutrients, which includes protein of course, will result in a near identical increase in body mass.

Darryl Shaw
08-18-2010, 05:43 AM
What about sugar (fructose) vs protein's effect on the liver?


Wouldn't that much sugar more quickly make a healthy individual less healthy than one taking in the same calories in protein?

Aside from tooth decay and sligthly looser stools 100g of fructose eaten over the course of the day, preferably from fruit, as part of a eucaloric diet won't cause a healthy adult any serious health problems. Eating 100g of pure fructose in a single sitting on the other hand....... well, if you want to try it all I'll say is make sure you've got plenty of toilet paper in the house and the rest of the day free.

John Alston
08-18-2010, 05:51 AM
I am with Allen on this. Esp since I agree with the anecdotal than increasing protein above the need level of 1g - 1lb can have good effects based on my own exp.

Gant Grimes
08-18-2010, 09:38 AM
What I was saying is that it seems silly to me that Darryl was advocating the "calorie is a calorie" idea after meeting 1.8/2g/kg of protein. Especially if you are talking about on a daily basis and not just a one shot deal.

So if a 200 lb guy was training hard and met his protein needs with 164 grams of protein. which is 1.8g per kg. I can't possibly see him getting the same results as adding 400 calories from a chicken breast as adding 400 calories of straight up sugar. Especially if we are talking about for months on end. This is assuming the rest of his diet stays the same and the only thing is changing is taking away his extra protein and adding in 400 calories from sugar.

The skinny guys in extra medium lab coats disagree with you, Allen.

Again, no offense to anyone, but sitting at 220, guys my size and bigger aren't going to get it done with 1.8g/kg. I wish it were not so, as it would be much cheaper.

John Alston
08-18-2010, 10:14 AM
As does skinny Martin leangains, eating +1lb of beef after a workout. I shouldn't say skinny, since he can pull close to 600...

Paul Epstein
09-16-2010, 12:54 AM
The protein requirements of strength athletes in regular training are 1-1.4g/kg/d which is only slightly greater than that of the general population and is easily met by almost any diet that provides adequate calories.

However as protein in excess of 1.8-2g/kg/d is oxidized to provide energy all that additional meat is doing really is providing the extra calories required for growth.

im confused by the discrepancy here. you say that only 1.4g/kg/d is required but then excess above 2g/kg/d is simply used as excess calories...

what happens between 1.4 to 2 g/kg/d?

John Alston
09-16-2010, 06:14 AM
That mediocre level encouraged mediocre results.

Darryl Shaw
09-17-2010, 03:24 AM
im confused by the discrepancy here. you say that only 1.4g/kg/d is required but then excess above 2g/kg/d is simply used as excess calories...

what happens between 1.4 to 2 g/kg/d?

There is no discrepancy, protein in excess of requirements is oxidised to provide energy.

If for example a bodybuilder or strength/power athlete ate 1.6gPRO/kg/d when they only required 1.2g/kg/d then 0.4g/kg/d of protein would be broken down to provide energy.

I think what you're missing here though is that people such as elite endurance athletes, pregnant or lactating women, children/teenagers, the elderly, people with low energy intakes etc may require up to 2gPRO/kg/d which is far in excess of what any bodybuilder or strength/power athlete in regular training would need.

Jack Alan
03-19-2012, 11:22 PM
Protein is the basic key to maintain health and get weight. Protein can be get from many foods items like fruits, vegetables, meat, fish and chicken etc.
these are help full to get weight according to your desire.

Adrian Lloyd
07-12-2012, 02:10 AM
I have heard that Whey Protein is quite a good supplement in building mass. But if you take my advice then i may suggest you to try Creatine supplement in developing a good stamina in addition to building a good muscle.

Many people have benefited from this supplement and you must also try this.

Hall James
07-31-2013, 11:33 PM
Hi Daniel,
Whey proteins is great to lose and maintain weight, improve immunity system and improves memory. Whey protein helps in reducing elevated blood pressure, improves mood in stressful situations and to sooth stress.

David Sharad
11-16-2013, 05:56 AM
Whey protein powder is mostly used in bodybuilding. It include vitamins, mineral, nutrients, iron and protein that are good to improve fitness, boost energy, build stamina, make strong muscles and improve physical performance.